IT grad claims £5m for crap degree

A graduate from the University of Bradford has had his case to get his degree upgraded thrown out of court. Tony Chinedu Wogu got a 2.2 from Bradford after completing a two-year HND course elsewhere. Unhappy with his "drinker's degree" Wogu went to court claiming discrimination and seeking £5m compensation and a better grade …

[Colin Reid]

Poor guy ...

One thing this guy would definetly get an 'A' in - being a dick. It would be interesting to know the cost of the legal fees he's been hit with.

[David Dawson]

I disagree

I think it would be absolutely hilarious to know the legal fees...

[Bonce]

Awesome!

He's also just f*cked all his future employment prospects.

[sabba]

Duffer

His case "lacked coherence" - probably like his course work. Maybe he should have done a little more preparation. On the other hand, if prep had been one of his strong points he'd have probably got the degree in the first place. As for his lack of a degree "preventing him getting a job", surely he means "prevents him getting a job that is commensurate with his own distorted view of his abilities" (apparently not shared by either the university or the judiciary. Ya gotta larf!!

Paris, well simply cos' she's Paris!!

[Anonymous Coward]

HAHA

"The decision leaves Wogu with the bill for the university's legal fees."

The thing is, he probably genuinely hadn't thought of that.

[Code Monkey]

It's that sort of thinking...

...that earns you Desmond*.

* I don't have a degree at all yet feel educated enough to sneer at Mr Wogu.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, sorry, you misunderstand.

Oh, no sorry, I'm not sneering at all, no that's not what I mean. What I'm doing is more like pointing and laughing.

Besides, "Desmond"... sounds like something that can apply to anyone who choses to use the term.

[Code Monkey]

@AC

I was speaking purely for myself, though admittedly I should have added pointing and laughing for completeness.

[Anonymous Coward]

@code monkey

My general lack of application, and high alcohol consumption, earned mE a "Richard" (or is it a Douglass these days?)

I still managed to get a job though, by not being a dick, i just couldn't get on the graduate fast track schemes.

[Code Monkey]

@AC

I'd rate not being a dick as far more important than the grade(?), subject or even having a degree.

[Just Thinking]

If his case is incoherent and makes no sense

presumably next stop the ECHR

[JaitcH]

Re: If his case is incoherent and makes no sense

This should have highlighted the fact to The Beak that the training was useless.

University training helps discipline the mind so concepts can be organised and presented.

Pay the money Uni.

[Captain Underpants]

Err, that's not how it works, mate

That's not how it works, chap. You attend a university and will have lectures on your subject, along with classes/tutorials and practical sessions where relevant. You'll be examined periodically throughout the course which allows both the student and the teacher to identify strengths and weaknesses. It's not as simple as "pay money, get degree of choice" - that only happens with those highly reputable online universities.

If this guy made it all the way through Finals with no idea he wasn't on track to get a First, he must've been ignoring an awful lot of feedback along the way. Attempting to blame the university and sue them for massive compensation to boot (what the fuck was that £5M claim for?) just makes him look like a tool, and will likely count against his future prospects. Not to mention putting him further in debt with the costs of the case.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it /is/ how it should work

With a decent tutor, anyway. There's a reasonably fine line between encouraging someone to be self starting and just chucking material in their direction and hoping.

If I think back to my degree, I started out with a poor choice (a maths intensive course, which I could not handle) and although I've blanked a lot of it from my head I do remember tutor visits and some form of oversight when it became obvious I wasn't coping. This led to moving to an IT degree that was probably a reasonable choice at the time given other available options.

For the second choice of degree I don't recall any of this purported 'feedback' except during my dissertation where my tutor had their own biases and faults.

I received a Desmond, and part of that was undoubtedly my own fault. It really would have helped if there'd been more monitoring and analysis of areas that might not be your strengths, aside from the bloody obvious ones where you hate the subject or perform poorly despite trying hard. I don't think I would have spent the time to get a first, but reckon a 2:1 would have been in the offering with some guidance.

I'd go as far as to say that parts of the different degree were considerably worse than work. I wasn't paid for my effort, was stuck together with useless turds with no stick (disciplinaries, sacking) to get them to perform their tasks and there was minimal reviewing or setting of objectives I can remember.

