back to article Apple refuses frozen iPhone repair

Apple has refused to repair an iPhone 4 on the grounds that it was used in an ambient temperature below zero, in breach of the specifications. Norwegian rag Bergens Tidende reports it was -12 outside as Lenin Kristin Løvvik connected her iPhone to the car stereo for the provision of musical accompaniment on the way in to work …


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  1. SuperTim

    cold car...

    If she is claiming that she didnt connect the phone up until the inside of the car reached 20 degrees she is talking rubbish. When it was -12 last month, the inside of my car didn't ever reach 20 degrees. It peaked at about +3 after about 15 minutes (i have an external AND internal thermometer in my car). I am not surprised that the thing froze, just surprised that she thinks it didn't.

    1. Anton Ivanov
      Thumb Down

      She would have been better to connect it before

      Its own heat would have gone at least some way towards preventing condensate from forming in it. If you are bringing something from -12 into a humid environment you either take the plunge and turn it on straight away so it warms up before condensate forms or you wait until it is properly nice warm and dry..

      By the way, it could have died even if she did not "turn it on". There is more than enough "on" bits in an "off" phone to short itself out from condensate after a 30C temperature change. The fact that you cannot chuck the battery out and wait until it warms up (as I have done a couple of times with my Nokia after sub -10C temperatures) does not help either.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward


      Your car didn't get above 3 therefore no car can?


    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      cold car...

      Oh, so because your car is incapable of getting higher than +3, then that means that there are no cars in the world that can do that.

      Using your logic, based on my sample size of 1, all posters to this forum are stupid.

      1. BristolBachelor Gold badge

        @AC cold car...

        "Using your logic, based on my sample size of 1, all posters to this forum are stupid."

        Since I'm sure that you do not have access to the person you replied to, the 1 person you could test was yourself? Is your post an admission to the world? Is that why it was AC?

        Where is the "sticks out tongue and blows a raspberry" icon? Nurse is it time for my meds?

        1. SuperTim

          Sample size of 1

          Yes, 1

          Yes, i have a crap heater

          Yes i did actually know how warm the car was (instead of guessing it was warm because the air coming out of the vents was warm) and even with warm air out of the vents, the dashboard WAS STILL COLD!

          If the lady in question was using a vent mouted holder, then the -12 air being blown over the phone at the start may have excaserbated the situation.

          BTW Anyone care to tell me how they know how warm the inside of their car is? I am the only person i know with an inside thermometer, and stop banging on about "climate control" like it is standard in every car. most cars still need engine temperature to get the heaters warm, even with A/C, and it take time to get through the heater matrix.

          Oh, and bravo to all of you who have the best cars in the world in Canada or Norway. I salute you for happening to be somewhere where it gets very cold on a regular basis. it doesnt drop to -12 in the UK very often.

          1. Cameron Colley


            I recently returned from Norway and, while I was there, I was a passenger in a car equipped with both internal and external thermometers -- the readings were 21C and -15C, respectively, on one outing.

            Anecdotally, using my own body as a thermometer, I would say that a couple of taxis I took in Oslo while it was -22C (recorded round the corner from where I was) were at least 10C to 12C because I took of my jacket and felt as warm as inside a house recorded at 22C (I'm accounting for me being used to the cold and on a short journey).

            So, there you have it, Norwegian cars do get over 3C inside when it's -12C.

            On an unrelated note, I'm not sure that condensation is as obvious a cause as it seems -- one thing I noticed when it dropped below -10C was how dry the air was, even inside, meaning that even in a colder car window condensation wasn't as bad as it is in the UK in much higher temperatures.

            1. Anonymous Coward

              Re: @SuperTim

              "On an unrelated note, I'm not sure that condensation is as obvious a cause as it seems -- one thing I noticed when it dropped below -10C was how dry the air was, even inside, meaning that even in a colder car window condensation wasn't as bad as it is in the UK in much higher temperatures."

              In Oslo, the humidity is a lot lower than in the UK, which makes the occasional dip towards -20C quite manageable once you know how to dress properly for the weather. However, it's a Bergen newspaper involved here, and if the woman concerned (Leni Kristin, not Lenin Kristin as the translation would have you believe!) lives on the west coast, I'd expect the humidity situation to be somewhat different.

              But yes, just because someone in Britain can't get their car warm doesn't mean that everyone has the same problem. Buses in Oslo have the internal temperature on display, and they manage to get the temperature to levels where the driver doesn't need a full-on polar bear costume in order to drive the bus around town.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                RE: warm cars in the UK

                My car also has internal and external temperature readings. I accept they may not be entirely accurate but I suggest they are close enough for an experiment of this type.

                Anyway, over December a couple of times I had my car read external temperature of -10C / -11C and the internal ambient temperature reading 23C, within 5-10 minutes of setting off. I grant you that my aluminium gear knob was still almost painfully cold to the touch, but the air temp was toasty.

          2. Stacy


            Whilst it's not an exact science I know roughly how warm my car is because a) I can drive in short sleves and without a coat - ergo it's probably more than +18, and b) because the Climate stops blasting air into the car once it reaches the pre-set temp (23 degrees).

            I'm trying to remember that last time I sat in a car that refused to warm up (I would notice as I hate wearing a coat whilst driving). Even my old 1978 Fiesta and 1980 Spitfire coped perfectly with winter weather...

            Get your car fixed - you may find it more pleasent to use in cold weather :)

    4. jodyfanning
      Thumb Down

      cold car?!

      @SuperTim, you must have pretty cruddy heater on your car.

      And those of us who live in the Nordic regions actually _expect_ that our things work even in sub-zero temperatures.

    5. Doug Glass

      Lousy Heaters

      The heater in my old 1999 F1150 will bring the interior to 50F+ in the wilds of Canada and outside temp there was -10F at its lowest. But then I made sure the thermostat was working properly and it had the proper mix of engine coolant. Oh frakkin' sorry ... that's -23c and 10c respectively.

    6. Anonymous Coward

      Then Tim... have shit climate control....or none.

  2. gautam
    Jobs Halo

    Apple is right

    You use it AS WE TELL YOU. If you use it on your left hand, warranty is void. If signal drops, its users fault. It its cold, its your fault.

    We love your money, not you, undertand?

    St. Jobs is always right, and if you dont believe, read the previous line.

