London rioters should 'loose all benefits' Amid angry calls for UK rioters to face plastic bullets, water cannon, the Army, a spell in the Army, jail or all of the above, comes this e-petition demanding that the feral youth of Britain be stripped of their state hand-outs. Or rather, it insists that convicted public disorder offenders "loose all benefits", which we …
Cut the benefits and they all have bugger to lose, so they start up again, we then have to pull them in once more and lock 'em up, which costs us more money!
Catch them and have them out doing community service orders, digging ditches, clearing gutters and drains, plenty of waste grounds need clearing of rubbish, in fact plenty of city streets right now need cleaning up! All that raw man-power is going to waste. They have enough energy to smack the front of TESCO and COMET in, they have enough energy to do some manual work helping the local communities they live in, I'll happily pay for wardens to make sure they're on chain-gangs doing their bit!
there baby making 18 year old's(that are now maybe 30 ish) could lose all benefits like child benefits as well
the problem is that the system is setup in an way that you get Child benefits so the poorer end of the people make baby's so they get the benefits, the government need to fix this issue but not sure how
That benefits to those who could, but won't, work productively for a living are basically a bribe to encourage them not to commit crime?
Working for a living is a perfectly valid alternative for these people, rather than state hand-outs, or crime.
If you are prepared to stand ankle deep in shit and shovel all day, there will always be a job for you. It's often a question of pride, or more alarmingly, that they are far better off on benefits than working. Enough people have come to this country to find work - and have found it - that the argument that they can't find a job is simply bullshit. Unemployed people are too lazy too chase a job, or too proud to do the sort of work available. I am not - before you spit out your cornflakes - suggesting that those people who are between jobs and waiting for the RIGHT opportunity to come up are in the wrong here - and these people very often support themselves during such times.
I bet most of the people reading this site have a job, and have to grind the 9-5, and weren't out looting. Why should you tolerate other people not playing by the rules, and taking on the consequences of cleaning up after these scum?
Fill the water cannon with bleach and really clean up the streets next time they riot. And maybe the media can stop pushing chavdom in our faces constantly - I really don't give a shit what Kerry Katona is doing now, and I wouldn't give you a pint of cold sick for a magazine with Jordan's latest self promotion in. Stupidity and being lauded for nothing more than looks or outrageous behaviour is a tired and pathetic story and we should no longer give it any column inches.
AC, cause this is spoken from anger, and I'd rather people didn't start thinking I read the Daily Fail or something like that.
You seem literate enough to be able to have figured out why this argument is hot air. Google UK literacy rates, go on, I dare you. When the Polish immigrants have better English than you do, you're slightly screwed.
Literacy rates have been appalling since at least 1999 (OECD report - 22% of adults functionally illiterate) and are not getting better (BBC News, 2011, "1 in 5" adults illiterate). Why? Because dicks across the country prefer to talk shit about the failures in our socioeconomic system being the fault of the underclass, and do nothing.
Now we have riots and you'll still bury your fucking heads in the sand.
Next stop: full-blown bloody revolution. And they've proved that they get away with it now.
These riots have sickened me. Not the riots per se, you understand, but the ignorant self-centered reactionary responses of the majority of the population. I'm surprised the Tories didn't get a landslide; this country is full of fascists wearing red roses.
i much prefer my petition, to use the DfID budget to create a Corps of peacekeepers....... which could act as a Military Aid to Civilian Authorities force quite adequately, and would allow the army to get on with what they are supposed to do; invading other peoples countries.
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/2375
As in officers of the polis? Very good, Sir!
Sadly, I suspect that State Auxiliaries, or SA, would be the more likely outcome of any populist, knee jerk reaction ostensibly aimed at reinforcing the official police. It's like the habit, in the USA, of passing laws named after dead kids - stuff that seems a good idea at the time, to some, usually turns out to have some pretty grim unintended consequences, for many.
Saw the misspelled petition... I don't think taking money away from those that have already shown they are willing to steal things they want, is really the best idea.
I'm more in favour of reintroducing stocks and pillories. You show disrespect for your local community, then let them show the feeling is mutual.
I mean 6 weeks for disrupting an important state related court proceeding seems pretty fair to me.
You wouldn't want someone to think that dissenters could just out-pie anything they disagreed with?
Though I am so glad he did it, and personally wished the pie was made something much more toxic
My view on looting and vandalism is simple - those convicted of such should be indentured and made to work until they pay off the damage they have caused, plus interest at the rate of inflation (whichever is higher, RPI or CPI during that time), plus the cost of feeding them during their indenture.
No TV, radio, playstations, and those that do not complete their daily quota of work do not get fed the next day.
This falls in line with my own thoughts, since we have outsourced pretty well everything to save a bob or two. Why not outsource the custodial sentences to somewhere that can do this stuff cheaper than the UK?
Even better idea let them work off their debts to society elsewhere, indenture them out to countries that have this sort of experience, and get paid. There are plenty of middle eastern countries that have this sort of arrangement.
Slave labour. Oh yes, that should sort out the problems of unequal wealth distribution and 25% youth unemployment in jig time.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that you haven't thought it through. It would have consequences, and you need a plan to deal with those.
I used to do contracting, and one of the downsides is you can sometimes go between contracts. During those times you may wander down to your local Job Center (or whatever they call them today) and mingle with the professionally unemployed. Yes, I mean the deliberately unemployed. Whilst there are plenty of people between jobs and looking for work, there are also plenty looking for every excuse to avoid it and just live off benefits. They are usually deckled out in branded clothing, wearing expensive watches and wavin ground mobile phones. I was astounded at some of the conversations I overheard the last time I visited a Job Center, including advice on how to flunk an interview, fake disabilities, and scam benefit inspectors. There are plenty of jobs out there, there are just also plenty of people that seem to believe they are due a free ride off the hard work of others. The problem is we still let the workshy vote, so the politicians won't ever bring in real measures to deal with them.
All that is promised is that if it gains 100,000 signatures (and it will) then the subject of what to do with the rioters will be debated in parliament.
I believe the phrase has to do with one Mr Holmes suffering constipation. Does anyone here not expect this subject to be debated in parliament?
Yes the subject of what to do with the rioters will be debated in parliament. Tomorrow in fact.
However, the possibility of withdrawing their benefits might not have been discussed without this petition. Given that the website has now crashed under the load of people wanting to sign it, it might not have managed to get the 100,000 signatures, or even if it has, David Cameron might not be able to get on there tomorrow morning to see if it has, but that possibility should now be discussed.
As to what to do with them once they need food, I suggest opening up a few workhouses for them.
many on welfare here, have more children just to get a bigger welfare cheque. You can tell it doesn't go to looking after the children, but the bar for removing children is so high it hardly ever happens and the bar for these parents getting their little pay cheques back is so low it's a joke. That to adoption. The biological parents of the children have far too much opportunity to get them back from the prospective parents for a year. I know people who won't even try to adopt after they've been to a few sessions and learned about the process.
Sorry for getting off topic, just trying to think of possible future remedies to the issue of non-parenting that is at the root of the issue.
You mean from social workers like Jake Davis's mother? Yeah, she did such a good job - not! Just make them "repay" their debt to society with a few years in a chaingang, then put them on probation terms of straight back to the chaingang if they re-offend in the following ten years after release. They can claen out London's sewers by hand.
