back to article Microsoft to devs: Don't ruin Win 8 launch with crap code

Microsoft has urged developers to only use approved Windows 8 software interfaces to avoid spoiling the launch of its new operating system with dodgy code. In a stark warning this week, the company said third-party programmers should “resist the temptation” of invoking APIs that aren’t included in the official Software …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.
  1. stucs201

    Microsoft to devs: Don't ruin Win 8....

    ....too late for that, you've already ruined it yourselves.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Thumb Up

      Re: Microsoft to devs: Don't ruin Win 8....

      Beat me to it.

      Dev's to microsoft: hey you started it.

      1. Robert E A Harvey
        FAIL

        Aye

        Pot, meet kettle

      2. henrydddd
        Linux

        Re: Microsoft to devs: Don't ruin Win 8....

        I detect the distinct scent of fear by MS in this article.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      What!

      or like some android developers have done with their battery draining, detail stealing, ad filled apps?

      1. Ilgaz

        Here is what happens

        On Android, all devices have "what has been using the battery" function. If your app (not game) makes to that list or a technical user (or rival) bust your app using excessive cpu at background, you are doomed. 1 star reviews, people asking their money back and blog posts will sure erase you from market.

        That is "open market". Customers decide.

        Ms just tries to photocopy Apple without being Apple or having their customer profile.

    3. Code Monkey
      Windows

      Re: Microsoft to devs: Don't ruin Win 8....

      [guffaw] Coming from Microsoft is is hilarious.

    4. Fatman
      FAIL

      Re: Microsoft to devs: Don't ruin Win 8....

      Hell, they ruined it long time ago, WinBloMo anyone???

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Trollface

        Re: Microsoft to devs: Don't ruin Win 8....

        hahahahahaha

        Its like getting someone to drive a totalled car to the scrapyard, and telling them "Don't ruin it!..."

    5. Anonymous Coward
      WTF?

      Re: Microsoft to devs: Don't ruin Win 8....

      Amazing. MS are being no more restrictive than Apple, perhaps less so, and yet they receive all this cr@p comment!

  2. Nigel 11
    Mushroom

    Oh, PLEASE

    Microsoft has just told you how to strangle this abomination at birth. Do you need any further encouragement?

    1. Mikel
      Windows

      Re: Oh, PLEASE

      Good point! Off to build some W8 cRapps that use the secret APIs to accidently crash Metro. No doubt the malware hackers are already all over this one.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Oh, PLEASE

        I'm not a developer so please excuse me if this is a dumb question, but shouldn't these APIs be restricted?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Oh, PLEASE

          You expect MS to remember to restrict the APIs?

          I thought IE was famous for it's poorly implemented hooks into the OS.

  3. DrXym Silver badge

    Are Microsoft implicitly admitting...

    ... that the only way to install apps is through their store? Because that would be an awfully shitty thing to inflict on users if its true.

    1. Paul Shirley

      Re: Are Microsoft implicitly admitting...

      ...the 1st clue was a couple of weeks back when they revealed the 3rd Win8 build (forget its name, its the corporate version), with 'sideloading' of Metro apps as an extra feature. Yes, Metro is locked down on the desktop as well as the phones.

    2. cyberdemon
      Gimp

      Re: Are Microsoft implicitly admitting...

      Shitty indeed!

      Apple would never do that!

      1. jnemesh
        FAIL

        Re: Are Microsoft implicitly admitting...

        Really? Apple is starting to do that now. They already have an app store for Mac, and they are limiting access to APIs depending on if the app is sold in the app store or not.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @jnemesh

          Looks like someone needs a sarcasm detector here...

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @jnemesh

          So in other word, Apple aren't limiting how you install software.

        3. Fatman
          WTF?

          Re: Are Microsoft implicitly admitting...

          It looks like your sarcasm tags got removed!

          Lousy forum software!

          1. Ilsa Loving
            Facepalm

            Re: Are Microsoft implicitly admitting...

            "It looks like your sarcasm tags got removed!

            Lousy forum software!"

            See what happens when you use 3rd party APIs?

      2. Ilgaz

        Private frameworks exist on Apple os too

        Every modern operating system, especially object oriented one like os x does have private frameworks and I don't know a single developer who loves to use them or trust them.

        The issue here is, the win rt API is pathetically basic and you can't code anything real with it unless you use private frameworks which Microsoft happily use with internet explorer/ office etc.

