back to article Nokia dinged with shareholder lawsuit over poor Lumia sales

As sure as rain follows a Met Office drought warning, we can expect a share price crash to be followed by a shareholder lawsuit. Now it's Nokia's turn. A class action suit naming Nokia's CEO Steve Elop, and CFO Timo Ihamuotila has been filed by New York law firm, and serial class action rottweilers, Robbins, Geller, Rudman & …


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  1. Antony Riley

    Well they're kinda right, apart from the bit about "Did not tell share holders".

    It was blindingly obvious from the point when they made the deal with the beast onwards.

    1. Bob Vistakin

      Windows 9 and WP9 will make everything alright.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Bob Vistakin - Maybe, maybe not

        But I'm confident the duo Windows 10 and WP10 will do it for sure.

        1. eulampios

          Re: @Bob Vistakin &AC

          It's going to be Windows11 and WP11, since for success they need a prime number.

          1. The First Dave

            Re: @Bob Vistakin &AC

            You're all wrong - the real saviour will be Win12 and WinPhone12, though neither will be called that exactly...

  2. Gordon 10 Silver badge

    Right idea wrong choice

    Burning platforms was destruction of shareholder value.

    Selling a soso smartphone isn't.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Right idea wrong choice

      Spot on. And that's what the legal beagles should be suing Elop and those who appointed him for.

      A decade after Gerald Ratner demonstrated that a business can't survive if the CEO speaks out against his own product, Elop comes in, pisses all over the existing assets of Nokia, and thinks it will all work out by outsourcing 100% of future phone software to Microsoft, and as far as I can see, outsourcing almost all remaining in house phone manufacture to the far east. What does that leave him with, apart from a big fat undeserved pay packet?

      The answer to that should be that Nokia is a brand. But having emptied his own bladder all over it, he's got one hell of a job to turn that around. Added to which if you want to be a successful phone handset maker, you need some worthwhile asset beyond a brand. There are some brands (eg BMW) that could put their label on a turd and still sell it - but that's not some abstract concept of brand, it is built and maintained by the standard of most of its products. Take that away and the brand soon fades.

      In the case of fast moving technology products, there's a need not just for adequate quality, but critically for continuous change and innovation. Apple (for all the fact that I wouldn't buy their products) are a very innovative firm. Samsung and LG are very strong in screen technology. Sony offer quirky for those that want it.

      What, with no in house software, overlooking a few old patents are Nokia bringing to the party (overlooking a bag of old patents)?

      1. Waspy

        Re: Right idea wrong choice

        I see your points but Nokia have traditionally provided very solid, reliable hardware for a very reasonable price (Nokia has been known to delay releases by weeks to wait for a slight drop in component prices). The Lumias 710 and 800 show this to still be true (I haven't used the 610 but can't imagine it skimps on quality either).

        To answer your question, the thing that they bring to the party is almost iPhone like hardware quality (and good features, like camera tech) for half the price. Unfortunately in the public's eye they are now only known for providing decent quality dumbphones.

        As you commented though, Elop has 'done a Ratner' and made it very difficult to regain market share, coupled with the fact that no one cares (or knows) about Windows Phone. The whole thing is a crying shame; Symbian Belle has completed its glacial evolution to become in some ways better than Android (and had it been released 4 years ago it would be in Android's current position), and Windows Phone and the aforementioned Nokia models are all very good - anyone who has actually used a Nokia WP really likes it. Problem is, no one actually wants or knows about Nokia WinPhones and Elop publicly shot Symbian in the head last February. Nokia therefore are getting very close to being kicked out of the party all together.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Nicely disguised astroturf.

          1. Nokia are now only known for feature phones.

          2. Nobody knows about Windows Phone.

          3. No one cares about Windows Phone.

          4. Windows Phone is very good.

          5. Anyone who has actually used a Nokia WP really likes it.

          That's five fallacies I've found in your post. There may be others but I really can't be bothered.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Nicely disguised astroturf.

            Explain in 50 words or less why you want Nokia to fail.

            1. Bob Vistakin

              Re: Nicely disguised astroturf.

              "Explain in 50 words or less why you want Nokia to fail." Anyone beat 7? Here we go:

              "They sold their soul to the devil."

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Nicely disguised astroturf.

              Who wanted Nokia to fail?

              The plain fact is, they are failing.

              Of course, if I said 'this is about the fact that Nokia are failing, not about whether or not anyone wants them to fail', I'd be wrong - this is exactly what the class action is all about.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Right idea wrong choice

          How come you got four down votes for a logical counter argument to my views on Elop doing a Ratner?

          Anyway, I agree that the latest versions of Symbian have nothing to be ashamed of against either IOS or Android, and I suspect (without being bothered to find out) that WPn is probably an entirely competent, possibly even good phone OS.

