Gov gone wild: Mad new pub glasses, bread freedom introduced Science minister David Willetts has launched a vicious January attack on the honest British pint in favour of Australian "schooners" and Continental micro-measures of wine. Under cover of claims to reduce red tape, Willetts will end rules restricting pubs to selling beer in pints and half pints to allow them to sell "schooners …
"The Science Minster also promised to overhaul pesky restrictions on bread sizes, which have apparently bedevilled bakers across the land."
If someone can force bakers and toaster makers to get together and decide what size a slice of bread should be then they deserve a fucking nighthood.
Anyone that eats toast should know what I mean.
Be a man and slice your own bread, and slice it properly! I've only ever seen "Doorstep" slices on one loaf so far, and they were only around 1/2".
If I can still fit the thing in my mouth, the bread isn't sliced thickly enough! "Wafer thin" toasty rubbish is pointless.
By the way, typically the own-brand cheap bread fits the toaster just fine. Give it a go; You're burning it anyway.
"If someone can force bakers and toaster makers to get together and decide what size a slice of bread should be then they deserve a fucking nighthood."
And if someone could force those said bakers to justify putting half a bloody gramme of bloody salt in every last bloody slice, I'd pin a medal on them myself.
"Oh, it's a preservative, it's to make the bread last longer."
Hmmm.
/looks at packaging:
"Use By Tomorrow."
Not overly convinced, personally...
Its part of the chemical processo of breadmaking. Its used to kill the yeast once rising is complete. By changing the amount you can control the rising process. By putting lots in you can kill it quickly and use more yeast. This gives you a quicker production process and consistent rise.
I bake my own bread, and it has about half a gram in the whole loaf.
Get a bread machine, youll never look back.
I think they should forget all this fancy stuff, and bring back good old fashioned British pint glasses, big, solid, dimpled and with a handle.
I can't see anyone ordering a schooner of beer unless they mistake it for some sort of pitcher. It's ingrained in us, you order beer by the pint, with an occasional half for the ladies.
Tankards will never return due to food hygiene laws - you're not allowed to re-use glasses without washing them.
I'm not sure I want to drink out a pewter tankard, and the glass ones are even more uncomfortable than the old handled pint glasses. There are a few pubs that you can get handled pint glasses in, but stock is usually limited and they're not offered to anyone that looks like they might cause trouble
That's actually the traditional beer glass, dimples arrived in 1948. 10 Sided glasses were the original jugs, but only form the 1920's, before that it was pewter.
But each to their own.
Standard sizes are designed to protect us drinkers from short measures, which is why pub glasses are stamped or have measure lines, is Willets doing away with those as well, so we actually never know how much is in a glass.
Amen to that (standard sizes of pint and half for the ladies). Australia does not even have a standard size for a schooner - it varies by state. I've even been served a different sized schooner in the same pub depending on whether thee is frequenting the public bar or the other one - a legacy sized one I believe. For some beers you get a "glass" - I mean WTF kind of measure is that? It costs the same or sometimes more than a schooner too. I been served a draught beer in the following sized glasses that I can remember - 285ml (half), 330ml, 385ml, 425ml, 570ml (pint). It's shit and it leads to customers getting f*cked over. Willets is obviously a prick.
What the COI paper actually says it that it is trying to remove artificial restrictions on the quantities that booze and bread must be sold in. There is no suggestion that I see that the government is trying to force anybody to actually offer for sale booze in the "new" amounts. The market, as always, will decide and I doubt I will see anybody drinking schooners in my pub. Nor thimbles of wine or port. When the government is removing restrictions we should applaud; equally if they proposed to make a certain size of glass mandatory we should protest. And if they try to make Aussie beer compulsory.........
It is more complicated, I can see the government putting 3p on a pint, but it would only be 2p on a schooner, so that’s not so bad is it. The 20p on a bottle of wine would only be 2p a glass as well, so stop fretting over government fuelled inflation.
The law changes will be followed by a campaign to drink the smaller measures on offer, the pubs will charge more for the smaller measures, everyone will drink as much as before, more profits, more duty collected and government and pubs being seen to tackle excessive drinking.
Been around too long, so cynicism comes too easily.
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tired of being forced to drink metric beer here in France. It's depressing to count the shrapnel left in my pocket and automatically calculate that I drank 3.5 l of beer last night. I'd much rather leave it to a vague, foggy "few pints".
n.b. although I also miss good old canadian pitchers (60 uk oz, or three pints)
The whole REASON of standardizing on the pint and half pint was so that consumers ALWAYS knew what they would be getting as a measure. And prices standardised based upon those amounts, and price comparisons are EASY because of those standardised amounts.