        Btw, when apple said something is private, they really meant it. In fact, interestingly, they "beta" tested future frameworks shipping them/ using them as private and making them public once they are mature.

        Microsoft can't abuse Apple's operating system as an excuse.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Are Microsoft implicitly admitting...

      No - the only way to install metro apps is through the store, you can install all your regular app just like you did before.

  4. auburnman

    Marketing is working

    All this talk of Windows 8 keeps reminding me I have to hurry up and buy a new PC.

    While Windows 7 is still easily available.

    1. Mage Silver badge

      Re: Marketing is working

      "Marketing is working

      All this talk of Windows 8 keeps reminding me I have to hurry up and buy a new PC.

      While Windows 7^H XP is still easily available."

      Fixed it for you.

      1. Wile E. Veteran
        Devil

        Re: Marketing is working

        I'm in no hurry to buy a new PC. BSD and Linux will be available and easy to get for quite some time to come.

        Well, somebody had to say it!

        1. Matthew 25
          Meh

          Re: Marketing is working

          Yes but with which UI?

        2. Ilgaz

          Re: Marketing is working

          Better support fsf/gnu for this, only 28000 (yes, thousands) signed so far.

          www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statement

          Or, we will end up jail breaking our pcs to install Linux/BSD.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Marketing is working

            28,000.

            Is it any wonder the large manufacturers won't waste time and money developing products for such a tiny market!

    2. Paul Crawford Silver badge
      Linux

      Re: Marketing is working

      No worry, as win7 will be available for years due to demand just like XP got several stays of execution.

      So please don't give them any more money then necessary?

      Tux - 'cause he/she is cheap, and I like IT!

  5. pip25
    FAIL

    Meanwhile

    Internet Explorer is likely calling the very same APIs that developers (including Mozilla) should not use. But IE is made by Microsoft, and they know what they're doing, right? Right...?

    Talk about hypocrisy...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Meanwhile

      "But IE is made by Microsoft, and they know what they're doing, right? Right...?"

      ...but DO they?

    2. Chris 155
      Paris Hilton

      Re: Meanwhile

      This is just reiterating an old truth. If you use undocumented APIs they can and probably will change without notice. If you're the office or internet explorer team you will probably get told this is going to happen(with at least 5 minutes notice).

      It's not about the APIs being bad as such, or about Microsoft knowing what they're doing, it's about change management. Published APIs require massive amounts of hoopla to change, and they generally have to keep the old APIs around in a deprecated state for the next 10 years so that legacy code works. Unpublished APIs on the other hand can essentially be changed at will, won't remain in a deprecated state and the first notification you as an outside developer will receive that these APIs have been changed is when your program fails.

      This isn't new, nor is it distinctly Microsoft. The interesting part of this article is that Microsoft realizes that crappy third party software impacts their reputation.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Devil

    Corporate stuff

    If there was ever an example of corporate bullying and arrogance, this would be a fine one to use.

  7. Christopher Michaelis
    FAIL

    Don't write shit code, please....

    .....we have a patent on that.

    1. Vanir
      Go

      Re: Don't write shit code, please....

      Yes, it was bought from the worldwide developer community.

    2. Fatman
      Mushroom

      Re:.....we have a patent on that.

      'cuz Oracle might sue them!!

      <----- Appropriate icon for Oracle.

  8. MIc
    FAIL

    So many awesome comments in here...

    So many comments in here full of logical insight. Which is a nice change from the rest of the internet where people say stuff that is clearly driven entirely from emotion.

    I was half expecting some crap about how WinRT removed almost all synchronous IO operations to make it harder for developers to create crappy apps that spin up a bunch of unneeded threads.

    Well done reg readers... well done.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: So many awesome comments in here...

      People as whole are often conservative and repetitive in their thinking aren't they. Who needs unwanted threads in software when we find so many same old conversational threads here. Too easy to spot the commentators who've never written any serious software but don't let that stop them commenting on APIs and stuff.

    2. Ilgaz

      There is a fire in house and you care about dishes

      Their first release is such a bad joke that you can't release a third party browser (which became like command.com important) for mobile devices coming with it.

      Got it? No Firefox, no opera mobile.

      Stuff you mention sound cosmetic. I guess it is very important but come on, this sounds like playbook type of mistake.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: There is a fire in house and you care about dishes

        Mate, you need to go away and learn the difference between a metro app and a Win32 app. You'll be able to install whatever browser you want on your x86 machine, it's only IE-only on a Metro only device - ie an Arm unit.

