No, we don't want iPads
But we also don't want US$600 tablets either. I just saw a review somewhere of a "budget" $300 Android tablet.
$300 is not budget. That is what a standard model tablet should go for. "Budget" is somewhere around $150-$250.
If you need any further proof that the iPad will continue to dominate the tablet market, here's a bit of news that should remove all doubt: Foxconn, the Chinese supplier of Apple's fabulously successful fondleslab, will ship 20 million iPad 2s this quarter. So says DigiTimes when reporting Foxconn's earnings – $945.9m – for …
I'd agree, many Android tablet makers have fallen for the "If Apple can sell at that price, so can we" and produce devices at the same price or higher that arn't as "good" as the iPad resulting in people looking at them and going "If I'm going to spend that much, I might as well get an iPad".
Unless your device is definatly that mythical "iPad killer", your not going to get away with pricing it the same as the iPad. Simple.
The recent Touchpad firesale shows people are interested in alternatives if you get the price right, though I think HP went too low in that case. But produce a good quality tablet, and it doesn't have to be an iPad killer just something good, for between $300 and $400 and you could gain a large market share.
And Amazon might be poised to do just that..
I think appull will find themselves disappointed. 10 million sure, they same idiots may be convinced to buy another "new" model. Or maybe another one for the wife or kids. I could even believe as much as 15 million. I simply don't think (especially in this economy where the elite and rich are an ever shrinking group of uber rich people) that there are that many millions of people with $600 to spend on a expensive remote control/oversized smart phone.
$250 for the HPtouch seemed like a bargain, and $300-$350 to be an early adopter of a still proving itself technology is probably fair.
Don't judge HP by retarded Leo Apocolypse just because he made HP stop selling them, doesn't mean they weren't making great headway and on the verge of making some great product footprint.
$600 for a 16-32GB device is too much. I have a $40 pocket knife on my key chain with that much memory in it (LITERALLY). You telling me at mass market prices the ARM CPU and a screen should cost $500??? (with $60 for battery case and left over parts)
My, my, aren't we judgmental.
I drive a cheap-ish Civic. I waited years till the LCD/Plasma HD TVs came down from $3-4K to $1.5K (and then waited for a bargain). My mid-upper end stereo and speakers came cheap from a closeout sale. I don't fly, I rent my appt and hate bling. My electronics are hardly early adopter material. Too cheap to have a data plan on my smartphone as well, WIFI does fine.
News to you. If I feel like an iPad (or another tablet) because I commute 1 hr by train, instead of driving, and want to relax, browse code or play games during that time, that's my bizness. Not yours. I don't tell you how to spend your money, do I?
Now, f*** off.
See typical egoist.... thinks I'm talking about you personally ;-)
Again just sayin' I'm glad there aren't 20 million more of you than last year.
And if you think $1,500 for a TV screen is reasonable (even on sale) and makes you a common man, you are way out-of-wack with the masses who would have to choose to live on the street and not pay rent/mortgage for several months to have that kind of extra money... if they have a job right now even.
Pull your face away from the sweet jobsian glow for a just sec on your next trip and see how many plods riding the train already have a Ipad, let alone thinking of getting a second one. It's not like they are going to sprout a spare $600 in the next few months just to play games on the way to work.
From your description you sound like the main group fueling their sales, with your "mid-high end" stereo and Ipads on the train... not an elitist, but just wants to play one in public.
Think what you want. I can afford what I have, I pay my taxes and I don't grumble that my taxes are too high. What I earn I earn because I am good at my job and work hard at it.
Tired of seeing losers judge other people because they use this tablet, that OS, that phone, that browser. I know we are techies, but I didn't think we were fashionistas.
I don't think people are defined by their choice of consumer tech. Do you?
I'll judge my peers by their brains instead. And perhaps their choice of business tech.
So, mind your own effing business and stop being the Thought Police. Besides it's not as if you are being brilliantly innovative in doing so.
p.s. and strangely enough, one big recurring expense of mine is a donation to street kid shelters.
Never called you out by name or said you cant buy what you want. Where are you even getting the thought police banner from?
I think its an elitist device - it does cost $600, and that's without ANY apps, cables, etc.
I am sure if all the fanbois posted the ACTUAL costs of what they PAID to get their fondleslab to "just do" what they want it to the REAL costs would easily rise above $1000 or more to buy and use one of these. I mean really we haven't even mentioned the $50-$100 or so a month if you want this thing to work on the net outside of your house that the wireless carrier is going to want.
My initial argument is that the number of people that CAN and are willing to shell out $1000 for an appull branded device are quickly slimming down. And unless this next 20 million have some new "must have" features that Jobs can hawk to the believers, I just don't see the current customers running out and buying another one.
You are totally entitled to buy what you want with your money, never said otherwise. I am however allowed to think your not so bright for feeding that company as well though.
Comes with a USB cable and a AC adapter. Comes with mail, web browser, youtube, calendar, can't remember what other apps.
But please don't let facts get in the way of your witty arguments. It still does not do what you want, therefore it is worthless and people who buy it are idiots (yes, your words in another post!)
And yes I thought Ipad buyers were idiots for buying such a walled garden device...but hey I guess you're the thought police, and I can't have an opinion? Or did the comment just hit too close to home?
It's not that the device doesn't do what I want (never mentioned such a thing) it just I think people are idiots to give money to that corporation in general....
