back to article Microsoft promises Metro developers 'fame and fortune'

With the official launch of Windows 8 just a few months away, Microsoft has kicked off a new incentive program that promises developers "fame and fortune" if they build Metro-style apps for the new OS. The program, hosted on Microsoft's Generation App website, follows on from an earlier, similar initiative for Windows Phone. …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.
  1. LordBrian
    Facepalm

    Really !!!

    More like Dime and Torture.....

    If it's anything like the App Hub which is the worst developer portal ever created, my grandmother could have done a better job and she's been dead 10 years.

    1. Kebabbert

      Re: Really !!!

      Developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, ....

      ;o)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Facepalm

      Re: Really !!!

      Worst developer portal ever? Spoken like someone who's never used RIM's dev site. Unless clicking 'save' on your project's multipage information form -actually- submits for two-to-three-week-delayed human revier -and locks it from any change until then-, and unless the 'support request' description form erases itself when the textbox loses focus, and unless the commandline code signing tool deletes your entire hard drive, root on down, if you fail to put a correct directory name when executing the program, then it is -not- the worst portal ever.

      And yes, those are all true, and are only a sample. Getting their code signing to work was much more difficult than learning OOP and low-level graphics coding in AS3.

  2. jim 45

    The backup for a claim about a "largely negative" response to Metro - a link to an article the Reg ran back in March - wasn't too convincing. I find the response to be very positive, at least among people who've actually used it.

    It seems like technology journalists and insiders no longer want anything genuinely new and different; because it's more fun to deride and ridicule it. Is that really how we make progress?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Who are all these people you've spoken to? Anyone can give anecdotes about all the people they know.

      Nobody is saying that metro is a bad OS for a touch screen device, they are just saying that it is a huge step backwards for the vast majority of Windows users who will be using it on a laptop or desktop.

      1. Spearchucker Jones
        Windows

        Jim hasn't spoken to me, but I'm on of them. There are a load I've spoken to who also love it. And that's not just at work (which is a Mac house). And most have only used the PC version - many will trek across campus to see it on my tablet.

        Yeah, that's anecdotal. But check me comment history to see how sensitive the Reg community (which is predominantly composed of Fandroids[1]) is to any positive comments on W8. Or WP7.

        [1] My opinion is based entirely on the number of negative comments from Fandroids (winner) v. those from the Church of Jobs v. those from the Microsoft crowd.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          > many will trek across campus to see it on my tablet.

          Bloody students. Get a job.

          1. hplasm
            Happy

            Bloody stdents.

            Get a Job's product.

            (I jest!)

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            many will trek across campus to see it on my tablet.

            TABLET! YES!

            PC no! Metro made me puke

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Angel

            @AC 20:21

            "Bloody students. Get a job."

            Yeah! What's up with these 'students' thinking that walking across a campus to acquire new but not directly-practically-useful information is a good idea! The nerve!

            Clearly, students should work enough that any activity not directly related to immediate classwork is impossible - anything less and they're lazy!

            ...assuming I'm not falling prey to a pop-culture in-joke I'm not privy to, wherein "Bloody students. Get a job." is a catch-phrase. If that's -not- the case, I'll retain my assertion that whoever said it stumbled over from the Daily Mail in a drunken stupor.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          many will trek across campus to see it on my tablet

          I hope it's not too much of a trek as I'm assuming that will be an x86 tablet and the battery life will be about the length of time it takes to fry an egg on the back. Plus it'll be really heavy for you to hold while they are trekking over

        3. h4rm0ny

          Count another one here who both likes Metro and has had positive reactions from those that I've shown it to. I didn't like it at first but I actually did some metrics counting up how many clicks and careful positioning it took me to do something in Metro and how long in Windows 7 and Metro is typically the same or fewer. Seriously. Odd exceptions such as turning on a VPN take slightly longer, but overall the experience is quicker.

          Yet some people genuinely love to hate. I was at a presentation on Server 2012 recently. After listing all the cool things in Server 2012, the presenter then opened up Win8 in a VM and spent 15 minutes ranting about how they had to position the mouse in a 40x40 pixel area to get to the Metro screen or had to click to expand the page to get the control panel. But you don't. To get the Metro page, you just swing the mouse pointer down to the lowest left part of the screen. You don't have to carefully position anything, you just drag it to the bottom left as far as it will go - which is technically even easier than positioning it on a Start menu that you can see. Control panel? Just hit Windows key and type 'co', it's the first in the list. I pointed this out to the presenter afterwards and turns out they actually knew about both of these things. But that wouldn't have given the satisfaction of an excited 15 minute rant and got the same laughs from the audience.

          Whilst not everyone is going to like Metro, some people actually get enjoyment from hating it. Which is weird.

          1. Blitterbug
            Happy

            some people genuinely love to hate...

            Well argued, h4rm0ny but ultimately irrelevant, given the sheer number of hardcore MS devs (myself included) who *do* give things a fair go. For instance, not all of us thought Vista was a steaming pile. At first, sure - it was badly broken. But so was XP in 2001 (peeps have short memories), with hideous driver issues and 'orrible USB 1.0 support, etc. Now both XP & Vista are well-sorted.

            I liked bothXP & Vista from the start - at least, I liked the potential and am glad I persevered against 'the tide' of h8t0rs (XP was loathed amongst the gaming fraternity, for example, as well as businesses).

            Win8 is another thing entirely. It's changed me from a happy excited kiddy down to the level of a fevered ranter. And this is after installing both previews on several different bits of kit. Just the fact that I can't boot to my desktop is enough to piss me right the hell off. I don't care about Metro per se, as long as it get's the feck out of the way when I don't want it!

            But apparently that's too much to ask. Additionally, complaining about this coiler of serpentine proportions labels me and like-minded techies as the dreaded 'hater', or even a Macolyte. Please accept that there are competent professional opinions out there that differ from yours without having axes to grind or being luddite in origin!

            1. jim 45

              Re: some people genuinely love to hate...

