back to article Gosling blows lid off Jobs Java nonsense

Steve Jobs has apparently weighed into the debate over Apple's decision to deprecate Java on the Mac, and his terse explanation was promptly deprecated by Java founder James Gosling. According to, a concerned Java developer emailed the Apple cult leader on Thursday to ask about Apple's plans for the platform, and …


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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Jobs Horns

    In your face...

    So all these Mac evangelists are now eating their words... Well, I hope you didn't spend too much on your shiny toys. You have yourselves to blame, as you voted unwisely with your wallets.

    But I can't say I'm surprised. In fact, you should not be surprised if this happens for other technologies as well in the future, e.g. Mono. Apple wants to control everything.

    Some people just don't get it. Apple has become evil.

    1. ThomH

      Actually I would be quite surprised

      If Apple made Mono a standard component of the OS, taking over all responsibility for its ongoing development, then cancelled their version. Did you actually read the article? Apple hasn't banned Java from OS X, it's said it will no longer maintain its JVM and made no comment as to whether it'll release the source. There's now a substantial risk that nobody else will bother, which is why this is as newsworthy as it is.

      Really nothing to do with the way Mono works at all then. And it's very difficult to see how this could happen with any other technology in the future, since there are no other obvious candidates.

      1. Sandtitz Silver badge
        Thumb Down

        Re: ThomH

        Apple hasn't, and cannot (in the near future) ban Java from OS X, but their statement that Java-based apps cannot be sold in the App Store really is a kick in the groin area. If the App Store works as well for Apple as it did in Iphone's case, a lot of small to medium size software will move under its umbrella and the average Joe Sixpack's out there will gradually learn to install their software only thru the App Store -> no future for Java apps under OS X.

        1. ThomH


          That's not technically true; Apple have said they won't accept software that makes use of deprecated OS components for the pending Mac App Store. Apple's Java is now a deprecated component. However, in the hypothetical situation that somebody else supplies a JVM packager, you could release a suitably packaged Java app. Apple's concern (officially) is that software on the store should be able to run even if they revoke the deprecated components.

          I guess it's comparable, so see how use of the Flash packager and the equivalent array of Appcelerator, Unity and emulation-based tools are now explicitly allowed on the iPhone.

          I think I basically agree with you; my feeling is that Apple's power play is the store. That's the thing to be angry about and that's the thing on which to base anti-Apple sentiment.

          The Java deprecation is just their usual lust for throwing out parts they don't consider useful, as with the Java bindings about half a decade ago and Carbon more recently. Possibly the most interesting thing to come out of the comments, and especially the up/down votes, is how blinkered people are that they're seemingly intellectually incapable of grasping how the Java situation differs from the situation with Mono (unrelated) or even the unbundling of the Flash runtime (vaguely related, but not really).

          1. Adam T


            I hope you're right, because I read it as Apple won't allow languages on App Store that aren't kept up to date by them.

            An application may be written with up-to-date Java tomorrow, but it can become deprecated the day after. The fact that a third-party Java won't be included in standard Software Update means it's depracted in Apple's eyes regardless.

            Having been on the receiving end of some stupendously ignorant support emails with their current App Store reviewers - and bizarrely two of them will rarely say the same thing, I'd believe anything is possible.

            1. ThomH

              @Adam T

              That gets an upvote from me. I'm more than happy to condemn them for things they have actually done or are actually doing. But it's difficult to talk about that stuff when the rabid mob prefer to level any old charge they care to invent and then upvote it about 30 times.

              Of course you're absolutely right; I was imagining that someone might put a packager together that builds a JVM other than Apple's own and places it into an application bundle with the Java program you actually want to distribute, or alternatively compiles your Java program to native code. So your only OS dependencies are Cocoa, giving you no trouble from the Apple police under the current licence per my understanding.

              That is, hypothetically, if somebody were to put such a packager or compiler together (there's a Java to native compiler in the GCC chain but I'd be surprised if library support wasn't an issue) and Apple are to keep the licence consistent in this area (which they probably will, having had to about face on the iPhone language restrictions).