    1. Anonymous Coward


      Yes, yes, well done you. Very witty.

  3. N2

    -12 ?

    It was -15 in Worcestershire in December.

    Anyway, I always thought electrical items performed better at lower temperatures or has Mr Jobs re-written the laws of physics?

    1. Steven Jones

      Probably condensation

      The problem will almost certainly be condensation. If the iPhone was at a sub-zero temperature and was put in a warm car then it's very possible condensation will form internally and that does electronics no good at all. I've known it happen to laptops left in a car boot overnight and turned on in a warm office.

      1. Anonymous Coward

        Delivery Notes

        I have seen many time on the delivery notes of computers/electricals and small print of paperwork that items should allowed to return to room temperature before use after being delivered, so if that is the cause for once Apple aren't alone in saying so!

        I for one welcome our new frostbitten overlord, silencing a few of the iTwats around London won't be a bad thing!

        1. Grease Monkey Silver badge


          Amuses me that I've read that you should not unpack and use electronic equipment immediately upon delivery given the risk from condensation. Which kind of conflicts with the advice that you must unpack it straight away and check for damage otherwise the courier will accept no responsibility for any damage.

          So if you unpack it and plug it in and the condensation in the PSU blows it up it's your fault, but if you don't unpack it and plug it in and it turns out the screen was damaged by a high G shock in transit then that's your fault too. Damned if you do...

      2. erox

        Condensation - NOT!

        Get a grip. The lady is starting out for work in a car that's been parked outside all night, so how on earth is she going to start out at an ambient temp of +20?! If she had some kind of car heater, the air would be bone dry.

        Starting out at an ambient temperature of -12 inside the car, the air will be very dry. Also, the device being brought into the car from the woman's pocket or home environment will likely be much warmer. Adding to that, as the environment inside the car gradually warms up, you're actually heating the dry outside air, resulting in a further drop in the relative humidity.

        So, from the above plus my own extensive experience in similar environments: condensation is definitely NOT a problem!

        1. Annihilator


          Have you never got into a car in Winter then?? As a meat-bag, you are the primary cause of moisture in the air (your breath for example, or bringing in general moisture from the ground - not uncommon in Winter), which will condense on any cold surface. Usually this is the windscreens as they're in touch with the external conditions - it's why you have to stick the heaters full on and aim them at the windscreen. All other cold materials in the car (iPhone) will take the role of condensing your breath.

          Also - the only way Apple would be refusing a repair, is if the moisture indicators had been activated (pink things in the earphone socket and 20-pin connector).

          1. erox

            Cold car in winter anyone?

            Indeed, I'm getting into a cold winter car almost daily. Before Xmas we had a period with daily temperatures down to -20, but at the moment we're experiencing a balmy 0. That's in the lowlands. At our family's mountain resort, it's not uncommon to start out with a temp of -30 inside the car (it pains me to hear the cold engine turn over ... ).

            And yes, I've never experienced a problem with condensation.

        2. Anonymous Coward

          Are you forgetting?

          Scandinavians are used to long, hard winters. Most cars over there are left plugged in to the mains overnight to provide power to engine coolant pre-heaters. When the car is started, the coolant is already warm, so the heater works immediately. Many also have timed internal heaters, so that your car is roasty-toasty inside by the time you unlock it to go to work.

        3. gafisher

          Condensation - GOT

          If the device had been inside the house for long, particularly overnight, the warm, humid air inside it would have released condensation when the lady brought it out to the cold car. Apple ought not to build its products so poorly -- this problem is commonly and easily dealt with in many other electronic products -- but a badly designed device could indeed be susceptible to condensation under the conditions described.

      3. erox

        Condensation - NOT!

        Nope. The lady is starting out for work in a car that's been parked outside all night, so how on earth is she going to start out at an ambient temp of +20?! Even if she had some kind of car heater, the air would be bone dry.

        Starting out at an ambient temperature of -12 inside the car, the air will be very dry. Also, the device being brought into the car from the woman's pocket or home environment will likely be much warmer. Adding to that, as the environment inside the car gradually warms up, you're actually heating the dry outside air, resulting in a further drop in the relative humidity.

        So, from the above plus my own extensive experience in similar environments: condensation is definitely NOT a problem!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward


          Most condensation in a warming up car would be through human breath.

          I think Apple are taking the piss here but condensation is certainly possible.

  4. Anton Ivanov

    Sounds like condensate

    If the description is right, it died from condensation, not from "being frozen". It worked after being brought in from cold when connected and barfed when the car warmed up to 20C. I would not be surprised if the car had the air recycle to on and was nicely steamed up by that time providing the necessary humidity.

    There is no need for temperature to drop to -12 for this type of fault (though this helps).

    1. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

      Check your physics

      1: The object brought from the house into a cold car will have been warm

      2: Air in a cold car is dry

      3: If the temperature of an object is higher than ambient, no condensation forms, even at 100% relative humidity.

      4: If you heat up a (cold) car the air becomes dryer.

      And even IF condensation forms, electronic circuitry can easily be made robust against that, in particular low-voltage stuff. Actually, just a bit of insulating coating does the trick.

  5. Anonymous Coward


    My Desire HD worked just fine at -9 in Manchester over the Christmas break. -11 really is not that cold for northern Europe or anyplace with a continental climate.

    1. ThomH

      You have to assume the iPhone normally works at -11

      On the basis that they've sold millions of them over several years, yet this failure is newsworthy. As far as I'm concerned, the story is that Apple's customer support people are acting like asses.

      1. tryfan


        Yes - and that WAS the story, at least to my understanding...

      2. Number6


        "As far as I'm concerned, the story is that Apple's customer support people are acting like asses."

        That's newsworthy?

  6. John Riddoch

    0-35 degrees?

    That's a pretty tight range for usable temperature; I'm pretty sure there are several places where temperatures can range outside both ends of that range in a normal year. Certainly most locations will go outwith one end of that range during the year.

    Also, selling a phone in Norway which doesn't work below zero degrees seems grossly negligent; in the UK it's only stupid rather than negligent.

    1. The First Dave


      0-35 is pretty much standard spec for any solid state electronics.

      1. ChrisC Silver badge
        Jobs Horns

        Actually...'s pretty much the bare minimum spec for the cheapest and nastiest components you can get these days - you'd have to deliberately go out of your way to produce something with an even lower spec. So given how much the fruity one likes to sell its kit on the basis of superior design and build quality, is it unreasonable for its customers to then assume that said kit is built to at least slightly more than bargain-basement specs?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Thumb Down


          Fuck off.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Quality of components and internal construction maybe suspect.