Still, it didn't matter. I got a 2:2 for my degree, a 2:1 for my dissertation and received my job for IT related work I'd performed outside the degree - so it wasn't as if I wasn't interested in the field and didn't try.

This was when grants were still given for degrees, and even then the university were trying to charge for notes and similar. This led to a degree of expectation on the quality of notes - I would not wipe my arse with the poorly explained handwritten maths courses I was supplied with by one of the worst lecturers in my initial degree (they had the knowledge but were a poor lecturer - many people didn't bother going to the lectures and read the textbooks instead). For up to £9,000 students will demanding higher service, if they have any sense.

[Captain Underpants]

I don't exactly disagree but I think we're talking at cross-purposes

I know that teaching at universities is not uniformly good, but that doesn't mean that the original argument ("If the guy's argument was incoherent it proves the university's training was crap") holds merit. For all we know the guy in question is an idiot savant but did the wrong subject. For all we know he's an absolute cretin and the finest educators in the world will never change this. For all we know he had a shitty time of it during his exams.

The thing is, though, if he went through three years of crappy equipment and shoddy teaching and only brought it up after having gotten his perceived-to-be-substandard degree, he's not done himself any favours because he's implicitly accepted them as adequate.

He may well have had the potential to do better, but that doesn't mean that his university/department/teachers/goldfish is to blame. And I say this as one who got a Richard in my first time around at uni for various reasons including my casual attitude to the workload (biggest single reason), going a year early, and choosing the wrong subject.

Getting a poor degree is disheartening and a challenge, but it's also a great learning opportunity. Nowt like a challenge to show you what you're really made of. Sadly for this chap it seems unsuccessful & incoherent bullshit lawsuits are what he's made of, which isn't a highly employable quality...

[HP Cynic]

5m

This is just baffling - even if he had a case, and was confident of winning it: where does he pluck £5m from?

I guess the idea was to make an astronomical claim and hope they offer a settlement / award of a few hundred or even tens of thousands.

I also want to know what "equipment" he was trying to take in to lessons....

[Alicia]

IIRC

A few years back, Bradford uni cancelled an animatronics degree course after it had run for the first year. I don't remember the details specifically, but it was such a shambles that the students successfully sued. There were 20+ of them and they all got a sizeable payout (not into the millions though!). My guess is he heard about it and aimed high.

-A-

[Anonymous Coward]

@Alicia

Maybe you were thinking of this :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/breakfast/5269920.stm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/higher/animation-ba-gets-less-than-colourful-response-408545.html

Someone I know was involved in the whole debacle.. wasn't very nice all round. They are now involved in scrabbling around to get grunt roto jobs and the like to work their way up as the degree was worse than useless..

[Anonymous Coward]

If this is true, then I would be curious why he didn't lay down discrimination

>>He claimed he was not allowed to bring equipment into lessons but white students were. He also said lecturers brought in from other departments lacked relevant expertise.<<

[BadmashJavawallah]

The traditional approach...

...as far as I understand, is to threaten to sue the lecturer(s) personally, rather than the institution.

Either that, or have Mummy and Daddy make a donation to the college.

[g e]

Fail

Oh, and a Fail, too.

And yes, you guessed it

A Fail icon to boot :oD

[Anomalous Cowturd]

Hoist... Meet...

Pétard.....

Quelle heureusement!

[TomP]

Warning: massive pedantry

1) Hoist, in the phrase to which you allude, is a verb not a noun.

2) Petard, although derived from French, is an English word, and so does not have an accent on the e.

3) As far as I know "heureusement" means "luckily", in which case "quelle heureusement" doesn't actually make any sense.

[JeepBoy]

Oh Dear

Surely the worrying thing is that this evident moron was actually awarded a 2.2.

I think I'd be quite insulted and feel devalued if I'd also got a 2.2 from Bradford - they can clearly be obtained by any fool!

* FAIL - for graddie attempting to play the racism card. Stupidity is colour-blind!

[LuMan]

Job?

Hmm.. He claims having the 2.2 has scuppered his chance of getting a job. Is this 'any' job, or just the job he wants (probably low-impact, high-pay... well, don't we all). Quick office straw-poll.... We've got half a degree* here in my office and we're all on pretty good money**.

