can they also remove the shit from windows 8 too?
Digital media playback in Windows 8 has fallen casualty to the savage economics of the PC industry and changing tastes in consumer viewing. We knew Windows Media Center would be sold at extra cost in Windows 8, but Microsoft now says you won’t be able to play DVDs on Windows Media Player in Windows 8. If you do want DVD …
It is illegal for Microsoft to continue to commingle IE and OS technology. The US Appellate court said so in plain English. Microsoft even appealled that decision (so clearly they know it is illegal) to the US Supreme Court. The Supreme Court said the decision stands.
Dropping a product so few consumers want and few use would also help give consumers the choice of which browser they want on their machines.
And, then Microsoft could be legal again. A prerequisite certainly if Microsoft wants to complain about anything competitors might be doing as far as antitrust is concerned.
"how do you intend to download a different browser without using the one they gave you?"
Click on the "Install Web Browser" icon on the desktop (or on Windows 8 I suppose that'd be a tile on the, erm, whatever). InstallShield installer asks you to choose from a detailed list of browsers (complete with glowing descriptions and pretty pictures), fetches your chosen browser using any of several protocols (including ftp and http), then installs it.
There, was that so hard?
It wasn't that which was illegal - it was MS lying to the court saying that IE was such an integral part of the OS that no other browser choice was possible after somebody demonstrated you could just delete a couple of dlls. When you are a monopoly supplier you tend to be noticed pulling this sort of thing.
The case started when MSFT blocked O'Reilly's competing web server on NT and claimed it was a fundamental OS design difference that stopped the workstation version handling more than 10 connections - before it was shown to be a single registry switch.
So it's really more like a car maker claiming that their cars can only be used with their brand of MP3 player and having a device that detects using an iPod near the car.
Riiiight....so now I have to go out and pay another $50 to get Windvd again just to watch a dvd on my machine if I want? How long till they stop shipping with audio codecs making you have to find something to play mp3s because we all know that internet is killing music. Windows 7 appears to be with me for quite some time.
Wait... your'e happy to pay maybe $250 for a Windows 8 upgrade, even though free and better OS's exist (e..g. Linux). But you're not happy to buy a DVD app?
Anyway why did you write "get WinDVD again"? If you already bought it once just use the old one yoiu already have.
Or better yet install VNC which is, again, both better and free.
Exactly my thoughts too. Just drop in VLC, no big deal.
Or just install FFDShow, though they will need to add DVD/Blu-Ray menu support to it.
I remember when Windows Media Player 7 came out and you need to have PowerDVD or WinDVD installed to have DVD playback. So things have went full circle and Windows Media Player now needs external codecs to play back DVDs and Blu-Rays (and old-skool VideoCDs- remember them?) again.
Uhh... Kinda stupid isn't ya?
Your brand new laptop with a Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge or AMD APU already has a hardware MPEG-2, H.264 and VC-1 decoder built into the chip and drivers. Your AMD or NVidia chip on your older machines that meet the specs for Windows 8 do too. They don't however have built in support for AC-3. So, Microsoft is simply removing a highly inefficient decoder which requires your CPU to consume an extra 10-35 watts of power during DVD playback favoring hardware decoders which consume milliwatts instead.
So, not only won't you know anything has changed, but you'll consume less power and extend your battery life at the same time.
What was the problem with this again? You had a point I'm sure.
Yes but then if the support for playback is already present the removal of media player is not a logical course of action. The question becomes how does the removal of DVD playback software from Windows 8 benefit Microsoft? If I was a maker of such software I'd not be accepting their explanations at face-value and would be watching MS very carefully. Follow the money.
> So, Microsoft is simply removing
Being unable to play DVDs while the MPEG2 decode support is BUILT INTO THE GPU?
That's pretty counter-intuitive.
What I care about is being able to play my DVDs, home movies, and HD-PVR recordings. Don't care about dodgey marketing rhetoric about "improving efficency". Stuff either works or it doesn't. It either works out of the box or not.
If it's not included, then are you left on your own to sort out things yourself without a proper package manager?
Apart from Windows 8 looking totally naff, another reason to stay with Windows 7 or another OS. While many will want bluray players, they still probably have a large collection of dvd's they will want to play. Got a feeling that Windows 8 will be the worst sales performance MS have, even once they force PC manufacturers to put it on new pc's.
Patents and licences go on for way too long.
" I don't know what crappy spec machine you must be trying to run it on?!?"
Dual core CPU @ 2.6GHz, 4 GB RAM, recent nvidia card (1024MB, can't remember the model), Creative 5.1 sound card. All latest drivers.
Video stutters, random coloured pixels flicker across the screen, menus and buttons flicker then disappear leaving artifacts behind.
None of these problems manifest in Windows on the same PC. Just Ubuntu.
Almost exact same spec as my box (1GB nVidia GT240) with 7.1 soundstill running 10.10. DVDs play fine.
I suspect PICNIC.
You should get on the forums and resolve the issue - might be the drivers, compositing or just a dodgy config; but this is hardly the place to do support.
When I tried to resolve an issue I had with Ubuntu by asking in the forums, I was called a 'Windroid troll' and told that Linux didn't have any issues and that I must be doing something wrong?
Windows might be more buggy then Linux, but at least the various help forums available for it actually, you know, HELP!