              "Just the fact that I can't boot to my desktop is enough to piss me right the hell off. I don't care about Metro per se, as long as it get's the feck out of the way when I don't want it!

              Bitterbug - please. Take a deep breath and reason with me for a moment. Win8 boots (faster than Win7) to a Start screen which you hate. I get that. But see that tile labeled "Desktop". Click it, my friend. There you are- it's the 90s again, that comfortable familiar desktop for you to litter with countless little indistinguishable icons, however you like.

              Exactly one click stands between you and this retro Nirvana.

              I understand - sort of - the viewpoint of corporate IT people who say they'd be deluged with calls from clueless users users, panicked by the Start screen, unable to find their way back to earth. For those purposes, I expect that MS will provide a way to set up the system to boot to the Desktop. They currently say they won't, but I bet they will.

              Embrace change. Let your cheese be moved. It's liberating.

              1. Blitterbug
                Unhappy

                Re: Take a deep breath ...

                Ok - done that...

                Hasn't helped! Incidentally those 3 posts were lumped together for no reason I can fathom - I replied to 3 different posts and ended up looking like a rabid dog. Ah well!

                You make a good point about the boot speed. Absolutely love it. But the HTML5 / JScript mess that looks so nice on a tablet (I do admid that) now prevents my fastest rigs from displaying a desktop on booting. My beef is that the desktop - the core of the system - is relegated to nothing more than an incidental app. As in: 'Oh, you're an old git from the Before Times? Don't worry, sir, just click the little box and there you go...'

                1. jim 45

                  Re: Take a deep breath ...

                  It's wonderful on a phone, will be great on a tablet, and is nice but also a bit weird on the desktop. I think what people aren't getting is that soon the average person will be using a tablet for everything. And MS wants to be in on that, and doesn't want to be stuck 2 branches of Windows, one for the tablet and one for the desktop. And neither do users, developers, OEMS or support people .

                  So I think they're doing what they have to do - if you think about it, what choice do they have? The traditional desktop is still there and Windows will continue to be a Thing With Two Heads for years to come.

                  1. Blitterbug
                    Happy

                    Re: So I think they're doing what they have to do...

                    I absolutely get that. Have spent a lot of time wondering why it is how it is, and can see a need for this, *up to a point*. I would 'fix' things with a registry value named 'DesktopBoot' that is 0 by default, added to,say, the good ol' key below:

                    HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\System

                    Incidentally, an earlier comment of yours about 90s-style icon filled desktops sounded as if you don't actually use / like Windows? Seeing as it is where one actually produces work (Win8 metro nonsense aside), it's a place that's hard to avoid! If it's just the proliferation of random shite that offends you, use a dock! Slight nod to St Steve there, perhaps, but my desktop is a Clean Machine.

                    And I like to boot to it!! Aw, but...

                    1. jim 45

                      Re: So I think they're doing what they have to do...

                      Do I use/like Windows? I wrote software for Windows for over 20 years, and DOS before that. The word "Use" doesn't even begin.... :-)

                      Maybe older guys tend to like Metro because we're s-o-o-o-o ready for a change.

                      They mightl eventually give us a boot-to-desktop Registry key, but during the Win8 rollout they want to be sure that when people go into the stores, Win8 looks exactly the same on the phones, tablets, notebooks, desktops, and the Surfaces.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            > I was at a presentation on Server 2012 recently.

            I was at an orgy recently, and I didn't hear a single person there say how they disagreed with group sex.

          3. Whitespace

            Just hit Windows key and type 'co'

            Ahh yes - I remember the days when Linux haters said the problem with linux is all those obscure keyboard commands.

            "Just hit Windows key and type 'co'" is no less obscure than many linux commands but because it is Windows it is suddenly easy to learn and highly convenient.

            Windows is now only 20 -30 years behind the competition. Please do try to keep up.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Just hit Windows key and type 'co'

              So, you argue that Windows is similar to the first mac OS, or to C64's DOS? Seriously?

              Hyperbole makes you look like the stupidest person in the ENTIRE WORLD EVER.

              Also, windows-co makes a hell of a lot more sense than VI's ":qa!" for 'save and exit', or where doing something like hitting a colon at the wrong time will start you deleting every other line of text but only when you use 'f' in a personal pronoun, or whatever the fuck. And it's not the *only option*. I mean, Christ on crutches, even the names of stuff - from a newbie's perspective, what makes more sense for a writing program: 'Notepad' or 'vim'? Would a normal person think he should search, or grep? delete or rm? How does it make sense that a single misplaced character can essentially instantly wipe your entire system with no confirmation while performing an operation which seemingly has nothing to do with deleting stuff?

              Arguing that *anything* can trump esoteric - or even prosaic - UNIX commands for sheer obscurity and absurdity is a losing proposition - particularly when there are perfectly rational ways you could state your case in a pointless and never-ending argument.

              Of course, when your case is that Windows 7 is functionally equivalent to an Apple Dos 3.2, all of that is most likely academic. As is the situation even were you to have an airtight argument, the widespread and almost biblical arrogance of those fighting for Linux is likely to chase off anyone who might otherwise be convinced.

      2. Medium Dave
        Windows

        Anecdotes about people you know...

        Eveyone I've know thinks it's a steaming pile. That's a mix of Windows, Apple and Linux users, and it's actually quite nice to see something that we can all agree on without having to settle matters with a knife-fight.

    2. Wade Burchette
      Facepalm

      I keep reading about people who say that those who haven't used Metro are the ones who hate it. Well, I'm here to tell you that ain't true. I tried Metro, I gave it an honest go, and I hate it. The fact is just because it is new and well-researched doesn't mean it is better. You do not replace something that is well-known, works well and will work well for a long time, and is easy to use with something new. I will admit adding the desktop button on the latest release candidate was a good touch. But the Metro UI idea, while good on a phone or tablet, is not good on a desktop or laptop.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        There's a word for those folks who readily accuse bashers of Metro of never giving it a try...

        Astroturfers.