          I acknowledge your comments about Nokia's value proposition, but they're barking up the wrong tree on that one, certainly with smartphones. Most buyers think "it's only another two quid a month", rather than "it's fifty quid more over the life of the contract". Nobody buys an iPhone for the value, and my SGS2 is easily £200 more over the life of the contract than I actually needed to spend for a basic but competent smartphone. My buying decision was "slim, powerful, lovely screen, I can afford it, does far more than I need, not iPhone" (that should earn me a few down votes if anybody's still reading this thread). And for reliability and build quality, I've got a two year makers warranty on a two year contract - Nokia's track record of durable bricks doesn't matter in that respect, because most smartphones are a two year product, by the end of which they are obsolete, even if fully functioning.

          If Nokia can really improve the quality of their smartphone cameras then that might be a starting point of differentiation, but despite the alleged 41Mp camera, image quality isn't really about megapixels, it's about sensor and optical quality, and image processing. And a good camera isn't going to be enough on its own - not only can everybody else stuff more pixels into their camera, but RIM's difficulties show that being a one trick pony isn't a sustainable position. They've got what I believe is the best maps/navigation solution on any mobile platform (wonder if they've gormlessly handed control of that to MS to incorporate into WP?). But that's still not enough.

          As you say, a crying shame that Nokia have lost it; I'd like to see them turn it round, but.....

  3. asdf

    reality is a b_tch

    Wait just wait those soon to be obsolete phones will fly off the shelf any day now. What is especially cherry about them is that cheap plastic look.

    1. Bob Vistakin

      Re: reality is a b_tch

      I think its too late to even make Android phones. Look what Sammy is doing to Sony/LG/HTC etc. Nokia is in tatters now. Even if the shareholders did wake up and banish the evil back to Redmond, they'd be in in a far weaker a position then any of those so what chance would they stand? No, if this lawsuit does trigger an investigation, they should look in detail who made what. A good start would be microsofts 8th largest individual shareholder at the time:

      1. Manu T

        Re: reality is a b_tch

        "Nokia is in tatters now."

        No it isn't. They can still publicly apologize for prematurely declaring Symbian dead and pursue Harmattan as Symbian true successor instead of WP. Especially since they're STILL (secretly) dishing out upgrades for all their inhouse OS's including Harmattan.

        For all I care nothing has changed. Nokia still has Harmattan, Symbian and as a 3rd option Windows Phone 7 (due to be replaced with WP8 though nobody even knows if Nokia will be a partner for WP8-devices). And finally we get a successor to the N8. Now they just need to improve Harmattan and dishing out WP-devices and keeping Symbian's userbase to their heart (as most of them don't want WP at all).

        What ppl don't seem to get is that Nokia has promised to support Symbian to at least 2016 while NEXT YEAR WP7 will be obsolete already. Sure Symbian users won't get a quad core, full HD screen hardware but they don't care. They're not influenced by ridiculous over the edge specs and incompetent features but are driven by common sense.

        Because lets be honnest. 4G is a pipedream for most telecom-operators as we still haven't got a clue which basebands are being used/supported globally if any. ANd even 3G is awfully implemented in most regions. Again it is about time that comon sense dictates the implementation of these technologies. First globally implement PROPER 3G and THEN roll out 4G. Otherwise it's just a joke.

        Secondly. Nokia single handedly drives sale of Symbian, Harmattan and if it wasn't for Nokia WP7 would still be unkown to most o/t world (although Microsoft teamed up with the 3 major Android players, Samsung, HTC and LG, to create/sell handsets before teaming up with Nokia). While Android has at least 4 major companies supporting their act including Google. Nokia still sells most handsets on it's own than any other player in the market. Yet the only thing you lot can do is talk down on Symbian devices. Pathetic!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: reality is a b_tch

      Thanks for the laughs. Personally I blame the Finnish eugenics program that lasted until the 70s and produced all those blond managers that destroyed Nokia. The hilarious part is that the new chairman replacing Ollila is saying that Nokia must be Finnish to the core, as if a nauseating helping of cheap nationalism and racism is going to make it all right.

      1. Bob Vistakin

        Re: reality is a b_tch

        Warning - long post, and copied from Slashdot too, but definitely worth repeating:

        Microsoft's new "strategic partnership" with Nokia is not its first. For a decade the software company has courted and consummated relationships with a variety of companies in mobile and telecom. Here are the ones I can remember:

        LG. In February 2009 Microsoft Corp. signed a multiyear agreement for Windows Mobile to be included on devices from LG Electronics Inc. LG would use Windows Mobile as its "primary platform"for smartphones and produce about 50 models running the software.

        What happened? LG made a few Windows Mobile devices but with WinMo uncompetitive, they abandoned the platform and moved to Android losing years of market presence and all their profits.

        Motorola. In September 2003, Motorola and Microsoft announced an alliance. "Starting with the introduction of the new Motorola MPx200 mobile phone with Microsoft Windows Mobile software, the companies will collaborate on a series of Smartphone and Pocket PC wireless devices designed to create a virtual "remote control" for the Web-centric, work-centric, always-on-the-go mobile professional." In addition, the alliance includes cooperation on joint marketing and wireless developer programs.

        What happened? Motorola launched a series of Windows Mobile phones culminating in the Motorola Q "Blackberry killer". As Motorola hit the rocks in profitability new management reached for the Android liferaft. The company now relies exclusively on the Droid franchise.