Whilst I have no sympathy for these idiots, taking any benefits they receive (although primary school teachers earn wages) will only force them into committing crime, since they will be reduced to crime or starvation.
The idiots need to be punished, but I think we should leave that to the courts.
Because they have demonstrated a rational response: 6 moths for a bottle of water? 4 years for inciting riot (while the hook did it every day for years with no penalty) that had no discernible effects, while MPs simply walk away from stealing from public coffers via expenses? I think the example to the public has been set at the highest levels.
And it was not just the unemployed taking part, there were educated, employed people, joining in the frolics.
Excusing them? no not in the least, but with everything else that has been happening I find it difficult to condemn outright.
The more I think about it the greyer it gets.
(From a friend)
Also known as I Don't Care About The Consequences Just Make Those Baddies Go Away... a point for everything you spot on Twitter/ Facebook/ chat site of your choice.
1) Call in the Army
2) I'm so proud that racist thugs are patrolling the high street to 'defend the community'
3) Shut down the Internet
4) Shut down the mobile phone networks
5) Blame the mothers
6) Ban violent videos/ computer games
7) Ban gangsta rap (even though saying this proves you are old as gangsta rap now unfashionable with the yoot)
8) Have a curfew
9) Multiculturalism isn't working
10) At least everyone's stopped fussing about Murdoch and phone hacking
11) Let the Police use Rubber Bullets
12) Bring back National Service
13) Bring back the Birch
14) Bring back the Stocks
15) Bring back the Death Penalty
(burned down) HOUSE!
Fail yourself, because you missed the bit that says "I Don't Care About The Consequences Just Make Those Baddies Go Away"
Too many people are willing to say "Fuck Civil Liberties" as soon as any trouble breaks out and they're happy to come up with lists like that which will "solve" the problem.
The fact that what that will leave after may be *worse* doesn't seem to occur to them. (Remember ID cards et al? What if we had them now? Would the Rioters be carrying them? Should the Police stop *everyone* on the streets and check them for ID cards and arrest *anyone* who doesn't have one, even if you've just popped down to the shops, come back to find trouble has kicked off and you forgot to pick up yours??)
Well there is a fine line that got blurred this week. A protest can turn into a riot and then looting simply by taking a sensitive situation and throwing in some violent thugs.
When the protesters were kettled at the G20 last year it made me want them to fight the police. But instead they just let the police do what ever they liked. AT the same time actual rioters were smashing banks windows and the police were letting them.
People can't comprehend that police can chose to allow this stuff or chose to tackle it. Just because the looters get away with it does not mean the police could not cope and need more powers. People also can't comprehend that powers to tackle looters and rioters will be applied to protesters since effectively it's all degrees of the same thing.
As I was waiting for tonight's helicopter spotting (I live near the Blues ground in Birmingham which is on a slight rise and affords a 270 degree view of the city centre) I read this and deposited most of a mug on the (purchased and paid for) LCD.
As a housing association tenant, can I remind everyone that I have a legally binding tenancy agreement that has clauses covering antisocial behaviour but limited to immediate neighbours? Salford Housing managers appear to have forgotten about the law. See the BBC twit feed for 1733. We have housing officers reviewing CCTV footage. Since when did they become judge, jury and bailiff? Madness.
Seriously, as I'm addressing a group of puzzle solving challenge accepting types of higher than normal intelligence, PLEASE have a look at
http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/
and cogitate.
Black helicopters because that is what you'll get if you let the tabloids dictate the response.
"We have housing officers reviewing CCTV footage. Since when did they become judge, jury and bailiff? Madness"
I dont disagree with your sentiments; however the contract you signed as a tenant is a civil one. If someone has broken their contract then they can evict you. Of course you can contest this in a court of law (as is your right)
5) Blame parents. Why not? Shouldn't they shoulder a decent proportion of the blame? Why was their 11-year old out at 3am?
8) Have a curfew. Would have helped, actually. As the police said, there were huge problems caused by people hanging around watching. Having a curfew doesn't mean those out are shot dead, you know.
9) Multiculturalism isn't working. I thought this was accepted knowledge now.
12) Bring back National Service. Why is this such a ridiculous idea? Compulsory education to 18, then for 18-21 you either are at university, in an apprenticeship, or join the army? While there you pick up qualifications, learn to actually show up for work and do things, and so on. Germany still has National Service, and their civil liberties seem fine.
"5) Blame parents. Why not?"
How many of the rioters are 11?
"8) Have a curfew. Would have helped, actually."
Right, so have a curfew where anyone on the street is an automatic suspect and is rounded up and arrested. Great for all those people trying to go about their lawful business without let or hindrance.
"9) Multiculturalism isn't working. I thought this was accepted knowledge now."
Only in the Daily Mail.
"12) Bring back National Service. Why is this such a ridiculous idea? [...] Germany still has National Service"
If you hadn't noticed (of course you hadn't or even bothered to check, you'd know that a) German National Service was only compulsory for men and b) They stopped it as of July 2011. Oh and c) German civil liberties *aren't* fine because they have restrictions on freedom of expression, data retention laws and monitoring of the senders and recipients of e-mails, phone calls and other electronic communications.
Still, judging from your comments, you probably think that that's a perfectly acceptable situation...
National service may well keep the kids off the streets and maybe even benefit a couple of them. It would, however, be a bad move for the forces. The UK operates a small, highly-trained, motivated professional volunteer force. Everyone there chose to be there.
If we were to dump tens of thousands of angry youths on the forces, they would have to come up with a lot of extra money and resources to deal with them. For many of them it would effectively be a prison camp. Good people would be taken from their real duties and forced to babysit people who don't want to be there. The days of needing cannon fodder in the UK forces are behind us and many of the conscripts would be totally unusuable for important duties; I wouldn't trust them with anything that needed doing well, not paperwork, not maintenance, not supply, certainly not combat - I can't think of a single role in the forces that I'd feel comfortable assigning an angry, surly conscript to; they'd be passed from pillar to post, nothing more than an extra burden on the forces. The UK armed forces are not prison wardens, teachers or babysitters for tens of thousands of people with no interest in it. It would sap resources and morale and at the end of it they'd just be dumped back onto the streets.
Agreed, national service in the old form of military duty would be a bad idea, but then it would be a much better idea to bring back chaingangs and make the scum work for local councils. The councils can then spend money that would have been spent on employing third-parties to tender to do other jobs that would have been off the table due to budget restrictions. And for all those that would say this would impact third-parties by taking away opportunities to bid for council business, it doesn't as more opportunities would be offered from the extra money available by not having to pay for the work done by the chaingangs.
I'd suggest a jailterm broken down into two phases - the first half you do good ol' hard-time, this is the punishment bit; then you go before a review board, and if you've behaved you get the next quarter of your sentence spent on training for a trade, the re-education part; then another review and if you pass you spend the last quarter on parole. Misbehave at any stage of the process and it's back to repeating the hard-time half of your sentence again. Rinse and repeat as necessary. And I really don't care if that means some stupid scum get to waste their whole lives in prison, it's probably cheaper than having them out on benefits and committing crimes anyway.
And to quash the usual and predictable leftie/Libtard squealing - I don't read the Daily Fail or watch Fox News.