        It's the same shaming language and 'shoot the messenger' tactic: you're a hypocrite, therefore your opinions count for nothing. Nyeh-nyeh-nee-boo-boo, I'm not listening to you!

        Ergo, there's a new religion in Redmond: it's the religion of 'Metro, Metro, Metro'. Ballmer is the LORD, and Sinofsky is His prophet. Thou shalt not blaspheme the live tiles.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: There's a word for those folks who readily accuse bashers of Metro of never giving it a try...

          "There's a word for those folks who readily accuse bashers of Metro of never giving it a try... It's the same shaming language and 'shoot the messenger' tactic: you're a hypocrite, therefore your opinions count for nothing."

          I think that bashing someone for slating something they've never tried isn't so much saying, "you're a hypocrite, therefore your opinions count for nothing", but, "you don't have any idea what you're talking about, therefore your opinions count for nothing".

          They're different things.

      2. Peter Johnstone
        Thumb Up

        Me too

        I tried two versions of the developer previews and hated it. That experience played a part in my decision to switch to the mac, that and that and the fact that I'd been plain around with a mackintosh for a while.

        Apple launchpad is how metro should have been implemented on the desktop OS.

        Before I get accused of being a fanboy: I've still got 5 windows machines at home, with one dual booting with Fedora Linux. Was also an Amiga user for years prior to switching to Windows. I have an android tablet and my wife has a blackberry playbook. Chose android over the iPad due to Jobs' refusal to allow flash anywhere near it; when I buy a computing device, I'd like to decide what I install thank you very much.

    3. fung0

      jim 45 said: "It seems like technology journalists and insiders no longer want anything genuinely new and different; because it's more fun to deride and ridicule it."

      The people who are satisfied with "new and different" regardless of whether it's also "better" are the same ones who are satisfied with "bright, shiny"...

      1. jim 45

        amazing

        As someone who's been in the computer biz since the 70s, it amazes me how conservative it's become. Call me crazy but I still like what's bright, shiny and new. Maybe I won't end up "satisfied" with it in the long run. But just give it to me anyway - I'll decide for myself after trying it for a while.

        Metro is quite innovative in terms of clean presentation, a commitment to simplicity, design and typography, as well as being a notably smooth and responsive implemtation. I'm not going to panic because I can't find "Control Panel" in the old familiar location.

        1. nematoad Silver badge
          Unhappy

          Re: amazing

          "I'm not going to panic because I can't find "Control Panel" in the old familiar location."

          You might if the UI is getting in the way of getting your work done. Don't forget, not everyone looks on PCs with interest in how it all fits together. For a lot of people it's a tool to do their real job. Just as if someone was to redesign a hammer. OK, it might be more pleasing to look at but if it does not hammer in the nails as well as the old design then you are going to get complaints.

          PCs and the OS are a means to an end, not the end itself.

          1. Giles Jones Gold badge

            Re: amazing

            There seems to be a modern take on the OS which says it must be in your face and telling you what is going on in your email box, what people are saying on twitter and so on.

            The old school opinion was that the OS and the GUI should be fairly minimal to let you focus on doing things with it.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: amazing

          Nobody is doubting its visual design, slickness and so on.

          Its usability is rather poor unless you're using a tablet. It is also dumbing down the OS which is fine on a cut down tablet but on a desktop machine?

          An OS is supposed to not get in your way or annoy you, Windows has tended to annoy but they fixed that with Windows 7. But now the annoyance factor will be increased with all the tiles telling you what is going on, it will be pretty distracting at work.

          1. dajames Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: amazing

            An OS is supposed to not get in your way or annoy you,

            Exactly ... the clue is in the name: "Windows". You don't look at (architectural) windows, you look though them -- the appearance of the window itself is relatively unimportant so long as you can see through it easily.

            Some OS vendors might learn a lesson or two there ...

        3. Anonymous Coward
          WTF?

          Re: amazing

          "it amazes me how conservative it's become. Call me crazy but I still like what's bright, shiny and new"

          Good for you. For those of us who actually use a computer to do work and don't want the OS to get in the way of productivity but changing everything "bright shiny and new" is just what we don't want. A computer is a tool , if you want a toy go to toys-r-us or buy an iPad. When I buy a new car I don't expect the steering wheel on the back seat and the pedals on the root just because some hipster designer thought it would look "cool" simply because it was different.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: amazing

            @Boltar - I seem to remember that exact argument being used during the transition from command line to GUI. Many times.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              WTF?

              Re: amazing

              "@Boltar - I seem to remember that exact argument being used during the transition from command line to GUI. Many times."

              What transition? I still use the unix command line on a daily basis. I also use a GUI. They are different methods of interacting with a computer - complex input , simple output vs simple input , complex output respectively. The metro interface OTOH seems to have left any notion of input at the door as far as desktops are concerned and just gone with Ooooh , Shiny!

            2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              Re: amazing

              Yeah, but a paradigm shift of that nature was relatively small in terms of numbers of users and took quite a number of years to filter through the "system". Not only that, but you could still buy DOS when the GUI first came along, you could quite happily ignore the GUI and still run moder, newly released/developed software.

              Now, the installed userbase is multiple orders of magnitude greater and if MS previous track record is anything to go by, it'll be Metro or change OS completely.

              When Win3.0/1 came along, that was most users intro to GUIs, often their introduction to computers. '95 was quite a significant shift but still fairly familier. '98, ME, XP and even Vista have been step changes which an ever growing userbase has coped with quite well with minimal to no re-training required. Metro is a paradigm shift almost of the same order as the command line to GUI shift and I suspect will account for significant training costs or, at worst, drops in production levels at the coalface.

              One has to bear in mind that most users work in SMEs not big enterprise.

          2. jim 45

            Re: amazing

            " For those of us who actually use a computer to do work ..."