  9. Graham Wilson
    Windows

    Too late, Windows 8/ARM is already an 'Also Ran'.

    Unless a miracle happens, it's my intention to ignore it completely.

    As stucs201 says, Microsoft has already ruined Metro/Windows 8

    'Nuff said.

    __

    WARNING: Engage with Metro and the 'Windoze User' icon will end up flattering you!

  10. Bucky 2
    Pint

    Oooh! Oooh! I have an idea!

    How about document the entire API, so it wouldn't actually be POSSIBLE to use "undocumented" API calls?

    Yaaaaaayyy!

    1. MIc
      Thumb Down

      Re: Oooh! Oooh! I have an idea!

      Terrible idea.

      What do you do we code you want depreciate and then remove? If you document it and people use it now you will break existing apps so you end up leaving it in there for a very long time?

      What if can lead to bad app design? Such as all of the synchronous APIs in the Win32 API?

      I don't think your comment has taken into account the long term ramifications of documenting everything?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Oooh! Oooh! I have an idea!

        I don't think your comment has taken into account the fact that the above comment was a joke.

        More seriously, if the public APIs are so great for writing a Metro application, why would anyone turn to the "unofficial" APIs? Could it be that Microsoft also thinks that *gasp* the SDK in its present form leaves something to be desired, and that many programmers might take a look into the "dark side"?

        It's a bit like including a desktop version of Office into Windows RT. It's a confession which states "Err yeah, Metro is cool, but we can't really make Office work on it yet." If these unofficial APIs are among the "secret stuff" used by Metro IE, that's another confession: "Windows RT is fun, but there are things which we can't build with it ourselves either."

        Instead of whining about "customer confidence" and making thinly veiled threats about store policy, Microsoft should create an API which is, first of all, completely public and stable enough that the deprecations you mention won't be a problem for some time, and second, allows for at least the amount of freedom they want for THEMSELVES when creating an application like Metro IE.

        Who knows, maybe they'll do just that for Windows 9...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What do you do we code you want depreciate

        Downvoted for not knowing the difference between deprecation and depreciation.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Joke

    Damage control already ?

    Oh I can see it now...

    Mr. Steve: "Dear investors, you may wonder why Windows 8 managed to sell even less copies than Windows Vista. I can say this; its not us. No: Developers, developers, developers, developers, ..."

    <skip>

    "....and so: Developers! And as you can see we foresaw this coming and issued several warnings. But did they listen? No!".

    "So now I hope you'll approve /more/ investment into Windows 8 so that we can set things right!". Mr. Steve thinks: "I only hope I didn't accidentally fire the only guys who still know how to program a start menu..."

    1. stanimir

      Re: Damage control already ?

      I can say this; its not us. No: Developers, developers, developers, developers, ...

      Exactly my though.

  12. Mage Silver badge

    APIs that are outside the SDK

    But MS will use them.

    And invent more they don't tell about when it suits them.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      MS officially confirms Win8 is a security hole

      Basically they haven't been able to clean up yet the carcasses of abandoned APIs in their desperation to rush Win8 before it's obvious even to the dumbest of the dumbest that it's already too late. So you can bet that Win8 in terms of security is like a drug-addict whore telling anybody "come and get me..."

    2. Daniel von Asmuth
      Windows

      Re: APIs that are outside the SDK

      Just wait for the 'undocumented Metro' book.

  13. Azzy

    All the well written 3rd party apps in the world won't save win8!

    Wouldn't calling undocumented APIs that don't work fall under devs ruining windows 8 with Microsoft's own bad code?

    If they'd just document all their APIs, this wouldn't be a problem! But of course, they won't do this, because then they wouldn't get an unfair advantage over third party developers....

    1. MIc

      Re: All the well written 3rd party apps in the world won't save win8!

      The only difference between some random DLL and an API is the documentation. And official API may be designed to be easily consumed but that is subjective. So are you suggesting that they document how to use every piece of code in Windows?

      1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

        Re: All the well written 3rd party apps in the world won't save win8!

        "So are you suggesting that they document how to use every piece of code in Windows?"

        In a word - yes.

        Or remove them completely so their own developer's don't have something special to play with.

        Remember its not just IE that gets special treatment on WOA/WinRT, but they also have a special rule to allow Office to run without the dreaded metro interface. Why not allow LibreOffice this access?

        Yes, I know, that was a rhetorical question...

