UK Cops 'duped' into arresting wrong LulzSec suspect The 19-year-old Scotsman fingered Wednesday as a central figure of the LulzSec hacking crew is a fall guy who was framed to take the heat off the real culprit, according to unconfirmed claims from a rival group. “We believe MET Police got the wrong guy and it happens because of lot of disinformation floating on the web,” a …
Haha! As if. There's a recession on you know, they can't spend money on frivolous stuff like that. Besides, he's bound to have done something, otherwise he wouldn't have come to their attention, right? They just need to hold him long enough to find out what it is.
I'm not sure about the UK laws, but if it's akin to the Yanks, suppose the claims are correct, and the scot in question is not the hacker wanted. But they have his computer and a warrant to inspect it. And if they find a smoking gun for some other crime there, prosecution will happen, even if it wasn't for the LulzSec incident.
"...But they have his computer and a warrant to inspect it. And if they find a smoking gun for some other crime there, prosecution will happen, even if it wasn't for the LulzSec incident."
It's definately a possibility.
Much in the same way that if they want your DNA, all they have to do is damage your car/property and wait for you to call the police. The police will then send the forensics round.
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I don't believe these shadowy organisations work like that anymore. They tend towards agent provocateurs (sp?) to push the usual suspects into more extreme acts than they would otherwise.
The net effect would be the same however. The internet war has been going on for a while now. The fact that the man in the street may have heard of Anonymous just goes to show how far along it is. Sixteen years ago when I was trying to educate my friends as to this new thing called the internet they were like 'what the hell is it and what's it for?'.
If one of the alleged crimes was being involved with the attack on the SOCA website, he can be sent to the local police force area for questioning and further investigations as necessary.
Also the Met have UK-wide powers of arrest and questioning.
In any case, he is only being held under arrest for questioning and is innocent until proven guilty. He has not been charged with any crime yet, so whether any subsequent charges are tried under English or Scots law is a bit moot.
With the state of broadband to most of the Scottish Islands it's doubtful they'd be able to get a stable enough connection (I know of someone who has to schedule meetings based on the tide - at high tide his internet connection drops).
I agree it's a waste of time and resources but as I understand it the SOP is for the investigating force to perform the questioning - so it's either send him down to London or send a team of police to the Shetlands.
"Better, haven't they heard of Skype?"
Skype does not give full data on non verbal behaviour, thus is not very informative where a suspect is dissimulating. The other face of the coin is to be found in PACE, in which police forces are compelled to video record in such a way that the behaviour of interviewers can be assessed for threatening behaviour, as well as the behaviour of suspects.
There is also the small matter of keeping the suspect in jurisdiction so that information pertinent to the offence can be served up in real time for interview purposes, plus the need for interviewers to understand the local culture when interviewing. This informs interview techniques, including ways of tripping up an interviewee, knowing how valid their responses are, and so on.
This use Skype thing that occurs each time Assange and others are mentioned is a natural response amongst people who believe that electronic crimes can be investigated electronically, but it really does fall flat on its face as far as policing, forensic psychology and forensic psychiatry are concerned.
"but it really does fall flat on its face as far as policing, forensic psychology and forensic psychiatry are concerned."
Plus, it lacks a staircase..
But.. they could have just taken him to Glasgow central police station; according to Billy Connolly it has a fine staircase that many people have spontaneously thrown themselves down.
Childish, but that roughly what I've come to expect from that side of the debate. In responding you took the comments completely out of context, which was the importance of conducting interviews in meat space. Billy Connolly? Things have changed a lot since since he flowered. Police officers even go to prison for perverting the course of justice, and more will in the near future. Just watch the NoTW debate, which will become even more torrid.
You find someone causing a bit of trouble, and you arrange to have them flown away to some godforsaken morally bankrupt police state where the local law enforcement officials have a reputation for getting what they want out of their suspects and a bit of tendency to shoot people.
As with any other outsourcing deal, results may be mixed but are quite justifiable to management.
It's not Extraordinary Rendition, it's perfectly normal Ordinary Rendition. The suspect has been rendered to the investigating Police Authority in a perfectly normal legal manner.
The whole Extraordinary bit in Extraordinary Rendition is that it is extra to (that is, outside of) the ordinary, ie: Not the normal way of doing things.