            Too funny. I wrote software for 30 years, mostly for Windows, occasionally for Mac. I am not seeing how Metro would be an impediment to that work in any way. I was able to find the steering wheel, it's actually in the front seat, just square now instead of round :-)

            1. Wensleydale Cheese
              Happy

              Re: amazing

              @jim 45

              "I was able to find the steering wheel, it's actually in the front seat, just square now instead of round :-)"

              LOL! Memories of the Austin Allegro which 'featured a quartic" steering wheel, which was rectangular, with rounded sides'..

        4. Blitterbug
          Happy

          Re: As someone who's been in the computer biz since the 70s

          Jim, seriously - Not only have we tried it, many of us *wanted* to like it. And many of us have also 'been in the computer biz since the 70s'. Furthermore, El Reg is just *one* online resource of many (Ars, etc) carrying similar stories and comments from concerned would-be users.

          Please don't be so surprised - it's almost as if you haven't been following the 'story so far' as it has developed online. Which I'm sure isn't the case...

    4. Blitterbug
      Unhappy

      I find the response to be very positive...

      What. Have. You. Been. Reading.

  3. This post has been deleted by its author

  4. Doug 3

    really? special access to exclusive development documentations? sign me up

    if you think they are holding back documentation for developers just so they can pay off some devs looking for freebies you are a sucker and the one they are looking for.

    as for getting access to their "engineers", I've been there and it wasn't pretty but the customer really felt important that a real "Microsoft employee" was on the phone with them. If the hundreds of millions spent on advertising Windows Mobile 6.5 was effective(it was not ) then there might be a chance of some Metro app paying customers but with even more millions spent on advertising Windows Phone 7 and still nothing but single digit market share, it's like becoming a RIM developer. Echos heard in a big empty room.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: really? special access to exclusive development documentations? sign me up

      If Windows Phone 8 or the new Blackberry manage, say, one twenty-fifth of Apple's market share but have say, one thousandth of the developers, then you are perhaps more likely as a developer to find success targeting the lesser-used platform.

      1. jim 45

        Re: really? special access to exclusive development documentations? sign me up

        Yes. And few people seem to grasp this point. There is also the fact that nw WP8 users won't have 800 apps already and will be ready to buy.

        Your chances of actually making some money, vs. just acquiring coffee-shop coolness, are probably much greater on WP8.

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge

          Making some money?

          That's probably true, if Microsoft like you they might pay you to develop something.

          If yours is the only one of a useful type of application in the WP8 store then it might do pretty well, at least in the first few months after WP8 launches.

          However, you won't be getting a 'huge hit' like Rovio managed and it would be stupid to bet your business on WP8 alone.

    2. Shagbag
      Joke

      Re: really? special access to exclusive development documentations? sign me up

      "it's like becoming a RIM developer"

      or just getting 'rimmed'.

    3. Shonko Kid
      WTF?

      what do they mean 'exclusive'?

      I hope it's 'exclusive' as in 'comes with a signed copy and a goody bag', rather than 'see the APIs we're not letting other devs see'

      Dear SteveB, one of those is cool, the other bad. Hint: the first option is cool.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This sounds so familiar

    Wait, it was when WP7 was launched.

    What does WP and the Titanic have in common

    Both were suppose to be technical marvels of their time and quickly sank out of site soon after they were launched.

    1. Shagbag

      Re: This sounds so familiar

      I've got a WinPho 7 and I resemble that remark. While I like Metro, WinPho 7 is $hyte. It's the Mother of All $hyte. Now they want to 'bronze' the desktop with it. I expect t won't be the only quarterly loss MS will be experiencing.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Trollface

    Fortune ?

    Now, this is a bit of a troll but also a somewhat seriously meant post.

    For the first time since MS went onto the stock market (around 1986) did they manage to book a loss of approx. 492 million dollar. The year before they managed to get a profit of 5,9 billion dollars. Sure; it could be due to investments, it could be due to lower sale rates.

    Or is it possible that many people are bailing out with the idea of Metro ahead?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Fortune ?

      No. They simply wrote off one bad investment to clear the decks for what they hope will be impressive financials in 2013 post 8 series launch.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Fortune ?

      could be any thing, but i'm sitting here in france, and it sucks cockerel here too. It's a toy.

      I'm sitting with win 7, until i retire if i have to. metro is vile for pcs. i've used the release since new, and it's just entrenching my opinion. i won't buy another box until start menu appears and metro is switch offable at install.

      crap doesn't begin to describe its effect on productivity.

      1. Tim Bergel

        Re: Fortune ?

        "i won't buy another box until start menu appears and metro is switch offable at install"

        Which of course is exactly what will happen. Eventually.

        Win 8 is obviously going to be another Vista and MS will waste a huge amount of time and money telling us that it's great and we will all ignore them and about 2 years down the line they will come up with something (Win 9? Guess not - it's about time for them to change to a new naming scheme, no?) that allows you to completely conceal the Metro section and we will all ask ourselves why they could not have done this with Win 8...

        I'm past caring really, but I'm certainly going to stick with Win 7 (& XP) on the desktop.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Metro just won't work for everyone

          I showed our MS Account Manager our high-end users - staff with over 9.2 million pixels of desktop real estate and running up to a dozen apps...

          Me: How exactly would these people do their jobs on full screen metro apps?

          Him: Well, obviously it looks like you have a requirement for a more traditional Desktop...

          Me: That you disabled in the last Win8 release

          Him: ........

          Me: So why would I move away from Win7?

          Him: ........

          1. Jess--

            Re: Metro just won't work for everyone

            now I feel inadequate running my measly 6.2 million pixels

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    cold hard cash

    As with wp7 we can expect Microsoft to spend huge sums on advertising and promotion of windows 8. Meanwhile smaller businesses with modestly successful windows applications (say £100k plus a year) are expected to risk a couple of years profits on metro app versions. Not gonna happen with my clients. We know how to write metro apps and don't need hand holding by relatively inexperienced Microsoft consultants. If Microsoft really want apps for windows store why not divert some of the marketing funds into helping with up front development costs of proven products from proven developers in targeted market sectors. Back of an envelope about £100-200 million or so would do the job of transforming much of the general windows software market. This freebies for students and wannabes misses the point.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: cold hard cash

      If you have to pay (bribe? a matter of semantics) developers to code apps for your platform, perhaps your platform isn't that impressive in the first place.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: cold hard cash

        Its simply market share/size. Real businesses need more than technical merit to determine investment. OSX is too small in many market sectors to be worth the bother. Likewise desktop Linux. Same may be true of metro/windows store at least for a couple of years however impressive metro is. Or not. My point was ads on tv versus breaking the chicken and egg contradiction and avoiding apples fail in drawing developers to OSX.