And since I have bought a touch in the last year (at a ridiculous $300 for a damn MP3 player none the less) I AM sadly ONE OF THOSE IDIOTS.
Paid 599 + taxes for mine. Bought around Us$ 40 in misc apps for it -- including Scrabble and Angry Birds.
Then again I bought it to be a media consuming device. I have computers to code and run simulations and other computer stuff. It just does what I want. Just to make sure you understand, I didn't buy it to do what *you* want.
But since I don't see myself as a fanboi you can just discard my opinion. I just know the difference between a tablet and a computer.
So YOU haven't paid more, I think my argument holds weight still... In apples closed environment you HAVE to buy accessories from them, and that's where they really SUCK, especially if you need a simple dock, or to get pictures off an SD card, or just replace the single proprietary usb Cable it comes with. ($87 for just those 3 accessories)
BTW what do carry this around in? Nothing, just loose in your backpack or pocket? or did you forget the $39 you paid for the case already?
Want/need to do M$ office apps?) an extra $149 (My old Pre phone does this BTW for $0
Want a keyboard (not even wireless mind you) another $49 ($99 for one that folds and can actually go with you)
Want to plug into HDMI TV another $35, need VGA too, that an extra $29, and another $39 if you need component too (though to be fair just one of these should suffice for most people)
Want a simple case to keep you pretty fondleslab from scratches simple rubber cover $39 ($69 in leather) The dumb sleeve is still $34 and fancier cases (like hard plastic shell) can go upwards of $130
Simple AC power plug another $29 ($24 for car charger though :-)
Oh and worse:
a simple SD card adapter to get your pics on the damned device another $29
A plastic dock to hold the thing upright $29 (or $19 for just two plastic feet that picture frames come free with)
and $29 for a replacement USB cable
$50 was the cheapest speakers I could find, and I doubt their sound quality.. its more like $300 to get ones that would sound decent
Ever travel?... $39 for the power adapters
So I would say MS Office* (you do want to be able to edit a .doc file at some point right?) a replacement "USB" cable, a simple "smart" cover and dock, an adapter to plug into a TV and to get pictures from your camera (all things they show BTW on the commercials) you would end up at more like $750 or so (with minimal feature most people would expect it comes with), and Office would bring that to $900, want a folding keyboard and speakers and you are past $1050
And that's without ANY apps (except office as I mentioned)
And if you want a leather case instead of rubber its $69, headphones with a mike are like $79 and other premium options are even worse of a gouge
(*Though I guess you could buy their crappy iwork for $89 or so)
"$600 to spend on a expensive remote control/oversized smart phone" ... "$600 for a 16-32GB device is too much. I have a $40 pocket knife on my key chain with that much memory in it"
Nice comparisons. I gather you don't know (or possibly care) about what it can be used for, right?
Next time try "I have a rock that weights the same and is free".
That old "I don't want it and I don't want you to have it either" mentality.. it's getting old.
See a rock that weighs the same makes you sound kinda dumb, where as my comment was a little more apt. Ok, I'll admin maybe a bit mean spirited even, sure they are more than remotes, but I was taking it for granted that everyone believes you can view web pages and play games with them.
My point was a damn knife has that much memory on a built in flash drive, the memory is not the cost.
I'm happy having people want things I don't want (not like i'm the thought police or anything ;-).
What I did say in my post that there are only so many people who do, and its my belief that most of them already own their fondleslab,
I may be speaking a bit glib here to get a rise out of the appull fanbois, but really you all are assigning me some tired arguments that I didn't ever make.
We will see this xmas if Apple does indeed sell 20-30 million more of these things.
I'm happy enough to base my opinions largely on the facts at hand.
Sorry marketing mavens, I do not want an Ipad or anything else made by Crapple.
I favor function over form so I must be some kind of oddball engineer that does not fit your focus group.
I want a tablet that has a true operating system, that runs programs (not "apps"). Windows or Linux but something that will be supported for years to come not WebOS or some other twaddle that is bound for obsolescence in a year or two. Could be Android but I want to run Word, Excel & Outlook or something compatible (Okay maybe not all 3 at the same time).
I want it to have decent storage (that can be user upgraded) flash or disk is fine, at least 2 USB Ports, 1080P HDMI output (from a decent video chip with it's OWN RAM), no proprietary bullshit charging or other connectors, at least 2 gig memory (that can be user upgraded), Wireless and hardwired LAN and Bluetooth, give me a screen that is able to show a full view of an 8-1/2" by 11" document without zooming or panning and last a battery that will give 8 to 12 hours of reasonable operation.
Is that too much to ask? I don't think it is any different than a cheap notebook with a touch screen display except no hinge to break.
If such a thing were possible it would be on the shelves already. Time to grow up and recognise that perfection doesn't exist in engineering, if it did this month's "must have" would not be out of date by next month. A fact which applies to Apple as much as anybody, but slightly less so. One good thing about Apple stuff is that it continues to perform on-spec for as long as it lasts. All the other gear I own always seems to get slower and creakier as time goes by, eventually giving up the ghost about 18 months - 3 years down the line.
Apple products don't do everything, I'm happy accept that, because what my iPad doesn't do I don't really need, and what it does do, it does very well. Since we got an iPad (iPad 1, about a month before 2 came out, duh) we haven't opened the lid of the laptop to do anything - not once! Absolutley no need. Though we once had a race to see who could google something quicker, my wife on the iPad and me on the laptop. She'd finished and got herself a G&T before the lappy had booted enough to use the web, found the network and become useful. And I got bored installing updates and never got as far as doing anything as useful as actually using it for anything anyway. Gave up and had a G&T of my own :)
The problem with trying to cram every known feature into a product is that you end up with an Inspector Gadget device which is too big, too heavy and if the rest of the world's products are anything to go by, too damn ugly.