Trust me, the army knows how to deal with angry youths. Its been doing that for a very long time. Its mostly about changing habit through the time honoured and accepted method of - keeping you so knackered that you have little energy left at the end of the day for rebellious though, let alone action. Before you know it, you are voluntarily polishing your mess tins for inspection.
Ok so I was a volunteer but there were guys in my platoon who were offered the Army or far less pleasant alternatives (by a magistrate I think). I don't think it was widespread, but he was from Manchester, who I think invented angry : )
But I am opinionated and from Scotland so WTF do I know eh ? actually since I'm from Scotland I could probably leave out the opinionated :)
Most will be aware of the Darwinian Award - idiots remove themselves from reproduction thereby improving the quality of the gene pool. I am in total favour of permanent riddance of these gangs that blight decent society.
Interviews with one of the rioters/looters showed an arrogant total disregard for society and that his parents would do nothing and at worst shout at him for 5 minutes. If arrested, he would get off with a caution for first offence or have an ASBO slapped on him. Big deal.
Should such an arsehole be allowed to reproduce? Will he at worst shout at his offspring for 5 minutes if his sprog in years to come went and beat someone up at a bus-stop? Bleeding hearts will accuse me of social engineering. Well, extreme circumstances require extreme solutions.
Actually you touch on a good point there, i know the human rights lobby will get up in arms on this one but im all up for serialization of REPEATED offenders, im not talk talking about slap on the wrist joe, im talking about billy boy who will not change, serialization would at least help stop innocent kids being brought up in a family who doesnt care and has no other intrest than sponging off the state and/or commiting crimes who by there own missfortune will more than likely end up doing the same or burning good peoples homes down.
Stop them reproducing will have the added effect of reducing the number of people being brought up in these circumstances there by helping to reduce crime rates from that one specific group and help keep the population in control, when i see "those" parents walking up the street shouting and swearing whilst slapping the arses of their 4 kids up the street i actually feel sick, but unless they give me their name an address i cant even report them to social, and the police cant do much unless their is proof of abuse
It will save us money, good children will be lesslikely to end up junky neds and perhaps we wouldnt have scenes like the last few nights in the future.
Impregnate all tracksuits and similar sports wear with a chemical than sterilises the wearer if they eat anything from Greggs while they're wearing it.
That way, the odd genuine sporty person will be OK, but the chavs could rut away to their hearts content without burdening the state with their flat headed offspring.
Hanging is *TOO* good for them. Lets bring back the stocks.
Those convicted get stocks erected in the immediate vicinity of their crime and are required to be strung up there, completely naked.
The government meanwhile sets up a rotten fruit stall nearby, the proceeds to go towards repairing their damage. The perpetrator meanwhile remains there from 9pm to 6am every night until they have fully repaid their debt to society, or until death.
I think the benefits should be loosed into a fund to compensate riot victims ;-)
In all serious though, while I really don't like paying for these scumbags' lives, I wonder whether the loss of benefits will mean they're even more likely to commit crimes. I suspect it's a more complex issue than the petitioners have realised.
Sherlock because he's not exactly needed to identify a lot of these rioters as they post their own photos on Twitface.
But if the only way they got them was to have to turn up for 10 hours a day 7 days a week starting at 8am, when they are usually still in bed, and do menial work in order to get their benefits then perhaps they will either get an interest in a real job or be too bloody knackered to be out on the streets causing problems.
"as we publish this from the Vulture Central insurrection-proof London bunker complex."
Nice.
Been trying to tell my fellow Merkins all morning that the Gun Lobby lies and that the (Western) Gun Culture is lazy and forgot to mention something: The reason 'self-defense' works is the law of Castle Doctrine (not available in the Washington, DC area), which removes uncertainty in self-defense. If I find an intruder in my living room at 3am, I can take whatever necessary steps to defend myself without further legal repercussions (excuse the pun please). In my case, that would be running like hell, because I don't own a gun. Nonetheless, there is no uncertainty in what I must do. The police have to assess, not me.
London merchants need Castle Doctrine, not guns. And after they have run like hell, the police have to handle it.
Quite apart from the spelling (and "loose" for "lose" is almost as prevalent as substituting "your" for "you're" or "could of" for "could have"), some London Councils are looking at evicting rioters from social housing.
http://www.southlondon-today.co.uk/news.cfm?id=29577&headline=%27If%20you%20riot%20in%20Southwark%20you%20risk%20losing%20your%20Southwark%20council%20flat%27
I can't recall it happening recently, but I'm sure it has happened in the past, however short of going back through all my old posts to find an example, I'll just have to keep an eye out for it in future.
I did wonder if it might have been due to the moderation process eg with reply posts somehow getting "disconnected" from the OP.
Just the opposite - they should get DOUBLE the benefits.
No, I am not joking. In a society which has no middle class the only way to prevent the 99.9% of "forever pleb" of hanging the rich on the streetlamps is to give them MORE bread and circuses.
What is happening now is a natural result of the destruction of British manufacturing. I have no nostalgia towards the days of British Rail, British Steel or British Leyland as I myself am a naturalised (and not proper natural) brit. So I am saying this from a purely pragmatic perspective.
A society where you have to plan further than tonight's booze and kebab, where you have to stay in work, where you stay in work for most of your life is actually a stable society. A society where you are in one job and work all of your life towards that fleeting promotion and the dream of your kids advancing on the social ladder is a stable society. A society where your goal in life is to advance them on that ladder is a stable society. It may not be necessarily globally competitive. It may require some nasty border and fiscal measures to remain afloat. It is however socially stable. It will not riot. I
A society where the workforce is "highly dynamic" (quotes intended), where people do not see the need to work like crazy to stay in their current job, where 99% see no way in hell for them or their progeny to advance the social ladder, where 90% are no longer even bothered with the idea that advancing may be worth it is not stable. It is a powder keg. It will riot and the only way to prevent it is to give BREAD AND CIRCUSES.
The bread has been cut down. The "Shag-n-tel" and "Fear the Paedo" circus has been trimmed. Of course there will be a freaking riot.
Example in hand - Roman (and later Vizantian) Empire. Up to around 3rd century BC romans had no need for bread and circuses because the cities were not full of people which "will never make it". Once the society became highly stratified Rome started building them and continued until the slave owner society was replaced by "assigned to the land colon" agricultural society around 3rd century AD. After that it did not need to build circuses and spread bread any more. The fleeting dream of buying your own land out and becoming a free landowner, not a tenant was more than enough to keep every one working their a**e off until their grave with no f*** circuses. Ditto for the Vizantian empire which existed along these lines for a thousand more years after that.
Example in hand - Russia. It went into meltdown and exploaded a century ago when the post-1860 reform dream of "seeking your fortune in the big city" turned sour and all those people seeking that dream realised that they have no chance of advancing the social ladder.
And so on. The list of examples should be continued.
OK, so now can we give them double the benefits. It is probably too late to reconsider the role of manufacturing and _DECREASED_ workforce mobility towards the stability of the society.
providing you're prepared to think sufficiently laterally
to rekindle manufacturing – plus many additional beneficial effects – it's as simple as adding a clause to GATT to say that goods/services from producer countries that have worse conditions of labor may be levied for import duty in proportion to a cost estimate of the value of such working conditions
trouble is that free trade is virtually a religion now, it would be rather an obstacle course to persuade its advocates to accept such a reinterpretation of it
Well, the best counterargument to GATT is GreenWash. Just add pollution fees.