Perhaps what he needs (other than a massive laughing at) is a bit of reality and common sense. It would seem the only degree he has is one of stupidity!

*There's three of us in at the mo and one of us did a couple of years at uni and ended up with a certificate!

**Good compared to minimum wage....

[Pen-y-gors]

What's worrying is...

...that they even gave such a plonker a 2.2 in the first place.

[Anonymous Coward]

In my day

You wer lucky to get a tutu

Or has my mind start wandering again?

[Anonymous Coward]

yes a 2.2 used to be a good result

mine from Bradford has opened doors for me all through my life.

And Bradford is/was a great place to live while you are studying

[Anonymous Coward]

IMPORT MAIL FOR MR TONY WOGU

PROFESSOR CHARLES HU

SCHOOL (UNI) OF MODERN COMPUTERS

HONG KONG

DEAR MISTER TONY,

I AM WRITING OF IMPORTANT MATTER OF EDUCTION FOR YOU AND WE ARE PLEASED TO YOU HAVE BEEN AWARDED FIRST (1ST) GRADE DEGREE IN MODERN DATA PROCESSING AT OUR UNIVERCITY. FOR US TO SEND YOUR DEGREE AND CASH AWARD FOR BEING CLEVER OF 35 MILLIAN DOLLARS YOU MUST SEND RELEASE FEE. PLEASE SEND YOUR BANK DETAILS AND CREDIT CARD NUMBERS FOR IDENTIFICATION. GOD WILLING WILL ALL BE QUICK DONE.

PLEASE FAX TO OFFICE [phone] OR EMAIL [e-mail]

YOURS

MR CHARLES (PROF. DR.)

[Tim Spence]

Sign of things to come?

Of course, with students liable for vastly increased fees in the future, is this a sign of things to come as students look to get maximum value from their money?

I was the last year of students to get my degree for free, so even if I felt it was the University's fault I only got a 2:2 (and not my own for spending all day and night playing pool in the pub), I paid nowt, so can't complain too much. However, if I was spending up to £9k per year on it, I'd be looking for... no, *expecting*... top class facilities, top class lecturers, etc, rather than old hardware, rickety buildings, geriatric lecturers, etc, which I actually got.

[Another One]

Old Equipment?

WIth appologies if your comment was loaded with sarcasm etc...

I wonder just how much having that latest and greatest processor really is going to make someone more clever or intelligent etc? Just how much is a brand spanking new young lecturer going to be better than an old and experienced one?

Just not sure if you can equate top class to new rather than old? Sure it's better to have good quality than poor but shouldn't it be down to the individual student to make the best and do the best rather than be stimulated by eye candy?

From my experience I got my degree from the OU over a number of years while holding down a full time busy job and gaining 3 kids on the way. So I'm perhaps not the best one to judge.

[Tim Spence]

Sarcasm

It was a loaded with sarcasm, but you're making assumptions that the opposite of "old hardware" automatically equals the "latest and greatest processor".

I maybe should have qualified my comment with 'obsolete', but old hardware could mean teaching students on BBC Micros, when the rest of the world is a decade on from those. Yes, basic computing principles often remain the same, but if you're on a semi-vocational course, then surely it's better to learn the principles on something you're likely to see once you get a job.

As for an old vs new lecturer, experienced is almost always way better, but not when they lack charisma, and still use teaching methods from the 19th century.

FYI, I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, but if you're paying big bucks, you start to expect the best in *every* area.

[Trygve]

Up to 9K per year? Just FYI...

A decent private school will charge ten grand a year to teach a kid GCSEs/A-levels with decent teachers, decent facilities etc.

If you want top-class university-level you'd be looking at a lot more than £9K, and you'd be looking outside the UK.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Trygve

"If you want top-class university-level you'd be looking at a lot more than £9K, and you'd be looking outside the UK."

This isn't strictly true. If you look at the world league tables, the UK punches above its weight. We generally have 2 or 3 universities in the world top 10. Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial are all absolutely world class, as are places like the LSE. The way these universities maintain standards with below standard fees is that they subsidise EU students from their own coffers (I'm serious about this - I'm a big donor to my Oxford College and I've seen detailed accounts). This is unsustainable, so they also actively try and increase the number of students from outside the EU.

