Prime Minister recalls holidaying MPs after London riots Prime Minister David Cameron has recalled Parliament after three nights of rioting, looting and arson on London's streets. The Palace of Westminster is currently in recess until 5 September, but MPs have been told to return to the House of Commons for one day on Thursday. Meanwhile, retailers across the capital are still …
... but not in the way you're thinking.
Instead of paying these yobs welfare handouts, re-introduce conscription, and pay them the equivalent as a wage whilst focussing their aggression, teaching them respect, and bringing our armed forces back up to strength.
Then after a bit of enforced growing-up, which our schools seem incapable of providing, they can be re-introduced as positive members of our society.
"Then after a bit of enforced growing-up, which our schools seem incapable of providing, they can be re-introduced as positive members of our society."
But with weapons and tactical training too, and the benefit of being made really fit into the bargain.
Why not just have them all chained together and pick up litter, clean drains, scrub graffitti, clear the canals, return the plasma TV (and pay for the broken windows)...
etc. Under supervision of the army possibly, but making them the army's problem I don't think is a good idea.
It's a nice beguiling fantasy: seargent with twirling moustache against a lot of 'orrible 'olligans, and the NCO turns these truants into men.
But the problem is that the British Armed forces currently (a) have minimum standards for conscripts in education and fitness, which would have to be relaxed to admit the rioters, and (b) is all volunteer. It's not WWII, where there's a common enemy to fight, and where you need every warm bodied male. There will be some who will try it out, because they've got nothing else to do - and there will be others who want to be back with their mates on the street, and just don't have the self-discipline or the smarts for the job.
And when there's the possibility of serving in Afghanistan... my god. I don't know if it would end up that way, but I'm thinking of how the US armed forces - which at the time had a lot of conscripts - decayed in Vietnam.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2877/did-soldiers-really-frag-officers-in-vietnam
"In short, for all the tales of soldiers assaulting gung-ho officers they feared would get them killed, a more likely explanation is that fragging was the work of rear-echelon misfits with anger management and substance issues who sulked after getting chewed out and decided to have their revenge. The nature of the war as such likely contributed only indirectly — its unpopularity discouraged enlistment and compelled the military to accept more trouble-prone recruits. The prevalence of drugs couldn’t have helped either — one study of soldiers returning from Vietnam found one-fifth had been addicted to narcotics."
And who would be the most likely to frag officers in the new conscript-ready British Army? Yes, there at the back? Exactly. The people who had been rioting before being conscripted! And Afghanistan is not known for being short of drugs.
So let's leave our poor seargant alone. He's tough but fair. He doesn't deserve tripping over a line in the barracks and detonating an IED because some smacked-out miscreant wants to be back in Brixton.
Instead, let's try other ideas, like.... cutting austerity measures, tax the rich, and they try to use to get more jobs in the UK. Our would-be miscreant would probably be happier gainfully employed, and having to go to bed early for work next day is a deterrent to rioting. Let's give him a chance, shall we?
Having said that, if National Service is the go, then the conscripts will probably have to work on their physical fitness. Playstations (a favorite target for theft) don't exactly help you at hand-to-hand fighting. So Cameron and Clegg as personal punching bags for the recruits? Suits me, sir.
These are the young people who simply haven't been provided with the educational and employment opportunities that they deserve. The generation of children and young people who have been let down by this and previous governments.
Comments above about National service, and worse are simply barbaric, you should be ashamed for these suggestions. You forget that these disaffected youth are also citizens of the UK.
> These are the young people who simply haven't been provided with the
> educational and employment opportunities that they deserve.
They have been provided with every educational opportunity. To a large extent, they have *chosen* to eschew such opportunities. The State is at fault only inasmuch as it permits an environment where children can make decisions with such onerous consequences at such a young age - but given the reaction I have seen[1] from some parents when a school attempts to discipline a child, it is hardly surprising that we end up with what we've got. That's democracy in action.
Vic.
[1] My missus is a teacher. Irate parents seem to be part of the job, particularly when you point out that children shouldn't be truanting if they expect any future employment opportunities...
..to listen to bullshit comments from the politicians claiming the rioters are only doing it because they are poor and oppressed.
Its not really their fault, its the fault of the state or the police or their parents or the education system or their upbringing or whatever.
Assign fault later. For the moment, stop those poor unprivileged bastards from destroying what value there is left in their towns.
I have no sympathy "why" you did something like this until someone has stopped you doing it first. And to be honest, I have little sympathy even then because you're the only person responsible for your own actions and you still did it.
You know what, my (great-)grandparents generation had nothing, were given nothing, fought a war for little gratitude and still didn't go rioting through the streets about it. What's the matter? Not getting enough playstations with your benefits money? Aw, shame, so you're *OBVIOUSLY* justified in rioting then and destroying others hard work that they DID earn...