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. stanimir

        Re: All the well written 3rd party apps in the world won't save win8!

        So are you suggesting that they document how to use every piece of code in Windows?

        you mean like Linux?

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Think of the devs

    Dear Microsoft,

    You seem to have forgotten what Steve Balmer taught you about the platform with the most developers?

    If this is a problem now, I'm guessing that MS has not made it sufficiently clear what APIs should be used.

    1. MIc

      Re: Think of the devs

      Win32 and WinRT.

      Seems pretty clear to me.

  15. Benjamin 4
    Joke

    I imagine their thoughts are along these lines: The money we'll get from Windows 8 in the enterprise wouldn't be enough to feed an anorexic Ethiopian on hunger strike (for that matter it probably wouldn't be enough to feed an anorexic Ethiopian mouse on hunger strike), owing to the fact there is no productivity and little security gains.

    So, we've got to make money from consumers. But wait. there's very few apps available, and those that are are hastily cobbled together ports from Windows 7 that don't really work. Quick lets make a shiny front end, force it on everyone and hope consumers suddenly go ooh, shiny stuff.

    Good luck ms, you'll need it.

  16. Doug Glass
    Go

    "Developers, just be sure ....

    ... you don't pick up the stinky end of the Windows 8 turd."

    1. Euripides Pants

      Re: "Developers, just be sure ....

      Wouldn't both ends stink?

      1. Mikel

        Re: "Developers, just be sure ....

        So you did understand then.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's not been about the developers for a very very long time

    It's been about the volume market PC builders being obliged to pay for a Windows licence on every PC they sell in order to get the best deals from MS.

    That tactic won't work with ARM, so they have to motivate the manufacturers (and end users) in other ways. After all, the last thing the Wintel crew want is a range of competitively priced ARM hardware coming on to the market and running a Linux of the end users choice "out of the box". That's not been an option in the past because of the variations in the various ARM platforms. But the MS-specified platform for Windows 8 delivers immediate compatibility across a wide range of compatible hardware systems (same way as PocketPC did for, er Pocket PCs, eg iPAQ etc). This time round, anything that would run on the specified platform for Windows 8 would also run an appropriate out of the box Linux.

    Talk about shooting themselves in the foot. So they've got to find a way to prevent that. Hence the attempted total lockdown in hardware and software on the ARM side of Windows 8.

    1. Richard Plinston

      Re: It's not been about the developers for a very very long time

      > That tactic won't work with ARM,

      HP dropped WebOS, an ARM tablet and phone OS that would compete against WinRT and WP8.

      Was this the first fatality of MS's "We've got ARM stuff now if you want to preserve your discounts." ?

  18. This post has been deleted by its author

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Just as closed as Apple but with no market share?

    "It comes back to what we've said before on Windows 8: just like the first Windows Phone, Microsoft is keeping the ARM platform closed to third parties, whose apps could cause application crashes and ruin the consumer launch."

    Microsoft is keeping the ARM platform closed to third parties to avoid unwanted competition on their own platform. They will hand wave about APIs and robustness to avoid people considering their actions as their old monopolistic tendencies.

    Mozilla are not cowboys, they have made a solid product for years. Most of those years their product was a lot less cowboy than the Microsoft one.

    1. h4rm0ny

      Re: Just as closed as Apple but with no market share?

      "Mozilla are not cowboys, they have made a solid product for years"

      Ignoring that I've had Firefox crash on my numerous times., if you say one third party software writer can bypass all the restrictions, how do you say whether any other can or can't? Are you just going to say anyone with a big enough brandname like Firefox gets a free pass? I don't think that's good.

      1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

        "any other can or can't?"

        The point is the OS should provide the appropriate restrictions for ALL applications, and regulated by only a few permission levels depending on what an app needs to do.

        The beef here is MS want to play with APIs for IE and Office that others are not allowed to, a bit like the old Word vs. WordPerfect anti-trust case where MS, due to its inner knowledge of its own OS, could out-perform other software by using undocumented features (OK WordPerfect had other issues, but the API tricks are known).

        Or the same tactic, used more sneakily, to break DR-DOS + Win3.0 etc.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    That's right !

    It's Microsuck's job to write all the bad code.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Wait a minute

    MIc seems to be posting very pro-microsoft views

    I wonder if he works for MIcROSOFT?