        Palm. In September 2005 Palm and Microsoft announced a strategic alliance to "accelerate the Smartphone market segment with a new device for mobile professionals and businesses. Palm has licensed the Microsoft Windows Mobile operating system for an expanded line of Treo Smartphones, the first of which will be available on Verizon Wirelessâ(TM) national wireless broadband network."

        What happened? Palm shipped a few Windows Mobile, famously dismissing Appleâ(TM)s potential entry as something "PC guys" could never achieve. A new CEO, a private placement and an acquisition later the company is a division of HP making its own operating system.

        Nortel. When Steve Ballmer was famously laughing at the iPhone and saying that he likes the Windows Mobile strategy "a lot" he was sitting next to the then-CEO of Nortel (Mike Zafirovski formerly of Motorola) with whom the company had just closed a strategic deal. "an alliance between Microsoft and Nortel announced in July 2006 ⦠includes three new joint solutions to dramatically improve business communications by breaking down the barriers between voice, e-mail, instant messaging, multimedia conferencing and other forms of communication".

        What happened? Nortel declared bankruptcy two years later.

        Verizon. In January 2009 "Verizon Wireless has selected Microsoft Corp. to provide portal, local and Internet search as well as mobile advertising services to customers on its devices. The five-year agreement will go into effect in the first half of 2009 when Microsoft Live Search is targeted to be available on new Verizon Wireless feature phones and smartphones." The deal would ensure Bing distribution to all of Verizonâ(TM)s smartphone customers.

        What happened? Bing did ship on some devices but in October 2009 Droid came to Verizon.

        Ericsson. In September 2000, "Ericsson and Microsoft Corp. today launched Ericsson Microsoft Mobile Venture AB. This previously announced joint company will drive the mobile Internet by developing and marketing mobile e-mail solutions for operators. The first solutions are expected to be on the market by the end of the year. The company is part of a broader strategic alliance between Ericsson and Microsoft"

        What happened? Ericsson divested itself of the mobile division forming a joint venture which would go on and make more strategic alliances with Microsoft over Windows Mobile culminating in a loss of profits and eventual flight to Android.

        Sendo. In February 2001, Microsoft announced a partnership, in which Microsoft bought $12m of Sendo shares and a seat on the board. Sendo was to be Microsoft's "go to market partner" for the Stinger smartphone platform that would become Smartphone 2002.

        What happened? Sendo after litigating IP issues with Microsoft went bankrupt in 2005.

        And finally,

        Nokia. No, not this OS deal, but in August 2009 âThe worldwide leader in software and the worldâ(TM)s largest smartphone manufacturer have entered into an alliance that is set to deliver a groundbreaking, enterprise-grade solution for mobile productivity. Today, Microsoft Business Division President Stephen Elop and Nokiaâ(TM)s Executive Vice President for Devices Kai Ã-istÃmà announced the agreement, outlining a shared vision for the future of mobile productivity. This is the first time that either company has embarked on an alliance of this scope and nature.â

        The plan was to bring âoeMicrosoft Office Mobile and Microsoft business communications, collaboration and device management software to Nokiaâ(TM)s Symbian devices.â

        What happened? One and a half years later the same Stephen Elop announced that Symbian will be deprecated.

        1. Manu T

          Re: reality is a b_tch

          "The plan was to bring âoeMicrosoft Office Mobile and Microsoft business communications, collaboration and device management software to Nokiaâ(TM)s Symbian devices.â"

          Which they did in early 2012. By this time Microsoft Office became the insignificant blob on the world's radar. Especially on cellphones.

          "What happened? One and a half years later the same Stephen Elop announced that Symbian will be deprecated."

          That's 1 of his biggest mistakes. At the height of it's success (the N8 was selling quite good back then) he prematurely declared the platform dead without a real successor at hand for several months to come.

          2nd mistake is that Nokia is nitpicking which country/region gets what device (and even what colour). Nokia should do as Samsung, sell ALL their portfolio globally without discrimination. It shouldn't matter what OS the sold phone has (Symbian, Harmattan, WP7 or MSDOS for all care) as long as it has a Nokia badge! THAT'S Nokia's BIGGEST failure. Because whether El Reg likes it or not. Some people DO want a Nokia phone and Nokia should just SELL IT!

          Samsung release a few days ago the SGSIII. MOST o/t world will get that model in BOTH colours shown on the release event by the end of this month. They get it! They're the whore o/t phone-market but at least you can get any samsung you want everywhere whether it has Bada, Android or WP7. While I can only get an ugly silver 701 in this fucking country when I wanted the black one!

          1. Michael Kean

            Re: reality is a b_tch

            "It shouldn't matter what OS the sold phone has (Symbian, Harmattan, WP7 or MSDOS for all care) "

            C:\WP>CD Contacts

            C:\WP\Contacts>DIR /B






            copy con john.num


            1 files(s) copied.

            C:\WP\Contacts>dialer.exe john.num

            MS DOS DIALLER V1.7.



            Press Any Key to Continue...