> my (great-)grandparents generation had nothing, were given nothing, fought a war for little gratitude and still didn't go rioting through the streets about it.
What, apart from the Tonypandy Riots, the Battle of Bow Street, the Battle of Cable Street and Notting Hill Race Riots to name a few? I'll stop in the 50's given your (great-)grandparents modifier, but there certainly were riots in the early 20th century. None in the 40s... we must have been busy with something else...
...they have seen the people who trashed the economy going unpunished and keeping every penny they DIDN'T earn (as we know with the benefit of hindsight.)
It's unlikely the people rioting have put the pieces together and figured that out, but we are seeing a generation with practically zero prospects for the future. So, to that extent, it IS like the 1980s.
Still, on a practical level, the rioters do need to be shot in the interests of public safety.
Please keep the pointless opinions on banks out of this. They were lending money to the very people defining the expectation culture who didn't want to work and save but instead have it "now now now damn it". I would argue that the citizens of the country got the banks they deserved - don't complain about bailing them out when you as a collective benefited from excessive borrowing that brought about their downfall. I didn't hear anybody complaining about lax regulation when collecting their increased 100% mortgages to spunk on a holiday and a new car.
That aside, I agree with your final point, these rioters are scum and have no place in our society.
You know all these rioters financial histories, how much they borrowed and how much they paid back? Thought not.
Did these people buy property in a house-of-cards US mortgage system? Did they queue up to join Maydorf style ponzi schemes on the promise of obviously unrealistic returns while poach-turned-poacher financial regulators looked the other way? Did they shift millions of people's pensions in and out of get-rich-quick dot com no-hopers? Did they seek to destabilise national currencies in order to speculate. Did they award themselves massive bonuses on the supposed long term profits of money lending that was bound to fail in the short term?
No, I thought not.
As a matter of practical justice can we have a banker (or ten) included in the tumbrel for every rioter.
It's a fine argument which is worse, reckless greed torching a shopping centre just down the road or reckless greed blighting the lives of everyone but the rich for the next 20 years.
Paris for the IT angle.
I have a few ideas on how to resolve the situation, and prevent repetition. I guess things have to get a tad worse before they might be considered. Mind 'peaceful' probably isn't part of the solution to my mind.
These are people that feel they are entitled to things which they haven't worked for, I would suggest some training courses that revise their attitudes.
These are people that feel they are entitled to things which they haven't worked for, I would suggest some training courses that revise their attitudes.
Like MP's and expencise.
or
Tabloid Jurnalists and 'exclucives'
or
Bankers and Bonuses
or
Local council Executives and golden goodbys
or ....
But you get the picture.
... That certain powers in some legislation that should deal with widespread unrest like this requires parliament to be consulted. This means HoC and HoL, and it does mean that a debate needs to take place to keep rule of law within bounds.
If that wasn't the case, we'd be no better than the banana republics we've been bollocking publicly for their appalling behaviour in the last year.
Scotland Yard has begun publishing a gallery of rogues captured on CCTV overnight. It's so far posted 15 images on Flickr
The usual rubbish CCTV pix (another procurement farce?) and the clearest image is that of Colonel Sanders, maniacly grinning in his usual style. He needs to be arrested. Pronto!
I especially like the fact that most of them seem to be pictures taken with a camera pointed at a screen with the CCTV video paused on it (although they must have spent a while lining up, some aren't bad considering the frankly pathetic method used to get a screen shot).
I never understood why even the best quality CCTV cameras are worse quality than the absolute worst cheapest cameras you can buy anywhere else - are there really manufacturers who specialise in making crap quality cameras that nobody in their right mind would buy to sell as "high quality CCTV"?
It's not the CCTV cameras that are poor quality, it's the recording medium - many cameras are very high quality, just recorded onto the same weekly recycled tape for decades.
Also - photographing a screen has been a technology that's been used for ages - from oscilloscope poloroids to photographing high res monitors for film special effects.
i don't get why any one is surprised. some years ago the government abolished discipline, the teaching of respect, and removed bounderies. The consequences were predictable, but no-one stood up to challenge the morons in power. i suspected that the gov weren't short-sighted, but in fact this was a calculated maneuver. The current gov (which no-one voted for) have announced their plan to cut over 2000 cops from London streets (yes, that's justified), and thanks to gov overspending many councils have been forced to shut down 'yoof clubs' etc
So now we have herds of unruly morons running round in 'gangs' with no scruples or respect, with no bounderies and no concept of discipline or consequence, setting fire to hairdressers and coffee shops etc.
Lets see what the gov offer to do, and what we stand to loose so we can have a safe society
> Everybody who voted, voted for this government, it's called democracy.
You seem to be confusing the specific and the general cases.
People who vote are supporting the principle of democratic government, but not necessarily the one that wins the election.
Just like if there was a referendum to bring back capital punishment, if I voted against it, that doesn't mean I want CP just because I voted.