  22. DMHagwood

    Knowing M$'s history, I think I will be skipping this version of Windows anyway. A bad version always follows a good version of Windows. 3.11: Good, Windows 95: Bad, Windows 98: Good, Windows ME: Terrible!, Windows XP: Good, Windows Vista: Blows chunks!, Window 7: Good. With a pattern like that over the years, could you blame a person for being skeptical?

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Alert

      You are comparing two product lines, the one from the DOS side and the one from the DEC side, and where's NT 3.1, 3.5 and W2K?

      For me, it was W2K - "last known good" on the DEC side.

  23. jnemesh
    Devil

    Microsoft, don't ruin the OS by restricting APIs!

    Oh, and have fun dealing with the EU regulators, since you obviously haven't learned anything since the last time they tanned your hide!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Microsoft, don't ruin the OS by restricting APIs!

      "you obviously haven't learned anything since the last time they tanned your hide!"

      Record-breaking fines were announced, but was any money ever actually paid, or was it all suspended pending yet another round of inter-lawyer duelling and delaying?

  24. Naughtyhorse

    didnt i read somewheres...

    that steve jobs had died........

    maybe not

  25. Unicornpiss Silver badge
    Thumb Down

    There are already enough OSes out there...

    Why bother with Win 8 with its dubious interface and benefits, to say nothing of the draconian measures stifling developers.

    Course I s'pose it may be slightly harder to run viruses on it, but still I expect it to end up so irrelevant that it makes people that are still clinging to XP look radically progressive...

  26. Robert Heffernan
    FAIL

    If it looks like a turd...

    This whole Windows 8 thing has stank to high heaven since day one.

    I applaud Microsoft for coming out with a version of Windows for ARM devices, but I quickly retracted that applause when they tool the Apple style walled garden approach. If I wanted to get reamed by the walled garden I would see the professionals in this field, Apple, I don't want the same restrictions from Microsoft (who should know better)

    I was shocked at the introduction of Metro in the desktop space, it looks like a steaming pile and is utterly useless, the mixed Desktop/Metro UI is (as our UK friends would say) a load of bollocks.

    I have done dev work with touch interface apps on the PC, I have even been overseas to a conference because of this work. Touch on a desktop PC makes no sense at all, the keyboard and mouse are much more useful and you don't need to reach across your desk to get to the screen then back to your keyboard and mouse. In the Tablet/Phone space touch completely makes sense and the desktop/keyboard/mouse paradigm doesn't work, here Metro and Touch work and work well. Pick the scheme that works best for the device and use it and it alone, you can't mix UI types.

    The fundamental idea behind WinRT is great, Win32 is so old and broken that a line in the sand needs to be drawn and a whole new API developed at the bottom layer with modern systems in mind; Many cores, large ram, large and varied storage, etc. Unfortunately in keeping with current trends, it's another layer of crap piled on top of Win32, adding yet another round of abstraction, processor and ram use, os bloat, and latency only to have the whole thing forgotten about when Microsoft dump it along with Metro when they finally realise how bad they screwed up.

    Microsoft in its grand unification of the platforms scheme just refuse to see that Windows 8 is going to suck, even though their customers and developers are screaming at them it will.

    I am sitting in the camp of sticking with Windows 7, I will run Windows 8 in a VM but only to ensure my apps work for the poor suckers who buy a new PC with the steaming pile pre installed.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: If it looks like a turd...

      Okay, but how does one manage to get reamed by a walled garden? Like on the desktop, the metaphors don't mix.

      1. Robert Heffernan
        Trollface

        @Destroy All Monsters

        "but how does one manage to get reamed by a walled garden"

        I won't go into details of the HOW, but I will say a tanker load of water based lubricant is required.

  27. Bush_rat
    Linux

    Linux and OS X

    Mac is currently moving in this direction as well, so there will be only one solution. Linux. With valve already porting steam and Left 4 Dead to Ubuntu, I see that making Linux and its many variants quite appealing.

    Windows was "great" because it always stayed roughly the same. But if M$ go and release this then all those years of providing a solid backbone in the OS market will have been for nothing.

    I know Ubuntu is doing the whole "tabletification" thing to, but it's only 1 or 2 terminal commands away from being exactly what windows should be. And the Ubuntu software centre is great, it doesn't get any special access, AFAIC it's just a pretty front end to apt-get.

    As for mac, it's pretty and easy to use, but if keeps heading in this direction, it'll be Ubuntu all the way, with a fedora on top.