This will, frankly, end up costing all of us money in the pub. You will order a beer, and shock - you will get a schooner, but it will cost as much as the old pint. The pint WILL still be available, but at a slightly higher price. This won't happen all at once, and it won't happen everywhere - but happen it will, and we consumers will gradually "get used to it".
"Rip-Off England" continues...
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IANAL (I am not a landlord) but this does probably mean that every pub cash till in the country will have to be replaced, with ones that have options of 'pint', 'half-pint' and 'somewhere-in-between', at a stonking great cost.
The board of National Cash Registers are probably drinking to this already.
My local still has an old fashioned till where the bar staff put in an amount for each drink and it adds them up, just like they did in the eighties when I worked behind a bar. The stock control is handled by the cellar man. Given the rotation of guest beers (draught and bottled) stock control on the tills would be a nightmare.
I think they only 'pubs' that will care are those that charge 4 quid for a pint of fizzy piss (if you can even get a glass, rather than a 330ml bottle for the same price). These places will now take the opportunity to sell a 'schooner' for 4 quid. Proper pubs, selling proper beer will continue to do so in proper measures at proper prices (some can even still manage it in proper glasses with dimples and handles).
Wikipedia tells me that an Australian Schooner is mostly 3/4 pint, but in some places it's 1/2 pint (or, historically less). If true, it would seem nonsensical to use that word to mean 2/3 pint. Especially when your classic convex sherry glass is already called a schooner.
Meanwhile, as it's already allowed to sell 1/3 pint measures of hearty ale, it seems sensible that you should be able to sell 2/3 pint in one glass. (Provided it's lined and you actually get the volume you pay for...)
P.S. I will never buy cold flavourless lager - whatever the size of the glass.
....is referred to as a "nip". It's the size of bottle used for selling barley wine (very strong sweet beer) like Marstons Owd Rodger or similar. The idea was that most people would find it difficult to drink a full pint of the stuff, both due to the sweetness and also the sledgehammer effect of the alcohol content.
I once accidentally brewed something like this for a party, due to an error involved teaspoons vs tablespoons when adding sugar to the mash. My memory of actually drinking the stuff is now somewhat absent for reasons I can't remember....
The glass in Australia is not typically the pint it is the schooner (or pot when you wander into the more redneck/good old boy areas). The pint is becoming more popular but the schooner is definitely more common. Go to Queensland and see how many joints sell pints - only really the English/Irish themed bars.
Typically...
No, a schooner is mostly sold with it's FROSTY COLD contents inside.
Empty "schooners" may be requested, these are usually accompanied by a jug of beer, at 1140ml, it's just over the litre.
It may be considered good form to "shout" a jug between 2 people...
As for "cold but flavourless lager", hah!
The author got the "cold" bit right anyway.
Beer glasses in Aus are kept in a chiller and must be frosty cold upon filling with amber ale.
To do less would be uncivilised.
Good as far as it goes, but to suggest the only good beer is live beer is a complete nonsense. They really need to change their name an modernise. Also anybody who reads Pete Brown will know CAMRA have ended up looking pretty silly since it turns out that proper IPA was very definitely not a live beer in direct contradiction of what CAMRA have been claiming for years.
Back in the day CAMRA were formed they served a purpose. Live beers were disappearing from our pubs and being replaced with horrible fizzy keg. There are however plenty of decent beers out there that are not "live" but CAMRA are stuck in a rut of wanting live beer served manually by hand pumps and do not seem able to accept that other beers can taste nice.
Also I never liked their use of the word Ale either. Ale is distinct from lager but there are plenty of good quality lagers out there. Yes I know most British drinkers think that "lager" means piss like Heiniken or Stella, but that's not proper lager any more that John Smiths Smoothflow is proper "ale".
I like beer. I like different beers. I like micro-brewery local beer.
If this enables a tasting menu of 6, 10, whatever, smaller measures without leaving the pub and walking straight into a lamppost then I'm all for it.
As for price sensitivity - I'm astonished how price insensitive drinkers are. Take any bottled beer also sold on tap: 175ml Bottle £3, Pint £3.50. Do people think (if at all) that they are brewed in different places? If so someone needs to organise day trips to Interbrew.