Something very wrong then.
I use DVDs on all my various Linux boxes without any problems also I can play HD720p on an old Celeron laptop and edit/play mp4 1080/50p videos on an old 2 core AMD using Nvidia/ VDPAU using ~5% CPU.
Sorry I can't really attempt to diagnose what's wrong but definitely something is.
> THe problem exists with some Nvidia drivers - the company does not provide them so
> someone has to hack and try and emulate, which unfortunately is often not ideal.
Erm, Nvidia /does/ provide Linux drivers. Problem is many distros do not agree with their licensing (specifically, the fact that there's a close-sourced binary blob smack in the middle of the drivers that NV refuses to open the source code to) and thus do not ship them with their default repos.
This has also caused said Nouveau driver project to kick off.
That said, the Nvidia official Linux drivers are far more mature than Nouveau, even supporting SLI and CUDA. Just a shame that some effort must be taken before they can be installed (and that they break as soon as a X or Kernel upgrade comes out) just because of NVidia's stubbornness.
> NEVER had that happen
Well, I run OpenSUSE Factory and Debian Sid with self-rolled kernels :P
You'll only see the drivers break when they come out with a new major XOrg release (usually because the ABI's too radically changed in the version), and the kernel break if you roll your own kernel and opt for the latest and greatest, and something changed in their structure too (iirc this happened in 3.1. Some of the kernel header's locations changed and as a net result it wreaked havoc on the driver's module source during compile-time).
I get good DVD playback on my EeePC 701 using a USB DVD drive running Ubuntu 10.10, and that is really an underpowered PC, being a Celeron clocked at less than 700MHz.
Methinks you need to look at the graphics options. Sounds like you've either not installed the Nvidia restricted drivers (which would be strange, as if that adapter was in the system when Ubuntu was installed, it should pick it up automatically), or something has disabled hardware rendering, and the system is using software rendering. Try installing and using the Nvidia driver settings tool from the Ubuntu repository (no, that's no more difficult than installing drivers from CD that came delivered with your graphics card).
You sound like a Microsoft stooge. Linux works fine playing DVDs (actually smoother than Windows) unless one or more of these apply:
1) You have really ancient or ghetto hardware (which wouldnt play DVDs under windows either)
2) Youre using a REALLY old version/distro of Linux, like maybe 5+ years old.
3) You didn't install the display driver.
Before you whine about Linux sucking more than Windows because you have to install a driver, please be aware that you have to install display drivers in Windows too.
I have a set of GTX260s in one gaming rig which I set up for Linux gaming testing.
SLI not only works, I was capable of playing Team Fortress II on it quite well. And movie playback works fine as intended, even large HD movies.
Of course, I need a better distro. OpenSUSE sucks, with all the packages being so badly outdated and all.
You might want to check if there's something specific to your set up. I would check your graphics card drivers for a start as stutter suggests the CPU is decoding things. (Not sure about Nvidia but my AIT card handles all the decoding on the card and I'm sure any recent Nvidia must provide the same). Just for reference, my Debian system can play DVDs with no problem (and Ubuntu is built on Debian). Now getting it to play Blu-Ray was a challenge, but I got there in the end.
I'd suggest you use a Live-CD ( or USB if you can boot from one) of a modern distro like OpenSuse 11.4 or 12.1 ) and see before you install if the wireless problem is still there. If it is then your wireless system might be rather a rare one. Most wireless chipsets are now supported, some of them officially by the manufacturers.
No idea why you are getting downvoted on that piece of logic. I'd love to know why.
I havent used MS's native DVD playback or Media Centre in years. I just install VLC as standard on any PC I build.
Although I also cant remember the last time I watched a DVD on my PC. Most of my PCs sit within 10 feet of the TV which is a better solution for playback.
Once again this is another example of herd rage over nothing.
Sandy Bridge and/or Ivy Bridge? When you disable the MS video codec and use a QuickSync codec included with Intel drivers, you use almost no power making it possible to cross and Atlantic watching DVDs the whole way on a single charge while your CPu is basically idle and the QuickSync decoder consumes milliwatts?
VLC playback consumes about 20% of my CPU for DVD playback, Windows Media consumes about 2%.
It's not really included, is it?
I mean, if you have to pay a third party provider before you can use it, it isn't part of the system, it is just something you can buy and then you'll get any additional benefits - a bit like any other piece of software.
It won't look good on the marketing blurb so why do they bother? And if MS isn't adding all the extra bits and bobs that people apparently want, why should people pay for a MS OS? It's easy to stick a linux variant onto a PC nowadays and you'll end up with the same functionality.
Patents and copyrights will slowly strangle MS. Ha ha.
"Patents and copyrights will slowly strangle progress and innovation"
It was Newton who said "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Just a shame that these days 'standing on shoulders' is seen as copyright/patent abuse.
There are many distros where you get DVD codecs, etc out the box - Linux Mint/Mandriva, pclinuxos (my mum uses that one..) are examples - you have to do absolutely nothing....
Oh well, total morons will stick with windows and I couldn't care less - they deserve Windows 8 - they're stuck in the matrix and need to wake up - I'm sure that Windows 8 customers enjoy being farmed.....
Shame its not built into the OS (unlike some version of Linux..)