  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Nokia share price really is in the toilet now

    Low of $3.12 today, a fall of 12%.

    the company is surely worth more by being broken up - Elop and his plan is achieving total destruction of shareholder value.

    1. Geoff Campbell

      Re: Nokia share price really is in the toilet now

      I wondered that, and added 1000 shares to my virtual portfolio a couple of weeks ago. They're down 25% since then....


    2. BristolBachelor Gold badge

      Re: Nokia share price really is in the toilet now

      "the company is surely worth more by being broken up - Elop and his plan is achieving total destruction of shareholder value."

      Is that true? Does Nokia actually have anything worth selling now? They have killed or maimed adn killed everything that they used to have of value I thought. I can't believe how they've gone from having a phone at least 10 years ahead of anyone (communicator) to just circuling around the drain, about to be gone forever.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Nokia share price really is in the toilet now

        Is that true? Does Nokia actually have anything worth selling now?

        Off the top of my head...

        Thousands of very relevant hardware and software patents - in an auction, easily worth $6-$8bn, and earning some decent annual coin out of Apple

        Navteq - probably the best mobile online/offline navigation solution around, maybe worth a $1bn (certainly not the $8bn Nokia paid for it)

        NSN - $1bn+, bit of a money pit right now but slowly turning around back to profitability

        Feature phone business - $1-$2bn if flogged off to a Chinese manufacturer

        Vertu - apparently worth $250m

        Cash - currently stands at about $4bn

        Then you've got various assets, including factories, offices, equipment etc. and even the smartphone business and brand - the brand alone is worth a fair chunk of change to the right buyer, although Elop is successfully hauling it through the mud as we speak.

        All in all, right now, breaking up Nokia would most likely yield more value than selling it as a whole, going concern. Nice job, Mr. Elop.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Nokia share price really is in the toilet now

        That's what happens when you don't invest in engineering and shove your head in the sand and hope all the problems go away.

        You would have thought that watching RIM do the same might have been a wakeup call...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward


          That's what happens when you don't invest in engineering and shove your head in the sand and hope all the problems go away.

          No, it's what happens when you hitch the future of your business to a partner that doesn't share the same core values that your current customers have believed in all these years. Particularly when that relationship is akin to snatching defeat from the jaws of victory (the transition to Qt on Symbian Belle and MeeGo-Harmattan was going well and when launched, very well received by reviewers, users and developers alike, N9 outselling Lumia etc.).

          People that bought Nokia in the past will, by and large, not buy Nokia now that it is dominated by Microsoft. Ignoring the past mistakes pre-Elop, there was still a certain appeal about an independent Nokia - I think Elop has misjudged this aspect of the business and totally destroyed what it was that made Nokia (and Nokia products) unique.

  5. gautam


    I can relate to the N97 failure personally. WIfi was either flaky or non-existent. (changed the handset 3 times). Customer services pants. They only reflashed the firmware 3 times and returned as "fixed" (and waited a week each time). Nokia PC suit software buggy as always. Took ages to recognise phone. OVi store. another nightmare in browsing and having phone recognised for any meaningful download.

    Setting up APN a nightmare through connections programe involving many, many steps.

    And finally manged to browse through mobile Data plan (no wifi) , well one knows the UI.

    One replacement was a refurbished/returned one with a different back case on the back ( Black and white body!).

    Thats when got the epiphany, as to how arrogant and out of touch , this company became.

    To top it, they brought in Elop whose mission is slash and burn.

    Way to go, shareholders and cleanse the board.

    Its an abject management lesson in "race to the bottom" and how one man can destroy the most esteemed company in a mtter of few months.

    1. twilkins

      Re: N-97

      Yes, my experience was very similar, after around 8 years of buying (almost) exclusively Nokias, the N97 was the straw that broke the camel's back.

      The fault that really irked me was the way the lens cover scratched the lens when it was opened and closed due to a design tolerance issue.

      BUT, even with all the problems I would have still have been a Nokia die-hard, except the attitude of Nokia was arrogance and denial. I persevered with that phone for 6 months before I realised I'd been taken for a fool and moved onto my first Android handset.

      The same arrogance that allowed the N97 to be released and keep shipping is still visible today in the decision to go for a single, unproven platform rather than take a multi-platform approach.

      I give them 18 months and they'll be consumed by the beast.

      1. Test Man

        Re: N-97

        Oh man, this sounds very familiar to me too! I lived and breathed Nokia (from 5246, 3210, 3310, 8310, 7250, 6230, N70) and had a N95 - that was really the best phone for its time. The rot started with the N96, a phone that was massively unresponsive and awful to use, suffice to say I didn't get that. But when the N97 was released, I was one of the first to get it, despite being heavily warned off by two friends who worked for Vodafone. How right they were. The camera much much worse than the N95, the "widgets" were pants, the GPS was worse than the N95 (taking an AAAAGE to lock onto the current location), the fonts were unreadable and the OS itself was buggy as hell - looking like a hastily-modified S60 which wasn't (and still isn't) suited to touch-screen use. After six months of fighting against the awful phone, the last straw was when I dropped it - the touch screen stopped working. So much for the resilience of Nokia phones in general (all my previous phones had been dropped on concrete at least once - all unaffected, this one breaks instantly). I lost it and smashed it to a million pieces. Had to go back to the N95, at least I had a phone that could take good pictures, had much better-sounding and louder speakers, and didn't fight against me.