I didn’t vote for this government…I voted for Optimus Prime, had to write the name and draw the box before I ticked it but I stand by my decision considering the alternatives.
As a truck Optimus Prime will certainly be for motorists, living in a rural region that’s a big plus for me.
"The current gov (which no-one voted for) "
*blink* You what? I think you'll find that the Tory and Lib Dem voters did. It's not their fault that all three parties are basically the same. If you mean that no-one voted for the PM, then that's true; that's how our system works.
"thanks to gov overspending many councils have been forced to shut down 'yoof clubs' etc"
Well perhaps they should claim the taxes owed by their multi-national buddies? Whoops! HMRC is letting them off their debts and no MP wants to lose their lucrative directorships.
Here's what I want them to do:
1) Deploy the army, restore order even if it means marshal law for a time.
2) Lead by example: *JAIL* those who made fraudulent claims, expel them from the parties, forbid them from ever holding any public office ever again.
3) Sack Hartnett and begin an investigation into his actions.
4) Claw-back the billions owed by the multi-nationals.
5) Lead by example. So important I am saying it twice.
"1) Deploy the army, restore order even if it means marshal law for a time."
Are you all joking, should they use M16 or M60s*? Perhaps we could airstrike London?
I am betting that some form of humbling of the Police for shooting another person under dubious circumstances is more likely to help. The police handling of the initial incident seems a bit dodgy as it transpires that the injured police officer may have been hit with a police bullet rather than the young man in the taxi. So who fired first.
I have to say that : I do not condone the thievery and vandalism taking place with these riots, but feel there is a just reason for the angst. A protest would be a more appropriate action, that is until the police start kettling everyone.
* American weapons, I know.
MPs fraudulently claim expense - no action taken.
Bankers take massive risks, ruin the economy, commit frauds - no action taken, bonuses all round.
Police abuse authority - retire early with honours & pension, no action taken.
Civil servants screw up major public contracts - promoted to new positions, no action taken.
Multi-nationals evade taxes - get preferential treatment from HMRC, no action taken.
Whilst some may bemoan the "loss of discipline", which is certainly a factor, the greater problem is that people are led by example. MPs of all parties have been showing that it is A-OK to break the law (or allow others to break it) for personal gain; so why is anyone surprised when something like this happens?
MPs fraudulently claim expense - no action taken.
- Actually a few went to court for fraud. Far too few though...
Bankers take massive risks, ruin the economy, commit frauds - no action taken, bonuses all round.
- Actually, the economy and deficit were already well established before the banking crisis. Last straw on the horses back though.
Police abuse authority - retire early with honours & pension, no action taken.
- Didn't they retire before chanrges were pressed? In which case, not much can be done, bar changing the law to allow post-depature charges.
Civil servants screw up major public contracts - promoted to new positions, no action taken.
- You're bloody right there. Overpaid bloody muppets.
Multi-nationals evade taxes - get preferential treatment from HMRC, no action taken.
- If it's legal, it's a 'fair' (well...sort of) cop. I doubt HMRC would have turned down the chance to cash in.
When the public sector is carving up the tax pot and then when it run out started borrowing more to nick then you can't blame a few people for thinking it seemed like a good idea.
If your allowed to screw the public over if you work for the Goverment why moan when private citizens do it?
"Unconfirmed reports on Twitter suggest that the Currys store in New Cross, south-east London, was ransacked by looters last night."
Ha! The joke is on the looters! They are gonna be PISSED when they try to flog that gear online and realise it isn't worth quite as much as Currys said it was.
I think you will find that more people voted for the tories than any other party and they and the liberals had more seats that you scumbag Labour.
We are in this situation due to 13 years of labour party mismangement of the economy, and decades of liberal chattering class policy that states its OK to bring up wild feral scum becuase thats a lifestye choice!
Well as someone who lives in South London and has seen the results of these polices I wish that for once these scum would head off to islington show you and your friends the results.
They are human pond scum and the sooner they get some 80's styles policing with the end of s tuncheon the better.
But hey you can be garanteed that as soon as the police give the little poor misunderstood darlings a showing the chattering classes will be along to ensure their human rights are upheld!
...has pretty much fallen hand over fist since the mid nineties, as it has in a great many nations. The reason is not known, but the reduction in lead levels in the environment is an interesting hypothesis.
Few are wiling to believe that crime has fallen, because this fact refuses to tie in with their political viewpoints - either crime is 'out of control' because youth is 'disenfranchised by the free market', or because 'there is no discipline in our schools'.
> has pretty much fallen hand over fist since the mid nineties
*Reported* crime has fallen.
It is commonplace these days, IME, to meet people who have been the victims of crime but have not reported it - because there is a tendency for the Police to do precisely fuck all about anythnig that is reported.
Such an attitude did not seem to be so prevalent 20-odd years ago.
Vic.