  8. E 2
    FAIL

    M$, Gnome 3, Ubuntu's version, etc, etc, etc.

    What works well on a 4.5 to 6 inch TOUCH screen makes no sense on a 12+ inch NON-TOUCH screen.

  9. E 2

    Also...

    MS is plainly advocating terrorism: just look at the guy on the http://www.generationapp.com/ page.

  10. Paul Webb
    Coat

    Is this the fame and fortune they are talking about?

    That Metro UI is (bed)spreading in the most unlikely of places:

    http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/londonspy/olympic-village-beds-just-68-inches-long-041600723.html

    I'll get my pj's...

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The thing is

    Microsoft will report fantastic sales figures of windows 8 as it will be shipped on every new laptop and desktop and the shareholders will be happy and the price will go up

    What they won't tell you is the amount that is being used in the wild as they will know only too well corporates and any savvy home users will be removing it before they've even setup their new laptop or desktop

    Metro interface will never fly on a laptop desktop or tablet for the simple fact that microsoft engrained icons into the publics mind and they won't change.

    The metro interface is the equivalent of a car manufacturer that comes out with a crazy new futuristic concept car that eventually makes it into production. Yeah you see a few people driving them but after a month or two they regret it and feel like tits and look like tits. People don't want tiles they want icons because 20 years ago during the PC boom Microsoft told them they wanted icons.

    Windows XP - icons

    Windows 7 - icons

    OS X - icons

    iOS - icons

    Android - icons / some widgets

    Windows 8 - live tiles in a bright garish colour

    Which one is the odd one out? And what would joe public pick?

    1. h4rm0ny

      Re: The thing is

      And what exactly is it that you feel you can do with icons that you can't do with the tiles on Metro? They seem to only add functionality to me. Or are you one of those people that covers their desktop with icons and thus needs them to be tiny? (*shudder*)

      1. Steve Knox

        Re: The thing is

        And what exactly is it that you feel you can do with icons that you can't do with the tiles on Metro?

        1. I can fit more - or less - than 20(-ish, depending on which size Microsoft decides the tiles should be) on one screen.

        2. I get to decide what size they are.

        3. I can put them anywhere on the screen, not just have them flow in an orthographic grid. So I can, say, put them on the far right side of the screen and set my background picture to use the left side of the screen, or center the background and put them on either side, or even spell out naughty words with them.

        4. I can hide them entirely and use pop-up menus to navigate to what I want.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The thing is

        Well, considering that the desktop is supposed to be the "top of my desk", let's see what I have there, on a 6' by 5' desk: phone, coffee cup, pens, keyboard, mouse, about ten piles of papers, 2 books open, everything covered by other papers which I need to have under my eyes, plus the monitors "floating" above them, because this is how I need to work, to open 3D models on one or two monitors, to write a spec document while reading form another two documents and the text of a couple of e-mails, crop pictures and work on a pwrpoint presentation, and all in about the same time... and keep a window hidden with elreg...

        By extension what I have on the monitors is a "superdesktop", so I need to organize it as it suits me and my work.

        And here comes somebody who wants my desk-top to look neat and clean and cool... some Martha_Stewart wannabe...

        msoft should stick to what they do well, programming stuff to work, mostly in the background, and let me organize the desktop the way it is more efficient and convenient for me, not play marthastewart in my office...

        I work and I am paid to solve technical problems and bring money to my company... and I like it...

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @h4rm0ny

        " Or are you one of those people that covers their desktop with icons and thus needs them to be tiny? (*shudder*)"

        Personally - no. I don't have hundreds of icons all over my desktop. Here's the question... who the fuck do you think you/microsoft are telling me I fucking well CAN'T if I wanted to?

        "And what exactly is it that you feel you can do with icons that you can't do with the tiles on Metro? They seem to only add functionality to me."

        Adding functionality by removing features/processes that people have been using for years. eh?

        You said it yourself... tiles are bigger than icons, you can't have as many on screen, and you can't position them to the same accuracy as before.

        How the feck is that giving us something better?

      4. Blitterbug
        Happy

        Re: ... are you one of those people that covers their desktop with icons ...

        h4rm0ny, you're conflating two mutually-exclusive concepts - the start page in Win8 and the desktop. Ok, so the OP you were answering did the same, but remember that the real work in Windows is done at the desktop, not from a butchered start menu full of full-screen clunky HTML gadgets.

        As an example, my Win7 desktop is icon-free. Completely. It has a couple of widgets, and a dock. Yes, an idea from Apple perhaps, but good ideas should travel, not be provincial.

        Just to re-iterate - I hate tatty, icon-filled desktops as much as you. I like a clean, neat interface *that I can boot into directly* !!!

    2. jim 45

      Re: The thing is

      Oh, the pundits all said people would never give up DOS either. Who needed a mouse and icons? They'd just get in the way of you getting your work done. We've all learned the command line, and can't change now.

      I had Metro figured out in about 5 minutes of fiddling and exploring (remember how to do that?) and I am obviously no kid. If you don't like the design on aesthetic grounds, sure, I get that. But in the time some IT professionals will spend writing angry posts about "usablity", their 10-year-old kids will have it all figured out..

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The thing is

        Oh, the pundits all said people would never give up DOS either. Who needed a mouse and icons? They'd just get in the way of you getting your work done. We've all learned the command line, and can't change now.

