At the risk of a drone up the jacksie
Ha fucking ha.
WikiLeaks is hosting its cache of confidential US Statement Department cables on US-based Amazon servers, just as it did with with the classified Iraq War documents it released last month. According to NetCraft's records, the whistle-blowing website is mirroring the diplomatic cables on Amazon's US-based EC2 service and France …
"To the extent that we can find anybody who was involved in the breaking of American law and who has put at risk the assets and the people that I have described, they will be held responsible,"
What an immense load. I have just two words in response:
When TurdBlossom (a.k.a. Carl Rove) does the perp-walk, THEN we can talk about Wikileaks, OK?
So they have a lot of "secrets" that are more secret than interesting. And Assange is hunting high and low to make the most of it. And gov.us makes a good show of rising to the bait. And of course the raised, then dropped, then raised again charges of sexual assault in Sweden. And, as noted, there is better information to be had for less drama, elsewhere.
I'm hard pressed to think it's still about the secrets at all. Why is gov.us so easily rising to the bait? And why is Assange baiting them, really? I have no answers, but I do find the question intriguing.
It seems clear Assange wants to be the guy who says what we all can plainly see; the imperious have no clothes. The US gov takes this bait because they feel a need to show how big and powerful their... theatre is. Combined with the promise of a more open gubbermint we get a cloak of invisible transparency vs. a transparent visible cloak. The minimal dagger rattling is to appear as the injured party and let's face it, in the end nobody really gets hurt other than the sacrificial lambs. Don't think about it too much, it's all in fun so long as you have popcorn at hand.
For those not watching the theatre, ask yourself what's going on while the wiki-distraction plays itself out. Nobody seems to want to talk about the value of a dollar, so-so security, unemployment cutoff, the supply of distressed housing or a whole raft of other topics guaranteed to raise hackles on a Monday. No! Look over there! Secrets! OMBFD!
I agree with everything wikileaks is doing.
Yeah you can attack the guy behind it all, he looks weak and doesn't want to reveal much about his private life.
However the leaders in our military (the armchair generals) are also very weak and we know nothing about their private lives other than once they leave their posts they end up working for or advising government contractors for whom they directed contracts to while in command.
An honest 'democracy' would have nothing to hide.
Thing is we don't have an honest democracy and it's time the people see that the entire world is ran by people out of 'eam America World Police
God bless wikileaks.
That's bullshit. When you're dealing with scum, you'll always have some things to hide, at least when planning.
If some lowlife in your street were selling drugs to the kids, and all the neighbours had complained to the police, would you be happy if some arsehole like Assange called him up to warn him that the boys in blue were on their way round with a search warrant?
Would your grandparents have been happy if the newspapers had published all the plans for D-Day in late May 1944? Oh, I suppose "that's different". I've got news for you. It isn't.
Sure, the world's governments are hardly paragons of virtue, and they do things we don't like, but trashing everything they do to teach them a lesson isn't going to make things better. Unless you can provide (and I mean *provide*, not just blow hot air on ideas) a better alternative then it's just plain stupid to smash what's there already.
I wonder how many of these kiddy anarchists that are cheering wikileaks on even bothered to vote in their last elections, never mind actually considered standing as a candidate to change things. Let me guess, it's easier to just whinge "oh, all these parties are the same, there's no point in voting" while cracking open another can of Bud and laughing at embarassed politicians. Grow up.
"That's bullshit. When you're dealing with scum, you'll always have some things to hide, at least when planning."
Wagner and Ezquerra called. They'd like their fascist stereotype back.
" If some lowlife [blah de blah ...]"
" Would your grandparents have been [blah de blah ... ]"
Please point to specific examples where Wikileaks have revealed details of future operations, or take your analogies back to the shop you bought them from. They're cheap, and appear to be broken.