"We are in this situation due to 13 years of labour party mismangement "
Labour or Tory, we'd be in the same place. The rot started with the previous Tory government (PFI deals etc) and was accelerated by Labour.
MPs act with impunity and without fear of any consequences. So long as they get their junkets and post-ministerial positions, they do not care. It's time this was changed. It's time MPs sucked it up and realised that *they* are partly responsible for this.
Partly responsible? Were they the refilling the petrol bombs?
There is a particular left wing fallacy that if you do something bad, it's not your fault - you're too stupid/poor/disenfranchised to know any better and were made to do it. The only people responsible for the rioting and looting are the rioters and looters.
There is a way to protest, as demonstrated by Mark Duggan's family. This is not a protest, however much the idiot left want it to be - it is criminal looting.
Stealing TVs and drugs, burning buildings and cars and terrorizing citizens is not a protest, it is thuggery. The left, as led by that moron Ken Livingstone, do not like the current government, nor the austerity conditions that are required after the previous government (which promised an end to boom and bust), and conflate idiots stealing and burning stuff with a political protest.
I can't decide which I dislike more - the twats rioting, or the cunts trying to tie their political flags to it.
I'm more of a right-wing libertarian to be honest, but there you go.
"Partly responsible? Were they the refilling the petrol bombs?"
Of course not, but they have done little to help Britain pull itself out of the current slump, they have been more interested in trousering as much as they can. We have lost funding for schools, after-school clubs etc to massively wasteful PFI projects. Police are being trimmed down, army reduce etc etc. Meanwhile the fat get fatter and the poor poorer. This creates tension in a society and, whilst individual actions cannot be condoned, it does lead to a temporary loss of control.
"I can't decide which I dislike more - the ****s rioting, or the ****s trying to tie their political flags to it."
I dislike those who abuse their power and then deny responsibility for the results of their actions.
This post has been deleted by its author
The banks have no money.
Their money is our money
The banks operate "fractional reserve banking"
Basically, they lend people money they do not have.
If required to give their depositors their money back, all their money, they could only repay £1.50 for every 100 ponds deposited.
The worlds banks have been running a "pyramid" operation for many, many years now....decades and decades.....
the less they have, the more they pay themselves.
I would update your statement to say
"if you do something bad, it IS your fault. It's not your fault if you're too stupid/poor/disenfranchised to know any better"
People are who they are, and they are not to blame for having poor / stupid parents, growing up on the streets and around criminals etc.
Of course you are still correct that people are still responsible for their actions. Being poor / disenfranchised etc is maybe a reason, it is NOT an excuse. The rioters and looters are responsible for their actions and if criminal charges can be brought against them, they should be brought with full force. At the same time, government and civil society should ask itself what could be done better to prevent this sort of thing in the future.
> the sooner they get some 80's styles policing with the end of s tuncheon the better
You might be right.
But you assume that the Police will use those truncheons on the right people; the case of Ian Tomlinson shows that such assumptions simply cannot be made safely.
The rioters are clearly responsible for their own actions here, but in other circumstances, the Police have been at least as much the cause of problems as they are the solution; whilst Police officers are less than absoutely trustworthy[1], it is a very dangerous plan to give them the role of judge, jury and executioner...
Vic.
[1] How are Cleveland Police getting along this week, I wonder?
@Vic
What sane person would consider it fun to be a bystander during those riots ? Sorry but I'd have no love lost there; if you're a bystander you're just as bad as the rioters (looters) themselves because you didn't do anything to stop it. That includes not even turning your back to these despicable acts.
You appear to be as corrupted as the people who you so magnificently call scum. Have you been reading too much Daily Mail?
The sooner morality and sensible economic policies can be put in place, the sooner we can pay for the shipping container for all Daily Mail readers and send them to some island where they can shout scum at the top of their lungs at each other. *roll eyes* It really is clichéd.
scumbag Labour? Really? You mean Tory style New Labour? You've had your boys in power, in one form or another, since 1979 and every day we have fallen behind successful parts of Europe while copying whatever has failed in the US.
If the Tories couldn't win a landslide after 13 years of Gordon Brown as chancellor or Prime Minister, it suggests people are somewhat disillusioned with the same tired old BS.
LPF,
I live in Sweden and we have similar issues due to some 70 years of labour party mismangement of the economy (and the society in general, really.) Things like this are going on in select suburbs (such as Rosengård in Malmö, or Tensta and Rinkeby in Stockholm) on regular basis, with mainstream media and the government preferring to hush everything down and stuff the things under the carpet.
This isn't only British problem, really.
Daniel from Stockholm
Dear Daniel from Stockholm,
I applaud your madness and blatant lack of history. Quote: "70 years of labour party mismangement of the economy (and the society in general, really.)"