          True, however:

          * Apple and their component suppliers may too cheap to adequately waterproof the parts or PCBs, thus condensation becomes a problem.

          * Any components containing liquid e.g. Li-ion batteries and any electrolytic capacitors may not work properly when cold, if cheaper components were used.

          Apple have been known to use lower quality components in their products!

          Any mobile phone should be expected to be exposed to some humidity, condensation, and see a wider range of temperatures than domestic electronics, so should be appropriately temperature cycled and humidity tested as part of the QA testing, especially after any re-work; I bet they didn't do this adequately!

          It really takes the P that there are obvious moisture sensors at all, in any mobile phone; IMHO this is a obvious indicator of inadequate industrial design, and thus the device is not fit for purpose!

          Industrial design is not just about aesthetics and usability, it is should also be about suitability of a product to the environment it is used in!

  7. Andrew Jones 2


    So if you use it in the rain and the little bit of water sensitive paper gets damp (inside the headphone jack) warranty is void, if you use it outside when it is below 0 warranty is void (which according to my climate data for the Scottish Borders is currently running at 5 months of the year where this is possible) if you use it inside you get reduced signal strength due to walls / metals etc.

    This is rapidly reducing the available times you can actually use your iphone!

    I wonder how long it will be until it can only be used on certain days of the week?

    1. Charles 9

      Don't you know?

      Most phones put in escape clauses (in molecular print only visible to electron microscopes) that their phones are only guaranteed to work between the hours of 7:55PM and 8:00PM on the last day of any month between January and March, exclusive (and only if the day is odd), during a hailstorm and a lunar eclipse.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Way to go!

    Keep up the good work Apple.. sooner or later your little phone that couldn't will be a smelly heap in the ashes of yesteryear. I don't think even a hundred thousand Android/Symbian/whatever fans could do as much damage to your rep as you do yourselves..

    1. Giles Jones Gold badge

      Yeah yeah

      One customer with a problem out of how many sold?

      Other manufacturers tell they customers with broken phones to sod off all the time, it's just not newsworthy to report about such companies as people expect that level of abuse from them.

      People are buying Apple and expecting a premium level of service, but the reality is that no manufacturer is going to honour a warranty when the phone has been frozen, toasted or washed.

      Maybe if you bought a phone off Mclaren and paid a few hundred thousand for it then they would fly an engineer out (like they do with their sports cars).

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward


        Yeah, there's only one customer living in a cold country... no need to worry. Besides which, this is publicity damage, not customer damage .. far harder to recover from.

  9. hitmouse
    Jobs Horns

    Californian conditions

    If you aren't operating in Californian temperatures, Californian timezone and hemisphere for alarms etc then you are operating outside the expected operating range and test environment for half of Silicon Valley products.

    It's like travelling to a new country and having at least half the Google UI (including on the iPhone) switch to another language because it doesn't recognise any of the parameters for browser or UI language.

    1. Mike Flugennock
      Thumb Up

      re: Californian conditions

      hitmouse sez on 01.11.11 @11:59gmt:

      "It's like travelling to a new country and having at least half the Google UI (including on the iPhone) switch to another language because it doesn't recognise any of the parameters for browser or UI language."

      You, too, huh?

      My wife and I spend a month in Puerto Vallarta every year, and getting connected/using the 'Net has become a real breeze, except for Google's insistence on coming up in Spanish -- even after I click the available link that allegedly serves it up for me in English. It reads my IP address and assumes I must be Mexican. I finally ended up having to nab the CustomizeGoogle add-on that forces it to display in English. Thanks for nothing, Sergey and Larry.

      "If you aren't operating in Californian temperatures, Californian timezone and hemisphere for alarms etc then you are operating outside the expected operating range and test environment for half of Silicon Valley products."

      Well-lll... yes and no. At least, I'd hope that manufacturers in the SV would have the sense to test their products under adverse conditions, either by creating artificial test environments or by shipping out prototypes to beta testers (or someone like them) who live in sub-optimal environments.

      1. A. Coatsworth Silver badge

        re: Californian conditions

        It's off topic , but it makes almost throw up in anger every time a page tries to look smart and changes UI or language display based on location, even though I clearly indicated I want the default homepage. Google is probably one of the biggest offenders, but by no means the only one.

        Given that I use a vpn that connects to servers in France and Germany, seemly at random, this is a big annoyance.

        FAIL-that's what that behavior is.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        where's the problem?

        ... just try the following: gives you english = german = spanish = netherlands

        and it doesn't care what the IP address is.

        There isn't much logic in this though, I thought 'be' would return something from Belgium but judging from the type face, it is probably Belarus

        and 'uk' give you Ukraine


        1. hitmouse

          Google languages

          There are many places where Google will just switch away from such language settings or present URLs with no language parameter whatseoever. I tried to download a Chrome developer build and it kept switching things to French, as it also does with Google Maps, Panoramia, Picasa, Calendar, Blogger and almost every other google service I can think of. Even when I am logged into my Google account with stated language and location preferences that duplicate all my browser and OS settings, it will always try to trump these with IP-based settings. If you're using an iPhone-based web-app then you won't even get a URL to play with - the buttons on the app will just turn to another language, you'll get unreadable EULAs etc.

          I've watched people at computer terminals in hotels and airports start weeping with frustration when Google switches languages on them. Some European hotel chains run all their networks from a gateway in the country of their HQ which causes endless frustration. So Google not only doesn't give you your current language, but it's not even working in the language of the country you're physically in.

          Lastly, consider the idiocy of localizing every language name in the search Options screen to the current language. This means if you can't find the word for English in another language or alphabet then you're hosed trying to switch back - especially if you're one of the 99% of people who couldn't edit a URL if their life depended on it.

    2. Petrea Mitchell

      COASTAL Californian conditions

      The famously mild climate that Silicon Valley enjoys is limited to a mere strip of California along the coast. Head east over the hills, and you reach the Central Valley, where temperatures over 35C are perfectly normal in summer. Head further east to the Sierras, and -12C is perfectly normal in winter. And you're still in California.