"Is that too much to ask? "
No, I dont think that is too much to ask either.
If people stopped asking for improvements, nothing would get better. While it may not be possible today, if we dont set out what we want we will end up with second rate, rushed to market crap that doesnt achieve any of the things we need - such as a tablets without USB ports.... oh. wait....
True HDMI output takes a pretty hefty graphics engine, (say 1ghz, chip and 1-2GB of fast GDDR5 RAM) Anything less and you are cutting down frame rates, or otherwise "cheating" the image quality somehow. And beyond the cost ($100 or so) you are sucking down some serious power. I have an old single core 3ghz desktop with 1.x GHz video card and 1 gig of RAM an IT CANT do proper HDMI (mainly due to ancient AGP interface but still gives you an idea) and I even tried dropping a $120 something video upgrade a year or so back) It can play last years (or the year before that maybe) with some decent resolution, but 1080P video choke and are not fluid.
Agree with most of the rest of your checklist though:
*Full page of paper size (with a frame/margin that is only a few cm at most)
*2 STANDARD USB ports (usb 3 support would be nice, but USB 2 would do)
*2-4 GB of RAM and 30-60GB of storage (16GB with SD slot to expand would be best)
*1 to 2GHz CPU and ideally dual-core (or four) to allow for some real multitasking)
I could do without the hardwired LAN (it is a tablet after all, and you have to cut unnecessary costs
Could do without bluetooth myself, but I can see how this would be a need for most for print/music
If HP made a new touchpad with an AMD Llano processor (Video and CPU combined) you could maybe pull this off and get it closer to $400 or so. WebOS IS LINUX, just with a diffent GUI than GNOME. HomeBrew apps let you have access to the Linux shell, and there was really a LOT of apps on the way through this until F%^cking idiot LEO the cowardly lion Apocolypse shot it in the head for no damn good reason other than his fear and lack of understanding.
I want a tablet computer; a fully functional computer that can run windows. If it can run something else that has low power consumption when I'm just browsing the web, that would be nice.
We have an iPad in the house, but it isn't interesting to me, Android tablets don't really interest me either. I would have bought a TouchPad for $99 (not interested at $399 ) but they were all sold out.
If companies keep launching things like an $800 Android tablet that also requires a 2 year contract, then Apple will stay on top; If they start producing fully functional computers at a price point similar to the iPad, they might find a way into the market.
Apparently form over function is what most people want but more to the point, people want technology that just works. At work, my desktop dell went to crap and had to be replaced. I cannot tell you how many times my HTC EVO 4G has soft reset itself while I was attempting to just use a program. The ling lacks the storage space to make any real use of apps (1mb. Less with Sprint's crapware on board), and even though it has an SD Card slot with an 8GB SD card installed, I cannot move all or even most of the apps to the SD card for use. I'm definitely going to get an HP Touchpad in the next wave of the fire sale. I'm not paying more for anyone's tablet than the price of a new fully functional laptop ($300). I can see why many are willing to make due with an iPad. I'm just not one of them, but if Sprint gets the next iPhone and it is a world phone, I may have to cross over to the "Dark Side".... .
"a fully functional computer that can run windows"
You can already buy that. They have been around for a decade. Nobody bought them. Or if they did buy them they ended up just using them like a laptop because they were crap as tablets.
The feature list that you (and Dan Paul above you) demand (Windows and all it's attendant hardware requirements) results in a product that runs hot and is power hungry
The more batteries you add to try and extend battery life serves to make the tablet even bigger, heavier and more expensive.
What you end up with is an expensive, hot, heavy device with a short battery life and an interface that is not suited to a touch screen at all. Then to add insult to injury, you go and add alll your vaunted Windows applications you will quickly discover that they rely more than you might think on keyboard shortcuts and mouse functions such as the scroll wheel to be usable.
Overall, the Windows tablet user experience is crap, and nobody bought into the idea despite 10 years of MS and its OEMs pushing the idea on the market.
Yet despite this, we still regularly see people who demand Windows tablets as if they have never been tried (and failed) before.
As things stand, it is impossible to make a tablet with the price, form factor and battery life of an ipad and put Windows on it.
It simply can't be done.
Maybe Win8 on ARM might make it but I have my doubts about that too.
The final irony is that be if you did have an ARM Win8 tablet none of your precious Windows programs would work on it anyway.
It's just as well guys like you aren't running the PC OEMs because focusing your efforts on Windows tablets is a sure recipe for FAIL. Oh, hold on . . .
More to the point, too much of the Windows UI relies on a two button mouse and drag and drop. You can't do either on a tablet. A tablet doesn't know if you're prodding with left finger or right finger. It also can't tell the difference between "move cursor" and "drag cursor".
So Windows, as it stands, is a non-starter on a tablet. Any attempts to make it so far have been kludgy work arounds that don't "work".
...as opposed to the toys that we once called PDAs and MDAs before Apple's spin machine went into overdrive, still exist. Problem is, they are far from cheap. This is probably why they never took off to begin with; why pay two grand when you can pay 500 quid for the same thing minus the gimmicky rotate-and-fold touch screen?