After you've read up on Den svenska modellen/The Nordic model
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folkhemmet
and hopefully understood that it is one of the reasons you're able to spout your silliness, I reward you by sending you back to the 1910's were you can jumpstart your own version of Sverige Demokraterna/Sweden Democrats or suitably twisted organisation.
Dear Envoy,
Thank you so much for generously enlightening me. Why, two brief Wikipedia articles will surely change my political views drastically, especially given the fact that I am so ignorant and illiterate that I, despite living in Sweden, had never heard of any Nordic Model or whatnot. Thank you oh thank you!
Now seriously, try calming down and reading http://reason.com/blog/2010/03/08/so-why-is-the-swedish-welfare (and watching the embedded video.) Reading select articles and books by Johan Norberg might be beneficial as well.
Being a Swedish citizen and taxpayer, I am seriously annoyed by the image of Sweden abroad, the image of "a country in which socialism works". Nothing could be farther from truth -- Sweden is merely an exception which proves the rule, a proof of concept that it is actually somehow possible for a socialist system not to ruin a country completely. Margaret Thatcher said that socialism works until you run out of other people's money, and that is precisely what happened to the glorious Swedish welfare model.
I will not respond to your pathetic ad hominem insults -- I understand it is normal for you leftists to regard opposing political views as "madness".
Daniel
1 - the ConDems reap what they sow
2 - it is a natural consequence of ConDem policy and practice
3 - is there an association between riot areas and NEET numbers? (Not in Education, Employment or Training).
The Labour investment in training and youth employment was not an indulgence. NEET tends to be a worldwide phenomena anyway.
the bleedin guardian readers have turned up as if the daily wail lot were'nt bad enough
Some of us old farts have seen this all before... especially in the 1980's
Peaceful protest is one thing, but outright looting and arson is another.
Solution, beyond water cannons filled with orange dye are more complex but after any morons are convicted, the police's famous 'kettling' techniques should be used and kettle the idiots in the buildings that have been burnt out, and there they can live for 3 months repairing it.
While some News channels (CNN, RT, CCTV, NHKworld, ... ) seem to portray and broadcast interviews robustly with widely varying views broadcast as is BBC News 24 seems to take a different track altogether.
Any one see the BBC News 24 live interview with a West Indian grandfather trying and emoting on social conditions active in the minds of potential rioters only to be countered with a comment along lines that he was a rioter himself?
Or the glib law and order effluent flowing from people who really, really should know better?
To paraphrase a Liverpool Uni professor:
you cannot dissociate riots from the social conditions or social injustice perceived in the minds of the rioters.
In it's first major update for 30 years Social unrest games presents -
"Urban Street Riot 2011"
New in this version.......
Full twitter and facebook integration
Wider range of looting available
New Police weapons and tactics including - Tasers, CS Gas, Ketteling and many more
Fully destructible environment
Updated graphics engine for fully lifelike flame and explosion effects
Individual and multi-player rioting options
Live newsfeed updates
New pontificating politician and bleeding heart liberal options
Full Ebay integration to fence your looted goods quicker
Full Google map function - Keep up with the mob or risk getting picked off by the feds
Pick the time of day to riot to suit yourself - You can now mould your rioting between signing on and closing time
Lootable powerups - Need more speed, loot Adidas trainers
Special missions include - Capture the BES, Best dressed Looter, most appearences on Sky TV etc
Just seen these tweets:
#reclaimthestreets If enough law abiding citizens are on the streets it should stop riots, especially if they are from the local community.
#reclaimthestreets part2 Don't leave a vacuum fill the streets with mothers, families etc but protect your family and no Vigilantes!
Sounds like a good idea to me. A pity I'm not in London otherwise I could help put it into action.
"#reclaimthestreets If enough law abiding citizens are on the streets it should stop riots, especially if they are from the local community.
#reclaimthestreets part2 Don't leave a vacuum fill the streets with mothers, families etc but protect your family and no Vigilantes"
Yes, everyone out in the streets, leave your homes empty so we can nip in there once we've cleaned out Currys...
Rioting to highlight an injustice I can understand (still not necessarily agree with, but can at least see what they hope to achieve). This though is, for the large part, nothing more than thuggery and seeing how many plasma TVs can be stuffed in the back of a car and flogged on ebay..
While I think we would all like the thieving skumbags to policed using the method shown in the "Camberwick Green" opening of Life on mars by Gene Hunt (search utube) If I knew I was one of the police who might be unemployed due to Gov. Cuts in police numbers in a few months, I certainly wouldn’t want to risk getting injured for life by fighting these rioters and cant blame them from standing back when out numbered.
Also just wondering if anyone found any bargain “slightly smoke damaged” electrical goods from north London on ebay yet?
it's the tossers they have at the high level command......
It's what you get when you confuse policing and politics, which many senior police officers have done for decades.
The police on the ground wanted to get it sorted, but those "on high" decided that running away or watching was better for the public image.