              I'm not saying it's not a kick in the teeth for Java developers, especially as Java was a first class citizen when OS X launched.

    2. sT0rNG b4R3 duRiD
      Jobs Horns


      "Some people just don't get it. Apple has become evil."

      Become evil? I thought Apple has been evil for at least the past 20 years... ;)

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      What a prat

      It's irrelevant whether or not Apple provide a JDK. People will just switch to OpenJDK or whatever.

      The speed and violence with which you leap on this perceived opportunity to attack Mac users is weird though. Hint of jealousy? Bitched about Macs so much that you now feel so entrenched in your opinion that you can't get one even though you really, really want one?

      Some people just don't get it. Using words like good and evil to describe capitalist companies is like using the phrase "value for money" to describe something that's as cheap as it it tacky.

      1. PoorLumpyPony

        Extremely accurate header

        For the rest of the post you made.

    4. jai

      re: In your face...

      "So all these Mac evangelists are now eating their words..."

      Not at all.

      There is a simple to solution to this: go learn Objective-C and then you can build your apps in X-code. Not that we want your crappy apps on our beloved hardware anyway so jog on you javatard!

      1. marcelo
        Big Brother

        that's the spirit!

        ...and always has been!!!

  2. blackworx


    If nothing else Jobs seems truly to believe he can win the long game and kill all the stuff he doesn't want messing up his garden, and with a bit of luck (for him) not just on his platforms.

    Personally I prefer my gardens au naturel, the type you don't get charged a gate fee to enter only to be told repeatedly and in no uncertain terms to keep your scum feet off the manicured lawns.

    Apple has become a hyper-autistic version of Microsoft, circa 2002.

  3. Mike OReilly

    Simple solution

    Just don't bother with Macs. The world can go on without Macs.

    1. Maliciously Crafted Packet

      The world can go on without Macs

      No shit man, I suppose it could. And then we could all live in JAVA Nirvana.

      Oh wait... I've just realised why it couldn't. Because without Apple and the Mac IT innovation would be dead. Or at least dead as far as OS and GUI design are concerned. Because from where Im standing I don't see any.

      All I can see is a landscape of me too and copy cat merchants far off into the horizon all the way from Windows to Android.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I feel your argument but...

        The reality of the situation is the cat is out of the bag. Any idiot with the most basic understand of gtk (or whatever else fill in the blank ) can MAKE a windows manager. If anything this nonsense of GUI patents needs to end for the WORLDS MONETARY SAKE. Did they make the mouse interface? I think XEROX did...

      2. Bod

        Apple Innovation in IT

        Lol, nearly couldn't stop laughing. There's not much Apple have "innovated" that isn't copied in some form from someone else. Meanwhile there are hundreds of thousands of things in IT that Apple has nothing to do with.

        Innovation also implies that others will adopt the idea and it becomes the new way of thinking. Steve's aim now is to make everything exclusive to Apple and reject anything that competitors may use or that doesn't fit in with an ideal. That's not innovation.

        1. zeke

          Theyve invented plenty of things..

          Oh come on now, you are being mean.

          Apple invented many things like the GUI, the mouse, the personal computer, the mp3 player, the smartphone, JavaScriptCore, Webkit and of course tablets.

          Had it not been for them, all these things wouldnt exist.


    2. Chris Parsons

      Too true

      I run an IT support business and have a couple of Macs just so that we can understand how they work. I really just don't see what the fuss is's a computer, it works. Compared to anything running Windows, it's an expensive computer. The usual retort is how unreliable Windows is...we support maybe 300 desktops, on the whole, no problem. If you want something different, and cheap, and reliable...try Linux.

    3. zeke

      The only good Mac is a Big one

      >Just don't bother with Macs. The world can go on without Macs.

      Not without Big Macs it can't.

      Apple's Mac are limited to US and somewhat in a few euro countries.

      The Big Mac is found in every country in the planet it seems.