What a funny use of language:
"Apparently the only tablet maker allowed to make a profit on the venture is Apple for some reason."
Wow that's ripe for analysis. It shows you feel the world is controlled by mysterious unseen forces preventing better alternatives than the iPad from being successful in a way that bears no relation to your view of what should be. Fair enough, but please be aware, either the world IS controlled by mysterious unseen forces OR (just maybe) your world view is simply wrong and the "for some reason" is most people just prefer iPads and nothing is forcing their decision.
"I could have been a contender but 'they' got me"
"As evidenced by the TouchPad, people do want tablets, not just iPads, but only if they are sold far below cost."
That appears to be a distantly related species of saying "people want inexpensive tablets that work", which I would think is the no-brainer conclusion that world+dog arrived at after the HP feeding frenzy. Hey, me too! And I don't even care if it's an iPad!! Or if the manufacturer makes a reasonable profit!!!
Like most people, I have a price point I think is OK for the use I have in mind, and funny enough, that is about (max) the price of a firesale 32gb Touchpad, which would have been very convenient had I obtained one. My needs are pretty limited; screen big enough to read web pages and (more importantly) PDF manuals (annotatable) and docs as a substitute for the reams of paper I seem to drown under when researching / fixing / writing / planning. Playing popular web video formats would be a crowd pleaser, taking flash cards and having wifi/USB would be essential. Beyond a half decent calculator, text editor, image player and a way to stop the fuckers that made it pimping my data, I couldn't give a rats arse about any of the "app" store frippery that seems to put market analysts into an especially trouser staining masturbatory frenzy.
I've done most of this to a more or less satisfactory (for the times) degree on various flavours of Palm, usually while travelling. But times move on and something bigger would be nice to have around - two or three if its cheap enough (I seem to get through a LOT of paper). Its not so much an object of desire as a practical need, and I don't have any ideological hang ups about where it comes from. Obvious initial covetousness and techy interest aside, I'd guess that covers what most here would want. Except perhaps those who see the modern world as a socialist/Apple conspiracy.
OK, this is purely anecdotal, but I threw a big party last weekend, as we do every August Bank Holiday. Just about everyone who comes along is connected to the IT inductry at first or second remove, and there's a lot of gadget freaks, because those are the circles I move in.
I didn't do a formal count, but I know for a fact there were three EeePad owners, one HP Touchpad owner (full price), two HP Touchpad owners (fire-sale, and probably thus not relevant), one Galaxy Tab owner, and one owner of multiple cheap chinese knock-offs. And about 7 iPad owners.
From that extremely small sample, I would have to draw the conclusion that Apple aren't having it all their own way.
And I'll bet the ratio of techies to non-techies went something like this:
Android & web os 90:10
iPad owners. 40:60.
You fail to consider an audience of IT workers is a fairly small demographic.
As shown by the Reg comments section I would guess the split between apple likers and dislikers I something like 50:50 on the Reg and something close to 70:30 or higher in the real world.
Whether we like it or not for a lot of people in the real world Apple is an aspirational brand - HP et al are not.
From that extremely small sample I would have to draw the conclusion that you have seven friends who are normal people and the rest of your friends are geeks.
There is nothing wrong with being a geek, just that 98% of the world is made up of real people and 2% of the world is made of geeks.
I just made that last statistic up, but you get the idea. I think this proves that Apple are having it all their own way, and that if they ever produce a tablet your geek friends would buy, they they clearly have lost their way.
Having had a Ipod touch for a year and loving it, but also having crap eyesight, I was looking at getting a tablet.
At the time 7" or Ipad was all the choice I had and as I got a goodish deal through Orange (I use the word good loosely because it's still a rip off really) on a 7" Galaxy Tablet, I sold my Ipod the same day.
I'm not a fanboy or hater of any of the companies, I like (well don't dislike) Linux, MS, Apple, Google etc etc etc.
When it comes to the tablet, I have personally found that for what I browse the web for (a lot of videos about synthesizers/keyboards), many are in flash format hence the Android has been a good switch for me.
A lot of things such as Kindle, audible are just as good on either.
But so far there are still far far far more decent apps that I could make good use of on the Ipad that simply aren't being ported to the Android, whether music related or gaming. This is especially true in the paid for app market, cant even buy Scrabble for the Android :)
There are a lot of good apps out for android, but I can see the difference a mile away having come from apple land.
That being the case, if I was looking to buy a 10" tablet now, if my entire choice of top quality tablets (as in thin, good screen, powerful such as Samsung or Ipad) is around the same price, or even a £100 difference, I would pay the extra £100 and get the one the majority of the developers are backing, hence would buy the Ipad and put up with the lack of flash.
If a rival company brought out something like the Samsung 10" for 1/2 the price of the ipad, then yes, I think many many people would buy it and market share would increase to the point where the developers thought it was worth developing for.
32GB Samsung 10" wifi from Argos, £479
32GB Ipad 2 wifi from Argos, you've guessed it, also £479
Now giving that choice to a good 85% (if not more) of the population, they are going to go for the Ipad every single time with just the Apple despisers opting for the Samsung.
That is why the others are failing. We all know they're making a huge profit on these things. If Samsung sold at £250 - £300 then not only would a lot of people who couldn't afford an ipad be able to afford the Samsung, many who could afford an ipad would also choose to save the money.