...By ordering their officers to stand back as London burns and a public outcry builds, those at the top thought they could get police salaries/pensions reinstated, obtain more powers and get their budget increased?
The right says "something must be done, give them more powers and the tools to do the job - increase their budget"
The left says "see, this is all because of tory budget cuts, throw some money at the problem"
Police: "thank you, we hoped you'd say that. See - you need us, don't you?"
Too cynical?
"I'm not advocating violence."
Nor am I though I understand that section 24A of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 allows for "Reasonable" force when "helping" the busy police with a citizens arrest. Though if my coworkers are a typical example of a group of It workers the average hoodie would most likely be able to out jog them (n some cases a fast walk would be all it takes) to get away...
Why is it when they show "socially deprived areas" they've all got Sky TV (or dishes at least)? Perhaps there are too few channels on Sky to keep the unwashed masses entertained? Just how do they afford it? Or can you get benefits for Sky TV viewing? Probably.
Anyway, I expect the riots will end shortly as Ch.5 are about to show Celebratry Big Brother, this should engage their Neaderthal crainial capacity for a while and give their lives deeper meaning.
Sterilization at birth is the only way.
any comment by an Anonymous Coward (the clue's in the name)
Allbeit my moniker is not my real name, you can at least cross-reference any comment I make with ones you may have read in the past to determine if I'm trolling or a fascist right-wing nutjob.
Presumably most AC's above are in their late 50's/60's and therefore have had a charmed fucking life.
No wars to deal with, plenty of savings and several pairs of rose-tinted specs and a nice pension to wrap it all up.
What we have here, my baby boomer chums, is a revolt.
You and your ilk have created a society in which it's seemingly perfectly acceptable to do as John G Imrie points out and you're the ones getting away with just those crimes.
Oh, but it's all to easy to pontificate when discussing the civil disorder brought about in part by your ignorance and apathy towards a generation you don't understand and have no consideration for.
I don't for one minute defend rioting and looting, but to try and simplify this by brushing it under the carpet as a group of theiving ne'er-do-wells makes me sick.
Get off you high horse you pompous old farts and do something good for a change. Who knows, maybe you could help these malcontents rather than directing your bilious invective at them.
this is looting, nicking for the sake of it.
Get your head out of your arse and stop defending the twats.
I'm in my 30's, grew up through the last lot of riots, my parents didn't have anything but I din't go out joining gangs. I got an education. I worked hard to make a better life *FOR MYSELF* I didn't ask who was going to buy the expensive trainers for me. I didn't nick them.
The problem is that we now have a generation of people who expect to be given whatever they like, to have their life paid for by the hard workers.
Don't tell me I'm out of touch, I grew up with a disabled father and a mother who worked hard to provide us with a roof and food.
These twats and the apologists who say it's not their fault deserve nothing but a damn good kick up the arse.
you really are a prick.
yes, the police need a kick up their arses. they continually lie and cover it up. politicians dont help as they seemingly get away with everything. society is crumbling and we are paying more for less. funding useless wars for black gold doesnt help.
but dont be fooled. this is PURELY selfish little scum trying to take what they can. have you watched ANY footage? they seem to think they are entitled to a millionaire's lifestyle without any effort, its just more of this everything for nothing the youth of today seem to think they are entitled to.
people protest because some plastic wannabe gangster carrying a gun got shot. he wants to be a 'gangsta rapper innit' yet knows in the USA the police would shoot you in a heartbeat for waving a gun around. how would his moaning wife feel if she was married to a copper instead, who got shot by a wannabe ganster? she said 'they should have shot the gun from his hand, its all their fault'. maybe if he wasnt playing the hard man he would be alive and none of this rioting would have happened.
our business has already lost money, we are having works cancelled as we primarily work for blue chip companies like debenhams and house of fraser etc. we are a small company struggling in a recession already. this will cost people's jobs and livelihoods as well as people's homes. how many people didnt get insurance this year as its gone up drastically the last few years?!
btw - im 36, have worked all my life and have a pregnant wife to support. im struggling too having seen my salary cut by 30% over the last 5 years and now im supporting 3 people.
not everyone here is in their 50/60s. i take it you are too stupid to know of the troubles in the 70s and 80s too? 16% on mortgages thanks to maggies bunch, my parents almost lost their house and my dad worked harder that you will ever know you smug little shit. he is due to retire this september and due to illness will most likely be dead by this time next year. how would you like to work from 16-65 then die at 66?
im all for revolting the government, self serving bastards who only care about themselves. if this is what they were doing they would be marching on whitehall or the houses of parliament. not stealing from shops.
> What we have here, my baby boomer chums, is a revolt.
Bullshit.
If this were a revolt, the rioters would be trying to make a point. There would be some sort of direction in what they wre trying to achieve.
This is just looting. There's no attempt to change society - just an attempt to grab big tellies from shops. It is crime, not social commentary.
Vic.