    1. stanimir

      Re: Linux and OS X

      hard to imagine how apt-get can get any prettier, it so bloody simple.

      1. Bush_rat

        Re: Linux and OS X

        True, but the app store UI is handy for the non-tech savy Ubuntu user

    2. Fatman

      Re: Ubuntu software centre...it's just a pretty front end to apt-get.

      Which means it is a breeze to remove:

      sudo apt-get remove software-center

      and while we are at it,

      sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback

      sudo apt-get remove unity-3d

      makes for a much better system

      1. DAN*tastik

        @ Fatman - Re: Ubuntu software centre...it's just a pretty front end to apt-get.

        "sudo apt-get remove unity-3d"

        Installed Ubuntu on a friend's box a couple of days ago, and added KDE, Xfce and Gnome. I am only really familiar with Xubuntu right now, and Lubuntu. First time I saw current Unity, Gnome and KDE while I was trying to understand how they work before showing him. Hoping he could settle for at least one of those. I didn't hate any of them to be honest.

        He liked them all, but he adored and is now using Unity. Guess Canonical got it right?

        Anybody else had a similar experience with a non techie? Or completely different?

        1. Fatman
          FAIL

          Re: @ Fatman - Ubuntu software centre...it's just a pretty front end to apt-get.

          `Guess Canonical got it right?`

          NOT by me.

          AFAIAC, Unity is a complete FAIL - for a desktop. Unity plain sucks!

          NOT being a tablet/smartphone user, I offer NO opinion, but I do see its potential.

          I will concede that Unity is easier for n00bs; but, as an accomplished desktop user, I can not stand it. There are times when I need 5 or 6 windows open as I go about the daily grins, and that is a royal pain with Unity.

          Now, I will concede one thing the Unity people `got right`, and that is the screen switcher, and the way you can get the multiple desktops open in a screen. WROK PLACE is trying that (enhanced screen switcher) out on some RDP sessions for server control.

    3. Grumpy Fellow
      Linux

      Re: Linux and OS X

      I'm just curious, why is it that I can have my pick of half a dozen desktop environments on Linux, selecting one at log-on, but each Windows version only offers one desktop? It would seem an obvious advantage for Microsoft to offer choices as well, so why don't they?

      1. Oninoshiko
        Boffin

        The paradox of choice

        These scholors can explain it far metter the I can. I like the second one better although the title of the first talk is better, but your milage may vary.

        http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html

        http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/sheena_iyengar_choosing_what_to_choose.html

      2. Bush_rat
        Facepalm

        Re: Linux and OS X

        "I'm just curious, why is it that I can have my pick of half a dozen desktop environments on Linux, selecting one at log-on, but each Windows version only offers one desktop? It would seem an obvious advantage for Microsoft to offer choices as well, so why don't they?"

        Because Windows users are already rolling on the floor in confusion over Profesional, Ultimate, Starter or Home Premium. I've used all 4 and the only difference I noticed was between starter and every thing else over wifi issues and desktop background. Which I think is disgusting, even the shitiest of OS's don't force you to look at there logo the whole time.

        But windows 8 will let you choose between the Metro interface and the normal desktop, once you've logged in.

  28. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

    Abort, WinRT, Fail _

  29. LinkOfHyrule
    FAIL

    Who the fuck are Microsoft to say I can only install apps I get through their Windows Poundshop Market Place or whatever the heck its called! If I have brought a bit of software than as far as I am concerned I can do what the frig I want to it mate! The effing cheek! I'm guna have to start drinking real ale and using Linux at this rate!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Wrong, wrong, wrong..

      You can only install *metro* apps through the marketplace, much like you can only install iPad apps through their marketplace. Any of your other apps you can install on an x86 PC just like you always did. Seriously, people like you really need to get informed before ranting your ignorance about the place.

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Translation

    Those undocumented APIs, which we are telling you not to use, allow applications to run faster by cutting some corners and therefore are only for use by Microsoft apps so our code looks good and yours looks like a turd..

    We're back to the 1990s folks.. all we need now is someone to analyse all the undocumented API calls Microsoft used and document them, and then we can have a nice court case.

    1. Fatman

      Re: ...allow applications to run faster ...

      You forgot one VERY IMPORTANT aspect to that statement:

      the words `MICROSOFT CREATED` are missing from between `allow` and `applications`.

  31. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Expect windows 7 ..

    ... to cling onto life of as long as Windows XP, but only for developers, office use and diehard PC gamers.