Mine's the one next to the one with the CAMRA guide.
Beer should be subject to the same price controls as the foodstuffs and drinks sold in your supermarket. You know the price on the shelf that shows the price per kg or litre as well as the unit price? Imagine if the prices were clearly displauyed at the bar per litre as well as per bottle - I think that might harm the sales of some bottled beers quite badly.
This is great news. I love real ale and often fancy nipping in for a swift half during the day. Much as I envy the denizens who quaff away from opening time on, I find a pint of 4.8 proof does not improve my productivity.
A half pint would be perfect but I refuse to drink fine ale out of these poxy straight sided lemonade glasses they use instead of the half pint tankards and tulips of yore.
A schooner (Oz style) is a step in the right direction. We don't have to drink their pissy lager out of it.
"... I find a pint of 4.8 proof ..."
<rant>
It really gets my goat when people mix up "degrees proof" and "percent alcohol by volume". A drink of 4.8 _degrees_ proof ~= 2.7 %ABV, much the strength of said Antipodean lager. Anyone who says "percent proof" is making no sense and sounds like a fool.
We've not used degrees proof in this country for years, and according to that book of ultimate truths, Wikipedia, has something to do with the combustion of gunpowder.
</rant>
I'm sure I recall a lager called Piss that was quite nice. Like most countries there are beers in Aus that are nice, but they are not the big brewery mass produced beers. There's very little in the main stream in the UK that's particularly pleasant. Even some of the "craft" brands have been taken over by the big breweries and gradually declined in quality. Then there's what happened to the quality brands from the big breweries. I don't even want to think about who owns White Shield these days. And we all know what happened to Bass, once the biggest brand in the world and now it doesn't really exist any more.
Where in Aus do you live? There are plenty of websites out there that can recommend good brands in your area.
...but they seem to be invisible in the local pubs. To be fair, I don't drink much and picking up the occasional dozen bottles of Spitfire or similar from a specialist bottlo sees me through the year. If it wasn't a six hour round trip I'd probably have a few more :)
"I like beer. I like different beers. I like micro-brewery local beer.
If this enables a tasting menu of 6, 10, whatever, smaller measures without leaving the pub and walking straight into a lamppost then I'm all for it."
I think that was exactly the rationale for introducing the 1/3rd pint measure some years ago.
Anyway, for variety perhaps they should also introduce that well known american invention of the "English pint" .... which is 20 US floz (and thus is very slightly large than a real pint!)
Australians have traditionally used different glass sizes in different states and have had the same names for different glass sizes in different states and different names for the same glass sizes in different states, so it can be a little confusing for visitors. I don't know where the author of this article got the idea that a schooner is two thirds of a pint though, as this size is unknown in Australia.
A schooner in Sydney is three quarters of a pint (originally 15 ounces, but these days rounded to 425ml as Australia uses the metric system). A schooner in South Australia is these days a half pint (10 ounces, 285ml) but used to be smaller (9 ounces, 255ml). However, what is called a pint in South Australia is three quarters of a (British) pint, and the same as a schooner in Sydney. The Sydney schooner size used to be uncommon elsewhere, but has become more available nationally in recent times, although it is still relatively rare in Melbourne and Perth. The half pint is available just about everywhere (and always has been) but under a variety of different names (middy/handle/pot/ten).
The (British) pint is not a traditional glass size in Australia, but has become more common in recent times, possibly due to the opening of theme Irish pubs. This is a bit silly - in hot weather you want to drink from smaller glasses so you are finished before the beer gets warm.
On the other hand, allowing pubs in the UK to serve in whatever glass size they like strikes me as sensible. I sometimes frequent a Portuguese place in Stockwell that serves beer in 0.2 litre and 0.4 litre sizes. They have imported the original Sagres glasses from Portugal to serve it in, and are just being culturally authentic. However, at the moment they are breaking the law. Polish places sometimes sell beer in 0.3 and 0.5 litre glasses, which are the standard sizes in Poland. Once again, why not? Many continental types care more about the beer being served in the original branded glass from the brewery. Forcing them to make glasses in non-standard sizes if they want to sell draught beer in the English market seems silly.
They got rid of all the stupid new regulations rather than old established ones we all understand... Now we can look forward to the bakers taking20 grams off the weight of a loaf every month, maintaing the same price per loaf, until a large brown is the same size as a current small one...