As we make our bold political statement by shovelling as many DVD players and flatscreens into the back of my mate's VW Golf. We shall send a message to the Halls of Parliament by mugging beaten up kids, setting fire to cars and burning down family owned businesses. Let our voices cry out in rage, although they'er slightly muffled as we're all wearing hoodies and scarves because we don't want to be recognised on CCTV.
Political disenchantment my arse.
I have to second your comments. It is disgusting the way that commentators are suggesting knee jerk reactions like shooting people (some of these protesters are kids). I would also point out that this is a generation that have been and are deprived of the opportunities that most other people take for granted. It is hardly surprising that, as well as protesting, they take a few of the things that they see other people enjoying.
What have the preceding generations, as you say people in their 50’s and 60’s, actually done? The poverty gap has widened over the last 20 years. These young people are entitled to a massive investment in social, employment and educational opportunities. The rich might have to pay a bit more tax to allow this to happen but to my mind that is only fair.
who draw's the line between rich and poor?
Why are these young people "entitiled to massive investment"? they have educational opportunities already, they just choose not to take them.
Yes there are plenty of people who are unemplyed and who do truley want to work, but far too many just use it as an excuse.
We have all seen protests and the amount of change they bring. Just to make it clear, the government ignores them. We elect our representative not our emperors. If the last election showed anything it was that hardly anybody gives a fuck about elections because it makes no difference. No matter who you vote for the government always gets in.
This is not a protest it is what happens when society loses it's voice. People get angry and the stupidest, angriest people do stupid angry things. Yes the individuals in involved are idiots and should be stopped but to pretend there is no underlying cause is to bury your head in the sand.
> This is not a protest
That's what I said...
> it is what happens when society loses it's voice.
No. These rioters are making no effort to speak. If they wanted to protest their social conditions, they'd be burning symbols of the oppressor state, not furniture warehouses. They'd be smashing up Council offices, not snaffling consumer electronics goodies.
> to pretend there is no underlying cause
No-one's pretending there aren't underlying social ills - but this isn't an exmple of them showing their collective head. We aren't seeing "Smash the State", we're seeing "OMFG Free Shit".
Vic.
Did you miss this bit?
"People get angry and the stupidest, angriest people do stupid angry things."
The point is the "OMFG, free shit" individuals have always been there pilfering, getting caught being punished doing it again ad nauseum. Now they can convince enough pissed off normal people to turn a blind eye or even join in. These pissed off people are pissed off because they think the old guard, the rich and the powerful have squandered the nations wealth and left them to pay the bill. I find it difficult to disagree.
>Did you miss this bit?
No. I just don't respond to ever single byte of illogic I ever see.
Doing the "it's a fair cop but society is to blame" routine only actually works if you're a Python. This isn't the disenfranchised striking back at their opressors through interpretive larceny, this is simply the greedy making excuses for their criminal behaviour. Angry people have a habit of lashing out at the things that make them angry, not the material objecs they desire. To try to dress this up as a reaction against State corruption simply ignores the fact that none of the rioters reacted against that State...
Vic.
"Angry people have a habit of lashing out at the things that make them angry, not the material objects they desire."
That's from your philosophy doctorate thesis is it? thought not.
All you can really say is "Angry people lash out". The result is not logical or predictable. If all the people where motivated by a desire for large screen tellies why did they set fire to the Salford branch of Miss Selfridge. I'll tell you why, if you like, It's because they are a bunch of arseholes doing stupid things while a much larger bunch of angry people applaud them for doing it.
The same guys who went on strike in 70's over 'too small cups of tea' and 'sleeping on the night shift' sacking. The same people who made up the lazy management that allowed British manufacturing to fall into decay. The retired-early brigade. The full grant university graduates. The index linked pensions crowd. These bastards now have the front to call the youth of today lazy.
They like to think exams must be easier than in their day because otherwise it looks as though they weren't as good as they thought they were. They like to tell everyone how they worked hard to support themselves because the facts about being subsidised by the last gold of a looted empire and massive oil revenues makes them feel bad. They like to think unemployment is a result 'not wanting to work' because they can't admit they had it easy.
So much easier to puff up their ego's with the Daily Mail and blame everything on the 'youth of today'
... but analysis and investigation of the roots and causes of rioting seem sort of important to at least a few posters no?
I suppose Cameron and that other chap - Wotsiz-name (the millionaires son of a millionaire - oops that's both of them!) along with Labour's newly appointed chief would far prefer that the roots of rioting were not explored at all.
Besides, what if a visitor to the Olympics ended up shot dead for mere exuberance at his/her home country doing well?
Might as well leave policing to the English Defence League?
you can analyse all you want, it doesn't change the fact that "hardship" is not a reason to riot.