Which all this opensource software surely your better off using an opensource OS - and one you can actually still get a real desktop for...
Anyone who buys Windows 2008 on an ARM system has essentially just bought a brick (you can NEVER change)
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Dunno about you but VLC(for windows can't comment on the linux one) half the time for me gets a ton of artifacts and broken audio I've tried it for the last 5 years and always experience the same exact thing. I've tried it on literally 30 different PC's with specs all over the place with AVI's OGM's,.MP3s, MKV's, and DVD's. The same exact files played flawlessly on MPC, winamp, and hell even windows media player on the same systems. So no the down vote isn't because of people being WMP junkies its because some of us don't have good experience with it.
For the record I use MPC on my systems. It uses less CPU time, and plays files perfectly for me.
VLC is great and I use it whereever I can. However there is something up with the OSX version.
It may just be performace. When playing HD stuff (I only go for 720 since it is an original intel macbook) I get occasional pausing and stuttering. I also note the machien does not heat up so it appears not to be hitting anything near max cpu usage.
i have recently installed mplayer instead and get no such issues, however at times the machine does get hot and the fan comes on as expected.
I'm not too pleased with the whole "marketplace development". I think its only a matter of time before more and more components are stripped from Windows where customers are left to fend for themselves using the Marketplace. Of course the price for the OS doesn't go down, even though it provides less functionality.
And considering that developers need to pay to publish stuff through the marketplace and customers most likely will need to buy stuff from the marketplace leaves MS in the middle of the revenue; generating more income with less effort.
Not too sure I like where this is going.
Didn't this always used to happen with older Windows anyway?
I have a whole bunch of CyberLink PowerDVD install disks and keys because every time we bought an 2000/XP laptop or PC, they didn't include the MPEG2 codecs and the workaround was that all manufacturers bundled "something" that would play MPEG2 for no cost - either with the machine or the DVD drive if you were upgrading. That "something" usually cost them pence in bulk and consisted of some DVD playback software that you didn't even install most of the time.
I still have the pile for our XP machines here, still have the problem that Media Player doesn't play DVD by default on a clean Windows XP install (you have to install that bit of software first or - my solution that bettered my employer's - use VLC and just make sure you can prove you have the PowerDVD disks, and hence MPEG playback license, somewhere). Then the whole EU software patents things went a bit up the wall and basically the Fraunhoefer Institute's patents meant nothing any more so we could just use playback software at our whim.
Isn't this just a return to an earlier policy rather than some shocking new omission from the OS?
I had forgotten that 2000/XP couldn't play DVDs. I do remember an XP Thinkpad I had came with WInDVD 4 and a subsequent XP Dell Laptop with PowerDVD 4.
I don't know how I feel about this - myself and most power users have always used third party apps such as VLC so this would have no effect. I did ask most of the noobs I know and they watch DVDs on a dedicated player and never knew that their Vista PC could play DVDs. This feature will probably be missed by the masses as much as SLIP.
Even though I hate the new WIndows 8 interface maybe MS is on to something here - The majority simply won't care that their new PC can't play DVDs.
... I think the chances of that happening are fairly slim.
But you're welcome to propose an alternative. On the relevant mailinglist or you could try and float the idea first on the IRC channel.
Tangentially, VLC has a piracy problem in the sense that there's sites that offer various versions or even just links to same for a fee* that are in fact not affiliated with videolan and none of your money ends up with the project or its developers. Some versions even come with malware or snooping browser bars or whatnot. It's saddening to see people demand support "because they paid for the download", only they paid someone else and didn't notice. They always get the answer "please ask the people you did pay."
Best just fetch the thing for free from the original source and if you like donate via the project's own website. Most readers here will do so anyway, but plenty of non-techies get caught--and with an user base estimated in the tens of millions, even duping a small fraction is good monies. Happens with other free software too, so buyer beware. This is something you might want to warn your relatives about.
* Which might turn out to be a yearly subscription with a six-month notice period or something, read the fine print!
presumably, in the grown up world, if you try and sell something that uses tech from someone else, you need to pay for it.
MS going to pull DVD playback? ok, but id expect the drop in price to be noticable, i dont use WMC or WMP for dvd playback, i use TMC, or MPC so not bothered to be honest, so long as its reflected in the price
all you lot saying linux does this an that, im pretty sure its because its free, if a distro tried to sell it without a licence they would be in a world of trouble, infact im sure there are some codecs that cant be shipped in a distro for that reason, all be it they are easily available, an often ignored by smaller distros
My understanding is they can't be shipped in certain countries, and that the distro that do ship the codecs operate/claim to operate in a country where they can be shipped.
I notice Ubuntu now have you check a box to say you want to download and install restricted software, which I guess puts the onus on the user to ensure they are in a territory where the software is legal.
^ Based on the understanding I have and no further research, feel free to correct me.
This is fact now my friends, to be able to play a DVD requires a licence to be legal, that is fact, if the software does not have a licence its using IP with out the permission of the owners, if I were from the MPAA id be saying words like theft and stealing but im not so I hope you understand what I mean!
Now, some software may well have a licence and remain free, but there will be some advertising / back room deal to allow them to do this, good examples are when you buy an optical drive, usually you get a OEM copy of a player, its free, its also shit, cut down and very limited but it works and promotes the software player and usually nags you to "upgrade", oh and its licenced!