  4. Anonymous Coward

    Raise your hands Mac owners who bought the kit only to run Java

    Go on raise them...though so minority in the masses of Mac kit owners.

    Java programmers.. not as important as they say they are in the grand scheme of things.

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      "Only to run Java?"

      Bull. That isn't any form of requirement. I can show you several thousand folk who were sold Macs because "It's the best platform to do design/photography/graphic arts of any variety on!"

      The hell of it is, there are lots of tools in these areas that rely on Java. From order entry software (such as that supplied by my company to our customers - one which is largely a standard in our industry) to various bits of image manipulation or calculation gear. I've even seem some printer driver interfaces for the larger professional inkjets rely on Java.

      Just because you didn't buy your Mac "only to run Java" doesn't mean this won't bite you in the ass. There are a lot of small and medium businesses here that will get burned. Folk without the resources to have applications they bought recoded or the knowhow to find alternatives.

      The whole thing is short-sighted and asinine. I hope Jobs twists for this.

    2. Steve Loughran

      I did for home

      I got an iMac at home so I had a unix /Java Dev system while the other family members could have a home PC, one that let me restrict the hours a day an 8 year old could use it, and which was more secure and less painful than Vista.

      Going forward: Ubuntu at home as well as at work. I'll end up being the one to add child controls to gnome.

      One user group not covered here are CS students. Java is a key language they get taught, and Jobs has just said "we dont want computing students to use our computers". I don't know if that is wise or not.

  5. stu 4
    Jobs Halo

    so ?

    java has had it's day.

    I've been in the java biz since the start. I was in the nextstep biz before that...

    java will have a place in the enterprise for some time, but it was never a big thing on the consumer device.

    Sure - it will be important to maintain a developer env for enterprise apps - but this can as easily be through vmware as native - I use my MBP every day at work with a client build on a VM.

    I don't see the problem. the ease of objective C coding via X code has really resulted in java being dead on osx for the last 5+ years. There's not COM+ or DLL hell here, and unlike .NET there was no requirement to have .NET compliant runtimes, etc, etc - for once Stevey 'I must control the world' Jobs had a point if you ask me.

    These days you'd have to be mental to write java code for windows or .net - its an enterprise only solution - the new cobol if you like.


    p.s el reg needs to update the steve icons - he's far too far in them.

    1. sT0rNG b4R3 duRiD

      "java has had it's day."

      I wouldn't be too sure about that now, to be honest.

      Granted it's google flavoured java, but java nonetheless appears to have found another niche in Android.

      I will admit, if it wasn't for Android I would never have looked at java again.

      I don't know about being mental writing java for the desktop now. Years ago, I would have totally agreed. But java has improved quite a bit since then. It's not *too* bad at present, if benchmarks are to be believed, with a good jitter, they say you'll get 'reasonble' performance. If this is mostly true, aside from its monumental memory footprint, shrug, it may be acceptable....

      We shall see.

      1. Narg

        Java is bad. always has been.

        Java is bad. period. It's had it day many many days ago. And, no Java has not improved to a point that it even comes close to more modern languages. Unless you lay off the Java pipe and look around, you just won't see anything different. And, trust me, it's different. Sooooo much different.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          So what are you going to replace it with?

          Where's your cross-platform, open, mature replacement?

          I have a Java team for cross-platform multi-threaded apps that can't go down. I'm always looking for alternatives. We've played with .NET and mono a few times. Ha. Where's this replacement you allude to without actually naming?

          Your post makes you sound like a stupid kid. I wait with bated breath for your reply. If it's Rails, I might have to hunt you down...

      2. Anonymous Coward

        RE: java has had it's day

        That, and TS had underestimated the amount of cheap iClones and lower end Nokias in the market.

        Even on my N97, most of the games on the Ovi store are Java-based (Nokia dying? Not in many parts of Europe and Asia, where there are entire cults the size of states dedicated to Nokia. My sister is one of them. Refuses to touch any phone that is not a Nokia). And my dad recently bought an iPhone clone from India on the grounds that it was cheap. Guess what? It runs Java as well.