        You see the problem with that statement is people who were using DOS were a small amount of people as computers didn't become mainstream until after the GUI. People would have been using DOS for work or if you were lucky enough to be able to own a machine and you were interested in computing

        With the GUI and falling prices Microsoft were able to capture and dominate the OS market bringing it to the masses for all sorts of tasks rather than just those who needed to use the command line for work or were interested in tinkering with computers. Microsoft aren't in a position now where they can radically change their OS as there are too many credible alternatives these days.

        Apple have been smart take iOS for example they've got the icons but they give you little number notifications on the icon and tie it in with the notification centre and it works really well. That's evolving something that people are familiar with but with windows 8 its going at what people know and love with a chainsaw and tagging the dying remains to a new interface.

        The market has been definied by Windows already and Metro is too much of a jump for the bulk of people to warm to. They associate laptops and desktops with clicking on start but that is gone and people won't want these machines as they will be uncomfortable and unfamiliar with them just like the punters who didn't like Linux when they realised that was on the netbook they bought. I expect we will see hundreds of thousands of pirate copies of windows 7 on machines originally sold with windows 8.

        This is suicide for Microsoft they are obviously trying to go after the tablet market but apple have the consumer side sewn up and any inroads Microsoft make in the corporate market with tablets will be a fraction of the money they will be losing out on as companies decide to skip windows 8 and squeeze everything they can out of XP and windows.

        If google had any smarts they'd fork Ubuntu rebrand it and stick KDE 4 on it and release it in two flavours one for corporate and one for normal users since they don't seem to want to bring android to the desktop

        1. jim 45

          Re: The thing is

          I guess I basically disagree that the public is really that inflexible and that the current Windows GUI is such a cornerstone of their existence. . They won't accept a new shell on Windows, but they're rushing to buy iPads?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Jim 45

        There you have it.

        Win 8 is designed for a 10 year old to use. Perfect.

        All the nice 'shiny' the average 10 year old would want. Huge big icons/tiles all over the place, which animate nicely. Brilliant to start their browser/minecraft/wow client.

        How about for the rest of us who use our machines to actually GET SOME FUCKING WORK DONE?

      3. Whitespace

        "their 10-year-old kids will have it all figured out.."

        But very few of their 10 year old kids will be earning serious money with their knowledge.

        And the 10 year olds who figured out Office 2003 in 2003 must have been somewhat disappointed to have to forget all the hard proprietary bits (Microsoft Office's menu interfaces) and re-learn Office 2007/2010/2013 when they were old enough to work for a living.

        Who can even guess what will be the dominant system in 8 years time?

    3. Anonymous IV

      Re: The thing is

      "Microsoft will report fantastic sales figures of windows 8 as it will be shipped on every new laptop and desktop and the shareholders will be happy and the price will go up

      What they won't tell you is the amount that is being used in the wild as they will know only too well corporates and any savvy home users will be removing it before they've even setup their new laptop or desktop"

      I wonder how soon there will be "Downgrade Rights" from Windows 8 to Windows 7, like there were for Vista back to XP?

      Except that the customers will insist on calling them "Upgrade Rights"...

  12. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    1 OS to divide them all

    There's a reason Apple developed iOS - and it's been said again and again, yet it's worth saying.

    It's really hard to effectively tie two paradigms together with one system. It's fairly clear what Microsoft are attempting here, but it may just prove another nail in the 'windows mobile' coffin.

    Apple built iOS slowly and carefully. They had the App store ready a day before the launch of the iPhone 3G, with 500 applications. At the time, it was a gamble, but Apple had waited a year after the first iPhone launch and the first iteration of iOS before launching the App store and the iPhone 3G the next day.

    That's smart, very smart.

    It gave developers a year to produce applications for a *single* device, tightly controlled by Apple.

    Here we have Microsoft launching an OS that's trying to fit across all paradigms and seemingly begging for people to develop Apps for it.

    It really does look like a foolish move, whichever way you try to paint it.

    Those with existing Windows Mobiles will be dead in the water - no prizes for guessing they'll never get a windows mobile device again.

    Punters will end up buying non-touch enabled cheap laptops and desktops lumbered with an OS designed for touch, with no familiar start menu - this is sure to cause more than a little frustration and push them back to Windows 7.

    Windows XP, still with significant market share, has been around for over a decade.

    I predict that Windows 7 will do exactly the same and that Microsoft will end up going down the Apple route - an OS for mobile and an OS for desktop.

    But only after they've learned yet *another* hard lesson - they really don't seem to get it.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hello it's a DEPRESSION...Bank runs, police state, copyright trolls exploits, war murder

    We don't need new when we have things that "already work" and don't "cost more money we don't have"

    For the new office 2013 libre office already takes care of everything

    With XP there's zero desire to migrate years of tweaks and settings to win 7 which can never "truly" replicate the original which also works with external rack hardware, and would take years (I no longer have now) to tweak again. They are not shoving a cell phone OS onto my fucking desktop. That goes for the same shit in linux they been pulling (I never left debian, I only supported ubu). You want to develop OS application for tracking devices (sorry, I mean mobile phones) go ahead, who's famous now for cell phones? Motorola? or that cute chic in the Metro PCS commercial? I don't know her name. Famous for her body, makes you want to climb in that red and white dress yeah. I think this offer of fame and fortune is bs. like most of the propaganda out there. Just like spraying the fucking sky with chemicals and energizing that shit from haarp stations around the world is bullshit. While I know you didn't ask my opinion, now I am giving it. Microsoft has turned into a horrible corporation, Bill Gates is off his rocker, a eugenicist at heart, vaccines, aerial spraying, monsanto, the UN. I won't spend one more cent on their ass, and if they force a god damn fascist nwo carbon tax on me I am going to extract a pound of flesh from them somewhere else.