But, look at something dismal like the HP Touchpad. It's thick, it's heavy, it has hardly any apps, absolutely incomparable to either the Ipad or for that matter the Samsung. How much was Argos selling this before the fire sale, you've guessed it, £479. And HP wondered why they weren't selling any.
No one will ever take on Apple if they continue doing this, they need to make a product virtually as good and sell it a lot cheaper/ Otherwise they might as well all give up and go home now.
You've only got to see the frenzy over the touchpad firesale with people unable to buy them for £89/£115 willing to shell out £250 on ebay for something that's virtually unsupported, heavy and thick, to see there are a lot of people willing to get a tablet, it's just these people are not prepared to pay Ipad prices.
I can see this, I'm sure most of you can too. Why manufactures think they can compete with the ipad at the same price (often with much poorer designed goods) well only they know.
Only, I'm not sure if you meant the statement to apply to all tablet manufacturers, but the non-Apple manufacturers aren't making a huge profit on these things. The iPad competitors are trying hard to get into the market by cutting margins cut to the bone, hoping that as the market increases in size and their volumes pick up, margins get added back in. Apple have a lock on all the most important lines of supply for 10" screen capacitative displays and a lock on Flash memory.The problem is, the PC market is already low margin and so a very risky business. If the tablet market STARTS on the same footing it isn't necessarily so good for the consumer as might at first be thought. Low margins destroy R&D and innovation. Why do most laptops still, after all these years, not have GPS built in as standard?
Wether Apple make 1c or $300 per iPad is irrelevant, the revenue stream is the sale of Apps. Over 10 billion sold and over 30 million downloaded every day. Even though a great majority of these are free the paid for ones are still a huge number. In 2010 Apple's App Store revenue was $1.78 billion.
Until the other hardware manufacturers fully get to grips with the Gillette approach, sell the hardware cheap and make money on the consumables (i.e. content , apps etc) then they will all fail. Its surprising that the first one to throw in the towel is HP which fully understands this model as printers have been their most profitable line for a while.
@Ojustaboo, you're 90% right. The only thing I take issue with is that while Apple is making big profits at that price (and could lower it if they needed to), the other manufacturers are barely breaking even, if that.
The reason is that Apple is buying – hell paying in advance, or even giving suppliers the cash to build the factory with – components and assembly services in such volume that they get much better prices than anyone else.
It's add supported and doesn't get all that good reviews because of this
I go onto my Galaxy Tablet, open up Android Market, search for either Scrabble or Scrabble free and there's zero sign of it anywhere.
Further to that, I've now worked out why it doesn't show up on my tablet. When I try to install it via my PC from your link, I get the message "This item cannot be installed in your device's country"
So it's not actually available in the UK.
I search about once a month to see if ones been released, so was surprised I had missed it, but now I know why :)
I said I dont want an iPad, I want a tablet
is there proof that these will be bought? no. all thats been said is that they will SHIP 20m ipads - just like the Android 'shipping' - it doesnt mean they'll be bought. what happens if there is a hidden saturation level and all iPad 'wanters' run out after 3m more have been sold?
already I have seen that I can now just buy an iPad in a store where previously they've always been sold out...
Watch out for the downvotes!!
, you just called out the emperor by saying "saturation" and observing that these things are actually on the shelves now for anyone who wants it. Don't stop the FURY! don't talk about a stop to the FURY! the FRENZY must continue, or I won't be able to give appull money this xmas.!!!.
oh wait I'm drooling on my Ipad...
I seem to remember reading that Asus's lappad Transformer was doing rather well, probably because it sold with a keyboard as a 'computer' with a detachable screen. I bought one myself, where I would never buy just a pad.
A fad is a time thing, the pads could still be one, even with many sold.
Also, could we have a 'raving fanboi' label on the Reg's authors please? Just so I'm ready for the drooling and the raving and the waving of arms and so on in the article.
but they'll also show you there is a market for $99 versions from HP.
I think the iPad is too expensive, so an (and)Roid version at the same price is still too much.
Probably going to get flamed for this, but Androids will have to take a discount to sell. An Android version would have to be at least $100 less, if not closer to half the price of an iPad in order to get people to switch their buying decision. That cheaper slab might also find a few of us cheapskates. Selling all of the products at the same price just helps to steer everyone to Apple.
"that runs programs (not "apps"). Windows or Linux but something that will be supported for years to come not WebOS or some other twaddle that is bound for obsolescence in a year or two."
You are the sort that wants to reprogram his tumble drier - most people just want a device that is easy to use, is reliable and does the job for which it was intended - they do not want to recompile kernels, SSH off a POP in Switzerland etc.
No surprise then the iPad is doing so well. I suspect many / most people who critisize it so strongly have not 'actually' used it.
"Probably going to get flamed for this, but Androids will have to take a discount to sell. An Android version would have to be at least $100 less, if not closer to half the price of an iPad in order to get people to switch their buying decision."
$100 is not really significant at that price level - people want iPads 'anyway' so 15% less is not really going to swing it - they need to be half the price - or less. As has been shown Android tablets at a similar price just do not sell - the only time they sell is to people who want to spend $200 and are willing to accept (significant) shortcomings.
I like the continued use of these kind of pejoratives, they set the tone of the comment pretty quickly and make it easier to decide whether it is worth your while reading the rest of the rant.