        What about the Blu-Ray players, and of course, Google's Dalvik?

        And yes, large enterprises use Java as well. The payroll and expense system at the company I work for uses it extensively. Also, many colleges still teach Java to students.

        So Java dying off? Wish it would since Oracle is evil and Java it has been used for evil with the inception of the BD+ encryption architecture, but there's nothing that can be done, unless someone can come up with a better "compile once, run on any architecture" solution that is truly cross-platform.

    2. vic 4

      COM+/DDL Hell

      Your java experience is obviously wider thna mine, in the 10+ years I've bene doing java development I have never had any com/ddl hell issues, but then again why would I.

      Before people jump in about "classpath hell", this has been a sovled problem for a number of years no and was never an issue for any real development team who actually follow some sort of quality control rather than just hacking their way through it.

  6. Eddie 4
    Paris Hilton

    P*ss off Apple

    I migrated from Windows to Mac some 2 years ago, not least because the Mac platform is closer to my average Java deployment platform (*nix) than the windows OS I was using.

    However, increasingly I've become concerned with the attitude of Jobs - its reminiscent of Micro$haft's "embrace & extend" - monopolistic, arrogant and anti competitive. Now this announcement is the final staw - I'm not gonna upgrade my MBP, instead I'm going to either look at a Linux laptop or even Windows 7 - that's how p*ssed off I am.

    And no, Java ain't as powerful as it once appeared but it's still an important platform all the same. I do wonder if this is Job's taking a side swipe at Google & Android?

    Paris cause Jobs is screwing us all

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Glad to see Java going

    And I say that as someone that codes for Android and Crazy Uncle Larry's House of Big Orange Databases...

    Anon, of course.

  8. Anonymous Coward

    The danger of shiny

    "If the future of Java on Mac is in doubt, then I have no other choice than going the Linux way...all the work I've done trying to get all developers converting to Mac is undone."

    We've heard this before: Apple fanatics enthusing about shiny, twisting their friends' arms, downplaying the concerns about openness, vendor control, planned obsolescence, getting a bunch of people to "switch". Then, when they finally get screwed by Apple themselves, their chums have inherited the "platform evangelist" mindset, won't listen to the warnings, and are busy "converting" other people themselves.

    Insist on openness and control for yourself: ignore shiny-minded buffoons bearing Apple products!

  9. Law

    my next laptop...

    ... won't be another macbook... not because of the java issues, but because I don't like the way it's all heading (osx, apple's iron-grip, etc). Will probably go for a souped-up Alienware or XPS.... who knows.

  10. John Sanders

    But let's be honest

    JAVA as the JVM implementation (not the language) is a piece of bloated slow rubbish (like its clone .net/.mono).

    What gosling should have designed is a decent portable compiler for the C++ successor that was JAVA.

    Instead Saint Jobs and Mighty Google had to come to show how stupid, bloated, slow and useless the SUM stock JVM implementation is, implementing their own.

    So yes, let JAVA as a "running in a sandbox full of dog poo" die die die die die

    1. blackworx

      Your comment

      Reminded me of the Royan character in Peter F Hamilton's Greg Mandel books.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      You have no idea what you're talking about

      The modern JIT is bloody amazing. Much of it is favourably comparable to compiled C code.

    3. Neill Mitchell

      This is not Flash

      Jobs may get away with dissing Flash as slow bloatware, but if he thinks he can employ the same tactic with Java then he is sorely mistaken. Java is too useful and too widely used for serious applications that people (probably unwittingly) use regularly.

      This, as always, is about control. How long will it be before Jobs decides that you can only buy apps for your Mac from the App Store? Even if he doesn't take that step, the cost of applications inevitably will rise as the developers re-coup their Apple fees.

      But hey, it's okay because Apple is doing this to protect it's poor customers from buggy software right. So why worry about personal freedom and choice.

      What worries me is that people are falling for it. The rose tinted glasses are getting thicker by the week.