"Sure, the world's governments are hardly paragons of virtue, and they do things we don't like, but trashing everything they do to teach them a lesson isn't going to make things better. "
Where's this "trashing everything"? In between that and you sitting on your arse lapping it up, there's a whole spectrum of comment and action that is actually rather productive and helps the world ... progress.
"Unless you can provide (and I mean *provide*, not just blow hot air on ideas) a better alternative then it's just plain stupid to smash what's there already."
Transparent government that seeks to represent the people, not the corporations and party backers. There you go. Or is that just blowing hot air on ideas? Funny. I thought that's what Government did every time an election came round.
"I wonder how many of these kiddy anarchists that are cheering wikileaks"
Like my sixty-something father. A well-off member of the medical profession. A long-time voter. A home-owner. A believer in democracy and the rule of law. Kiddy anarachists like him? Like a bunch of us, he's just had enough with the abuse of power we witness day in day out.
"on even bothered to vote in their last elections"
Same old, same old. Voting legitimises the current rubbish. Hence politicians and their endless talk of mandates, when said mandate doesn't exist. When only person votes, we might see the end of that particularly galling lie. When their promises even vaguely match up to their practice, I might feel differently. You're just a happy mark.
"never mind actually considered standing as a candidate to change things. "
Same old, same old. We can't all be politicians, just like we can't all be CEOs. Doesn't mean we should let those who are collude for their own benefit.
You posted as AC. Not because you wanted to share some information with us that perhaps you shouldn't. That, a la wikileaks, is the only legitimate usage. Otherwise, you just want to dissociate your online self from your words. Why?
"An honest 'democracy' would have nothing to hide."
Horse-hockey. Some things are, and should be secret (as in restricted for national security), some other things are commercially confidential, and yet more things are personally private. The abuse of these by the UK government (their favourite ruse is to hide behind "commercial confidentiality") and others is a problem.
I do not think that the latest rounds of "leaks" is anything remotely surprising. It most certainly will not put lives at risk and most governments should just go "Meh". Why? because most governments should already know the content of these cables if they have been doing their fscking jobs! This all should be no surprise to them.
Whilst WikiLeaks (and others) have served democracy in the past (Iraq war revelation etc), I think fame has gone to Assange's head as the hype surrounding this latest "expose" bears little relation to its actual content.
If you are playing poker you don't show the other person your own hand. That's the way it is with secrets. Democracies that wish to survive as democracies need to keep secrets as much as any other nation.
At the same time, most of the "leaks" thus far reported are just idle chit chat. Impressions of people, rumours, gossip etc., all gathered during the usual course of business and reported back to HQ in case they mean something in the larger picture. That's the way it is with intelligence. Probably 99% of intelligence received is bullshit, but field workers report it anyway because it is their job to gather it and the job of some one else to determine if it means anything in the larger picture.
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that's the American view for you. Perhaps the US ought to stick to things they can handle internally properly first, like taxation, homelessness, immigration, prison overpopulation, drugs, guns and gun ranges (that don't allow the voluntary murder of 8 year olds, theres not many, and I know that's just a pipe dream), spam, cyber crime, and a justice system that doesn't depend on the size of your bank account (we call that corruption, in most democratic societies), the list could go on forever.
Perhaps Wikileaks is just the easy target and takes Americans away from the real world problems that exist, eg America.
Homeless people dont vote so there handling them by ignoring them or giving them Criminal records for Vagrancy so they stay unable to vote.
Taxation is doing fine, Those rich enough to get people elected are taxed less than everyone else as a quid-pro-quo.
TBH, what they really need is some Moderates. Currently there seems to be no place for moderates in US politics.
You either get hard-right conservatives like Palin or Hard left socialists like Obama, who hate each other. However, all groups seem to save their special hatred for the moderates.
Not that the US political system appears to have had much effect on what the US actually seems to do ether internally or externally.