  10. jodyfanning

    Oh dear, how sad

    I was using my Nokia N8 to take photos outside at -28C over Christmas. And then coming inside it fogged up completely on the outside, but never had an issue.

  11. Anonymous Coward


    ...I thought iphones were meant to be cool???

    Yes, yes...that was truly 'coat-worthy'...i'm going...

  12. Sir Adam-All


    why did the owner say "oh yeah it was -12 and it stopped working" rather than "its knackered please fix"

  13. Captain TickTock
    Jobs Horns

    Move to a warmer climate...

    ...Not that big of a deal

    1. Anonymous Coward


      Why do Americans say "not that big of a deal"- the vestigial and unnecessary "of" just sounds clumsy and gives it an awkward rhythm.

      That has puzzled me of late. People who do that should be struck with the frozen corpses of people who say "we are where we are".

      1. Charles 9

        It makes sense to us.

        When you say it "NOT that-BIG-of-a-DEAL", it comes off the tongue pretty smoothly.

        And as for "We are where we are," we tend more towards, "We are WHO we are."

        1. Gangsta


          I would have not made that post- it's not that big of a deal.

          We are where we are and We are who we are, no biggie , understand?

      2. This post has been deleted by its author

      3. justkyle


        The colloquialism here is "no biggie" which actually does roll off the tongue quicker and smoother as well.

        I, myself, have never heard it expanded out into the form of "not that big of a deal."

        1. Captain TickTock
          Jobs Horns

          Never heard it? Get with the program...

        2. Laie Techie

          No biggie?

          Growing up in Hawaii, I'd say "small kine" ("kine" being Pidgin for "kind" or "type"). I relocated to the U.S. mainland for work where "no biggie" is common.

          Back on topic, I wasn't aware of the temperature limitations of the iPhone. I used my phone in 5F (-15C) weather and the biggest problem was trying to keep my fingers warm. On these cold mornings I miss the stylus.

      4. Anton Ivanov
        Thumb Up

        Because most of them theselves do not know what move to a warmer climate means

    2. ratfox

      No need to move

      Just wait a couple of centuries, global warming will take care of it!

      The heavy one with the fur hat, please...

  14. DavCrav

    Unreasonable terms?

    Isn't it unreasonable for Apple to specify an operating range of 0-35 for outdoor kit sold in Norway? Shouldn't that mean the government slaps them with a lawsuit, as Norway/Sweden have *decent* consumer rights?

    1. The Indomitable Gall


      I reckon they'll get bitten by the watchdog for this one....

    2. Gobbledygook

      They are unreasonable.

      In the original Norwegian article the watchdog does indeed chime in.

      They state that under the law one is safe in assuming that something sold in Norway will tolerate the Norwegian climate.

      They also point out that the consumer protection law assumes device fault in the first 6 months after purchase unless the manufacturer can PROVE otherwise. So, in most cases you are pretty well protected. (Tire tracks on said iThingy might constitute proof of abuse.)

      That isn't to say that companies don't try to get away with denying coverage. They do it all the time. But the consumer protection agency here is pretty good at putting the companies in their place when needed. :-)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: They are unreasonable.

        "But the consumer protection agency here is pretty good at putting the companies in their place when needed."

        Yes, I'm looking forward to the bit where Apple claim that their shiny products are not subject to a five year statutory warranty period, just like Nokia and pals tried to do a few years back. (In fact, Nokia and pals argued against a much shorter warranty period, the plan backfiring when it was pointed out that you'd spend less on a washing machine and get a five year warranty.)

        As for the condensation excuse, this was a pretty common way for manufacturers to reject warranty claims, insinuating that somehow the punter had really put their phone in the bath and it was all their own fault. I imagine that the watchdog did a few rounds with Nokia and pals over that, as well. That Apple probably want to trot out this excuse now just shows the arrogance of that outfit.

  15. Tigra 07
    Thumb Up

    No tittle required, just a little tattle

    "while the Sony Ericsson X10 reckons it's tough enough to play Angry Birds at -10 at least."

    I can confirm minus 10 and it still works, connects to the net and gets a full signal.

    ...Mine does have a cover on it though

  16. adnim

    Intel CPU's

    work @ −196 °C.

    I thought the operating temperature range of the iPhone was a result of the battery operating temp range.

    For Li-Polymer batteries such as used in the iPhone;

    Charge 0ºC to +45ºC.

    Discharge -20ºC to +60ºC.

    Obviously not.

    Perhaps then the restrictive operating temperature range of the iPhone is a result of the quality of the components used in it's construction.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Thumb Up

      I have an iPAQ h4150 pocket PC

      that I use as my satnav, it's about four years old, and it stays in the car overnight tucked away. When I plugged it in when the UK was having it's -15 degree season in December, I got it out of its hideyhole, its metal case was freezing cold, switched it on and plugged it in to charge, and it powered up happily and popped up a message saying something like "too cold to charge the battery - as soon as it's warm it will start charging".

      Ran from plugged-in power for ten minutes then began charging.

      Windows Mobile... Microsoft wins again.

      (Posting as AC as I've left my asbestos suit got burnt when I told this story to the fanbois in the Apple store)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Quartz crystal specs

      Microprocessors need a clock signal. The crystal oscillators, especially the teeny weeny ones, often don't like getting cold though they should start up again once warmed up.

  17. James 127

    Why sell to those countries?

    Why does Apple sell iPhones to countries with such low temperatures if the device is unable to operate correctly?

    1. Mike Hanna


      "I'm not going to sell to you cos it's too cold in your native country." Isn't that racist?

      "You damned Eskimoes aren't allowed iPhones? Want an iPad and live in Africa? Stuff you!"

      I'm kinda thinking that would be more of a PR-disaster than pointing out the working conditions when one goes wrong on a rare occasion. Temperatures in Manchester and Belfast both dropped to record lows, and my missus and I have had no problems.

  18. g e

    Good old Apple

    So, with the exception of countries near the equator, your iThing warranty is void in winter.

    Just cos you claim your house was 20degC won't presumably wash, either.

    Presumably this user walked from house to car, defrosted car while waiting in house then went back to toasty car. I mean, you would, right? I doubt her pocket was sub-zero, either, humans being naturally around 37degC.