They are roughly in line with work conditions so this achieves the same goal while being politically pallatable.
The moment goods and services from China and India will be charged in line with what they emit into the environment they will stop being competitive.
In any case - only disillusioned people riot. That is all that needs to be said here. A person who has a dream and is striving to achieve does not need to riot. That is the root cause and If that is not tackled we will have more of the same again, and again, and again.
Doubling the benefits may make the problem go away for now, but there are big big problems with that solution.
For one thing, benefits now are practically the same as you can get working on minimum wage. about 8 years ago I worked out that I was working 40+ hours per week and getting about £40 more than if I were out of work. Needless to say, I've changed jobs since...
Another issue is that it will only be a stopgap measure. In another 20 or so years the "yoof" will get unhappy again and it will all kick off again, so you double the benefits again? More and more of the productive economy will go towards those who can't be bothered to work, and that will encourage more and more to not work. This will inevitably lead to a situation where there's a small minority in work who have a much lower quality of work than those who laze about all day until they just quit. Goodbye Britain.
Speaking solely from the perspective of one who wishes the country to continue, surely a better long term solution would be to either Euthanise those who are not happy with their lot (if life's too hard, we can take away your problems) or at the very least neuter them, so they don't breed more feckless layabouts.
... NO CHILD BENEFIT / BENEFIT for ANYONE after the second child. (triplets / quadruplets at first birth excluded etc)
Yes, I know what you're all going to say, that's a tax on the poor procreating and the rich, who can normally better afford to bring their children up by their own means, will continue to do so. But, many better off peeps decide early that they will plan to only replace themselves. Many, many, more poorer folk decide wtf, we get hand outs for 'em so let's plan to keep at it as well. Of course this may not legislate against men fathering children by numerous mothers - unless fathers name / details are required to claim said benefit(s) of course.
No, I don't read the Daily Mail.
I just think that those kids whose destiny is to be brought up in relative poverty would be better off if there were fewer of them - they would be more to go round for each of them and who knows that might improve their chances of improving their own lot as it were.
Help them improve their surroundings by spending the same funds on teaching the youngsters the skills needed to improve where they live and you may see more pride and less prejudice.
I mean seriously. I'd also ask my (3) kids to avoid giving their tax contributions to people they dont like either, perhaps remove state pensions for people who do not have children (for whatever reason - its not my fault afterall) <sigh>
"I just think that those kids whose destiny is to be brought up in relative poverty would be better off if there were fewer of them - they would be more to go round for each of them and who knows that might improve their chances of improving their own lot as it were."
I hope you are trolling. There are *responsible parents* out there you know. The ones who actually look to see if they can afford children. Sure I get tax credits and child benefit (and salary sacrifice vouchers for me and the wife) but it *all* goes on childcare - thus the money goes back to the treasury and keeps people in jobs too (which stops other social issues).
Nearly as bad as Cameron saying society is sick. Not really. The actions of 1000 people cannot dictate the whole of society. There were just as many volunteering to clean up the mess afterwards but no front page was devoted to them.
"Help them improve their surroundings by spending the same funds on teaching the youngsters the skills needed to improve where they live and you may see more pride and less prejudice."
Fairly pointless. we operate an appenticeship scheme - for free as we do take on >25 year olds too. Not a single one has been taken on as staff as we cannot afford to. Neither can anyone else. So they are back on the scraphead albeit with skills. Skilled workforce is useless without jobs.
".....Skilled workforce is useless without jobs," Actually, I totally agree on that point, but probably not in the way you would think. I see pointless political memes around getting the numbers of graduates up, or getting all school-leavers to have some form of diploma, but that's just a numbers game. Vast numbers of Medieval History or Applied Dance grads are not going to help get the economy back on track. A few people have mentioned Egypt without realising the Egyptian youth are quite well educated (by Middle-Eastern terms anyway), it didn't stop their problems because there simply weren't the jobs for them to go to once they graduated. So, maybe we should scrap the vote-pandering plans to provide even more educational opportunities to a group of people that seem determined to ignore them anyway, and instead look to spend the money on jobs for those that actually do want to get ahead.
Catch them and have them out doing community service orders, digging ditches, clearing gutters and drains, plenty of waste grounds need clearing of rubbish, in fact plenty of city streets right now need cleaning up!
I've seen some of that... and it basically costs more to clear up AFTER the CSO than before.
Best answer is to just kill them, preferably slowly.
(And as Arnie said, you do the politicians first)
P.
Vengeance may sound good but only makes matters worse. The core problems are a lack of employment and respect for how cushy life in the UK is. No matter how squalid and impoverished. A more creative approach would be sentencing rioting looters to MANDATORY employment. Community service with a twist- a few months / years helping to rebuild <insert name of country> after a recent war and atrocities (or natural disaster) will provide material overseas aid, and teach the lesson that helping others in greater need than yourself is better than mindless violence fueled by materialistic greed. Maybe a few would apply those lessons when they come home and contribute to society. Finally, it would make one hell of a deterrent with a low number of reoffenders... Free suntan or not.
a lack of employment, although it is certainly an issue. The real issue is a lack of parental control over their progeny. It's too easy to have children to get a bigger pay cheque and if that's the reason many people are having babies you gotta know they ain't gonna be great parents. The rest of your post is full of good ideas.
This barely edges out the stupid cow I heard yesterday in a london hospital.
"anyone goes out their door or is on the street after 7pm, the police shoot on sight..."
Just going out to check the cars locked/still there/not a burning wreck...."
cue the sound of 9mm H&K automatics and a huge lawsuit.
One of the biggest reasons behind all this is the conservatives buggering about with the benefits system while the rich, well off, and the bankers get richer. To quote blackadder "Sir Talbot Buxomly MP, who supports hanging people for being poor".
So yeah, im sure cutting benefits (which will harm many more than just the rioters, and given the polices ability when it comes to correct identification, thats another story) will really quell the growing anger, misery and hatred of the police, government, everyone else.
"A masterly stroke if I may say so, prime minister... Your reputation is assured" gushed Sir Humphrey... Sotto voce "admittedly as the biggest british idiot since Elphinstone, but then its not my job on the line"
"Pardon Humphrey?"
"I said I'll just get the Minister for prisons on the line... Im sure Premier Inns have some spare capacity, after all there arent that many murderers we'd need to move..."
"Good man..."
is carried out by council tenants and the calls for them to lose their homes. What the F makes people think that all the rioters where on benefits? How would this sanction work with those not on benefits? what empty their bank accounts and sack them? Like the armchair generals asking to nuke the Taliban, this is utter tosh enunciated and supported by knee-jerk buffoons. This is surely the reason the petition for a debate system is going to fail.
As penalties in the justice system should affect those penalised equally , loss of benefits would equate to loss of job and clearing accrued savings. Benefits being calculated to the last ha'penny to leave you with no room for savings . (indeed my benefits rose at a rate of 10-15% of the increase charges for my care costs through the years '91-'95) It was really to illustrate how poorly thought through the petition was.