    For all other usage - Consumer, entertainment, gaming - mobile, console, set-top - the old PC or lappie banished to the home office for accounts, homework etc. ...

    And it will be iOS and Android that rule the digital roost.

    The only way Microsoft has any chance of catching up is:

    a. An incredible take on a mobile OS

    b. Massive amounts of marketing

    We know they can do b. - unfortunately, so far, they've failed at a.

  32. Ken Hagan Gold badge
    Pirate

    You've all missed something

    It's not the usual "undocumented APIs are subject to change" story. The final reason given by MS for why we shouldn't use the APIs is:

    "Finally these APIs may undermine customer confidence by accessing resources or data that Metro style apps would not normally interact with."

    In other words, the current (Win8) implementation of Metro is full of security holes and we'd prefer if all the malware vendors didn't use them, thanks. Otherwise the early adopters of Metro-based devices will get shafted and our marketing department will be sad.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: You've all missed something

      Exactly what I said in another comment, Win8 is going to come rushed to market so full of security holes that it will have to be sold with a year supply of extra-strong condoms...

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's unfortunate that with all of Bill's money...

    ...Microsucks can not buy a CLUE on how to create a useful O/S.

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Down with MS

    Microsoft is not innovative with anything at all and simply copies by buying and destroying other innovators. They can do anything with their wealth. I hate them and their crud products.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Down with MS

      "Microsoft is not innovative with anything at all and simply copies by buying and destroying other innovators."

      MS had tablets out many, many years before the iPad and Android tablets.

      MS had smartphones out many, many years before iPhone and Android handsets.

      HTC made their name with Windows smartphone hardware.

      1. magnetik
        Thumb Down

        Re: Down with MS

        > MS had tablets out many, many years before the iPad and Android tablets

        Yes, but they were crap.

        > MS had smartphones out many, many years before iPhone and Android handsets.

        Yes, but they were also crap.

        > HTC made their name with Windows smartphone hardware.

        Yes, but they've wised up since then.

  35. Ilgaz

    This is why EULA always contains

    You must be wondering why all EULAs contain "you may not dissemble" term. That is in case someone checks their own exes and reports thousands of undocumented system calls.

    You can't code a modern html5 browser like Mozilla, webkit and opera and ship it on windows rt.

    I really hope this will be their "company crashing" type of mistake. They asking for it for decade now.

    1. fukudasan
      Devil

      Re: This is why EULA always contains

      "not dissemble"?

      Surely you mean "disassemble" . . . "dissembling" is the inevitable reaction here whenever M$ is mentioned . . . LOL

  36. stanimir
    Angel

    undocumented APIs

    Back in the day (ol' MS-DOS times) undocumented APIs were the bread and butter for the viruses. I have no doubts some of the 'undocumented APIs' will feature security vulnerabilities to explore. So developers, developers, developers... please play nice and don't use 'em. They are reserved for M$

  37. Drefsab

    I hope devs ignore this and destroy this abomination of an OS. Its so bad I won't even pirate it. Lets hope MS listen and stick to the usual pattern of good os bad os etc.

  38. Sgt_Oddball Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Wait, wait, i remember this one!

    Has MS not learned anything? It's history repeating it's self again in that vista came out, got hated windows 7 came out and was good enough so got accepted... is MS pushing out something massively crap to make IT admins hiss like (true) vampires infront of a cross only to release a version that works within 2 years? Also if this comes true, I reserve the right to post the comment of 'Called it!' without mocking..

  39. FatGerman
    Headmaster

    Foundational?

    If their code is as bad as their English then I doubt anyone will be able to understand how to use the APIs, let alone operate the interface.

  40. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Microsoft to internal developers?

    That would make more sense.

  41. Neoc

    Translation:

    Windows 8 will have to sets of API: a documented one for non-MS developers and an undocumented set of MS developers. This will allow us to degrade the documented API's performances "at will" to make our products look better to the general public.

  42. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I gotta say...

    Reading through these comments, there's a *lot* of misinformed and plain wrong people about aspects of Metro/WinRT/Win32/x86/ARM etc.. There's just too many for me to answer them all but seriously, a lot of you really need to clue up on what you're talking about before you spout so much idiotic anti-MS rubbish.

    1. Robert Heffernan

      Re: I gotta say...

      Sorry, but if you are going to call a whole thread load of people "wrong" and "anti-MS", you better have some evidence to prove your position.