    Look, it's a depression. You can pretend things are well, but they aren't. My systems work perfectly right now, and so they will in ten years, it there is still life on Earth, they will work exactly the same, I have purchased the EMF/Flood/Fire protected spare parts. If your going to drop a nuke on me go ahead. What's the point. MY system already has 10 years wisdom over yours. It will take you two years to install everything. My desktop themes are the result of throwing all other unproductive themes out over the past 10 years. Either the start button in XP or the Right click in Enlightenment is the correct way forward. You can spend (Oh wait maybe you can't spend now) all you want on studies, I don't care. My shit also runs off grid now, mostly on racks so even if there's no internet/web/tube access I could give a crap it's only 1000-1500 watts total anyway. If the intertubes all goes down, nothing is going to matter but carrying a bucket of water and piss anyway!

    To desire to have my app famous in the app store. Wow, driving the future forward with the worst of all worlds. RF on your skull, Tracker in your pocket, Self Sufficiency out the window, oh yeah and the bloody annual renewal costs. Seems I Might be better remembered as a fascist profiteer, enabling eugenics by proxy.

    I'd rather play with a CB radio at night, or clean a Deer once a year.. There are more important things now, like making sure our governments don't start WW3, or the banksters don't pull this again (they better run for their fucking lives this time.) We have pretty damn good technology right now as it stands. Everything I could possibly want, just works. It only breaks when I update, if your cloned then updates are no longer a threat, if debugging fails. So the reality is for me, there is no market for you. But it doesn't stop there, because over the past ten years, Microsoft also pissed me off, (it's called fraud) and so now I really have a revenge style reason to absolutely resist. I won't buy your mobile phone, your OS, your office suite, keyboards, mice; since I have no phone, I won't be at your app store. In my world, something has happened, it's called business and government have gone too far over the line. Just remember what I said, I remember the Cute Metro PCS girl, I don't remember her name though, she's only famous in a beautiful girl to look at kind of way. The only other famous name I can remember was Motorola, they got gutted. I pulled all their antennas out of the trash, part's, radios, cable--all in the trash. There's no specific name I remember, but I will remember motorola, I still have their tech manuals boxes and boxes of them. How much fortune can it be if I have the antennas you threw away when your failed business closed shop? Even if you were famous, you don't have any respect -- the Metro PCS deal.

    I know a lot will vote this down. Half the conversations I start I never finish, that's called frustration, things are getting to be so unreal, I can barely cope, I am watching as the governments of the world strip me of everything slowly and poison the Earth with lies and war. I fucking admit it, I am falling apart, this fucking bullshit has to stop. It's interfered with life itself.

    I've said enough to piss everyone off somehow. As long as the part that pissed you off caused you to think just a little bit about the geopolitical situation, I did my job and give myself +1000

    Go ahead and code Apps for microsoft, there's no law against it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hello it's a DEPRESSION...Bank runs, police state, copyright trolls exploits, war murder

      Ah, yet, the tired old "Everything we've got already works just fine." argument.

      That anyone in IT can even consider using this simply staggers me. That it's so common an argument, I find utterly bewildering.

      It's an argument for stopping development, maybe just continuing on bug fixes. It's an argument that would leave us not knowing what we could have because we don't bother to research what we could get. Ultimately it's an argument that we don't need anything other than mainframes and dumb terminals, because they worked just fine. We didn't do other things with mainframes, because we simply had no idea what we could do.

      Metro may be a flop, it may be a success, but at least there are companies trying to be different, researching and looking at different ways to address our stagnating user interfaces.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Hello it's a DEPRESSION...Bank runs, police state, copyright trolls exploits, war murder

        different? je pense que non! they are merely copying someone else's idea, because they've lost ten percent of the market, but are going to sacrifice the other ninety who hate apple, to do it.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Hello it's a DEPRESSION...Bank runs, police state, copyright trolls exploits, war murder

          Who's idea is Metro copying?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Facepalm

        Re: Hello it's a DEPRESSION...Bank runs, police state, copyright trolls exploits, war murder

        "Metro may be a flop, it may be a success, but at least there are companies trying to be different, researching and looking at different ways to address our stagnating user interfaces."

        Quite right - and in a similar vein the user interface to the car has been the same for about 100 years. Its about time someone changed it for its own sake! Who needs a steering wheel and pedals, lets have some coloured levers and squeezy balls! It might not work anywhere near as well but hey , don't be a luddite , change for its own sake is all that matters.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Hello it's a DEPRESSION...Bank runs, police state, copyright trolls exploits, war murder

          Car analogies for IT rarely work - the car's UI is governed by the physical layout of a human and needs to be the same foe each vehicle, if people are to be able to use it. Neither of these restrictions apply to a GUI.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            WTF?

            Re: Hello it's a DEPRESSION...Bank runs, police state, copyright trolls exploits, war murder

            "Car analogies for IT rarely work - the car's UI is governed by the physical layout of a human and needs to be the same foe each vehicle, if people are to be able to use it. Neither of these restrictions apply to a GUI."

            So humans don't need to be able to use a GUI? Riiiight. Who or what was Metro designed for then, Colour blind Klingons?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Hello it's a DEPRESSION...Bank runs, police state, copyright trolls exploits, war murder

              The interface with the GUI is the same, keyboard/pointing device, the GUI is not. Taking away the physical interface would be the bit where the human form is important, not the stuff on the screen which is an analogy to a physical office space. An analogy which was required to get initial buy in and may not be needed any more, but that remains to be seen.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Metro myths

    Amazing how almost every comentard keeps spreading some metro myths. Like the one of its great design (best described as designed by fischer price, garish and flat), or the one of its "great usability", when the tiles are reduced functionality (and reduced usability) copies of android widgets, and at least in WP7.5 metro is marred by huge usability problems, supposed to be solved in WP8 - for which there is no upgrade path from WP7. While it seems that most WP7.5 owners (the installed user base for metro) suffer from stockholm syndrome, the global population has kept away from it, and will probably keep away from its desktop version. So why keep repeating the myth that metro is great on a phone? It is a huge failure, and it has yet to be seen if it will be any better with windows 8/WP8.