    It's just apple being, well... apple. i.e. 'Fuck You'

    1. Darryl


      Not TOO near the equator... Those countries may exceed 35C sometimes and void the warranty

  19. Gold Soundz

    Val Thorens

    I was in the French alps over xmas, at it's coldest it went down to -22 and my iPhone 4 was absolutely fine, I was (perhaps irresponsibly) snowboarding while holding the camera filming in HD. It also got pretty damp too.

    On a side note, while a little worse for wear, I once dropped my iPhone 3GS in a puddle. It lay completely submerged underwater, with the screen still lit up. I fished it out and wiped it on my jeans. No problems whatsoever!

    The iPhone's I've had have been by far the toughest phones I've owned for this sort of thing.

    1. ElReg!comments!Pierre

      That may be so...

      ... but chances are that your humidity detector registered that, and whenever the thing fails, for whatever reason, you'll feel sorry.

  20. P Zero


    Why doesn't Apple make new iPhones for different regions? Maybe add a qwerty keyboard for those who need one. Micro USB so that it can be charged with a standard charger. As a Micro SD slot for expansion. And of course, maybe tone down their grips on the app store so people can have some more variety in what they download.

    I think that would be ace.

    1. Charles 9

      One Phone To Rule Them All

      A One-Size-Fits-All design is a lot easier to send down an assembly line in quantity and quicker to get to market, wherever that market may be.

    2. Rattus Rattus

      To judge from your requests

      it sounds like you want an Android phone.

  21. Anonymous Coward

    Bad Apple....

    Another reason to jump off the Apple bandwagon....

    I've had a 3GS for about 18months and considered of upgrading to an iPhone4. When my contract is up, I'm moving as far from Apple as poss.

    My phone currently reboots itself whenever it feels like - usually when I'm on a call!! O2 told me that as it is over 1yr, I will have to pay to have it repaired, even though I have a 2yr contract - thanks Apple!!! I might just argue that my contract is with O2 and not with Apple!!!

    1. durandal

      re: Bad apple

      @AC, your contract *is* with O2. It's up to them to make things right.

    2. Slipgate

      1 year warranty illegal...

      Since 2002, an EU directive came into force that means you have a 2 year warranty.

      "So from what I understand, if something breaks within 2 years and the retailer or manufacturer claim that there is only a 1 year warranty, you just need to quote Article 5 of the EU Product Warranty Directive (1999):"

      There is also the Sales of Goods act, but it's a little vague to quote since reasonable use could be 5 years, and what defines reasonable.

      Are you near an Apple shop? I've always had great service when going in. I broke my 3GS on New Years day, went to the Apple shop to see how much to repair. Even though my phone was out of warranty (only a week though), as a goodwill gesture they replaced it for free :-)

  22. Anonymous Coward


    All I can say is that I have taken my iPod Touch from a home around +16C, out to a car of around -9C, warmed up the car to around +5C and used it to play music for a couple of hours on journeys. I have on two occasions I can recall ,left the iPod Touch in the car overnight, dropping to around -4C, gone out when the temperature reached +2C and switched it on and driven to places. Each time the iPod felt "cold and clammy" but each time it has worked flawlessly

    Sounds like she might have had in -12C then got it stuck in front of the warm blowers subjecting it to a very rapid heat rise. I am not sticking up for Apple as I know they can be complete scumbags when it suits them to stick by the rules, but there are some details missing from all this that don't add up.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Jobs Horns

    Shoddy Merchandise

    The answer is simple, stop following techno-fashion and dump that Apple crud into the waste bin

  24. Sandy Ritchie


    I thought this was a story about 1 phone which failed in Norway, and that it was potentially down to the cold, although quite why the phone would be so far below zero doesn't make entire sence. I keep my phone in my pocket, which keeps it above freezing, in a handbag it would still likely be above freezing.

    But from some of the posts on here you'd think every phone in Norway had broke.

  25. dr_forrester


    ...your device is not specced to operate in the temperature range an area frequently inhabits, don't sell it there. sell me a device in a given geographic area, I'm going to assume it can operate in the conditions one normally expects to find there.

    Apple fails. Again.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Thumb Down


      " sell me a device in a given geographic area, I'm going to assume..."

      Whilst I sympathise with the customer mentioned in the article, I can't sympathise with this statement.

      You know what the bofh says:

      "Assume makes an ASS out of U"

      1. dr_forrester

        @ AC 16:18

        This assumption, the law requires that I be able to make. It's called fitness for market.

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Apple customer support has lost its way

    You would have thought that Apple of all people would like to keep its customers loyal and happy. But now they have gotten sooo big, perhaps its customer support have forgotten the old days when every mac user was important.

    Apple. Sorry you've turned so sour. you used to be so sweet!

    1. Gavin King

      Gone Rotten, maybe?

      Gettit, rotten, apple, rotten apple?

      The one with the pear in the pocket, ta.

  27. JaitcH
    Jobs Horns

    Apple warranties are like Allstate - The Good Hands People - Rarely On Your Side

    Apple is always cheating someone of their warranties, just like the reputation of Allstate, whose adverts show a pair cupped hands purportedly to save you but as the late Allan King demonstrated, the 'safe' hands evaporated when an insured submitted a claim.

    Apple has demanded non-disclosure agreements of claimants, denied there are battery problems (except in Japan when the government knocked on Apples door), refused to repair equipment subjected to smoking environments, etc., etc.

    In two words, Apple is a "fraud artist".

  28. Wang N Staines

    It's her fault

    Where does it say in the manual that she can use it in a car?

    Silly woman...

  29. greenmoose
    Thumb Down

    Surely not!

    I saw -13.5 outside my house in a village nr hull... i had cause to use my phone for a 3 minute call and 2 text messages and was out in the weather for about 45 minutes... miraculously my bricklike Nokia N900 survived fine. Can see the advantages in building a phone in Finland over Cupertino, California... -12 doesnt seem that cold tho, do iphones routinely fail at this temperature??

  30. Eradicate all BB entrants

    Which begs the question.......

    .....of why Apple submitted a patent for a pair of winter gloves with little rubber caps so you could use their touch devices in cold weather?

  31. david wilson


    This is the same Iphone for which Apple happily approves all kinds of Skiing apps?

  32. patrick_bateman
    Jobs Halo

    normal apple isuer

    Something has gone wrong, it cant be my fault!

    Electrics do work 'better' at lower temps (to an extent) its the moisture/condensation.... that buggers things

    1. Anonymous Coward

      It will be cheap components

      It will be cheap components and that includes the PCB.