With most of them being young and looking for 'respec' from their peers, make any found guilt do community service in public while wearing a pink frilly tutu. I suspect that the humiliation alone would be enough to discourage them from doing it again.
As for taking away there benefit as others pointed out if they have no money for food they will just go out an rob again so give them food vouchers that can only be redeemed for food (not booze or cigs) and have it so there photo is printed on it so only they can use it and they cant just flogged it to there mate for cash.
Remove benefits they commit more crime, more crime gets them more prison time, prison time is very expensive.
As a taxpayer I reckon its cheaper for them to get their dole money than having to spend 2-3 grand a week keeping them in pokey -- which is like a holiday camp to them anyhow and where they just learn even more crime and make more underworld contacts.
Death's too good for them, etc, etc ...
I think these people who are trashing "our" streets should face the same punishment as the bankers who trashed "our" economy.
I mean, seriously, how many billions of damage have they done to shops? How does that compare to the billions of damage done by the bankers? (And if you think "that's different", try talking to someone who lost their job. Can you tell the difference between a boarded-up shop that's been foreclosed by its bank, or one that has been closed by a brick through its window? How many of each sort are there on YOUR local high street?)
I think it's healthy for a democracy to be reminded, maybe once a decade or so, that its government and police function largely by the consent of the population, and if they piss people off too badly there will be violent consequences.
The only thing loose is Boris Johnson's grip on the situation.
If his performance in Clapham yesterday were Simon Cowell being given a cold welcome on the X-Factor, his career would be over.
Somehow I think this is going to be a huge issue in London's Mayoral elections next year. Ken might well live up to an Arnold Schwarzenegger quote...
The Russians have plenty of suitable places. Any of the abandoned towns or villages would do - walls are not needed in places where the only way in or out is by air or a 500Km walk through Siberian forests. If they want to riot there, let them - they could burn down their own accommodation, although that might prove to be unwise when the temperature heads the wrong side of -40.
And it's a question no one in society seems to have even dared to ask:
"What does society do with the rejects?"
The problem with any form of test, evaluation, or even comparison is that you're going to--INEVITABLY--have people who don't measure up. So what do you do when you have people who have been (due to lack of intelligence, physical skill, moral character, or something else, or they're simply anti-social and gave society the finger) essentially judged not fit to contribute to society? Now, nature has an answer to that of course. So did Sparta. Unfortunately, most of western civilization seems leery of that kind of approach, but then the question rears itself again. If not left to the wolves, what do you do with them?
You could try finding out why they're "rejects" and how to (re)integrate them into society. Unless someone is seriously mentally damaged through some genetic flaw, there's no real reason why they can't be helped. So, maybe we can't do much for some serial killers anytime soon, but it shouldn't be that hard to help the disaffected citizens that simply feel ostracized and under attack by society.
The "disenfranchised" would probably not be considered rejects: rather as having some issue that needs to be corrected. When I speak of rejects, I speak of those who you have to realize simply cannot fit in: serial killers (which you mentioned), revolutionary idealists, and other people who, as I've put it before, give society the finger, Bras d'honneur, whatever; people too bent to set straight. How do you deal with people like that? And on a touchier note, what about the tragic people whose circumstance (think retardation or disability) makes their likelihood of being able to contribute productively very remote. I picked the icon because many would seem I am that way, but would be willing to call the hard life of the animal kingdom the spawn of Satan as well? And there's still the question itself to answer: "What does society do with the rejects?"
The subtler part of my point was that most of those people you mentioned really are simply disenfranchised. Often severely so. Those with substantial mental impairments that keep them from coexisting with other living creatures probably can't be helped much anytime soon. However, most people that don't fit into society come to that position through their interactions with society and its deficits. A couple of those types you listed, such as the revolutionary idealists and people who give society the finger are the type who would have found that society is lacking and has turned its back on them first. Depending on the person, it may take some extraordinary effort to show them that not everyone is as horrid as others that they have already met and that they can use their desires to improve the world effectively by working with other people rather than simply trying to recreate a new world order.
People that are physically handicapped are often easier to deal with, because they largely just need to understand that they can interact with the rest of society in meaningful ways. For the worst cases, this might mean that they need to use the internet and computers more for their productivity.
While not my specialty, the mentally handicapped people I've met have all fallen into two categories. The first, you probably wouldn't even know was handicapped unless you were told. Those people can get along just fine for most tasks, though they have more trouble with some than the average person would. The second group is substantially handicapped and in this case they seem to be the type that wouldn't even notice that they don't really integrate into society very well. So, while they need someone to help them with many types of tasks, they're generally happy and don't make too many problems.
The vast majority of problems come about because these individuals feel that they are not respected by their communities and that their contributions are not welcomed by the other members. Showing them that they can help other people and that there are many people out there that will treat them as human beings instead of animals goes a long ways towards reintegrating most of those types of people. Some of the best results at reforming hardened criminals has come from simply having them plant flowers in public gardens and letting them talk with the people that come by. Some individuals will have specific issues to deal with, but most of those are relatively easy to deal with once someone has built up enough trust with that individual.
Truthfully, I don't think I've every met anyone who was too bent to set straight, though it would be infeasible for modern society to do so for many.
The icon is and was for the sheer idealism of the posts.
tl;dr: If people feel safe, productive and respected in their community, then they're unlikely to cause social problems in that community.
But then you have people who would respond to "Hello, sir" with a finger and a bad word. People who, no matter what you do, just plain hate you (practically out of instinct). People who don't just feel they can't contribute to society but rather feel society is flat-out wrong (and wronging them). People who are willing to kill others and/or themselves to make a point. People who DON'T WANT to contribute to society (and indeed, feel ready, willing, and even EAGER to tear it all down). Somewhere along the line, someone comes along that no amount of persuasion will "correct" as long as he/she is alive. What do you do with him/her?
Or in this case London. Lets just build a sodding great wall right round the bloody place and herd in all the bankers (not hard, already there), politicians (ditto), royalty (same), and all the rioting chavs and let them fight it out. Winners get to eat the losers! We can sell the TV rights to the Septics and pay off the national debt in the process...
Bloody hell. Stripping any benefits would just escalate the problem and create more disturbance. Why would want to create more poverty and anger?
The petition should say...
- force all convicted to do community service to clear any remaining mess to local businesses and homes in particular. Make all convicts wear bright pink suits and invite the public to watch.
- anyone under 16, the same should apply. The parents however need to be punished for their lack of responsibility. Not financial though.
- send the young batch of men and women to go help the army in Iraq and afganistan. Teach them some discipline and responsibility.
Force your officials to allow the public to arm themselves against the thugs.
That will end the rioting overnight.
Prosecute the real perpetrators
The global banking elite, and their enablers, they caused this, your police have been told to stand down!
this was all predicted and right on schedule, I hope you Brits can stop it before it gets to the next step..
"while the Metropolitan Police will certainly need guidelines on protecting law-abiding citizens' lunchboxes from packs of penniless and starving hoodies. ®"
It seems to me like you Brits are scared to stop paying extortion money (be honest, that's really what these social programs are).
The loss of benefits may be good but I won't argue either way. I do think that it would be much better to have workfare instead of welfare. Put all those who are receiving unearned (from the government) income to work. Let them earn the income that they get from the government. There must be many projects that needs to be done.