        My next phone was an Android (HTC Desire HD) - the phone the Nokia N97 SHOULD have been. I have never looked back since.

    2. Manu T

      Re: N-97

      "I can relate to the N97 failure..."

      Here we go again.

      Please stop driveling on about that bloody N97! YES WE KNOW ITS CRAP! But that device has long since burried and forgotten (aparantly not by the 'press' whom keep digging it up and pretending that current Nokia devices must be as bad as that device).

      A 1.3GHz Nokia 701 is a fantastic Symbian phone. It's EASY to use, quick, has a fair battery live and looks very good IMHO. There's nothing wrong with it as a competent smartphone. Sure, some things are not as good as others but these can be circumvented by THIRD PARTY APPLICATIONS which is the MAIN PURPOSE of a smartphone. "Don't like the inbuild app-X, then create a better one yourself!" Other things are BETTER than others. That's with every platform out there. Android has its strong pionts just as WP7 and iOS and all have also their drawbacks. So what? Stop talking down on Symbian. Take it for what it is, a good multitasking worktool OS. But stop comparing 2008 devices with 2012 devices. You don't talk down on iPhone 4 (let alone a 4S) because you didn't like the iPhone 2G.

      It's about time El Reg got some serious editors. In my book objectivity is the main ingredient for a competent editor!

      1. gautam

        Re: N-97

        Manu T. The article is about Nokias products and its downfall.

        In my opinion, the slide started with the N97, which was touted and advertised as the ultimate in smartphone ( no its a computer in your pocket or some such blrub) and the advertising budget of a third world country's annual GDP.

        AND the issue highlighted is the sheer arrogance and disdain displayed by Nokia, when problems arose, in keeping pushing it (assuming consumers were idiots who would keep buying no matter what the faults - another insult, taken for mugs/ granted).

        The device may be buried, but not forgotten by us, who bore the brunt of the company's cynical lies, stonewalling and outright deceit, after paying a high price for the product.

        As much as you love Symbian (good for a basic phone), theres scores of us , who have been abolsutely riled by Nokia in pretending that SYmbian s60 was the ultimate in smartphone OS, and without remorse.

        And the majority of people are NOT INTERESTED in making their own apps. ( you sound just like Nokia management now)

        They only want what is offered to "just work" !

        And thats the point.

        1. Anonymous Coward 101

          Re: N-97

          The N97 wasn't even the best Symbian phone at the time - the Samsung Omnia HD was released at around the same time as the N97 and was streets ahead in performance. Part of Nokia's problem at the time was that they would release phones with old processors and a lack of memory, presumably for penny pinching reasons. The Omnia HD had double the RAM and a better processor compared with the N97, and it worked much better. Nokia short changed Symbian as much as vice versa.

          The N97 massively blew Nokia's credibility with consumers and operators. It allowed iPhone and Android to run away with it in 2010. Nobody can possibly talk about Nokia's current predicament without talking about the N97.

  6. illiad

    Tales of the much expected.......

    ROFL ROFL ROFL..... kicking himself for rejecting linux/ android.... LOL LOL

    Barely rivaled by the guy who said the Beatles would go nowhere.... :) :)

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If Android was Linux

    Then Google would not be in court explaining why they stole so much IP from Oracle. Andoid is not Linux, it is a low cost, plagerised copy of iOS. It is true that Google hands it out for free. However, this is so they can spy on their users and sell their personal information. There is a price for every operating system. Most Android users are just too dumb to realise they are paying it.

    1. Bob Vistakin

      Re: If Android was Linux

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: If Android was Linux

        Thanks for the two year old link Bob. I presume it was an attempt at humour? Anyhow, I do not have an iPhone (well, I do, but an old one). After owning Blackberries, an iPhone, a Samsung Galaxy (briefly, it was crap) I have now settled on a Lumia 800 as my device of choice. It is by far the smartphone I have used.

        1. Bob Vistakin

          Re: If Android was Linux

          "I have now settled on a Lumia 800 as my device of choice. It is by far the smartphone I have used."

          Now *that's* what I call fucking humour! Genuinely hilarious - got any more?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: If Android was Linux

            suck it up bobby boy. It is the best phone I have used.

            1. Simon Rockman

              Windows the best phone

              I have to agree. I loved my Bold 9000, thought my iPhone 3 was a good toy and the iPhone 4 a little better but found I spent the whole time playing games and it wasn't any good as a phone. Had a torch 9800 for a while and grew to hate it. Slow, clunky unresponsive (two minutes to start from cold!). No I've a Lumia 710 (with that great innovation, a removable battery). It's slick and a pleasure to use.