So if you run Linux, and if you are using software that allows playback then unless that is licenced then you are using software without the owners of that technologies consent, the irony of doing so in an OS made famous for being Open Free and (GPL) licenced to fuck with restrictions and/or usage policies is very apparent and somewhat hypocritical. Now I don't know what DVD solutions are available so perhaps they all have licences and if so, that's great, but that's not always the case, or and splashing some prompt on the screen to pass the buck to the end user is still IP theft if there isnt a valid licence.
MS pulling the plug on DVD playback is one thing which wont bother me, the somewhat confusing media upgrade packs are troubling and no one has mentioned what will happen to my legal WMC on Win 7 ultimate after I upgrade?? oh and I hope there is a noticeable drop in price MS, or this move could back fire big time!
>> the irony of doing so in an OS made famous for being Open Free and (GPL) licenced to fuck with restrictions and/or usage policies is very apparent and somewhat hypocritical.
Wow Troll or Microsoft employee, you badly need to check your facts. The GPL is actually CopyLEFT, any "restrictions" would only be perceived as such to organs like Microsoft already looking to impose their own worse restrictions in order to cash-in on others freely donated hard work.
FYI the GPL ensures that all the end-users EXPLICITLY CAN do with it what they like in perpetuity. The only "Usage Policy" is that if they distribute the program with changes, they also include the source code so others can do the same.
Ok so I can take your GPL code and, put it in my own program and sell it off?
no, I cant
For the same reason you shouldn't use unlicensed DVD playback software. The only reason Linux can get away with it, is because the software used to playback DVDs is made by people who would be too costly to sue and the gains to small a return. There are also some countries that don't allow software to be patentable I think France is one of them
But the fact remains whether its illegal in our country or not,
IF you watch DVDs on your system you are using someone else's technology to do so and if that software doesn't have a licence you are doing so without permission, which is similar to me taking your work, and selling it off as my own...
its not about liking MS, it has nothing to do with them other than the fact they have been licencing the use of DVD playback in WMP ( in a very crude poor way) if they hadn't licenced it, MS would have been sued to hell and back
All im saying is, don't assume that because Linux if free and all cool people use it that you are correct in playing back DVDs, if it was included with the distro then its likely that it would cost to much to claim against them however you know that there are some instances of this and thus they cant directly install it, and if its a third party program then theres even less chance if them getting pulled up....still doesn't make it right.
your still missing the point.
If I make some fancy new way of viewing films, I then licence the use of that technology out to other people, it doesn't matter about the content, that's for someone else to worry about, the fact is I own the tech on the content delivery system, people then pay me to use that system, if they don't then they are in effect in violation of the patents around that device.
just because you come along and rip off my work allow people to do it for free doesn't change the fact you are using/breaking my IP/patents to do the job
Take Microsoft, if it was so easy to rip off someone else's work without paying for it, they would have added BD support to the Xbox a long time ago, they don't because that would mean they have to pay Sony a licence not only for the hardware but also the usage of that hardware, the playback of the disks.
What makes Linux above the law? because the people who make this software conveniently live in a place that couldn't give a funk about IP/patent protection?
Now, if you want to do that and watch DVDs on your Linux box then fine, I couldn't care less, but don't come on here saying that Linux is whiter than white and better than everyone else because its free, that's BS, everyone else sticks to the law / the spirit of the law, MS included (in this case) just because in the Linux world (perhaps a better word would be "Freetard" world as VLC etc is available on Windows too) doesn't make it right
I am "stealing" nothing by playing my own paid-for copy of some DVD with whatever program I choose. The only reason there is even any sort of "ownership" associated with playback is as a backhanded non-cricket extension to copyright law that shouldn't be tolerated anyways.
The physical copy is legitimately acquired and it's my personal property. I should have the legal right to decode it . Period.
Your nonsense is EXACTLY why this whole nonsense about the h264 monopoly cartel is such a problem. Our culture and personal information is held hostage to these corporate interests that want to take advantage of everyone.
These kinds of patent cartels are a threat to everyone and should be taken more seriously.
Ok, so anyone who wants to make money out of something they develop need not bother because someone else will then do the same thing for free making the original work redundant?
As I said, the world revolves around money, when things that get developed for a global scale out, people generally intend to make money out of it
What you are in fact saying is this.
Anything developed should be free to all, to use as and how you wish without fear of prosecution.
Im sorry, but in the real world people need to earn money and if a company develops something like blue-ray playback, then they have every right to sell it off. Sony and Phillips more or less developed the CD starting way back in the 70s, it probably cost the a small fortune to work it all out.
they made an absolute mint from doing so, effectively making money out of any CD made up until recently when many of the patents ran out.
Now that's mostly hardware, but the same principle applies to software used to keep the data stored on a disc in a given format allowing playback on a device, if someone develops a way of storing data allowing for playback on a separate device then why should they not be paid for the right to use it?
If you make something for free and it gets used world wide, ie, something like DVD playback then that's fine, I hope you feel noble about your gift to humanity. Just because someone wants to make money out of something they develop doesn't make them a bad person.
lastly I am aware that France doesn't sign up to the spirit of the law, and European "law" if there is such a thing, is about as clear as mud. But just because someone broke something doesn't make it right to then use it.