You know anyone who uses one of the following has nothing worthwhile to say and can be either ignored or treated with contempt : crapple, iPoo, iWank, M$, Mickeysoft, Mickey$oft, Micro$haft, Windoze, Winblows, Wikipaedia, DailyMail
You know anyone using one of the following has an agenda but they may occasionally make a valid point: anything ending in "-tard", JesusPhone, St. Jobs, Monkey Boy (for SB), fondleslab, fanboi
Just as you know that anyone who types in all caps or uses multiple question / exclamation marks, or writes pseudo-code in comments that have fuck-all to do with coding, or starts lists at "0" has a sub-80 IQ and needs to be treated as the "special" person they are.
Asked and answered I think.
Anyone who uses the term "fondleslab" is either someone who sees tablets as simply toys - in which case you know their point will be one of "it's too expensive", "a laptop is better" or "I don't see a need for one so nobody should be able to see a need for one" or they are trying to be ironic / amusing / aping El Reg in which case their post may be amusing and insightful, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Not saying I disagree with the use of any of these terms, I use many equivalent terms myself, just saying that you can often infer as much from the choice of terms used as the rest of post itself.
M$ - you know what I'm talking about, and they did some shitty behavior for a long time just to make BillG and Monkey Boy rich - and yes see the you tube video if you haven't yet of Monkey Boy hopping around and yelling, Monkey boy is pretty nice, Gibbering idiot would be even more apt, but then people might confuse who your talking about with a lot of the politicians and lawyers.
St. Jobs, JesusPhone - gives them too much credit if you ask me, but really they are so over hyped you would think he was sainted, and that the phone could do miracles, when it in fact lacked simple cut and paste for the longest time. Apple fanboi... well come on they act that way and too many of them are proving that people will buy something religiously regardless of the hidden costs or damage to free market. (Google etc all have fanbois too)
Pejoratives are useful sometimes, as they help us succinctly describe what we are trying to say, any time I am talking about Greed or Monopoloies, and mention Microsoft, it is just easier to type M$, and EVERYONE (<-see that emphasis I used just there) knows what I am talking about.
However, I will fully agree with you that they are used too much, and the more of them you see in a post, the easier it is to skip over. I do like the word freetard, but its meaning has been to subjugated to be used correctly. A "freetard" SHOULD mean someone who thinks (like a retarded person) that everything should be free. It instead is used to describe: people who support free software, people who are against restrictive IP laws and onerous copyright etc.
...but they make the poster look childish and rude, and undermines what ever point was supposed to be made. IMHO at least.
As a bit of a Linux zealot, I always cringed when someone on "my side" used names like Micro$haft Exploder. That kind of immature behaviour wasn't, and isn't, helpful.
My point was that I don't consider fondleslab pejorative. But I admit to thinking of my own Asus fon^Wtablet as a toy to a large extent (but a bloody useful toy), so I suppose I fit your stereotype nonetheless.
"So the numbers of non-ipads shipped to retailers don't count because they aren't actually sold, but the production numbers of a manufacturer for an unnamed client can be interpreted as actually sold ipads?"
So who else would have ordered 20m tablets?
If you read the article you would see that Apple are selling ALL THEY CAN MAKE - so they order 20m as they fully expect to sell them all and also it explained that they had to explain to their shareholders why they were not selling more - i.e. they COULD NOT MAKE ANY MORE QUICK ENOUGH.
If you insist on qualifying with the criteria "same capacity" then you are correct in that I can find no non-Apple tabs more expensive than the equivalent iPad. There have been examples raised on El Reg but I am disinclined to look for them.
I will happily amend my previous statement to take this into account, being the same price does not make something vastly more expensive because it has an Apple logo though, as was your implication.
"Spelling error there: I'm sure it meant to say "People don't want expensive devices of minimal/specialist use, they want *heinously* expensive devices of minimal/specialist use with an Apple logo on the back"."
Except you are wrong and they do. Who actually wants a netbook or notebook that is far bigger and heavier with perhaps a battery life of a few hours - when they can have an iPad to watch / listen to media, surt, email, Facebook, Skype - i.e. all the stuff people actually 'do'.
I have a notebook (which I now use as a desktop effectively - i.e. it never moves off my desk) and a netbook I used to use frequently but since getting an iPad it's been used perhaps 3-4 times this year - the iPad is used every day.
Sure some people will say they need a physical keyboard or prefer a netbook but that's not the case for most, normal users - they want an iPad as it's got a better screen, is easier to use, runs for up to 10 hours before needing a charge and is smaller and lighter, no 'startup' just instant on.
It boggles me that something costing $600 is in the realms of Xmas Gift giving for such an abundance of people if, Foxxcon's figures are to be believed.
Personally I find the whole exchange of goods at Xmas a nonsense but fully understand why the vast majority buy into it (literally). But still, $600 for one gift for one person?
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There's one question the Android-based manufacturers need to ask themselves when they design a tablet.
Will this be 90% as good as an iPad, for 80% of the retail price?
If it is, they'll sell and if it isn't then they won't. That means base models at around £300 and a user experience that's as near as dammit to what you get on an iPad. When Samsung, HTC and a few others got there with Android phones, they sold well.
Those new Sony tablets that were announced this week aren't going to sell because they cost too much. There's a fair bit of 'badge' in the price of anything Apple and everyone else needs to substantially undercut it, even Sony.
I'd quite like an iPad (it's the only bit of Apple kit I've got any desire to buy) but can't justify £400+ for a web browser for the sofa. The Android tabs will get there - my guess is sometime next year - and then their sales will get a lot healthier.