Of course, in the US, you can easily be paying $50k per annum for a comparable education. And the US does have something like 80 of the top 100 universities.

[EvilGav 1]

Really ??

@Trygve - if you're only paying £9K a year for a private school, it's a really cheap one. Try £9K a term for a good one.

@AC - According to this :

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/hybrid.asp?typeCode=438

The US has just 54 universities in the top 200, the UK has 4 in the top 10 and 29 in the top 200.

If we compare the top 100, the US has 32 and the UK has 18.

I do agree that, if you live in the UK, you're probably getting one of the best educations in the world at University.

[fLaMePrOoF]

The title is required, and must contain letters and/or digits.

"The decision leaves Wogu with the bill for the university's legal fees"

Thus demonstrating that he really isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

(A tool none the less)

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh?

But what was the degree course he 2.2-ed, what was his HND?

[david wilson]

Complaints

>>"Mr Wogu told the court he "did his best" in his degree, but was hampered by alleged racism, out-of-date equipment and unsuitable staff."

Well, at least two of those three things would be excellent preparation for all kinds of jobs.

[David Perry 2]

It's not just the degree that gets you the job...

Mine is a 3rd class Honours degree (BSc Computer Science). It was everything else I did at uni in my non-class time - societies (radio station, theatre company), working with different people/units, holding down a job most of the time I was there and fitting that in around everything else. I'd like to know what his extra curricular portfolio looks like, cos mine got my jobs (including current one). The degree was a lookin, not the deciding factor.

[Lee Dowling]

Hmmm

Same degree here, same grade.

No employer has ever asked for proof of it. My first employer cited it being on my CV as a reason to trust me when I had no other experience except running my own business (I was in the middle of tinkering with their entire business-critical network at the time, and did a better job than 2 paid IT consultancies that had looked at the problem). Every employer since has gone on the results and good word of the previous employers (even starting bidding wars and poaching me back from them, etc.).

To be honest - nothing I learned in uni would have helped with the work I do. I use the stuff I *already* knew before entering university, the stuff I have learned on my own throughout, and the "theoretical" stuff from CS was only ever used when I was helping the 4th-year MSc's with their programming assignments as a first year BSc, and/or when I program the occasional game for myself and want to use the proper techniques rather than just some heuristic.

I find my grade a bit embarrassing, if I'm honest, and regularly hang out with PhD's and Masters graduate friends and my field is education so virtually everyone I work with has a 2:2 degree and PGCE at minimum. But sue the university? They'd have had to literally been stapling my exam paper shut to the desk or something. My third is my fault. Hindered career advances? Not in the least. In fact, the only thing that could really do that would be to do something ludicrous like make it into the news for suing my university because I didn't "pass".

[Anonymous Coward]

A counter example

I got a first in Computer Science, and since then have routinely used the theory from my degree actively in work. Even some of the more esoteric stuff.

Of course, I agree that a lot of CS grads don't use the stuff from their degree in work. I just think you are more likely to use it than if you are a History grad...

[Matt Hawkins]

Ha Ha

If he is any good at IT a 2.2 shouldn't make any difference.

Most people in IT where I work don't have degrees in any IT field.

If you've got it, you've got it. This guy clearly hasn't got anything other than a large bill and lots of egg on his face.

Exactly what "equipment" did he want to take into lectures? All you should need is a brain, some eyes, some paper and a writing implement.

[Anonymous Coward]

whats wrong with a Desmond?!

Im upset by this story and the denigration of my mickey mouse degree and I think I want to sue Tony Chinedu Wogu for 5 million in damages....

Wonder if he has a rich general uncle?

[Craig 12]

I've got a 2:2

I guess it was ultimately my fault, but I think it's also the problem with CS in general. Half the people don't know really why they did it, and half the modules are tediously uninteresting compared to whatever part of CS you are interested in. Case in point, for my final year project I got a 'first' grade because I actually cared.

This guys biggest problem is representing himself surely? Common sense or even genuine misjustice won't get you far in a place of specific jargon, technicality and process.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Job?