3/4 of a pint at least in Sinney, and a half pint is a "middie", and I think there were also 7oz measures but I can't remember what they were called, nobody drinks beer in that quantity! When I left there 25 years ago you could get pints, but they were mostly drunk by Pommy Ex-pats and a pub might only have a couple of pint glasses if any at all. Not sure about now though, I think pints are more common.
"Australia ranks fourth in world rankings for beer consumption but scores much lower on per capita alcohol consumption, which tells you all you need to know about their beer. "
And British lager? Carling. That's all I need to say. Apart from pot,.kettle and black, of course.
Depending on which state you're in (wibble) a schooner of beer is either 485ml or 425ml, the former being 0.85 of a pint and the latter 0.75.
They also have '7's <sigh> which is 0.35 of a pint, although foam and sloppy pouring usually means you only get a mouthful of gnats piss.
I can't begin to imagine the cost of changing the measures in which alcohol is served in the UK. Not just the glasses but the tills, the accounts, the menus etc etc. Of course the one thing you can absolutely guarantee is that the customer will always pay more.
Anyone remember decimalisation...?
In sensible parts of the world, beer is generally served in a glass size that suits the strength of the beer. So a weaker session beer will be served in a bigger glass than something a lot stronger. When I was in Belgium I was surpised that a round came in branded glasses of different sizes for different brands. It didn't take much intelligence to realise that the stronger beers came in smaller glasses.
In the UK however there seems to be a stigma attached to glass size. If you don't order a pint you're considered some sort of jessie. And as for breweries supplying a branded glass for their beer, that's not how the market works. The pub/bar is expected to buy the cheapest pint glasses they can lay their hands on. It is ridiculous that it doesn't matter whether the beer you're drinking is 3% ABV or 6% you are expected to quaff it from a pint glass. And a round buying culture demands that whatever you're drinking you have to drink it at the same speed. If beers were served in glasses that suited their strength this wouldn't be an issue.
One pub I was in before christmas told me their local authority had demanded all drinks were served in plastic glasses on the run up the christmas for "safety reasons". Ridiculously it seemed that this only covered pint glasses and the occasional half pint. Wine and shorts were still being served in glass. Local authorities making stupid decisions like this will restrict things even further.
"In the UK however there seems to be a stigma attached to glass size."
This is because the law mandates the volumes that alcoholic beverages can be purchased in. Pints are a reasonable amount for evening drinking, especially if you intend to shift a decent quantity of beer and your chosen hostelry is fairly busy (no point in queueing for 15 minutes and then buying something you will have drunk by time you have got back out of the queuing area).
Most pubs have only girlie half-pint glasses. It isn't the volume of beer itself that is the problem so much as looking like a big Jessie whilst drinking it. In places that serve continental beers or cater for the cafe-culture type of drinking it is easy to get a half pint in a decent glass.
It is typically lagerred up pint-drinkers that tend to glass each other, they really should restrict all glass if they are going to restrict any, but statistically you are unlikely to get glassed by a small lady drinking Chardonnay or a 15 year old drinking Pernod and black.
Queueing for 15 minutes? If you drink in town centre meat markets maybe, but I've never had to wait for more than a couple of minutes in a proper pub.
Have you noticed that bottle drinkers don't have this problem - so it's not strictly true that beer must be sold by the pint or half pint. Only draught beer has mandated sizes of 1 pint, 1/2 pint or strangely 1/3 pint. Quite why the regulations should only effect draught beer is beyond me.
As I've mentioned the European countries where I've drunk don't seem to be affected by similar silly regulations.
The important thing should be that the price per litre or whatever is clearly displayed then you know what you are getting for your money.
The Germans have different beer cultures in different parts of the country, and different beer glass sizes in different places. In some instances the pouring culture varies due to the different glass sizes. In Cologne and Dussuldorf they do have those 0.2 litre glasses, but aggressive service to go with with them. The moment you are finished, you will be brought another glass be the waiter, unless you beg him not to bring one (or put your coaster over the top of the glass). It's an easy culture in which to drink too much, actually, as there is always a full glass in front of you.
The lowly loaf of bread has significance in comparing costs of living in a diverse number of countries is usually in 400 or 800 gram sizes which has been fine for years, until some twit of a politician wants to make a name for himself.
Standards exist for good reason for decades, whereas a minister of the Crown is a passing fad.