...by which time Apple will be way ahead and the same thing will apply. Give up and buy one, you know you want to. And by the way, once you've got the thing you'll find it does way more than browse. Mine is also a handy 8-track recording studio/practice amp/guitar tutor/piano tutor. Among many other things.
Apple deservedly own the tablet market by getting themselves into a position where they can keep the manufacturing cost low enough and the desirability factor high. Kudos to them but they can't be unique in that forever.
I don't own any Apple products but my kids love their MP3 players. Recently cost me 96 pounds and a lot of messing to get a broken headphone port fixed. Next stop is 56 pounds for a replacement battery. When it's time for me to buy a tablet I am going to remember this!
That's why they sell so many of them. Duh!
And for those that can't afford them, there's the cheap-by-comparison knock-offs that are stuffed full of compromises, kludges, workarounds and shite operating systems and "apps".
Can't or won't stump up for the real thing? Get an android looky-likey. It will be to an iPad what a Halfords bike is to a Specialized StumpJumper - which is why the Halfords scaffold-poles-welded-into-the-shape-of-a-bike is £175 and a StumpJumper is £1600. Go figure.
I don't want a tablet, and I certainly don't want an overpriced one with an Apple logo.
I live a sheltered life and have only recently actually seen a iPad outside of a shop.
I was distinctly unimpressed. No flash was made it virtually useless as a web browser. Basically it's just an overgrown PSP. Nice screen, until someone touched it then YUK. Naff all connectivity. Seemed like a seriously expensive way of playing childish games. Nothing wrong with that if it floats your boat - just doesn't float mine.
They'll sell millions more, they are a fashion accessory pure and simple. Look how many trainers Nike sell.
I was sure the iPad was going to be a fad. I don't understand people anymore clearly. It can't be just because it's a status symbol. The whole idea of tablets seems strange to me. Why they're outselling laptops when price and function are in favour of laptos I don't know.
Is the world going to wake up in 3 years time and see the devices they bought weren't worth it?
Your mistake is in comparing a tablet to a laptop. It may not be the same as comparing apples with oranges it is certainly similar to comparing, say, a pushbike to a motorbike.
People who want tablets want a tablet - they want instant on, long battery life, easy to use, simple update processes (no patch Tuesday, no AV updates all the time) and app-based functionality. They want to browse the web, play games, read eBooks & eNewspapers, watch films, play music and the like.
Although you can do these on a laptop, you can't do them as easily or as elegantly. laptops are comparatively heavy, more awkward to move around due to the folding screen and tendency to go to sleep if the screen is shut and take a non-trivial amount of time to become available before they can be used. If they are waiting for software updates it can slow things down dramatically.
I agree you would be less than sage-like if you bought an iPad as a direct laptop replacement and then tried to do all the things you did on a lappy on your pad, but people buy these things because they [the tabs] do what they want much better than their old laptop used to, for a similar kind of cost of a new laptop.
"People who want tablets want a tablet - they want instant on, long battery life, easy to use, simple update processes (no patch Tuesday, no AV updates all the time) and app-based functionality. They want to browse the web, play games, read eBooks & eNewspapers, watch films, play music and the like."
Sorry, you're trying to give a rational explanation to a lot of people that complain that the iPad is not a "proper computer" (I want ports! Linux! User-serviceable parts! 27-inch screens! Keyboards! Whaaaaa!)
I totally agree with you, but you're wasting your time.
"I was sure the iPad was going to be a fad. I don't understand people anymore clearly. It can't be just because it's a status symbol. The whole idea of tablets seems strange to me. Why they're outselling laptops when price and function are in favour of laptos I don't know."
You not seen Star Trek or most 'future' films - they are using 'pads' not laptops - a keyboard - how quaint!
"I was distinctly unimpressed. No flash was made it virtually useless as a web browser."
Not my experience - sure a few web sites use Flash but the vast majority look just fine without it or have even done iPad or HTML 5 versions for mobiles devices like the iPad.
I have no love of Flash.
"There's one question the Android-based manufacturers need to ask themselves when they design a tablet. Will this be 90% as good as an iPad, for 80% of the retail price?"
Like a VW but not?
More like 75% as good as an iPad but 90-100% the cost - compare like for like - for instance the Morotola or RIM tablets with the Apple iPad.
With the iPhone a SIM free Samsung Galaxy S II is near enough he same cost as an iPhone 4 and you get better support from Apple. Do Samsung have shops you can go to and get decent assistance from someone familiar with the product = no.
Go buy your tablet from Tesco / PC World etc. and see what support you get = near enough none.
Without getting into the tablet v laptop debate, I'll suggest one reason why the iPad is beating the competition.
I have an iPad. My wife was using it more than 50% of the time (try mounting a laptop on a music stand to show sheet music) so we went to get her one of her own.
She's no Apple fan, so asked to see some Android devices at the shop. The first app she tried on the store demo model crashed. So did the second, though it lasted longer. The iPad apps just worked and were faster and smoother. Add a bigger screen and both devices at the same price point, and guess what we went home with?
Here's a hint for the haters. If you want to criticise Apple's iPad, ignore the device and go for the iTunes interface on the PC. This is a user-hating (forget 'unfriendly') counter-intuitive pile of steaming weasel turds.
I initially thought the iPad was stupid, so did my friends. They they started buying iPad2's and seemed very happy with the purchase even months latter. So I bought one and I'm still using mine on a daily basis.