But we are getting way of the point here, you all saying Linux is better because they circumvent the law or the spirit of the law if you must, doesn't make it better then Windows, and correct me if im wrong, but DVD playback in Linux is a third party function anyway, the same software is available for windows, which makes Linux better because? they distribute semi illegal software with the OS?
About your ignorance of GPL? I think not.
Regarding the whole CSS thing, might I suggest the following point?
Commercial DVDs are encrypted, in order to prevent unauthorised copying of copyright content. Manufacturers of DVDs, DVD players and software all signed up to a confidential licensing agreement to protect the encryption method. But one of them screwed up, someone reverse-engineered the algorithm using their key and now DVDs aren't protected any more. That means there's no longer any point in signing up to the confidential licensing agreement, whose purpose was to protect DVD content. CSS is officially no longer a trade secret., and VideoLAN has developed software for playing DVDs that doesn't use the leaked decryption key. Being French they don't have to worry about the DMCA, and under European law they're pretty much in the clear. Of course US residents need to worry about the DMCA, but that's their problem, not ours.
That's worth a downvote <done>. If I buy a DVD, I own it and will damn well play it on any device I like. If purchasing the format doesn't come with an implied license to play it, there's something very wrong - if not actually fraudulent - in the licensing arrangements.
But wait, what's this I see in your post - "I were from the MPAA id be saying words like theft and stealing but im not",and then a little further on, "is still IP theft if there isnt a valid licence" - ok, I get it now. You're just confused.
ha, if you buy a DVD you have the righty to watch that DVD for personal use. you do not have the right to decode that DVD or even play it.
That right comes in the form of a licence that ALL DVD player manufactures have to pay and all legitimate software DVD plays also have to play.
Just because you can, doesn't mean its right.
I can download PowereDVD or TMC just now, and have it working in a few min, doesn't make it right though does it, unless I pay for the use of that software.
Since the alleged offence is a copyright violation, the most that the IP owners can expect to recover through the courts is the money that I paid to the "vendor" of my free OS.
They haven't sold anything so they haven't made any money off the back of someone else's cleverness. Quite the reverse, in fact, since a wide deployment of *players* increases the market for content for those players, and the owners of the DVD IP presumably make money every time someone *encodes* a film and *sells* it as a DVD.
So its one rule for one and one for another?
So using that logic, im going to come over to your house and use your computer. But its ok, because im not making any money out of it.
You might get a bit cheesed off with that id imagine.
Or lets put this another way im going to download DVDs and xbox games, its all fair game as im not selling it on or even distributing it, so theres not losing any money.
Or how about whilst im downloading that DVD im going to download the latest version of Windows to go with it., its not like im selling it and its actually benifical to MS as ill tell everyone how wonderful it is...
Im sorry your logic is flawed, MS pulled the DVD playback to save money on the licence, now the question is will we notice, I hope we do otherwise it would be a waste of time.
The "free" alternatives on any OS "should" pay a licence fee to do so, many of them dont.
If we ALL did this, the people designing tech wouldn't bother any more, why? because we'd just rip of their work and have a free version, they wouldn't make any money and that really does put a whole downer on the development side to things
Outside of the utopia of Linux people have to make money by making shit up and selling it. There is nothing to stop a legal piece of DVD playback software on Linux. However judging from the replies on here very few people would use it because they seem to believe that everyone elses work is theirs for the taking.
Any licence required to watch a DVD was already included in the original purchase price of the DVD. Once it is your property, nobody can restrict you from using it for its rightful purpose.
If you want to argue different, it's going to end up with Hollywood refunding the full purchase price of every DVD ever sold in countries with strong consumer protection laws, plus compensation for whatever can be claimed for and both sides' legal costs.
The movie studios are fully aware of all this, which is why they prefer to talk big and scary as opposed to showing their complete and utter lack of leg to stand on in court.
Ive not down voted anyone yet as you are all entitled to your own opinion, and Linux is a grey matter I will admit, however I have to in this case because you are simply so wrong.
All Legitimate hardware and software plays must pay for the licence to decode your DVD otherwise it is not legitimate.
That is a fact of which there is no question. You pay for it in terms of the price you pay for that player, it will be included in the cost. There are some "free" OEM software players that usually come with hardware, these are also paid for but the cost is not passed on to you, its hoped that you then upgrade your crap version to the proper version. There could also be "free" players that pays up front for the licence then sells advertising space to make up the payment, thus again, to you It appears "free"
However the large majority of Solutions to play back DVDs on any system including VLC / MPC etc do not employ these methods and do not have licences to do so, therefor they are not legitimate in the wider world, (although locally in some countries as ive said they couldn't give a funk about it or they pass the responsibility of breaking the law on to you, )
"Didn't you need the capacity of a DVD disk to hold a complete windows install anyway?"
1) it's a "disc"
2) they're not discontinuing the support for the physical media (hard to imagine how they could) but for DVD video.
Although given you're managing to see conspiracy in this, I'm not surprised you're confused.
1) it's a "disc"
Actually, if we're on the subject of correcting others, it's a "__", since the second "D" in "DVD" stands for disc or disk, depending on your brand of English. (The "V" stands for video or versatile, depending on your brand of country, if I remember correctly.)