      You said there is too much misinformation here that you can't respond to it all. Well how about posting some links to explain the largest stuff and letting us make up our own minds.

      I for one am not "anti-MS", I love Microsoft products and use them daily. I am more an anti-apple person. You just can't help but be frustrated when the company you love won't listen to its customers on something as important as their computing experience.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I gotta say...

        "Sorry, but if you are going to call a whole thread load of people "wrong" and "anti-MS", you better have some evidence to prove your position"

        I've been replying to some of the posts, but as AC, so it's tricky to tell when it's me.

        "You said there is too much misinformation here that you can't respond to it all. Well how about posting some links to explain the largest stuff and letting us make up our own minds."

        dev.windows.com

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I gotta say...

          Yeah its a reactionary fud-fest here.

          There is nothing in the MS blog post to suggest Metro Apps and the WIndows Store have one rule for Microsoft and one for external developers. Nothing.

          It is one thing to express a concern that this may be so (although sounds very unlikely in my experience having worked with Microsoft development directly on occasion, not just read a wiki page or two). It is quite another to state such conjecture as fact then build a castle of angst in the air based on that conjecture. Sowing FUD, as its known in the trade.

        2. Robert Heffernan

          Re: I gotta say...

          I understand where you are coming from, I been all over MSDN myself, I need to maintain apps in Win 8 so I need to know what I am facing.

          All I can see is WinRT/Metro may make it into Windows 9 but only to support those who bought into the rhetoric, it will be depreciated in Windows 10. Microsoft have a bad habit of coming out with some new you-beaut API and then drop it when it doesn't become overly popular. WPF is an example here, there has been no serious work done on WPF because the team was broken up to work on the WinRT/Metro package.

          I want a new native API that will be maintained in place of Win32, and not as another layer piled on top of it. I would like to see this new API completely supplant Win32 which will be reduced to a wrapper layer on top of the new API. Saying that, I know there is no chance of that happening, Microsoft can't stand behind any new product anymore.

          1. qwarty

            Re: I gotta say...

            @Robert. My own guess is that WinRT 2.0 will expand scope beyond Metro, adding desktop app capability with always-on multitasking. The intention to fleshing out its role as the new native Windows API. In this scenario WinRT gradually replaces Win32 on x86/x64 and expands capability on ARM. WPF is not a direct analogy as WinRT belongs to the OS group which is less likely to flip than the dev tools group. However your guess as to the future is as good as mine and you may well prove right about Win9/10.

            What a lot of people seem to miss about the whole Metro app deal is even if Windows 8 is a great success, Windows 7 will dominate the installed base for several years especially in corporate, education and other major markets. So it is mostly not an option to replace a software product with a Metro app, even if Metro style works for the app. The best we can consider is adding a Metro style option if we can afford do do the extra work. Considering options, developers will also be looking at OS X, iOS, Android, HTML5 and weighing cost benefits.

            The only thing that would change the Win7 dominance would be a dramatic change to the way Microsoft deal with updates. Not impossible but there is zero evidence this will happen before Windows 9.

            I agree with you on the lack of consistent support for WPF etc. Microsoft has a poor track record for commitment and the situation for desktop Windows apps is a mess, made worse by poor comminication over recent couple fo years. I'm no fan of Objective C but at least Apple has been consistent.

      2. Fatman

        Re: I love Microsoft products and use them daily.

        You need professional help.

        (/sarcasm)

  43. Tristan Young
    Thumb Down

    Sigh.... black pot, meet kettle.

    Only Microsoft would tell developers to not do the very thing Microsoft has done with Windows 8.

    Case in point: Metro

    Hypocrites.

  44. Infernoz Bronze badge
    Stop

    Expect Windows 8 to be rooted by users rather than crackers!

    MS shot their own foot by this forced disconnect to 'support' mobile devices, so I certainly won't even consider migration until they get rid of this joke of a UI 'upgrade'.

    If they continue with this nonsense I'll eventually be forced to Linux or FreeBSD, with W7 in a VM or Wine, if W8 can't be rooted by users.

  45. Danny 5
    Meh

    i'd rather

    Have a winphone (and i AM getting one soon) which runs the risk of crashing, but has a plethora of app, then a closed down platform. It's almost like choosing between Apple and Android.

    C'mon Microsoft, you can do better then this. People are actually starting to believe you're not the bad guy anymore, don't diminish that by this move.

This topic is closed for new posts.

Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2020