  11. JonHendry

    Gosling isn't quite right about Windows

    "In the beginning, Microsoft provided Java for Windows"

    Nope. JDK 1.0 was available on Windows. It was released even before Microsoft licensed it. (Kim Polese's press release says Microsoft "intends to license Java".) Microsoft was never the sole provider of Java on Windows. Sun's JDK, including their JVM, was always available.

    If Sun hadn't put it on Windows themselves, I doubt anyone would have cared about it. It would have been seen as some Solaris thingy. It would have swept the world like NeWS did.

    Microsoft certainly wouldn't have cared. But because Sun was providing support, Microsoft knew they had to co-opt it, confuse the issue, and pee in Sun's soup.

    Polese's JDK 1.0 press release:*&pli=1

    Or search google groups for message id: <9601232342.AA02818@849-news.portofino.Eng.Sun.COM>

    1. sT0rNG b4R3 duRiD
      Gates Horns

      Nope. JDK 1.0 was available on Windows... etc...

      I remember this to be true. Then we had M$ J++ etc...

      Also, you have a point about the likely popularity of Java if Sun hadn't provided a windows implementation.

      I tried to get into it then, but always found other excuses not to use Java to be honest. I

      might have to change my ways though since I bought an android phone. Java's not looking too bad on these, at least on first glance.

      1. Paul M 1

        Not only but also

        In fact, Microsoft originally only created a JVM for Windows NT. IBM actually created one for the Win 98 line as well as for Win NT.

        I may be wrong but I think they still do them for Win and Linux as well as AIX, iSeries and zSeries machines.

        So really, Stevie J is very very wrong.

  12. Bruce Hoult

    it's only the GUI, stupid

    Java has never had a good UI story anywhere. Java on the Mac was perhaps the best one, due to all the work Apple did (yes, probably using secret APIs) to integrate it tightly into OSX.

    If Apple stops support it (and who is really using Java for Cocoa development anyway), then it's no big loss.

    Anyone can port the regular JVM to OSX and write server and command line apps using databases, J2EE, the internet and so forth to their heart's content. In other words the same as any other platform with Java.

  13. Billl

    Who really cares?

    The Java devs should care, but the nice thing about Java is that it does run on multiple platforms. The few Macs running in corporations will now be migrated to Ubuntu or Windows. No real loss to anyone but Apple and the few that actually liked running Macs.

    1. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

      Have a look at universities

      A lot of my (computer science) students have Macbooks, many courses and much scientific software use Java. All these students will abandon Apple if this goes through. Apple will lose an important user base, because these students mainly go into IT business, and ultimately influence choices on equipment in the future.

      Piss them off at your peril.

      1. Chris Pearson


        These students are unlikely to dump a ~£1k investment purely because of lack of Java support.

        The ones who need Java for their course will likely (or at least should) know how to duel boot or VM into windows or Linux (or single boot OpenBSD like my flat mate on his MacBook). Also I know of most the courses at my former are now dumping Java for C# so macs are screwed even then. Of course this lot can always attempt to use a lab computer but that's another problem.

        Those who need it for their courses will likely be design types and their lectures will be in the same boat as their labs will be full of iMacs. They will work around it.

        The ones who got it because "macs are cool" probably won't need Java either unless there's some random app or course tool they need in which case they may well be boned.

  14. Eddy Ito

    Why bother?

    "After deprecating Java, the company also announced that applications using deprecated technologies such as Java will not be allowed in the upcoming Mac App Store."

    Doesn't this also ban any implementation of Java from the MacAppstore as well? Even if it doesn't, what would be the point if you can't get apps from other places without jailbreaking your McBookends?

    That said, I'm starting to think switching to a Win7 laptop instead of getting a Mac IntelBook was a good idea.

    1. Franklin

      A title is required

      No jailbreaking is required. The Mac app store will not be the only place to get apps. (And really, most major apps won't be distributed that way anyway--you're not going to get Microsoft office or Adobe's Creative Suite from the app store.)

      I'm still sitting here wondering why this is blowing everyone's noodle. Apple's not making a JVM any more. Well, uh...that puts Macs in the same position as Linux and Windows. Microsoft doesn't make the JVM for Windows, after all.