This is true in most of the 'enlightened' west where welfare is passed out like candy to kids. This would give those who receive this workfare a since of pride of earning it themselves. It would also show them it is better get a job that they like than work for the little that they should be getting from the government. This also would take those who are working out of idle time reducing the time they have to do mischif .
"[politicians claiming excessive expenses, alleged police corruption and bankers getting rich] set the example," said one youth after riots in the London district of Hackney. "It's time to loot."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/10/us-britain-riots-austerity-idUSTRE77953X20110810
Really, is anyone surprised? Not me.
Me, I'm amazed that this hasn't happened in the USA yet.
it seems great at the start until you think about it for 0.5 of a second. While it is also justified, why should someone who not only doesn't contribute but has intentionally harmed society be given money by that society. You're left with the unfortunate truth that they don't just vanish because they aren't getting welfare.
On the other hand stockades could be great, I have some moldy stew that would be great to throw at a few looters.
Between the rioters/looters, the muppets who post ill thought out e-petitions, stupid Facebook posts and pretty much the whole Daily fail/ Daily Express Journalistic and Editorial Team, I'm actually wondering how many people in this country have actual, functioning brains that are genuinely capable of reason.
send them all the Australia to the Outback. Put them in a very large electric fenced enclosure and make them eat rice and beans all the time. Each day one of them gets picked to do nasty challenges such as eating bugs and finding stars at the bottom of barrels of rats and stuff. If they do well, they get food for the rest. They could show this on TV with a couple of chaps ,maybe from the North East of England as presenters. Each week, the viewing public could vote to release the most repentant.
We could call this TV program "I'm a Thug, Get Me Out of Here!". I'd watch it.
It does always make me smile that at times like this even the most left wing take a sudden leap to the right on law and order.
I'm guilty myself, and have been recently thinking that we could use these fools as the infantry equivalent of chaff. Sent to war zones to run around in front of the regulars, drawing the first and keeping the real soldiers safe.
Alternatively we could all take a deep breath and work out a realistic way to introduce certain parts of society to personal responsibility - without making the problem worse.
Not sure what the answer is but as much as I like the idea of removing benefits I'm not sure the result would be what we want.
A lot of people seem to have the attitude that these riots should be held with the same regard as rowdy protests - they shouldn't, it's just blatant violent criminal opportunism and completely apolitical. It wouldn't be in any way draconian or fascist or an infringement of civil liberties to meet these riots with force, in fact it's the obligation of the government and police considering the massive amounts of criminal damage being done and now even going as far as outright murder. I would be in complete support of the police/army using lethal force after a warning was given and if it wasn't heeded.
I am very grateful for our right to protest and sometimes genuine political protests do turn violent when there are clashes with the authorities. There are many such examples in recent history, the miner's strike, poll tax riots and anti-globalisation protests to name a few.
This is different, you don't protest to cause political or social change by burning down a small business person's shop or stealing flat-screen TVs and XBoxes. That is simply brutal violence and greed. However before we resort to the police and army shooting people on the streets perhaps we could try some of the non-lethal methods that have not yet been used; baton rounds, tear gas, water cannon (with dye in the water for later identification).
My uncle served in the army in Northern Ireland and told me of the day he stopped a rioter. The guy was apparently well over a six feet, built big, had some nasty weapon and was a threat to some nearby people. My uncle shot him in the arse with a rubber bullet and says the guy spent the next two hours sitting on the ground crying. I think rioting thugs will be a lot less destructive or smug if they are on the receiving end of some serious non-lethal anti-riot weapons.
The police could get a lot more forceful than they have been so far and be far better equipped to defend property and people (including themselves). However live rounds seems to be a lot more than is needed, a dangerous precedent to set on our streets and will create the risk of innocent people ending up as collateral damage.
TV is getting increasingly boring and we have a rather large population of dickheads breaking stuff and stealing imodium.
Anyone else see the same solution as me? Get an island, fill it with cameras and a good satellite hookup, add a liberal sprinkling of weapons and random ammo then ditch convicted scum on the island in some kinda cross between Running Man, Battle Royal and Gamer. Fabulous prizes and your freedom to be won... just survive 30 days.
Only to be dumped onto another island in the same scenario... Yes, there's a little bit of Greek God torture in there too ;)
I can't submit my name to the petition because the server fails to respond. Been trying for 15 mins repeatedly. Why can't the Government put together a website that can support heavy usage?
A site like that should be able to sustain 100,000 signatures an hour, nevermind per day.
Government can't do IT.
It is clear that politicians don't care about or want to hear our opinions. They are leeches sucking money and life out of society. If they got £5 each for every signatory to an e- petition they would immediately invest in adequate equipment and rake the money in. They would still completely ignore the electorate though, their trotters are far too deep in the trough. Anybody know a marksman from Norway? I'll get my hoodie.
If they are on benefits, taking them away just gives them more of a reason to resort to criminality to obtain money - FAIL
Why is it an automatic SUN / DAILY MAIL readership assumption that these people rioting are the same demons they ALWAYS trot out for ANYTHING that happens, ie "jobless louts"? Let's see how many of them fit the demographic that's been assumed by IDIOTS signing a hand shandy petition.
Plenty of criminals have jobs and would otherwise seem respectable.
Whooo! RIOTS! Let's blame people based on arbitrary manipulated prejudices. Blame Boris, blame Cameron and the rest of the people that fiddled while London burnt.
Not like anyone in the country needs a new sewer, another bridge, better internet connection, parking lot, power plant, etc. etc. etc.
3 years ago, there were far more jobs. What changed? The people/groups that still have stuff they want to do have no money and all the people/groups that have money don't have anything they need to spend it on. There's lots of room for more jobs, but the people/groups that would create those jobs don't have any money to hire people with.
When did 'they' become 'them' and not 'us'?
Maybe they became 'them' first, then 'they' got pissed off about it.
I'd like to see the commentards line up a random dozen British 18-20 year-old males and spot 'them' from the line-up.
Then shoot them with your live ammunition, knowing as you do that you can infallibly spot a bad'un when you see one, and their lives are so irretrievably blighted that it would benefit everyone if they died now before their lives even got going.
I was a total dickhead at 18, as were we all. I took part in the riots in the 80's cos it seemed like a laugh and a way to get back at the authority figures pissing me off. Mostly my involvement consisted of shouting 'wanker' at policemen and trying to stay out of the way of the serious nutters, but given most of the comments here, I should have been shot. I calmed down, got on with my life, and now run my own business.
Please think before engaging your arse at the keyboard. And stop being scared of your own children.
"I was a total dickhead at 18"
Thanks for the honesty - but you unfairly paint the vast majority of normal ~18 year olds in a bad light.
The recent riots involved hundreds of other 'dickheads' in clearly 'criminal' behaviour - don't try and make out this is normal / acceptable for people that age. Remember the hundreds of thousands / millions of ~18 year olds who were NOT dickheads.
Now that you run your own business - how would you feel if they came and torched it. Just kids being kids eh?
Q: Why in this country do our criminals feel that they can do what ever they want?