DVD doesn't actually stand for anything - it is officially a meaningless initialism. As for disk/disc that is more to do with the technology than the locale - magnetic disK but optical disC. I don't know where exactly that convention originated but it seems to be true in all anglophone countries.
For computer literate people this isn't a problem. Any reasonable person would be playing their DVDs on Linux anyway which is far better anyway.
And sure we can suggest VLC but the problem is this is going to hit most of their customers, the people that don't know enough about computers to get by.
They'll be used to just pushing the disk in and it plays. WMP may be rubbish but they don't know any better. This is just going to make Windows look bad.
Also not everyone has broadband or unlimited broadband or feels compelled to pay for netflix to watch something they have on DVD. The US doesn't exactly have a stellar record on broadband so it's an issue for a lot of their customers, not just people living in the middle of the Amazon.
But why should I care, Linux provides what I want so I can't see myself even considering Windows 8.
It's funny how people claim that every computer literate person uses Linux, as if it's some inescapable conclusion once you discover what an AND gate is.
I know around a hundred people who are not only computer literate, but count amongst them some of the best coders on the planet.
Not one of them uses Linux as their primary desktop OS.
Linux is for people who aspire to be computer literate, but haven't yet achieved the workload which requires them to stop wasting time learning arcana about stuff that doesn't matter.
Have you seen the kinds of sites that host multimedia components for Windows and MCE?
That kind of crap right there is reason enough to dump Windows for a Mac at least.
It's mind boggling what DOS Lemmings will put up with. It never ceases to amaze me. I know it shouldn't since I remember the old nonsense with memory management. Still does though.
"Linux is for people who aspire to be computer literate, but haven't yet achieved the workload which requires them to stop wasting time learning arcana about stuff that doesn't matter."
If you want to argue that Win7 is a nicer desktop envrionement and easier to work with than KDE, you can argue that. If you want to say it's better than the hideous thing that Gnome has become, you don't even have to argue that. But to say Linux is only for people with low work-loads is just trolling. I have Windows 7 for my main desktop and then I have Debian running alongside it for development work. I would not want to be without either one and I can assure you that my workload is high enough, thankyouverymuch.
... lots of "unauthorized" downloads offered with the requisite codecs from some other distribution. Some of them will turn out to be malware vectors, just like today only moreso. Fun.
Also seeing how their boot from usb "feature" is only offered locked away behind an enterprise contract, I think it's not much of a stretch to they're on a greed high. That, or they royally screwed up the licence fees negotiations. Or possibly both. It doesn't seem to be a particularly smart move, though.
Presumably somebody can just publish the relevant codec on Windows Marketplace for free? Microsoft will then run their standard malware checks so it should be safe. I'm assuming that, as others have said on here, Linux gets to include them for free because they aren't actually selling them (either that they steal them), so I assume that same rule would apply to free Windows downloads.
Presumably when you try and play a DVD widows will offer to find you the required codec in the market place and provide a list of options to install one.
My Android tablet didn't come with all the needed codecs, Archos offers to sell them for £8 extra, so this is not a Windows specific issue.
"Also seeing how their boot from usb "feature" is only offered locked away behind an enterprise contract, I think it's not much of a stretch to they're on a greed high."
The boot from USB feature isn't an equivalent to, e.g. Linux on a pendrive. It actually is an enterprise tool designed to allow sysadmins to set up secure, portable distributions that integrate into their network. E.g. for temporary workers or those that want to bring their own desktop (BYOD). That's why it's in the Enterprise edition. It's not a 'boot from USB' in the sense of "hey let's just install it to a USB stick instead of a harddrive". They're different things, that's why it's in the Enterprise edition.
"What’s going on is an attempt to pare the costs of PCs and keep down the price and maximise the margins."
Or what's really going on is the continual chipping away of desktop PC functionality to make crappy tablets look more attractive. Then sell stuff that used to come bundled with the OS as an additional extra cost "app".
The really sad thing is people will accept this and try to justify being ripped off by calling people "dinosaurs" who don't want to forced into Fisher Price computing.
With every article I read about Windows 8 (yes I have installed and tried it) my incredulity level increases. Microsoft seem hell bent on travelling the road to self destruction. Either that or they're smoking some really serious shit in Redmond.
Actually, MPEG-2 is expensive!
H.264 is much cheaper as well as being a better codec.
That said, given that MS are part of the MPEG-LA in the first place, I would have thought their cost was zero (even if it's an out-and-back) while an OEM's cost is high.
I suspect this may actually be an attack on MPEG-LA. I wonder why.
OK, WMP was crap, is crap and will always be unusable crap only infesting the computer with MSFT's own flavour of DRMs. First thing I do on any PC is removing any file associations with WMP for all media I am planning to regularly use.
Then, I wasn't aware that WMP ever came with MPEG2 and AC3 filters included. Maybe in Win7 it did? Or maybe they are talking about the code that processes DVD navigation such as menues, VM commands etc? As per above WMP was *always* crap at that.
Now that would a definite Windows 8 selling point!
Microsoft really think people will pay for Media Player? Even Apple don't charge for iTunes, and VLC has become so much more popular due it being able to play media formats that Media Player just can't manage, mkv and flv come to mind.
Yes, this idea of removing DVD playback capability from Windows is prima facie absurd.