You're only anonymous if NOBODY knows who you are. The principle of the internet group of that name ought to be that nobody knows anyone else's real identity, so that if any member is "doxed" (=documented, real identity revealed) he can't dox anyone else.
This, however, creates impossible logistic problems. How can you organise anything secretly if you have no way of knowing who you're talking to? How can you spot an infiltrator? Sure, you can use impenetrable encryption, but how can you be sure you're sending the keys to someone you can trust? Complete anonymity renders you impotent, and every person you reveal your identity to introduces an exponential security risk.
The world's police forces (around a decade behind in technology, as usual) are now realising that they can win against such "anonymous" groups because of the above logic.
Whilst Anonymous, LulzSec, et al may have given us a few laughs this year, I suspect that the kind of thing they've been doing will remain a fringe activity, and will cease to be news in a few years.
The point is you don't organise anything secretly. You do it all in the open. Organising and secrecy are old school.
Anon 'a' says I have posted certain information anyone want it? and anons 'b' and 'c' say yes. No need to know who 'a', 'b' and 'c'; are. Even if 'c' turns out to be CIA all that happens is that the CIA get access to information the probably already have.
or
Anon 'x' says I propose a protest at a specified location on a specified date. 'x' may or may not turn up and if a crowd turns up too, 'x' may or may not join in. There is no need to keep it a secret. Even if the thought police turn up and photograph everybody in the area they still can't positively identify 'x'. In all probability 'x' is in a different country.
They (the police, intelligence lead (cough - cough) raids, ... ) are on a path to embarrassment.
Well, at least a 19 year old Shetlander had an all expenses trip to the big smoke courtesy of ....
I hope they at least offer him some guided tour highlights of the big smoke apart from the cell he has probably had to endure.
Go on then. Explain exactly how Shetland (Country = UK) falls under a different legal jurisdiction to London (Country = UK). If Mr Salmond and his merry men ever get their way, you'll have a point. Until then however.....
Oh and kidnapped != arrested. Taken as evidence != stolen. Possibly held incommunicado, we don't know and that may even be legal for a period depending on which bit of legislation he was arrested under.
I like the tinfoil hat though, very fetching.....
Thus while they are (currently) both in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, there are very different legal jurisdictions.
There's quite a few things that are legal in Scotland and illegal in England and Wales and vice-versa, and the legal system is quite different - the Scots idea of a 'Not Proven' verdict is one significant difference.
That said, the alleged crime is alleged to have happened in or near London, and extradition to England from Scotland is automatic.
That said, yes, kidnapped != arrested, however the Metropolitan Police have one of the worst reputations in the world - where else would someone who ordered the shooting of an innocent man and then lied and conspired to cover it up get promoted?
"however the Metropolitan Police have one of the worst reputations in the world"
Utter, utter crap.
If you want just one example, look at Rio, in Brazil, where it's the norm for a large proportion of the local police to just kill the street kids because they're seen as vermin. One group of Brazilian police went on a killing spree because of a pay dispute a couple of years back.
Quote
They (CIA style) rendered him to a different legal jurisdiction
Unquote
In short they breached their powers and the 19 year old Shetlander (maybe with parental guidance?) can now sue both local police, the thought police acting on (cough - cough - it must be hayfever?) intelligence, human rights commission, ... (I mean, after all, they all are publicly funded and paid for out of taxation) and seek redress appropriate to the intensity of the breach he endured?
He who LOLZ last LOLZ best. Ultimately, the packets run over corporate satellites and AT&T photonic switches and undersea cables. Almost every packet on the internet goes through NSA filters. So, it may seem like there is a hidden virtual world of hackers, but I think that will turn out to be an illusion. The actions of Anonymous and LulzSec just encourage the owners of the internet to develope better ways to track our activity.
Someone referred to the victim as Scottish. There are no doubt many Scottish people in Shetland but Shetland, like Orkney where I come from, is not Scotland. It is certainly covered by the Scottish legal system and is part of the UK. If you had wanted to get my grandfather angry, all you had to do was tell him he was in Scotland. Me? It depends on who I am talking to...
Someone else joked that at least he got a free trip to London out of it. Like many people from the North, he might not feel to pleased about that.