              But the phone OS wars are not about the quality of the product, athough I accept the point that the brand is the product, the product is the brand, the real battle is the operators against the handset manufacturers. The operators can see that Apple has sucked all the value out of their business. This is why they will go balls out to support Samsung with the SIII being "better than the iPhone", but the operators are cautious of both Google and Microsoft's VoIP plans and it will be the one that plays ball that finds itself on the font page of operators web sites with special deals and in the prime position in the shops planogram.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Windows the best phone

                These shill-bots are almost (but not quite) passing the Turing test.

                1. This post has been deleted by its author

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Windows the best phone

                  We could easily write you as a bot, Barry.

                  foreach(string WP7 in Story)




                  foreach (proWP7 in Comments)


                  print("shill! shill! shill!)


                  Throw in some pro-Google and Boner-for-Sony and you're pretty much done.

    2. eulampios

      Re: If Android was Linux

      >>plagerised copy of iOS

      and sued by Oracle? Hmmm, so logic...

    3. Steve Evans

      Re: If Android was Linux

      @A/C 21:01

      So you're saying Android is a copy of iOS and that is why Oracle are dragging Google to court... So in your world Oracle wrote iOS?

      The reason Oracle are upset is that Android phones run a Javaesque virtual machine called Davlik. This allows apps to be written once and run on lots of different hardware.

      iOS and Android do have quite a few similarities, but that is because they have the same great grandfather, Unix. Android is a branch of Linux which was inspired by Unix.

      iOS comes from OSX which comes from NextStep BSD which is Unix.

      Yes, google does collect information, but at least there are tick boxes and warning that wifi info will be sent back. iOS did exactly the same, but didn't provide any such warning. Both do it for the same reason, to improve A-GPS.

      Oh you know what, I can't be bothered to feed the flame baiting any more.

      Come back when you've worked out how to be a real troll.

    4. spegru

      Re: If Android was Linux

      clearly you don't know what Intellectual Property is - nor what plagarism is either.

      Just because Mr Otto invented a thing called the Internal Combustion Engine did not mean he got an exclusive patent. Why? because much of it was based on earlier Steam Engine (external combustion) technology as well as others.

      Similarly iOS is based on BSD and Unix. Android is based on Linux and UNIX.

      If you are thinking of that nice GUI, then guess what, those icon thingies have been around for ages too.

      I know it must be annoying for Apple fanbois to have ton admit that their favourite fruit is not and never has been unique, but it's a fact

  8. Alan Thompson

    Smartphone=new feature phone

    Nokia will not recover until they realize that smartphones are the new budget feature phone. They just need to stop pushing their 'button" phones and start selling a variety of smartphones of different feature sets for a variety of prices.

    1. Manu T

      Re: Smartphone=new feature phone

      "They just need to stop pushing their 'button" phones"

      They're NOT pushing button phones.

      Besides some people WANT button phones!

      It's not because YOU want 4" screens with Full HD and hexa-core cpu's on a 2mm thin device that everyone else want that too.

      I only wan't to a decent smartphone that I can sync with outlook over US/BT/Wifi, that can record phonecalls AUTOMATICALLY (even when the call is made over BT). Those are my prime reasons for a new phone. If the SGSIII can't do it, then need not to apply. The same for Sony's next flagshipphone or the new iPhone 5/5S/6/whatever or the new BlackBerry 10-phone.

  9. Anonymous Coward

    LOL, any investors need a consultant?

    It didn't take a genius to work out the moment the burning platform email did the rounds, and Microsoft were their partners, that they were screwed, and it was time to sell up and move on.

    If anyone needs Barry Shitpeas tech stock consultant, let me know. then again, don't bother, I have more more than I know what to do with, from my ARM shares...

  10. mark l 2 Silver badge

    Just get on with selling up to M$ so they can start there patent war against Android when they will have actual patents to fight with rather than there bogus patents M$ have now like FAT.ASS file system patents. Cos no one want or needs a 3rd eco system especially a microsoft one

    1. Chemist

      "Cos no one want or needs a 3rd eco system"

      No ? But we've been assured by those nice Redmond people that Windows Phone will mean genuine, honest-to-goodness competition - which is GOOD for the market - only a FOOL would want a complex technological market to be a monopoly.

      I'll just get back to my desktop now ......

  11. Richard Plinston

    Waiting for Panasonic to sue

    Panasonic have used the trademark LUMIX for years, including a camera running Android and others with WiFi. All of which are 'mobile'.

    Nokia stole their IP by using the mark LUMIA which is 80% identical (the first 4 characters) and uses the two strokes of the remaining letter slightly displaced. Overall it is 99% of the Panasonic trademark.

    1. Andus McCoatover

      Re: Waiting for Panasonic to sue

      Might have a hard task. Lumia is Finnish for snow (OK, in a weird form called "plural partative" - a form not seen in English), can also be slang-ish for "white". Seems fitting for Finland - the damn stuff's only just about gone for us.

      Does that mean "Snow White" could be rendered as 'Lumi Lumi"?

      1. Richard Plinston

        Re: Waiting for Panasonic to sue

        > Might have a hard task. Lumia is Finnish for snow

        Completely irrelevant. Nokia is not using 'SNOW' or "WHITE' as a trademark, it is using 'LUMIA'.