Where I live we have a Wetherspoons pub which regularly stages beer festivals, at which one can purchase 3 different 1/3 pints for the price of one pint - which is itself very reasonable at about £1.90. All are hand-pulled and "real", including lagers and other exotic forrin types, and the bloke who runs it keeps it well enough to deserve its inclusion in the Good Beer Guide. I hate chains and pubcos, but must give credit where it's deserved - with the qualifier that ours does NOT seem to be a typical example of the 'spoons genre.
Don't see the problem with using 1/3 glasses to measure two 1/3s into a pint glass, no need for new glasses, or for unmanly use of undersized glasses. I do see the need for smaller bread, though - current bread slice sizes are usually too big to dunk in my pint, making it hard to maintain a balanced diet.
Pint because, well ...
Seem to have 2/3 ish pint sized glasses - they have less binge drinkers too - coincidence?
(saying that, they also have the large tanker glasses, and in eastern Europe, it's much cheaper.... but still).
I'd prefer to go to the pub had lunch and have 2 x 2/3 glasses than 2 pints (which is a bit much to have a proper productive afternoon) , and having 2 halves is, well, for the ladies ;)
To the commenter who mentioned bread sizes and toaster sizes - needs a knighthood !!
For the authentic stuff, you need to go to the boutique breweries.
And yes, England may have the Ashes but then again it is also where Rugby and Rugby League go for their retirement holidays after no longer cutting it souith of the equator. Oh, and about the Football World Cup...........
I'm not sure you understand where the schooner has its place. At the cricket (or any other sport where Australia is loosing) there is nothing like making a schooner snake and pretending your national team has a hope of beating a side that has skill and application. You cannot make a schooner snake out of glasses with handles.
I assume our Aussie farnarklers can still beat the pommy ones.
We don't like warm beer. Unless you consider 6 or 7 degrees to be warm. Ale is traditionally drunk warmer than lager, mostly because ale yeasts work at a higher temperature than lager yeasts. Back in the days before yeast was really understood if you brewed in summer you got ale and if you brewed in winter you got lager. This was before the days of temperature control so you drank lager colder than ale.
However it is true that as the temperature approaches 0 centigrade you lose the ability to taste the liquid you're drinking. So presumably you drink your beer so cold because that way you don't have to taste the awful slop.
That dig about aussie cricket was 'gold'. I would like to take umbrage but given how much we are being outplayed right now have to settle for having a good laugh along with you.
Oh how the world has turned when aussie cricket fans are hoping for a good few days rain to try and save a test match :D
...to top it off to drown my sorrow I have to drink beer out of smaller glasses as well!
...I'm probably not qualified to comment.
As a keen advocate of metric measures - sorry, but there it is, they just make more sense to me - I'm probably even less qualified.
But bearing those factors in mind, even I would quite happily see pubs retain the pint simply because *it's the measurement you use for buying beer*. It just is.
Also milk.
But other than that: metric, all round, definitely.
---
(* Mostly. I will have the occasional ceremonial rum. For special occasions, you understand.)
Once in the Queensland Outback we were at a little pub and I asked why the small glasses.
I was told it was so the beer wouldn't get too warm as they didn't have aircon. Whilst happy about them not having air conditioning and agreeing it did make sense perhaps it was a little mean of me to say you could always drink faster.
Funnily enough that didn't go down too well but it was 2005 during the Ashes.
Disclaimer: biased northerner
My personal glass of preference is the 1 pint tulip glass - feels nice to the hand, and delivers a nice quantity of beer.
I do not like the idea of losing the measure line - I don't trust pub chains not to short-measure me, and like the fact that trading standards enforce this. I also appreciate the pint-to-line / pint-to-top differential between (generally) northern beer (with a head) and southern beer (no head), and personally much prefer a head, but you southern weirdo's are perfectly within your rights to do it wrong <grin>.
My problem with a half-pint glass is not looking like a jessie (I gave up worrying what I looked like some time ago), but that it feels to me that halves go down too bloody quick. I'm sure I drink two halves twice as fast as it takes me to sup my pint. Maybe it's just me.
And tip of the hat to my local pub, owned by my local brewery - Ossett Brewery, served at the Tap. Carmel, you are a lovely barmaid, serving lovely, lovely Excelsior (5.2% ABV). I think I like it even more than Timothy Taylors Landlord.
...seems to be also used when it comes to drafting the limits of authorities a minister has.....since when is the size of beer and bread within the authority of Science? Or are we lacking a proper Minister for Food that we have to resort to cross-disciplin? Or is it because all our food (including 'green' and 'organic') is genetically enhanced and labratory made?
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