A: The law and it's punishments are toothless due to years of power striping softy decisions. Chain gangs for repairing pot holes, road building and picking up litter as well as prison should be employed for anyone committing any sort of violent disorder minimum 5 years. Make the punishments fit the crime and people won't commit the crime. For murder or attempted murder where there is admission of guilt or hard evidence to prove the individual has committed the offence then life in prison (and I mean until death) or hanging should be considered.
It's all about getting people to think of the consequences of their actions, either before or after the fact. If you commit a crime you should surrender your human rights and future to the state.
.. it will make them more angry than they are now.
On the other hand if the police has sub lethal weapons available i.e. Taser maybe the whole thing would not have kicked off in the first place. Another thing: maybe it should be an offence to hide your face in public, after all, if we could see who the perps are maybe they would behave.
The tabloids say yes!!! Take away benefits from who. In view of the fact many of these rioters were under 16 do you take away their parents benefits assuming they claim them? Whats the point?
If 16 and over seems like a good incentive to become a full time crimbo.
Why do these people who have never worked or even tried to get a job get cash in their hands?
Surely the responsibility of the state is to house them, feed them and get them back into employment or education?
So why do we not give them food vouchers and clothing vouchers? Plus let them have pens and paper to make job applications and have plenty of access to remedial education. A life on benefits should not be a comfortable one. There shouldn't me money spare for cars, satellite TV and contract phones.
Work should also pay, but hopefully they're already working on that one.
The practice of putting teenage mothers to the top of the housing list should stop. they should be forced to live with relatives or go into dorm type shared accommodation. That'll soon have the pregnancy rate dropping.
If you've worked for 20yr paying NI & Tax then the state should step in to give you money and help with mortgages etc to get you back on your feet. At the moment you're better off if you have never contributed and almost punished for trying to do well.
People in the course of committing a criminal act should legally be regarded as having voluntarily forfeited their human and legal rights. Therefore it would be legal for people defending their property to do whatever it takes without fear of reprisal.
We had a riot here recently following the game seven loss in the hockey finals. Cars burned, shop windows smashed, stores looted. Yoofs? One prominent car-burner was an athletic scholarship winning student. Some came prepared with accelerants, others were drunk and caught up in the moment, but not many were hard-done-by yoof.
We have a problem here and it's not confined to Britain and it's not a poverty issue.
I have never read such arrogant, selfish and retarded opinions all in one place before. You all make it very obvious that the poor and uneducated are worthless in your eyes.
You should realise that you (the wealthy) are the minority and though the system (government) protects you in its current form it is not worth a shit if the majority of the people choose to ignore it.
Your draconian views damn you all. Learn from the french revolution, you bourgeois fucks.
And BTW I am quite well off actually, have never claimed benefits and own my home. I just value people based on their merits not their bank balance.
"I just value people based on their merits not their bank balance"
Their merits? Their merits seem to be to loot and destroy whenever the opportunity arises, this is clearly proven. It has fuck all to do with the amount of cash in their pockets. I'm sure every single one of the looters has a roof over their head, clothes on their back, and food in their belly. Yet they still went out and caused terror and destruction because they could.
Remove your cranium from your posterior and come down from the ivory tower - the looters of the last few days are scum pure and simple. The reasons for them being scum can be debated at length, and will be, but as of now they are scum.
Those who believe benefits should remain or there will be more crime are making the same mistakes the Romans did, and which led to the fall of their empire: Throwing money at the barbarians to make them go away, only to have them come back for more because it obviously works for them - until the coffers were empty and they decided to stay. We are at the coffers empty stage now.
The answer is exceptionally low benefits (a soup kitchen to eat, a tiny flat to live, clothes from Oxfam), combined with effective, zero-tolerance policing. Leaving only one route open for people to improve their lot: Getting a job and contributing to society.
An emphasis on personal effort as the way to achieve this is crucial, and an end to the bollocks excuses that bleeding-heart wankers give people at the bottom to blame for their lack of success. It's not the bankers, the politicians, the rich or anyone else keeping them down - it's themselves.
Now I've set the world to rights I'm off for a wank!
"Their merits? Their merits seem to be to loot and destroy whenever the opportunity arises, this is clearly proven. It has fuck all to do with the amount of cash in their pockets. I'm sure every single one of the looters has a roof over their head, clothes on their back, and food in their belly. Yet they still went out and caused terror and destruction because they could.
Remove your cranium from your posterior and come down from the ivory tower - the looters of the last few days are scum pure and simple. The reasons for them being scum can be debated at length, and will be, but as of now they are scum.
Those who believe benefits should remain or there will be more crime are making the same mistakes the Romans did, and which led to the fall of their empire: Throwing money at the barbarians to make them go away, only to have them come back for more because it obviously works for them - until the coffers were empty and they decided to stay. We are at the coffers empty stage now.
The answer is exceptionally low benefits (a soup kitchen to eat, a tiny flat to live, clothes from Oxfam), combined with effective, zero-tolerance policing. Leaving only one route open for people to improve their lot: Getting a job and contributing to society.
An emphasis on personal effort as the way to achieve this is crucial, and an end to the bollocks excuses that bleeding-heart wankers give people at the bottom to blame for their lack of success. It's not the bankers, the politicians, the rich or anyone else keeping them down - it's themselves.
Now I've set the world to rights I'm off for a wank!"
Wow, common sense..
I could not agree more (apart from the wank bit…)
This country is a mess, not just politically and socially but actually a mess.
Stopping benefits would, sadly, just lead to more crime as people looked for ways to survive.
Simple sentencing for all offenders, community service. To clean the litter from our streets and hedgerows, sentence to be served until job complete.
We don't need the death penalty or similar here, just use the laws properly.
The rioters and looters must be identified, arrested and convicted. They need to serve jail time for the crimes, which include vandalism, arson, attacks on the police and murder where relevant. Then they need to pay restitution to the victims and for the damages.
I have no problem sentencing some kid to pay their share of the damages, even if the bill for each runs into the millions. They did the damage and now it's time to pay. Until they've paid in full they obviously should not get any social benefits (the amount or value goes towards the debt). So it's "get a job or starve" for them.
Leaving the spelling mistake aside I think there are some serious problems with simply cutting their benefits.
I can understand why people are saying it. The idea of my taxes going to support lazy gits who will happily steal, and destroy innocent people's homes and businesses does not make me happy. However the reality is that even if these people wanted a job who in their right mind would want to employ them. Without benefits they have nothing at all. Now I know the idea of that gives a lot of people the satisfied warm inner glow of some well-deserved justice being done (me included) but there is an obvious drawback. Hundred or possibly thousands of people who have recent experience of breaking into shops and stealing whatever they want suddenly having no income but crime is a bad idea.
Those convicted should keep their benefits but be forced to work for them. picking up litter, cleaning graffiti and doing every crap job that local councils don't have time or manpower for (no jobs lost). Let them help undo the damage they have done. If they were also radio tagged with ankle bracelets they would be unable to subsidise their benefits with more crime. They could be monitored with home curfew and daily reporting to the local police station.
Getting their hands dirty doing some hard graft might have some other benefits.
Acquiring a little of self-esteem by doing some actual good.
Learning some basic work ethicsby having to earn the money (both of these are long shots I know)
Earning the forgiveness of the communities they have harmed
Maybe doing something that could lead to a real job (tricky given the type of work they would be doing but you never know)
Just an idea but it seems better than cutting all money from people happy to commit crime, putting in prison which is probably more expensive than benefits or giving them a consequence free slap on the wrist if we don't have room in the prisons.