It comes down to "he's got more money than me, I want more so I'll get it however I want"
There was a guy on 5live today, his privatley owned flat has been burned to the ground by rioters looting the shop beneath. He escaped alive because he got out quick. EVERYTHING he has is gone, because some mindless thugs decided that they wanted to take what was not theirs to take.
If this is a way of being listened to I say never listen to them. They seem to equate FEAR with RESPECT. Does the pack really respect the leader or are they just scared of him?
Respect is earned, you can't make someone respect you just like you can't make someone love you.
Respect is given not taken.
im actually quite worried about the BNP or the EDL's response.
you cant help but seeing lots of none-whites in all the footage. its just a matter of time before the fascists jump in.
and to be honest, you are a lot less likely to be killed here than in many countries, even with this going on.
little pricks with hoods dont intimidate me much.
Try again.
The taxpayer is liable for ALL of the damages, including loss of earnings. 1806 Riot Act apparently.
So for all the guardianistas wittering on about social exclusion and ignoring the fact that most of this is simple organised looting - YOU are paying for each and every stolen telly, every pair of stolen trainers, every bit of designer tat. You're paying for the cars, the houses, the windows, the injuries. You're paying for the loss of earnings for all the companies concerned.
You. Not an insurance company. You and everyone else who pays tax.
Feeling as smug now are you? Twats.
Pschic Monkey:
"Respect is earned, you can't make someone respect you just like you can't make someone love you.
"Respect is given not taken.
Something which those complaining of a lack of respect for authority might do well to bear in mind...
What has "authority" (Government, police, state agencies, self proclaimed community leaders, religious leaders, the local bank/building society manager, the educational establishment, the mainstream press, your employer, etc, etc, etc) done lately to earn your respect? What do you expect it to do today? What do you expect it to do tomorrow?
Speaking for myself (as a white, well qualified, basically honest, lucratively employed, home owning family bloke who seldom ends up on the wrong end of it) the answers would in all three cases would be "Not a lot". Speaking as some poor sod in a dodgy area of That London with no job, no hope of a job, and even the job centres closing around me I imagine the aswer might be less equivocal....
I know several police officers, they have earned my respect because they put themselves in harms way to try and protect my way of life, I know. The press don't report on the normal day job a lot of the police in the country do to keep us safe. It's only reported when they do smething wrong.
Thats not to say there are not bad coppers, there are and they should be found and fired for these are the ones that give a bad name to the force as a whole.
Anyone that goes into a job like the police, fire brigade, nursing and teaching (and many others) do so, not for the money, but because they want to help others. For that they get my respect as I could not do it.
That said, respect is not binary, you don't have to have it or not. If I meet a person in teh street, they have done nothing to earn my respect but does that give me the right to destroy other people property and life because I didn't get any respect?
I suspect there are two sides to this argument that will never come together, I think you are wrong, you clearly think that I am wrong. I feel that to blame their circumstances for what they do is creating an excuse for the in-excusable. We can disagree without feeling the need to take what you have because I'm jealous of it and ruining your life in the process.
To gain respect you have to earn it. Destroying the town/city you live in does not earn respect. Holding a gun to my head does not earn my respect.
> What has "authority" ... done lately to earn your respect?
Fuck all. Some rioting against the state would be, IMO, not just understandable, but probably beneficial to society.
But the riots we've just seen were nothing to do with that. They were just an expression of greed by those far too used to instant gratification. There's an old saying about two wrongs...
Vic.
the may be a need for protesting, but there is never an excuse for rioting.
Protesting can be done in many ways that cause a disturbance, fo rinstance if enough people go and sit down in oxford street it will have a greater impact that smashing up the place, and it willprobabky garner more respect from the public.
As my grandfather who raised me, taught me that respect is very hard to earn. He was a Gentleman, and I believe he brought me up correctly..I've tried to emulate him, while sometimes failing miserably.
Respect for Police? Unequivocal. Absolute.
But, I agree with you somewhat, "some poor sod in a dodgy area of That London with no job, no hope of a job, and even the job centres closing around me I imagine the answer might be less equivocal....".
It's the hopelessness that gets you. In their case, they've maybe burned the shops down that might have given them a job.
In my case it's being 55, and 'foreign'. However, I don't feel a desire to burn a shop down, or throw bricks at police.
Mad, mad world nowadays...
There is something from 1886 (I think that was the year) Riot Damage Act.
It runs a bit like this:
people pay taxes for police protection
therefore if property is damaged in a riot they can make a claim within 14 days of the damage occurring as their taxes have not been used as intended.
By the way, I'd guess that most of the tactics used by looters/rioters are just a shift from impoverished communities to city centre shopping areas with an increase in numbers.
Advance spotter on a bike doubling as rapid shuttle between broken shop and home storage depot committed by under 18 year olds (with adult guidance?)
It's been on the go in Leeds for years (Hyde Park - Woodhouse) and other parts of the city
The Register 
Biting the hand that feeds IT
Copyright. All rights reserved © 1998–2025