Apple's selling them as fast as they can make them, surveys indicate that customer satisfaction is both high and doesn't diminish much over time.
Hopefully by the time I'm ready for my next tablet purchase there will be some compelling and highly successful alternatives.
I absolutely love how easy it is to see who the thin skinned Apple fabois are. The ones that can't get past "Crapple" and read what I was commenting on. The ones that favor slick marketing over usable form and substance, like me wanting a "tablet" that runs programs that are actually productive instead of time wasting?
BTW, Rob Dobbs and nine other rational people get my point. The other 51 are apparently employed by Crapple and several appear to have been hatched from pods with absolutely no sense of humor.
"Tablet" is a broad general description (Sorry Crapple), one that could certainly include something bigger than the ipad but hopefully smaller than the Ten Commandments. There are plenty of "inexpensive" laptops in the $398 to $598 range that have most of the features I'm looking for. All I am asking for is something similar but in "tablet" form. For those unable to fathom what I mean, touchscreen surface mounted display, no keyboard or trackpad. Rounded corners are just common sense not a patentable feature.
Windows or Linux - Really what was so difficult to understand? I'm not looking for a frikkin phone or fondleslab, I want one to use for work. I trust that some OS manufacturer has the brains to provide a shell that allows touchscreen operation of the OS and business productivity software such as Word, Excel and Outlook (or a reasonable, fully compatible, facsimile)
Next, 8 to 12 hours "reasonable operation" - This battery life corresponds with the time I have to spend in the field, working. Notice the last word, it may be foreign to some of you slab fondling wankers. If a Li-Po cordless drill works for 4 hours, they can make a tablet battery work for at least 8 hours.
AMD will have Fusion out very soon and others have similar one chip combo GPU/CPU products that are already able to support 1080P. Some of these may not need a fan if they are clocked low enough. Windows 8 running on ARM could be the answer but I won't hold my breath. Hell, Windows CE wasn't that bad to work with (in my business anyway) When beancounters tried to push it out as a replacement for the "real thing" was when it was useless.
As far as running productivity software, I distinctly remember running the old versions of Word, Excel & Outlook on an 800 megahertz processor with a whopping 1 gig of ram and Windows 98. If you take the useless bullcrap out of software (Hear me Marketing Mavens?) and code it like you only have 64k of memory (figuratively for the excessively literal ones out there), it will run just fine.
I proudly admit I am an "oddball engineer that doesn't fit into your focus group".
I'm a building automation and control instrumentation engineer. Oddball for sure, not many of us out here. Ever hear of Programmable Logic Controllers? No, I guessed as much. That's where all of these ARM chips got their start, running your industrial plants and buildings in hot humid locations, no fans, no AC, high reliability, critical control, and none of you have the faintest idea of our business.
I want the tablet I speccd so our people have a tool to communicate with and setup industrial equipment, cameras, airhandlers, chillers, security systems etc, etc, etc as well as do time sheets, get email, read tech manuals, access internet and various industrial communication protocols.
Now would all you hypercritical OCD fanbois all find a cliff and follow the rest of the lemmings over it? Please?
OK I read your post, it was actually worse horseshit than I thought it would be. But to answer your points / rants:
"like me wanting a "tablet" that runs programs that are actually productive instead of time wasting?"
They pretty much all are capable of this. Just because you can't find the app you want doesn't mean the hardware is rubbish.
""Tablet" is a broad general description (Sorry Crapple), "
Apple prefer "iPad" derivatives as that is their brandname, however the product is a tablet so not sure what your point was there, other than another chance to show us how clever you are by using "Crapple" instead of "Apple".
"There are plenty of "inexpensive" laptops in the $398 to $598 range that have most of the features I'm looking for. All I am asking for is something similar but in "tablet" form."
Try an iPad - it fits the description you gave almost perfectly.
"Windows or Linux - Really what was so difficult to understand? I'm not looking for a frikkin phone or fondleslab, I want one to use for work."
And here is the crux - you arbitrarily want something Apple don't make and then complain that Apple don't make it. Like me whining that Ford don't make Ferraris.
"I trust that some OS manufacturer has the brains to provide a shell that allows touchscreen operation of the OS and business productivity software such as Word, Excel and Outlook (or a reasonable, fully compatible, facsimile)"
Try an iPad - it does this.
"Next, 8 to 12 hours "reasonable operation""
Again, try an iPad.
"As far as running productivity software, I distinctly remember running the old versions of Word, Excel & Outlook on an 800 megahertz processor with a whopping 1 gig of ram and Windows 98."
Some of us remember running WordPerfect under DOS, what is your point?
"code it like you only have 64k of memory (figuratively for the excessively literal ones out there), it will run just fine."
Try an iPad - runs just fine with whatever program you using.
"Ever hear of Programmable Logic Controllers? No, I guessed as much. "
I was programming PLCs back in the 90s - but on a more rational point, just because you are using dated solutions to old problems it doesn't mean you get to be the sage voice when it comes to modern technology. I humbly suggest the opposite is the case.
"Now would all you hypercritical OCD fanbois all find a cliff and follow the rest of the lemmings over it? Please?"
I think you are the one being hypercritical, a simple criticism would have worked plenty to get the point across but instead you fit it into two of the longest rants posted on El Reg in a long time. In fact us "fanbois" are not actually being critical at all.
Time for your medication I fear.