Seriously. America hasn't seen a hard left socialist in living memory. A hard left socialist wouldn't have provided healthcare for the 20% of society that didn't have it already, they would have taken the entire private healthcare system and nationalised it (Aneurin "Nye" Bevan). A hard left socialist wouldn't be struggling to decide to let Bush's tax cuts lapse. They would go right ahead with a 98% top rate of tax (1974, UK). A hard left socialist wouldn't be worried about the car companies going under, they would just nationalise them, along with every other industry (60s and 70s, British Steel, British Gas, British Telecomm, British Petroleum, Leyland Motor Company, Rolls Royce Ltd, British Aerospace).
American's wouldn't know a socialist if it ripped off their arm and beat them with the soggy end.
Obama will be socialist the day my arse starts producing pure Chanel No. 5.
Quite. Or as we used to explain in 70s. The Republicans are most like the conservatives but to the right of Mrs Thatcher. The Democrats are most like the conservatives but to the right of Mrs Thatcher. They are so very different (NOT). This classification system broke down in the 00s since half of labour's policies were then to the right of the tories but carefully wrapped in left wing language (thus the lack of riots, etc).
I think the two American parties argue to a) make it look like they are _different_ in some mystical way (and that's without wearing a tin foil hat), and b) because (to me like the whole catholic-protestant animosity over the years) the most fearful competitor is the one most like you.
No, US Republicans are the bigest hypocrites in the world.
They demand smaller government, then when the government cuts the civilian contracts they scream like a wounded cat. What they want is unlimited defense budget so they can get even fatter than they already are.
As to social issues they are just about the same only do not mention "HOMOESEXUAL" (slang used here) to them as they will decided that since you are different you are a communist (or worse).
As to health insurance again they are afraid their private doctors will have to deal with the masses and they will not be able to get in this week or next or 3 months (in some cases like the rest of us do).
The Republicans do not want taxes for themselves but eveyone one else should pay more than they do. That is why they have so many tax loop holes builtin to the IRS code. Of course then it kills them to have to pay 100.00 to the IRS as it is helping the masses to live on unemployment. Heck they should be out collecting cans & bottles like the homeless do.
Once all the fuss dies down and you start reading some of these, they are very interesting indeed. The inner thoughts and chatter between the various government bodies. Just finished reading an article about what the dignataries thought of the situation in Zimbabwe back in 2007. Nothing shocking, Mugabe is a nutter and Morgan wotnot is committed but will ultimately fail as he is a flawed character, but some very human musings on what will happen to the people there.
Forget all the hype and crap just read some of the more personal thoughts of the cogs in the goverment machines. This stuff may be embarrassing but one thing it has brought home to me, and this is not to sympathise with the lying weasels, that they are only human and trying to do a job just like the rest of us.
I am not stupid enough to be drawn, the whole point of this chatter is for the governments to size up what is ripe for picking and what should be "stopped", but it's just interesting to see that these people think just like the rest of us when we do our jobs, it's just that they should be more aware that they are dealing with real people and real lives, this isn't a game. Sadly politics is only a game to these people, just a very big game of Risk.
I seem to remember a phrase that is often repeated: "If you have nothing to hide, you don't have anything to worry about." Well, these leaks should do one thing for us, and that is to suppress the many insane claims of conspiracies while revealing whatever conspiracies and incompetences that really exist. Perhaps with all this Daylight shining into the boxes of secret documents, we can break down the wall of secrecy that stands between the People and the government that is supposed to serve the People. Then when the government says that it needs the People to do something, the People will respond with full faith and trust in that decision to commit resources and lives to a cause that may be half a world away.
Wikileaks may be of limited use, of limited impact and suffering from a cult of personality. But every secret kept by Western governments that diverges from public policy is nothing but an abuse of power, and often - as we have seen - just a lame cover for cold-blooded murder.
Someone has to do the watching - come up with a better idea if you are so inclined.