However. Windows users already are accustomed to having to hunt down and install third party software in order to perform even the most mundane of tasks. They'll hardly notice. As others have noted it'll merely result in an increase in VLC downloads.
But I would still be interested just how much DVD licensing money are we talking about here. Considering the amount of Windows licenses sold, I can't help but feel that it's pretty minimal. I wonder if such a tiny price reduction is really worth another round of negative PR for Microsoft.
The figure I heard being bandied about some years ago was $50 per Windows license. Not chump change.
Microsoft licenses a lot of third party technology. Sometimes it pays a flat-fee, sometimes the licensor demands unit royalties. Other providers distribute the same stuff but more often than not they don't get sued simply because they won't get the big moolah you get from hitting a Microsoft/Apple/Google ...
It could never have been $50 because that is greater than the cost to OEMs and Microsoft would therefore *irrefutably* have been selling Windows *at a loss* when they were under investigation in the US and EU for monopoly abuse.
Even given Microsoft's history of sailing close to the legal wind, that just doesn't seem likely.
Actually no because it's likely that the owner of the IP didn't want Microsoft to ship anything it could get more revenue for directly, so it put a ridiculously high price on it. Much like Adobe having a hissy for Microsoft putting freely available (to everybody else) PDF drivers into Office.
No bizzarely the Zune Movie selection is far far superior to Netflix or Lovefilm.
It has all the latest releases in it which both the others lack. I've had Lovefilm on the Xbox for three months now and I've seen no new major movies added to it in that time.
I just don't like having to buy MS points to rent the movies. Bit expensive.
I think this is a sensible move. Other platforms are going optical disc-less, so why include the licence cost for playback from a device that might not be fitted to your hardware? Don't imagine the coming Ultrabooks are going to have room for optical drives.
Heck, I never thought I'd agree with MS about anything!
Linux machines are most likely to be running Open Source applications, which don't generally bother with restricting users from doing what they want with their own property that they have bought and paid for with the fruits of their own effort, by hand or by brain. And even if they did, judicious insertion of a few comment marks is all it takes to un-restrict you.
Hay, the irony!
yes, you rip out the CSS, well done, however you are aware that there are no Free ways to play a DVD unless you do so without permission, ie illegally?
Free is somewhat subjective as its not always a case of paying money up front but my point stands, if you use Linux to watch DVDs and use software that isn't licenced then your doing so without permission. Now given that Linux is tied to GPL rather tightly which usually has restrictions of use with in it but is generally followed because that is the LICENCE that was given to you, its amazing that you may condone the breaking of a licence agreement, or in this case no even getting a licence and just stealing it!
Ignorance is not an excuse
Why should microsoft incure a few pence charge when the end user can pay them the same price and allow a 3rd party to rape them for a a few pounds instead of pence - bravo microsoft - bravo.
Maybe whilst there removing DVD playback they could increase the prices in the UK by upto 30% and blame it on difference on EURO price difference to GBP (which aint realy changed over past 5 years). Though given that Australia over the past 5 years has become more valuable compared to the dollar by over 30% and no sign of any form of price cuts in that period I would have to say I'm unsure about this word fairness in the dictionary thesedays.
That all said I actualy prefer Vista over windows 7 and suspect that I'd prefer Windows 7 over Windows 8. But I knew how to use windows 3.11 so that probably explains it.
So I suppose come windows 11 we will have to buy a application just to open a file and another application per file format. This will lead to the EU demands that the user has choice on the application they use to install and buy applications.
Bottom line I say this:
I note that the new version of windows has DVD playback as an optional extra. May I firmly point out that every version of windows since version 1.0 thru to any furture version has one optional extra you have no control over at all and that is the user. For this user I will be optionaly not purchase your new operationing system as I shall be using a Linux desktop which has DVD playback.
Vista User }->
"Right guys.... New version of Windows... Fantastic computing experience... Brainstorm away!"
"I have an idea!"
"Let's deliberately make it RUBBISH and HARD TO USE for common, everyday tasks that our customers might want to use it for"
"Yeah, man. I mean, wow, that's such an awesome idea...."
Well, it will do that, if there was no Dolby on the original source programme to begin with!
It's a two-ended process. The recording is made with Dolby encoding, which -- by means of a non-linear transfer function -- gives a bit more emphasis to the frequencies where noise is most obtrusive. At the time of playback, the signal -- along with any noise it may have picked up -- is subjected to the inverse transfer function, undoing the deliberate distortion introduced in recording, and most of the noise disappears.
If you haven't got a Dolby decoder, turning down the treble control a bit will make it sound tolerable.
but what is the OEM price that they have to do this stupidity?
What about Blu Ray disk (BD) video playback?
What about Media Center [sic] MPEG2 for DTT & Satellite and MPEG4 H.264] for DTT USB sticks* and Satellite cards?
[* Some countries and UK after October 2012 use MPEG4 for SD not just HD]
This seems like shooting their toes off at the knee. A gift to OS 10 and Linux.
It probably reminds you of a car, particularly if the optional extras are outrageously priced.
Or maybe it reminds you of Apple's entire product line, for which you *could* buy optional extras from third parties, but they won't quite match the base product (either in visual styling or function) so anyone who buys into the basic product tends to stick with the brand for all the add-ons.