Bad news! I'm afraid your Grandfather was wrong! Orkadians and Shetland Islanders are both genetically and legally Scots. There is a misguided belief that the Northern Islanders are descended from the Vikings - they are not. The vast majority are and always have been Celts/Picts in their genetic make up. Don't worry, you're not alone - The English, who believe themselves to be genetically Anglo Saxon, are also wrong. They too are predominantly Celtic. Invaders came and went, but as victors, left a massive cultural identity stamp on the areas they conquered. The original inhabitants were never driven out and hence the genetic make remained remarkably intact.
Great news! No one needs to feel superior or inferior anymore - we're all the same.
Have a read of "Blood of the isles", you'll be amazed.
The cops are just showing how stupid they really are. They should be more than a little sure to snag somebody off the street like this, The next victim will have this episode to bolster a lawsuit against the bobbies.
Go Anon, Lulszec, etc! It's time something did a little shaking up of the status quo.
The main reason he was transported to England is so that he could be arrested in an English cop station, meaning he can then be charged under English law, which then means over the next 5 years whilst awaiting trial should he plead not guilty he will be traversing down and up fae Shetland costing the poor boy monies he cannot afford before giving him 18 months split to 9 split to 4.5 months inside and out on tag. Nay bad really.
The good - English law = less time inside. Only a third off in Scotland, half in England
The bad - he will need a solicitor who practices English law, not many of them in Scotland with the experience he needs so even more trips south of the border.
They are bastards like that.
>> 18 months split to 9 split to 4.5 months inside and out on tag. Nay bad really.
>>
>> The good - English law = less time inside. Only a third off in Scotland, half in England
Half off for what? and a third of for what? In England it is still 1/3 off for early plea, half for parole, up to half for good behaviour etc.. The existing system in England means he'd serve as little as 3 months inside for an 18 month sentence (it would have been 2.25 months, if they'd gone ahead with the 50% off for guilty plea). Would it be 1/3 off at all stages in Scotland, if so, the minimum he'd expect to serve would be 5.33 months (75+% longer).
Everyone seems to be missing a rather pertinent point here;
The guy stole the identity of ANOTHER member of Lulzsec. So, even if they don't have "the official spokesman" of the group, they still have another member of the group - albeit a junior one.
Obviously this (as with all comments above) works on the basis the story actually has any truth to it.
They have a loud-mouthed semicompetent internet user.
This isn't some super secret clandestine terrorist cell. The only people who know *anything* are the ones who actually perform the effective attacks, and they are apparently competent enough to hide their tracks this far. Everyone else is just a script kiddie or wannabe who hangs around on various fora and merrily engages in a DDOS on request of some dude on the internet because they have no idea what they are doing.
If he wasn't the right guy, why is the Twitter feed silent?
Seriously When previous arrests happened every time they shouted "they got the wrong guy we are still here" on their feed.
Time to admit it guys, they have got the right man if they didn't he'd be all over twitter right now denying it just like when Cleary was done.
They've obviously got the right guy, in the sense of being the person who maintains the LulzBoat twitter account. But now they'll need to go through his computers to see if he did any of the group's criminal activities as well. Shouldn't be too hard to make a criminal conspiracy stick, as these sort of people usually keep their chat logs.
His computer and his interrogation will lead them to other people within LulzSec and Anon. And if he's got half a brain he'll have a decent solicitor and be dumping on his friends before they can dump on him. So we are at the beginning of this, not at the end.
Interesting that this front-man of a gang of hackers is arrested by the Met, whereas that other front-man of a gang of phone hackers still hasn't been arrested. Lulzsec obviously haven't been paying the Met anything like Murdoch's gang of hackers has been.
we have a guy from Shetland arrested because they think he is Topiary.
we have a website saying that a Swede is Topiary.
we have a transcript from the alleged Swede saying he thinks the police are closing in. Is aware that the UK guy has been arrested and is stopping the twitter feed to make it more convincing that the police have the right guy.
So either:
A: The guy from Shetland is Topiary and the website and transcripts are designed to make it look like he's not.
B: The Swede is Topiary and the guy from Shetland isn't.
C: Someone else is Topiary and is have a good laugh about the whole thing.
D: Topiary does not exist and the whole lulz thing is actually a Chinese AI experiment
Just because he might be from another country, doesn't mean that can't be him. I said this before on other websites, that he could have easily moved there thinking he could hide on a remote island.
Now I read this story which confirms kinda what I said.
http://news.scotsman.com/news/Shetland-village-mystery-over-39cyber.6809401.jp
"he isn't originally from Scalloway. "
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