> Hmm.. He claims having the 2.2 has scuppered his chance of getting a job.

Well, from what I've read recently given the huge number of graduates now coming out of Universities there are a large number of employers who will only consider 2.1 and above.

[WonkoTheSane]

A phrase for Wogu to practise...

"Would you like fries with that?"

[John P]

I don't want to give a title!

What a complete and utter twatdangle.

Thumbs up for improving what has so far been a shockingly bad and non-productive day.

[Anonymous Coward]

LOLS

".. had not gone through the university's appeals system because he feared he would be told "to eff off"."

- not a particulalry good start to a defence admitting that you think you won't be successful in any appeal and crying throughout.

In my day a 2:2 was pretty respectful - still an honours degree. Didn't do me any harm but it'll still take me about 100 years to make 5 million on my salary.

[Anonymous Coward]

Desmond

Because it's a TuTu

[Cazzo Enorme]

No sympathy

I wonder if he's playing the race card, as the other complaints - outdated equipment and crap lecturers - are typical of most computing based university courses. I can't believe he really would have put up with being treated differently to white students without kicking up a fuss well before now, and having friends (white and Asian) who studied at Bradford I can't believe the majority of his fellow students wouldn't have kicked up a fuss as well.

As for a 2:2, that's what I got (in a humanities subject no less), and I'm now senior programmer for a large IT company. I've also been involved in recruitment for IT staff at several companies, and they've never insisted on a computing related degree, nor have they considered one a sign of competency.

[envmod]

lol

africans

[Valerion]

Legal fees

Just enrol at another Uni, get a Student Loan and use it to pay the fees.

When he screws up that course too he can have another at sueing!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a...

...2.2 (my own fault, too young, too immature, felt pressured into attending Uni to picked the first thing and hated the next three years). But I have a good job, after a while the degree means dick and it's experience/relevant post-degree qualifications.

The only problem is when recruiters demand a CompSci 2.1 or higher for no real reason (then again, I have little time or patience for recruiters).

[Anonymous Coward]

2.2 isnt that a Froyo?

see title

[Anonymous Coward]

Phew!

The judge agreed with this description and threw the case out. He said the court had no power over academic decisions, nor the expertise to judge if they were correct or not.

Bet lots of Universities are relieved about this ruling

Totally off the point should it be "or" instead of "nor" sort of seems like a double negative to me.

(AC because guess where I work!)

[Mark 65]

Power

If the court has no power over the decision then why did the case make it that far? Just curious.

[Anonymous Coward]

Got mine after I got the job

Worked for mine after I had the job. Made it to a 1st class honours BSc in computing but that has had no effect on my career path so far...

[Anonymous Coward]

He's full of shit

I don't even have an Honours degree, and I make a good living working in IT. If he has a 2:2 and can't find IT work, he isn't trying all the angles.

What does he want, to go straight into a top-tier, high-flying, 100k/year job straight out of uni? Never gonna happen.

Additionally, as a black man, I'm fed up of seeing my fellows cry racism whenever things don't go their way. This isn't what the Civil Rights movement struggled for, dammit. Man the fuck up.

[Shocked Jock]

What a wastrel!

I can't believe that he was daft enough to work to get a 2:2!

Back in the day, I knew someone whose extracurricular activities were such that he was the only one to get a 3rd class - and then he went on to Harvard. (Money talks.)

[Anonymous Coward]

education education education

I managed to get hold of a prospectus for some university oop north ands was shocked to find that on some courses you only need 2 GCSE's in English and Maths. This in turn would get you a degree of stupidity from the university of cut and paste. I flunked my O levels (remember them?) due to a lack of interest and really poor prep and attempted to go to college or a better school locally, but this wasn't to be as I didn't have high enough grades (I got a fistful of average CSE grades), so it was back to old skool for me. I re-sat a few GCSE's and in computer studies I wrote a kids counting program using user defined graphics, arrays, procedures (this was on a Beeb, younger types should google BBC B) and played a tune which I nicked from A&B Computing. I was told that this was far too advanced use of code for the GCSE. It didn't really matter as a month later it was decided that my education was to be terminated. The teacher concerned liked the program and took it home for his young kids. I've been more unemployed than employed since. Way it goes, I suppose.