        Also from Wikipedia:

        In places

        Aitape-Lumi District, Papua New Guinea

        Al-Lumi, a village in central Yemen

        Lumi, Yemen, a village in central Yemen

        River Lumi, Tanzania, in Tanzania and Kenya

        River Lumi, Zambia, Zambia

        In people

        Lumi Cavazos, a Mexican actress

        In other uses

        Lumi (album)

        Lumi (band)

        Lumi (software)

        Lumi laring ta ghawdex, a type of orange

        Lumi masking, a technique used by video compression software

        Salmo lumi, a type of fish

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Waiting for Panasonic to sue

          "Completely irrelevant. Nokia is not using 'SNOW' or "WHITE' as a trademark"

          Since when did a trademark have to be in English ?

          1. Richard Plinston

            Re: Waiting for Panasonic to sue

            > Since when did a trademark have to be in English ?

            When did you see any claim that they had to be ?

            Trademarks are _marks_, not words, not English, not Finnish. They may look like words or like images. It is only the appearance that counts.

  12. Muckminded

    Hitting the Bing bong

    MS have proven they have plenty of money from successful divisions to fund failing ones for a long time. For all I know or care, they have a winner on their hands. Problem is, no one knows or cares. Like Bing, Zune, Bob, and a (tiny) Vista of dead Kin have proven, marketing and tepid follow-through don't always produce tremendous results.

    As for suing a company you own stock in, that's genius.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hitting the Bing bong

      > As for suing a company you own stock in, that's genius.

      No, it's perfectly reasonable. The shareholders are suing because they've seen the stock price go to hell under Elop, and they are charging Nokia to prove that the price has not been deliberately driven down for the benefit of a third party. Note that Elop is specifically named in the suit.

      In other words, they're asking Nokia to demonstrate that Elop is not a crook, but just an idiot.

    2. Bob Vistakin

      Re: Hitting the Bing bong

      Ahem - you implying Bob, Vista and Kin were something other than runaway successes for microsoft there buddy? ;-)

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Investing is not risk free. Just cause the stock tanks does not mean you get to sue. Can Employees sue stock holders that screw the company over for short term gain ?

  14. Manu T

    "A class action suit naming Nokia's CEO Steve Elop, and CFO Timo Ihamuotila has been filed by New York law firm, and serial class action rottweilers, Robbins, Geller, Rudman & Dowd."

    Great more greedy bastards suing other greedy bastards. Just what we need!

    Isn't it about time common sense dictates company directions instead of greed?

  15. Mike Judge

    remind me again

    Who are nokia? Do they sell Android?

  16. CheesyTheClown

    Nokia's real problems and most ignored

    1) Steven Elop is the worst presenter in history. He gets on stage pretending to be Steve Jobs and Jobs laying cold in his grave is more entertaining and interesting than this guy. He talks about how cool Nokia products are wearing a $5 haircut and a $5000 suit and tie. This is the start of awful marketing. Then he tries to make the sexy by having a so-so female in fuck-me-pumps show off te features.

    2) Design. The Lumias are colors that only a pimp or dragon lady would find attractive. The shape of the phone looks like a prototype not a finishe product. Mobile phones are about fashion these days, not features. Windows Phone is great, but it's running on what looks like a "we are trying to be different!" but failing style.

    3) Windows Phone Store. Every third app for sale is "For $0.99 get 20 high quality anal sex pics". I am waiting for Microsoft to clean this up before I publish my WP7 apps. I don't want someone to search on my product and get hard core porn results. That is unacceptable.

    4) Facebook is too tightly integrated. I want my FaceBook and address book to be separate. I have 300 "friends" in my FaceBook. I have 70 numbers in my address book. Trying to force me to combine the two sucks.

    5) iPhone/iCloud migration. You can't for the life of you move your contacts from iPhone to Windows Phone 7 without performing 75 steps. It just doesn't work. One option is to offer free exchange server accounts online where you can sync your phone book on iPhone to Exchange and back to Windows Phone, I actually setup a Windows Server with Exhange just for this. Syncing iPhone to outlook works like crap on Windows and is useless on Mac.

    6) Zune!!! FFS, Nokia spent all those years with Ovi and a million other shit solutions and eventually ended up with Microsoft's shit phone sync? It's like a big nasty toy. Remember iPhone actually started with iTunes. And app people actually used for playing music. To this day, Microsoft has failed every test making syncing software. Open the APIs and let someone else try. Ditch Zune!!! And no... Unless Nokia let's the Norwegians, Germans and Aussies at Trolltech make it, they SHOULD NOT do it themselves. If there is one thing Nokia really can't do is make good software.

    7) bing? Really? I'm sure there are people who like it, but if I can't have my Google, I'm not interested. Bing is awful. I tried finding the website for the online Microsoft store recently. I had to use Google because Microsoft BIng couldn't find the "Microsoft Store". Funny, first hit on Google.

    8) Developer seeding. I use an LG as my Windows Phone.