      Yes, some electronics do work better if you cool them a little, but other work better when warmer.

      Condensation may well have had a significant part to play also.

      My hardware boots up at -60C, or +90, at 100% humidity, and in balistic shock situations.

      Many of the chips (processors and GPUs for instance) are only available in commercial temperature ranges, but buy good quality components, treat them properly, design using good quality PCB's, and a number of other techniques which I had better not discuss, and these temperature ranges are just about possible. (-40 to +80 is easy!)

      [There's no better demonstration to a customer than taking a board, encased in a block of ice out of an industrial freezer, powering it on, and knocking the ice off with a hammer while it is running a complex graphics simulation!]

      AC because unlike Lewis Page, I know that DARPA are not all mad.

  33. Is it me?

    Merchantable Quality or Something Like that.

    If you sell a phone in a country where the temperature regularly drops below 0 during winter, as a consumer you would expect the product to function in normal weather conditions.

    Sounds like Lenin Kristin Løvvik should check on iPhone failures in Canada, Northern US States, Finland, Sweden, Iceland etc.

    And should also go for the people who sold it to her, because, one assumes they were in Norway, and should understand the Norwegian climate.

    The idea of a mobile phone is that it is mobile, and pretty much any time any place any where.

  34. Ed Cooper

    Moisture damage

    The poor thing died form excessive condensation build up which I'm pretty sure is going to be a problem with any phone, though I guess more so ones made out of alu and glass. The problem is Apple's attitude to water damage, but it's hard to suggest they should toe the opposite line and fix every phone that's water damaged for free.

  35. shooi

    "...while the Sony Ericsson X10 reckons it's tough enough to play Angry Birds at -10 at least..."

    ...but never on anything above Android 2.1 'cos SE have a new phone out to focus on so forget about all the X10 owners...

    OK, off topic, I'll leave...mine's the one with the 10 month old £500 handset that SE have given up on in the pocket...

    1. Martin Nelson

      You forgot to add...

      which you can't change for another 14 months because of the stupidity of 12-month contracts!

  36. TeeCee Gold badge

    Works the other way too.

    A few years back I got into my car in 40+ degree heat. I started the car and the climate control went into "arctic gale with knobs on" mode.

    I turned on my HP SmartPhone and the LCD panel expired on the spot as the freezing draught played over it.

    On the bright side a fleaBay vendor in HK sent me a new screen assembly for ten quid. It didn't serve to stop me feeling like a complete, prize pillock for being so damned stupid in the first place though......

  37. Anonymous Coward

    Lipo instability

    The restrictions are there for a good reason.

    Charging Li-Ion and Li-Po cells at or below 0 celsius can cause plating out of lithium metal in an unpredictable way which can cause the cell to become dangerously unstable.

    Interestingly, LiFePO4 (the genuine A123 cells not the D**lx*reme garbage) can tolerate charging down to -10 or so and normally don't suffer any damage.

    the chemistry is also far more tolerant of overheating and even a worst case punctured cell will not cause a flame-out event.

    AC, because for some reason future employers might check El Reg...

  38. AndyH
    Thumb Up

    Car Temperature

    Its not uncommon for those is cooler climates to plug their car's in to over night heaters to keep them warm for the morning....

    1. dr_forrester

      Not quite...

      The block heaters to which you refer keeps the oil's viscosity from dropping too far for the starter motor to turn the crankshaft. It has nothing whatsoever to do with either the internal temperature of the vehicle or of the under-hood electronics.

      Now, we'll often go out and start our cars (or use the remote start, which we had decades before they became fashionable in warmer climes) so the coolant-and therefore cabin heating-can warm up, but that's a different concern.

      1. KjetilS

        Re: Not quite...

        We often have heaters inside the car connected to the same power source as the block heater, so the car will be warm and ice free in the morning when we go off to work.

  39. Nader

    It EXPLODED!!!

    Just so that's clear!

  40. Baudwalk

    Apples don't like to get wet

    My iPod mini has never worked properly in even slightly damp environments.

    An my iPod Shuffle crapped out completely, and never recovered, the first time it got wet. Not submerged in water, just lying in my pocket during a mild shower.

    Perhaps I've just been unlucky, but my two latest Nokias (6131 and 5230), cheap looking plastic things they are, have routinely gotten drenched and have never stopped working.

    Rain coat, please.

  41. Dick_Deleq

    Concept of condensation is....

    Condensation forms on things colder than the environment. You take the iphone from ur house and it's warmer than the car in winter, so why would frozen air condense on it?. And who would leave their iphone in the car?

  42. Grease Monkey Silver badge

    Why repair it...

    .... if it just works?

  43. Anonymous Coward
    Jobs Horns

    Mine and Mine

    Apple operates only in two worlds.....Theirs and Theirs.

  44. Jemma

    ... revenge is a dish best served cold...

    And its very cold in Jobs!


    Fashion led gullibility - £750

    Getting shafted on the warranty - Priceless...


    “With the new eyePhone, you can watch, listen, ignore your friends, stalk your ex, download porno on a crowded bus, even check your email while getting hit by a train. All with the new eyePhone. From Mom...”

    Should I go on?

  45. Andrew Jones 2

    Makes you wonder....

    It does make you wonder -

    Someone suggested 0-35 is the normal operating range of solid state electronics.......

    Does this mean we should not attempt to use our car radio when the ambient temperature drops below freezing?

    What about the car clock which switches on automatically anyway?

    The exterior temperature display?

    Are these not all solid state electronics that we quite rightly expect will continue to work just fine after the car has been subjected to stupidly low temperatures?

    I know in our case a 2 litre bottle of water and 2 bottles of fanta have regularly froze solid in our car since November......

    but the computer that runs the car, the clock, the radio, the entire digital dashboard, the window switches, the immobiliser, the GPS tracking unit under the bonnet and all the relays that control switching the interior lighting on and off when doors open and close has continue to operate as expected even down to -15.4'C

    We do not expect ANY PART of our car to go wrong because it got a bit too cold for it - as has been pointed out above - surely it is not a unreasonable expectation that our phones should continue to operate in an outdoor environment with both the temperature and humidity ranges that any outdoor environment can bring?

    I feel it must also be pointed out that any electronic device that is powered on is generating it's own source of heat particularly so if that electronic device is transmitting radio waves!