An all expenses paid 2 week vacation into one of the world's many trouble spots, where life is undoubtedly harsher than living on benefits in a London council estate. If they survive, then they might think themselves lucky and come back even slightly reformed, otherwise.. well no need to pay for the return flight.
several years ago the intelligent among us were astonished that the gov decided to remove discipline from schools and from the home - a system that had worked well for hundreds of years. Anyone with a brain could see this could only lead to trouble in the future. By removing discipline and consequence, you remove bounderies and discourage respect. It was a deliberate maneuver to create such unrest in the future that the people would demand action which could then be offered in trade for some rights or higher taxes. just to ensure the success of this plan the gov also cut back on policing.
Well now the future is here. Why is anyone surprised. How many slack useless parents are whining now because of there own lack of scruples. This is precisely what the gov planned, and now muppets up and down the country are falling right into the trap.
We have a society where those in control can steal thousands in tax evasion, expenses, and general fiddling, and get away with it. Tax payers money bail out the richest institutes run by people with a 6 figure payroll. Useless pointless celebs promote a vacuous 'want it now' lifestyle.
Why on earth would anyone expect these stupid kids to behave any differently to the way they do?
So yes, lets take away the benefit from these morons. I'm sure they'll just sit quietly at home and take the punishment without a fuss. I'm sure they won't react in any predictable way like, ooo, maybe more rioting - when you have nothing, no money, no rights, no education, no morals, no respect, and can't even spell consequences, you have nothing to loose.
If you vote Labour of Conservative, if you stopped disciplining your children, and condone (by in-action) the removal of discipline in schools - then this is your fault - stop whining, grow a set, assume responsibility, and deal with your shit !!
Hi Sarah
Good comment, tell it how it is. It is a joy to hear somebody who is not afraid of the pc lunacy that is destroying our society. Politicians are redundant and unnecessary in the age of the internet. MP's were conceived to represent the electorate when many had a 5 day horse ride to London. With the internet I do not see what use they are. They are completely corrupt and self-serving and have sold this country out. We can have real time referendums on any issue and I am sure that the MP's are well aware of this and scared. After all most of them are career politicians and without exception say one thing and do the opposite. I am ashamed of myself for imagining Cameron (Scam and Run) would be different and was really looking forward to his promised referendum on the lisbon treaty. I realise now that he is no better than Blair and Brown in that he has conned the electorate and his personal agenda is above and beyond that of the country.
Our benefit system is quite frankly a complete cock-up. We have got immigrants flooding in and living in multi-million pound mansions and being paid to breed. We have got unemployable vermin breeding like rats at an alarming rate. We have got a police force who have completely lost the plot and disassociated themselves from the people that they should serve. They stand and watch hoodies looting and then threaten to arrest "vigilantes" if they do anything to stop the criminality. We have no aircraft carriers and an army with no boots unless they buy them themselves. We are fighting wars that non of us condone and purely prop up the oil companies and the dollar. We have ponzi bankers being paid to continue their fraud. We have the BBC paying themselves royally and making up news and rewriting history (check out the life of muhammed by raghead omar) to suit their Bolshevik ideals, and we are forced by law to pay for these idiots to try to brainwash us. We are in the EU despite enormous public disapproval.
I could go on but I think you know where I am coming from. What this society has become is the opposite of eugenics. We are breeding morons. This looting is the first major sign of the moronic uprising and how the future will be.
So what is the solution? You have made a lot of points but not given any ideas about how we can improve things. Lets get this discussion going:
I believe that nobody should be allowed to walk the streets wearing attire than prevents them from being identified, regardless of race, age or religion. Anybody who attempts to hide their identity should be arrested, charged and fined, and imprisoned if they repeat the offence.
All police officers should carry cameras and record everything they do.
Get rid of the politicians. We can all vote online in real time.
Stop benefit payments. Give them vouchers for basic living expenses. If they insist on breeding stop the vouchers.
Let the Ponzi schemes (banks) fail. They are totally self serving. Prosecute and imprison the bankers and most stock-brokers (high class gamblers). Set up national banks that serve the country, businesses and the community. Stop the stock market from being a casino by making buyers of shares have to keep them for at least a month. (That will also stop the computers screwing everything even more than the gamblers).
Fund the army and look after them, ensure that if they have to defend our beloved country they have adequate equipment and gear to do their jobs.
Get rid of the TV license fee, the BBC can run as a business, not a nepotistic gravy train planting their bolshevik ideals in peoples minds. They would have to pay many millions to buy the organisation from the taxpayer. It would be only fair to open it to offers from sky etc, that is the real world way of doing business.
Get out of the EU and re-assess our relationship with the US.
Just a few suggestions and I hope that this sparks some debate.
I will fetch my hoodie
This post has been deleted by its author
It seems to me that at least most people here are agreed that these people aren't really people, just mere scum to be flicked off of your boots.
Some great ideas:
Cancel benifits to those that choose to have children. So in other words kill the scums babies by starvation, a particularly cruel method.
Shoot them all (if only there was a way to distinguish them with 100% accuracy)
Make them get a job to repay the damage.... get a job or starve (but wouldn't repaying the damage mean that if they got a job they STILL wouldn't have money?)
Send them all to death camps! (worked out so well for Hitler and the Nazis)
I am starting to think it might just be easier to kill all the rich people to stop them complaining, there are after all a lot fewer of them and they tend to be so soft and fat and squidgy. Could maybe even temporarily put off the energy crisis. Fat Boy Biodiesel anyone?
What i don't get is why parents aren't using slapping etc anymore, granted the government have made it illegal but ffs they can't stop everyone doing it, look at the riots....if parents actually stood up and said "no f*** you, it's my child and i'll discipline it how i want, if it's good enough for other species it's good enough for us"
If they've caused criminal damage, committed theft or caused a disturbance of the peace then there are already laws for these things. Maybe it'll take more effort to track them down and prosecute them but removing benefits for anyone who was in the vicinity without a court risks justice going awry, we can't let standards of justice slip without landing on a slippery slope. If you start punishing people for being in the vicinity of a riot without proper trial to determine that they actually did something wrong then you're getting dangerously close to punishing people for protests where a few individuals turn it into a riot even while many of the individuals were peaceful. From there it's punishment for peaceful protest. Baby steps certainly, and easily dismissed as paranoia, we do have to be aware of the possibility however.
If you're concerned about moral laxity in the youth then set an example, insist that the country and government has only the highest standards of morality.
I'll also note that up here in the North there seem to be as many people in the age area of 40+ screwing over the benefits system as under 25. I'm late twenties so it isn't simply that I'm isolated from the younger members of society.
Before locking up the poor who stole, how about locking up MP's who stole expenses they weren't entitled to... And lets do this in proportion... what did that girl get for a 2 quid bottle of water? Now, how much should an MP/Lord get for 10, 20, 30,000 of expenses? Not until we actually have justice in this country will there be any respect for the law. I wonder if the looters say 'oooooh sorry, we didn't realise we couldn't just take what we wanted - after all the window was open - here you go, do have it back now we've been found out' ... will those people get off scot free?
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