    9) and absolutely the most important. Nokia is the granny phone company. Nice models with big numbers and big screens so granny can read it without he spectacles. You just don't buy a product with a lame ass name from a guy in a suit and tie from a company who makes your grand mother's phone. How cool is it walking around showing of you label from a company who's primary market has a mean age of wrinkle monster? I mean, Lumia.. Sounds like "Use me as a nightlight while you go change your adult bladder control diaper at night".

    10) people like me who like Windows Phone and carries one as a backup but would never buy a Nokia product and talks trash about them and rag on people who own them. I'm pretty happy I haven't actually seen out outside of the showcase yet. I'd have to torture the poor soul.

  17. Trev 2

    Good hardware - really crap software

    Probably the biggest problem with Nokia comes when they try to go beyond standard phones into the "smartphones" as the Lumia 710 has serious problems such as not being able to end a call if it lasts more than a couple of minutes - they did actually test the phone before release!? Still awaiting the fix being released to the UK.

    By the sounds of things from the US, there are even bigger testing screwups in the Lumia 900 with more simple lack of testing for simple features.

    Used to be good, but software is starting to seriously let them down.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good hardware - really crap software

      That's what happens when you outsource both the software development and manufacturing - the quality control is out of your direct control.

      Even if past Nokia software quality has been a bit ropey, Nokia hardware was usually top notch - now they can't even do hardware right, since they're not even making these Windows Phone devices (they're made by Compal). What Elop saves in pennies by outsourcing, the company loses in dollars when it all goes horribly wrong, and so far every Nokia WP device has had one major software/hardware problem or another.

      Elop will get a pay off when the day comes, but sadly it won't be in pennies.

  18. dogged


    time to stop reading the comments on the Reg. What a bunch of vindictive little bitches you are.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Christ...

      Bye bye then. You know of course El Reg forum will close down once you're gone. It really was all about you, after all.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Christ...

        Thought you said you were going.

    2. Bob Vistakin

      Re: Christ...

      I think you'll find most actually like Nokia and feel sorry for them being raped and shred apart just when they needed help the most. The hatred for microsoft, however, hasn't gone nearly far enough. I suppose your shilling will all be AC now & you'll have to just cut n paste your astroturfing back to their marketing department from now on.

  19. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. TonyHoyle

      Re: On the subject of...

      Do tell... Their share price is $0.20 and their description says

      "Zap.Com Corporation does not have significant operations. The company intends to acquire assets or businesses to become an operating company. Previously, it was engaged in the Internet operations business."

      So it seems dead, and therefore 'got away with it' seems optimistic.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The genius of the lawsuit

    Now no astroturfer shill can claim that the Lumia Windows phones are selling like hotcakes.

    Maybe they still can... but they'll make themselves look more and more stupid with every passing day. Then again, maybe the perks from Microsoft/Nokia justifies being delusional cheerleading clowns.

    And even if the Lumia phones were selling well (when they're really not), the bad PR from the lawsuit will further decimate the turd ecosystem and put off fence-sitting investors.

    Nokia will go down faster than you can say 'Titanic' or 'burning platform'... unless Trojan Horse Elop is sacked and Nokia moves ahead with a more sensible strategy... without Windows Phone.

    And please stop with the 'WP8 is going to change things!'. You've said the same thing when WP7 was released ('Wait for Mango!'). Nothing has changed; most people simply do not want Windows phones. And snarky marketing (smartphonebetatest dot com) will not help.

    1. Richard Plinston

      Re: The genius of the lawsuit

      > And please stop with the 'WP8 is going to change things!'. You've said the same thing when WP7 was released ('Wait for Mango!').

      That, of course, is one of the problems with WP sales. With Microsoft products there has always (since Windows 3) been a need to 'wait for version 3', or SP2, before they get it right.

      WP7 was a complete break from WM6.x. The initial version lacked many things but marketing said 'wait for update'. Then 'wait for Tango' (or was it Mango), now they are talking about Apollo (superphone), but current models won't benefit from that. And then there will allegedly be WP8 which has become conflated with Windows 8.

      Microsoft continually talking about future software and facilities is merely drawing attention to the fact that current WP7 phones are outdated before they have been released.

  21. dervheid

    WinPhone on Nokia - No Thanks

    As a former WinPhone user (admittedly an Orange SPV C600), I found that widows mobile sucked like a Dyson.

    Maybe it's Just me , but having had Nokias for a while now, I find Symbian Belle on the N8 a fairly easy and intutive to use. It does pretty much everything I want from a smartphone, although some 3rd part app support is drying up (gmail etc).

    The one thing that Nokia suck at is music (I've not seen any comments on this aspect of smartphones here.) Nokia Music has one of the WORST UI's ever. Nokia Suite's handling of music isn't ant better. NM doesn't allow you to specify which memory you want to use on the N8, and the player on the phone is seriously basic.

    I hoe Nokia dump WinPhone like the turd it appears to be

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: WinPhone on Nokia - No Thanks

      Careful there, calling Windows Phone OS by it's predecessor's name 'Windows Mobile' will make the astroturfers and fanboys foam at their mouth.

      They hate it when you don't get the marketing semantics right.

      Never mind if both operating systems are based on the same Win CE. Except that WP7 has a Zune-Bob-tile UI layer (Metro) over it.

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