I wouldn't, but I understand that plenty of people with large disposable incomes do. It could be that MS are now chasing that demographic, having figured that their business desktop is a monopoly and so *cannot* deliver the growth that the shareholders demand.
Wow, I wasn't even aware that Vista/7 could play DVDs without additional software! Knew that WMP couldn't play a DVD on 98 or XP until I installed PowerDVD -- and even then only in a slower, less customisable, and generally crappier way than PowerDVD itself, thereby rendering said WMP functionality entirely pointless. However given that various manufacturers (e.g. Acer, Sony) include extra media player crapware on their current Win7 machines anyway, I don't think the removal of in-built functionality that's only been there since Vista is going to affect the end user too much. And anyone buying and installing a retail copy of Win8 is going to be literate enough to download VLC. But either way, I think anyone using WMP for watching DVDs is doing themselves a disservice.
If I want to watch a DVD I usually use either my Bluray player, attached to my TV, or slap the disc into my desktop Mac and use either Apple's DVD Player or VLC. In the rare event that I want to watch a DVD on a WinBox, I use VLC; my Toshiba laptop, for example, comes with a perfectly horrible kludge (it _still_ hates Aero! It's only been _SIX YEARS_ since Aero shipped with Vista, for Christ's sake! And the Aero hatred ain't the worst thing about it!) and VLC is far superior. I never even _thought_ about using Windows Media to play a movie. I pretty much never watch videos when I'm running Linux (Linux is for servers, so long as you don't need Active Directory, and I have better things to do than to watch video on a server) but when I do want to watch a movie while running Linux (usually on the same Toshiba laptop, running Ubuntu 9.04 'cause everything since then has been rubbish) I just crank up VLC.
This appears to be much ado about nothing.
I prefer WMP. I've run the same files in both VLC & WMP to do a side by side comparrison. It appears (to my eyes anyway) that the colours are better in WMP. I can achieve the same results if I tinker with VLC but I have to do custom tweaks every time I play a file as opposed to WMP which just works. Believe me when I say I never thought those words would flow from my fingers in relation to a Microsoft product! Truthfully, I find WMP + CCCP = epic win.
But I guess as the kids say...YMMV
Its pretty obvious Hollywood/MPAA are slowly moving to kill off all production and any way of buying or renting movies on actual media entirely. They want to move everyone to a streaming model and make sure you can't even have a local copy (under your control) so they can also charge you up the wazoo.
This is all about Microsoft facilitating the MPAA by trying to make DVDs less popular even at the cost of making the OS less useful for its actual customers/users. Its another perfect example of how Microsoft doesn't give a shit about the little people who buy their products, because they're sure they will keep buying Microsoft regardless, like sheep. And they're right.
That could be the case, or.........just maybe it is a correlation with the increasing popularity of laptops over desktops and even tablets over laptops that is leading to a market where an ever larger proportion of machines are sold with no media drive at all.
I mean what percentage of a target market needs to have no need of something before that feature is removed. Especially in the case where that feature costs real money in terms of a license?
The studios do not want people to stop renting or buying optical media, either DVD or BD. They actually want people to rent and buy MORE optical media. That's where they are making their money. Everyone else on the Reg is saying how MPAA tries to stop progress by not allowing online distribution.
This is only Microsoft's move to cut their costs.
It's been that way for ages.
E.g. When MS talked about "trusted computing", it wasn't really about users (and IT departments) trusting they wouldn't get virus infestations etc, it was more about media companies being able to trust the alleged end to end content protection e.g. Blu-Ray to Windows to HDCP-connected display, DRM-infested stream to Windows to whatever.
With the greatest possible respect: So what.
You (and me) are not the target market. People with an existing PC are not the target market.
The target market is the Windows 8 new PC market. In that sector, MS can either charge extra $$$ for a basic system customer to enable an online upgrade via the marketplace so Win8 can do what used to be included in the price of Win7. Or MS can convince the system builders to bundle a higher grade (ie more expensive) Win8 licence that does include DVD playing etc.
The consumer-oriented volume system builders (HP Presario, Dell equivalent, etc) may bundle a more expensive licence. Or if companies like Cyberlink haven't by then been driven out of the market by MS bundling a DVD player in Win7, the consumer suppliers might revert to bundling PowerDVD or whatever's current.
Be interesting to see how this plays out.
Never have done and have always been pretty happy with Windows so excuse my ignorance but what's wrong with grabbing the K-Lite codec pack which includes Media Player Classic and going from there? I've always used it (except for a brief go at VLC) and it works fine for all my video/DVD needs and plays anything I throw at it absolutely fine. Never did like the media player that was built-in to Window - too many bells and whistles for me.
As for Linux - every Linux user I've ever met has been so far up their own arse it's been impossible to get useful information out of them to help with a Linux install. It's always been simpler to go back to the old and (more or less) trusted Windows. This is a common problem, I'm told.
Currently using XP (on laptop) and 7 (desktop).
...and the MS monopoly is doing it to you in grand fashion. Seems the whole of the corporations and entertainment industry have colluded to end optical storage as of late, doesn't it?
They wouldn't want you keeping user created content longer than the 5min life span of today's typically delicate short lived 2T HD's.
Also, I'M BLOODY SICK AND F****** TIRED OF FEATURES DISAPPEARING FROM THE MS OS with every new version. REPLACE STEVE BALLMER NOW!
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