I realize the US is embarrassed that classified information has come out, but their over-the-top public anger doesn't gel with the disclosures which read more like a diplomatic version of Heat magazine. It's mostly idle gossip, hearsay, rumours and while it may be interesting reading it's hardly resulted in any earthshattering revelations yet. The US is drawing more attention to the importance of disclosures than they probably deserve. They should let it go and conduct whatever internal reviews are necessary to detect / catch leaks before they happen in future.
Courtesy of Mr Fisk, one of the few reasons left to read the Indy :
"There's a wonderful moment in the cables when the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, explains to a US congressional delegation on 28 April last year that "a Palestinian state must be demilitarised, without control of its airspace and electro-magnetic field [sic], and without the power to enter into treaties or control its border". Well goodbye, then, to the "viable" (ergo Lord Blair of Isfahan) Palestinian state we all supposedly want. And the US Congress lads and ladies appear to have said nothing. "
So there we are, we now KNOW that Israel isn't interested in "peace" with any sort of Palestinian state. Won't stop the MSM (hello Daily Telegraph!) spinning/saturating the press with the complete opposite though.
Some of you can mock the releases as "gossip" but candid opinions from elected and appointed politicians is gold. Pure gold, because its the only way you're ever going to know what they really think.
Assange may be a bit of an oddball but who amongst us can say they wouldn't be paranoiac and a bit twitchy if we were in his position.
Its always good to see the total contempt "the great and the good" have for the average citizen exposed in all its glory. Won't make any odds though, the plebs will read what they're given.....
Is it too much to suggest that the powers that be actually prefer wikileaks to the alternatives?
Without it, some guy gets hold of some files he thinks the public should see, dumps a big zip file anonymously somewhere and it spreads from there with unredacted copies multiplying like rabbits.
With wikileaks, everyone leaves it up to them to distribute the stuff. We accept being drip fed redacted content. Governments just have to play a careful game pretending to beg and plead so we think wikileaks is on our side, while in fact they are managing the disclosure in a controlled fashion.
Don't hold your breath for wikileaks to publish a leak on how it operates itself...
@Charley 1, this is nothing like publishing the plans for D day.
You've got Clinton complaining that Wikileaks is attacking the free world and honest democracy while at the very same time trying to spy on the UN.
Just how two faced can a person be?
If diplomats worked with honestly and integrity they wouldn't have to worry. Unfortunately they don't so I think the leaks are well justified.
the only real issue is the use of a US based registrar, if your hosting is taken out you switch to other hosts, if your DNS provider is taken out you switch to another DNS provider, if your registrar takes your domain away... oh, damn
sure they have other domains, but seriously... it's like they are inviting the US government to take the domain away so they can have something else to moan about, they're certainly not doing due diligence to prevent it (i know using a foreign registrar doesn't prevent them going direct to verisign, btw afaik all domain shutdowns so far have been by going to US based registrars and getting them to do it)
wikileaks isn't about exposing corruption and such although sometimes that's an unintended side-effect, it's about creating as much drama as possible for that attention whore bloke that nobody really gives a stuff about who loves having his name plastered all over the place
DARPA was the Pentagon-funded outfit that developed the InterNet and now it's shafted by it. How glorious. How poetic.
Perhaps the Pentagon should keep a tighter rein on DARPA, who knows what other great ideas are coming.
As for those people who aren't impressed, they don't count the shareholders of Bank of America in their number. Wikileaks next announced target, Wall Street, has already taken a large chunk of worth from BoA!
Keep up the good work, Assange.
"Honest Democracies" may have something to hide, but dishonest ones deserve the light of day shown on them. The US gave up any rights to privacy when they failed to hold AT&T accountable for illegal wiretaps-- if you can't trust your country to protect your privacy, then you can't trust your country to protect your security either. Dishonest Democracies need to be rooted out like the cancerous vermin they are.
You have got to be prepared to expect that some people are going to say things you dont like. If you really believe in "freedom of speach" then you need to accept this. Mind you america does a good job of undermining the freedoms for which it was first established, i'm still surprised that americans can own firearms.
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