    We have an outdoor Panasonic network camera that is part of the BordersWeather website which has been outside since 2006, I have not checked the manual to see what the specifications are for it's operating variables - but I rightly assumed that as an outdoor camera being sold in the UK it should both work under normal conditions and have a tolerance for the slightly more extreme weather conditions it may have to deal with - the camera is still continuing to operate and the motor that enables the pan and tilt is still working - and worked perfectly even when it was -15.4'C outside.

    1. Walt French

      In YOUR world, devices have limits and users can't be clueless

      Every device any more is designed to work within a prescribed environment.

      Fr'instance the Nokia N8, surely intended to be used in the cold. Its User Manual directs, “always keep the battery between 15°C and 25°C.” Use the phone much without a battery? Obviously, this is a much tighter restriction than Apple applied. Some devices will be more tolerant, others less.

      BUT ALL REAL-WORLD DEVICES HAVE LIMITS! Even if they're buried in the fine print. (Apple's are right on the specs page.)

      Nokia's user information unhelpfully applies other warnings. “Do not use or store the device in dusty or dirty areas…Do not store the device in high temperatures. …Do not store the device in cold temperatures.” How dirty is bad? Obviously, “too” dirty.

      My point is not to bash Nokia, nor specifically exonerate Apple. I point out that we live in a real world, where compromises must be made. Users who want to work in extreme environments must expect to pay extra for the more stringent engineering costs. Maybe, these are easy and a simple 5% cost premium results. But for some items, say, batteries, no amount of clever engineering will ensure they'll work after being left outdoors for a week in Antarctica.

      And that means, the user will have to RTFM!

      1. David Beck

        From the Nokia Support Site

        What is the operating temperature range of my Nokia device?

        Nokia devices are designed to meet all the relevant quality and other standards, and the standard GSM specification requirements for your device's operating temperature are -10 to +55 degrees Celcius.

        The device is not water-resistant and must be kept dry.

    2. Marcus Aurelius
      Big Brother

      .Outdoor camera

      I'm willing to bet that your camera is in a weatherproof casing, and being on all the time, is able to keep the ambient temp in that shell to substantially above -15C.....

  46. Anonymous Coward

    There is no such thing as "centigrade"...

    ...even if US pilots are using it all the time. It's degrees Celsius and nothing else.

    If you want to improve your education system, start doing it now.

    1. Walt French

      GET IT RIGHT!!!

      It's “U. S.” and not “US.”

      Oh, it's OK to use either the earlier or a newer form? Take a look at a dictionary and see that “centigrade” was the universally-accepted form before honoring Celsius in 1948, and the likelihood of any listener being confused hearing “centigrade” approaches zero.

      I might even wager that more people around the world recognize the association for “Fahrenheit” than “Celsius,” since most people only hear “degrees” unless we Americans have to be specific.

      1. Sarah Bee (Written by Reg staff)

        Re: GET IT RIGHT!!!

        We use 'US' as it looks neater.

        Stop SHOUTING. Let it GO.

    2. Mexflyboy

      Do your research, dork!

      According to Wikipedia, there IS/was such a thing as Centigrade, see the following article (section Centigrade and Celsius), and footnotes 7 & 8:

      If you're gonna diss an educational system, do your "due diligence" first, jackass...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward


        IIRC Celsius invented a scale that had ice melting at 100 degrees and water boiling at zero degrees. Centigrade was a scale that reversed that so that higher numbers meant warmer termperatures. Centigrade and Celsius are now interchangeable in common use.

        There is only one sensible measure of temperature which is degrees Kelvin. Using a scale based on the properties of pure water is only really of any specific use when you are dealing with water.

  47. thecakeis(not)alie

    HTC Desire

    It was -25c out last night, and I was yakking away on my HTC Desire whilst I remoted into my home VM to get some info. (An activity that curiously noms more CPU and battery than Angry Birds.) Worked just fine. Not a single problem. Fiancee's Desire was giving her no problems the other day in -35c.

    Cheap construction, Apple. Cheap construction.

  48. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Yeah, it's all Apple's fault

    Oh wait, my iPhone worked fine in December while switching between warm restaurants and the car with internal temps of -7 deg C - maybe they do work below zero after all.

    Yes, I do know that -20 is lower than -7, before some tiresome little twat points it out for me.

    1. Anonymous Coward


      -7 < -20

      Just thought I'd point that out for you. Bravo old chap.

  49. Wile E. Veteran

    Cars in the cold

    The American auto companies routinely send their pre-production vehicles to places like Northern Michigan, Bemidji, Minnesota, Fargo North Dakota etc. for cold-weather performance testing. Damn things better be reliable at -30C or more or some engineers get their heads handed to them on a platter.

    They also test their cars in Arizona during the summer, sometimes with airflow to the radiator blocked. Run a test cycle, sit in the shade, lather, rinse, repeat for a week.

    It's -4C here in Detroit right now, for crying out loud.

  50. JanMeijer

    not frozen but exploding glass on backside

    I went to the original TV2 article (Norwegian) that Bergens Tidene used and there it was mentioned that the iPhone "exploded". Well, it didn't actually explode, the glass backside cracked with a "bang" sound. The user said "Jeg stod i et lyskryss, så smalt det. Jeg var på vei til å kjøre inn til siden for å sjekke om det var noe i bilen som eksploderte. Jeg hørte ikke noe mer, så kjørte videre. " which is roughly "I stood still at some traffic light and I heard a loud 'bang'. I was about to pull over to check whether it was something in my car that exploded but didn't hear anything more so drove on". Can't have been such a loud bang then.

    There is a nice picture of the resulting damage here:

    Now, this cracking glass is something different then the device just freezing. I am pretty sure that EU consumer protection directives (yes, they *are* implemented in Norway) not to mention Norwegian ones will say something about devices not just splintering into pieces when temperatures fluctuate a bit. My car windows certainly don't.

    With regards to cars being cold or warm when you enter them, there are various ways to achieve your car being nice and warm when you enter it, even when it is -20 outside. The articles do not have enough information to see how cold or warm the car was when the user actually entered it.

  51. Walt French

    BRAVO for El Reg

    It takes a certain genius to pretend to be a tech-oriented web site, and report stories the way you'd expect in a cheap tabloid for near-illiterates.