    Another "myth" that all softies are now repeating is of the pretended invasion of the reg (and slashdot) by android supporters, when in fact it has been a huge invasion by msft supporters (and also some fanboi invasion in a smaller scale) with several accounts identified in slashdot as waggener erdstrom sock puppets. I know I will get downvoted a lot by saying this, and also probably denounced by Jim...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Metro myths

      Lots of MS supporters? Really? Look at the comments above: Anyone saying anything positive about metro is being rounded on, downvoted and slagged off. There are far more people slagging off any positive comment than there are making positive comments.

      And accusing people who use WP7 as having Stockholm syndrome? Really Hyperbole much?

    2. jim 45

      Re: Metro myths

      " metro is marred by huge usability problems"

      No idea what you're getting at here. I have a WP7 phone, and I've encountered no "problems" in doing anything at all with it. In general everything was blindingly obvious and easy.

      " While it seems that most WP7.5 owners... suffer from stockholm syndrome,"

      That would include myself and a couple of friends who recently bought Lumias. And maybe my wife, who has an Android but wants a WP7 after seeing mine. It can't be Stockholm Syndrome if you haven't been captured, yet...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Facepalm

        Re: Metro myths

        How the hell did jim 45's post get six downvotes? What are people downvoting? They disapprove of his experience, and think that's he's unreasonable for having not had problems with his WP7 device? There's nothing snarky, mean, or any claim which can't be proven or can be disproved.

        I've seen people say some truly nasty things and not get six downvotes / zero upvotes, and this guy gets that for saying that he doesn't hate his phone?

        Sometimes I wonder about this place.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Metro myths

          > How the hell did jim 45's post get six downvotes?

          Maybe not a lot of people have read the thread yet.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    But it's NOT Windows 8

    It's Windows 6.2

    Open a command prompt and type ver if you don't believe me.

    Windows Vista = 6.0

    Windows 7 = 6.1

    Windows 8 = 6.2

    Micro$oft have lost the plot!

    1. TonyHoyle

      Re: But it's NOT Windows 8

      It's kernel version 6, just like Win2k and XP both version 5.

      It's Windows version 8.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: But it's NOT Windows 8

      Go to the terminal on Linux and type uname -a - it doesn't say "fedora 15" on my laptop, rather it gives the kernel version number.

      1. Wensleydale Cheese

        Re: But it's NOT Windows 8

        "Go to the terminal on Linux and type uname -a - it doesn't say "fedora 15" on my laptop, rather it gives the kernel version number."

        This is what my Fedora 17 system says:

        3.4.5-2.fc17.x86_64

        See the "fc17" in there?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: But it's NOT Windows 8

          Yes, except the FC17 is the distro that the package has been made for, not the Kernel. The Kernel is the version number before that.

          That's like saying when I type winver and a dialogue pops up saying "Windows 7 Ultimate" then in smaller text "Version 6.1" that the but that says "Windows 7 Ultimate" is the kernel version.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: But it's NOT Windows 8

            It's Windows H8

  16. Charles Osborne
    Facepalm

    ...and what Pollyannas come up with these names?

    They're just begging for "Generation Crap" to become their de facto handle.

  17. roselan
    Holmes

    astroturfing land or not?

    I have to admit I can't read a pro 8 comment without wondering "astroturfing or not?". Here the phenomenon is quite contained, but on other tech news sites it's quite impressive.

    As independent developer, I meet several CTI, IT specialists, Sysadmins, they are unanimous against win 8. Lot's of IT people dislike MS for years, but they could live with it. 8 seems to cristalyze their resentment. However, that doesn't explain everything.

    When I (remotely) showed win 8 to some "normal" users, the experience wasn't far from "joe" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4boTbv9_nU&feature=related), except my guinea pigs got angry and frustrated real fast. None of them lasted this torture more than a minute. (they were traders, accountants, secretary, pr people, clerks, and even a CEO).

    Now, every article linked to win 8 turns into a flames war. Even Vista didn't not generate such resentment to what I recall. That's why I can't help but wonder manically about the win 8 pro comments. Are they genuine windows defenders (pun intended), or corrupted.

    I know pro blogging is hard these days, and that any extra revenue is a nice to have. But it's all suspicion, there no *proof*. A well made professional inquiry on that would be nice. Tech sites won't complain about it, it generates page view and so revenues. So I guess we will have to keep guessing...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: astroturfing land or not?

      If you think that Traders, a CEO and Accountants are normal users, I question your IT experience. They are very special cases.

  18. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge
    Windows

    Fame, fortune ....

    ... and all the Kool-Aid you can drink.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Mushroom

    Personall I think..

    It smacks of desperate showmanship and grasping at straws.

    I am not bitter and twisted about how my experiences with microsoft have left a branding iron burn on my arse - that extends from the top of my skull to the soles of my feet...

    But I wish them every malice and misfortune along the road to their demise.

    "Bullet to the knee cap Sir? - I think you will find it works better when done to both legs."

  20. tom 78

    Reversable Fail

    All Microsoft need to do in case of massive Metro hate is send out a hotfix making Metro an option, crisis averted?

  21. Tejekion
    Thumb Up

    I tried Windows 8, and Love it....So far.

    I kept thinking to myself. This is going to suck crap! No Taskbar and Metro only UI for the desktop. Much to my pleasant surprise though, I quickly found the Windows 7 style desktop(complete with Aero Glass theme and all) by clicking on the lower left corner(At least in the Developer preview I downloaded last night). I clicked where it Windows Icon was not noticing the little arrow behind it pointing to the left. When I did so, a slightly modified Windows 7 Aero Glass dektop appeared. I added the default icons and I've been using it ever since. I even switch back to Metro every once in a while to try my luck at some of the apps on it.

    Getting out of those apps is a breeze. Just hit one of the windows keys on the keyboard and it backs you out of that particular program. I hate to say it, but it looks like M$ is going to get the $ out of my pocket on a WHOOOOLE lot of new hardware and OS when I start refreshing my systems and phones. 2013 is going to be an interesting year Tech wise...at least for me.

This topic is closed for new posts.

Other stories you might like