    Here, the Register has cleverly refused to discuss the actual problem in technical terms. Was the battery dead? Motherboard capacitors blown? Circuit traces cracked from parts' warming and expanding other, still-ultra-cold parts?

    Naw, actually "reporting" such technical facts might stifle the creativity of those who know it's because Apple HATES satisfied customers, or who otherwise want to promote nonsense.

    In particular, while condensation MIGHT indeed have been the problem, that would NOT prevent Apple from honoring a warranty. Condensation is actually MORE likely if you were to take the phone out of a very cold storage and operate it in a warm, slightly humid area. That obviously does not violate the prohibition against USING it in too-cold temps, but such logic is eschewed in the interest of a "lively" (i.e., totally information-free) discussion.

    How serendipitous that acting like a dolt draws trash!

    1. Anonymous Coward

      (Hands Walt a cloth)

      Hey "Disney" .. you got a bit of froth coming out your mouth there...

  52. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cold climates

    If Apple isn't going to warranty their products where it gets cold, then they should quit selling them there.

  53. Anonymous Coward

    If the ram memory timings are mismatched with the CPU

    If the ram memory timings are mismatched with the CPU cold temps can cause memory read write problems and cause a crash.

    More testing in industrial ovens Apple!

    Also some screen tech gets slow at cold temperatures.

    Apples don’t taste so good now?

  54. 808

    Android advert

    Lost my HTC desire in a snow drift for 5 hours with air at -14c. Phoned my number, saw green glow in the snow, dug it out - all working fine (except the app store which was still crap...)

  55. sharan

    Then -- Apple should not sell what it cannot support!

    in a simple view - then Apple Inc. should not sell products in areas where the specs can be compromised w/o any action on the user part! Or make a better product which will holdup!

  56. Patrick R

    My phone is just a phone, but it still works.

    My old Samsung D900 dropped from my pocket when I fell in the snow 2 weeks ago. It was snowing a lot and it spent the whole night in the snow on the pavement at about 4 below zero, battery almost dead. Still twelve hours later, when the snow melted, it was still on. Someone found it and rang the last dialed number. I got her a bottle of wine. Happy new year.

  57. Michael M

    It takes a 100 comments before...

    somebody notes that it was only the back panel that shattered. Did it even stop working? Apple would have to honour any broken glass scenario if it let this one pass. Have there been any more instances of the glass 'spontaneously' shattering?

    Kudos to El Reg for milking this

    I thought there was something suspicious about this story. In 4 years I'm sure we would have heard more about any failure iphone's cold weather performance.

    1. JanMeijer

      it was still usable

      Ah, my apologies. The source article actually mentioned that "Leni" (iPhone user) said she could use it but that because of that use the cracking had increased. It actually took *me* quite a while to read through all the comments to make sure no-one had already stated the obvious ;)

  58. james 68


    -12? try -20, Northern Ireland IS still part of the UK you know, much as you mainland crowd try and ignore us when your not overcharging us for stuff

  59. David Beck

    From the Nokia Support Site

    What is the operating temperature range of my Nokia device?

    Nokia devices are designed to meet all the relevant quality and other standards, and the standard GSM specification requirements for your device's operating temperature are -10 to +55 degrees Celcius.

    The device is not water-resistant and must be kept dry.


    Who goes gloveless at 0C, much less -10? Wouldn't that make the iPhone a useless brick anyway?

    1. KjetilS

      Re: From the Nokia Support Site

      "Who goes gloveless at 0C, much less -10?"

      Most people I know? -10 really isn't that cold up here :)

      The official norwegian temperature scale:

      +15°C This is as warm as it gets in Norway, so we'll start here. People in Spain wear winter-coats and gloves. The Norwegians are out in the sun, getting a tan.

      +10°C The French are trying in vain to start their central heating. The Norwegians plant flowers in their gardens.

      +5°C Italian cars won't start. The Norwegians are cruising in cabriolets.

      0°C Distilled water freezes. The water in the Oslo Fjord gets a little thicker.

      -5°C People in California almost freeze to death. The Norwegians have their final barbecue before winter.

      -10°C The Brits start the heat in their houses. The Norwegians start using long sleeves.

      -20°C The Aussies flee from Mallorca. The Norwegians end their Midsummer celebrations. Autumn is here.

      -30°C People in Greece die from the cold and disappear from the face of the earth.

      The Norwegians start drying their laundry indoors.

      -40°C Paris start cracking in the cold. The Norwegians stand in line at the hotdog stands.

      -50°C Polar bears start evacuating the North Pole. The Norwegian army postpones their winter survival training awaiting real winter weather.

      -70°C The false Santa moves south. The Norwegian army goes out on winter survival training.

      -183°C Microbes in food don't survive. The Norwegian cows complain that the farmers' hands are cold.

      -273°C ALL atom-based movement halts. The Norwegians start saying "Faen, det er kaldt i dag! (Damn, it's cold outside today!)"

      -300°C Hell freezes over, Norway wins the Eurovision Song Contest.

  60. mhenriday

    How does Apple get away with treating its customers

    with such incredible arrogance - must one have documented masochistic tendencies to be eligible to purchase one of the firm's products ? A certificate in triplicate from one's psychiatrist ?...


  61. Dark_rain


    Apple treating their customers like shit? Move along folks, nothing new to see here.

  62. Harry

    @Grease Monkey

    "otherwise the courier will accept no responsibility for any damage"

    Couriers will usually not accept responsibility for damage unless the damage is visible **before** unpacking. So there's no point in unpacking an item in the presence of the courier, unless it is clear from the *external* packaging that the item has been mishandled.

    If the contents are broken but the external packaging is intact, that's a packaging fault and packaging is the responsibility of the sender, not the courier. Package testing (which I used to supervise, many years ago) typically requires the contents of the package to withstand being dropped from a height of 3 feet on all six faces and sometimes on all edges and corners too.

    You should certainly ensure the recipient checks for visible external damage and logs it before signing, but there's no point insisting on unpacking an *undamaged* parcel.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      You'd think..

      But I've dealt wth several couriers who have tried to wriggle out of admitting responsibility for damaged goods because the goods had not been checked before signing. Including in one case a courier who wouldn't let the goods inward guy open the box until he'd signed for it. He signed then opened the box to find broken glass in a scanner. The courier tried to deny liability because the parcel had been signed for which meant (they claimed) that the goods had been accepted.

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