      So now that OS X will be in the same position JVM-wise that Linux and Windows are, the earth-shaking problem is...what, again?

      1. Bod

        The Mac app store will not be the only place to get apps

        How long will this situation last I wonder? It doesn't take much for Steve to decide the next version of the OS will only run apps from the app store.

        And don't say it will never happen, because we know from Steve that he's prone to making these kinds of decisions.

      2. Werner Donné


        The GUI integration.

      3. Anonymous Coward

        The Mac app store will not be the only place to get apps.

        oh really? I'd like to see that written in stone by Steve Jobs.

        I suspect, very much, that the App store will be the ONLY way to get Apps in OSX 10.8

        (too much of a new twist int he guts of all Mac users to do it for 10.7 )

  15. Sean Baggaley 1

    I don't know what some of you are smoking...

    ... but it's clearly affecting your reading comprehension.

    Apple have decided not to bother maintaining their own-brand JVM. There are two possible outcomes:

    1. Oracle decide to take over the chore of maintaining Java support for OS X.

    They already do so for Windows and Linux, among many others, so why is this considered so unlikely? Because it's a little bit hard? Seriously?

    2. Oracle decide to throw their toys out of the pram and drop OS X support from Java.

    Quite why they'd do this, given Java's entire "run anywhere" ethos, escapes me, but hey! I'm not the one implying this in my own idiotic rants: *you* are!

    No matter what happens, it's a fair bet that the world will fail, quite spectacularly, to end.

    New technologies rise and fall all the time. New paradigms are invented, hyped, adopted, left to rot, then abandoned by the wayside. This is *normal*. It's "information Technology", for f*ck's sake. If you haven't spotted this blindingly obvious pattern by now, you're in the wrong trade.

    As for Java's "importance" in the enterprise and corporate sectors: why in the name of Codd do you expect Apple to give an unshat fig about those two sectors? That's like demanding a more business-friendly XBox360!

    Apple are only chasing *consumers*. You are not their target market. They do not care about your unusual needs. F*cking deal with it already, instead of whining like a spoiled child with entitlement issues.

    Get it now?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      All of which was true, but ...

      ... "to give an unshat fig", just totally cracked me up. Thankee.

    2. Mark Haanen

      Smoke and mirrors

      "They already do so for Windows and Linux, among many others, so why is this considered so unlikely? Because it's a little bit hard? Seriously?"

      This is considered unlikely because Apple has decided to add their "secret Apple sauce" to the Mac JVM. This gives Java apps on the Mac just a little more 'zing' than they have on the Sun/Oracle-supported Java implementations. Your first outcome requires Apple to give their secret sauce recipe to Oracle. Not impossible, just highly improbable.

      1. Ian Davies

        Not so fast

        Your characterisation of "secret Apple sauce" implies that there's something non-standard about it, but in reality it's simply about Java being properly integrated with the native Mac GUI so that looking at a Java app doesn't make you feel like your eyes have been prised out with a fork and dipped in bleach. Looking at X11 apps make me want to blow chunks.

        1. Martin Owens

          The title is required, and must contain letters and/or digits.

          Technically speaking I'm looking at a gtk app running on xorg/x11 right now. But then I'm not daft enough to run MacOSX.

          1. Anonymous Coward

            I use Inkscape and Gimp

            And I don't really mind the non-integration.

            I don't see why people will whine when a third party Java port that uses X11 surfaces either. Sure, the GUI won't blend, but I'm sure the suits wouldn't care either way (remember that these are the same suits brought up on Multicalc on the Apple II and later Lotus 1-2-3 on the IBM PC, so most likely GUI won't matter to them much.

    3. Apocalypse Later

      Tunnel vision

      "No matter what happens, it's a fair bet that the world will fail, quite spectacularly, to end."

      The world will certainly end, pretty soon too, but it will have nothing to do with Apple or Java or any of this other stuff. People are about to realize that money itself has no real value.

    4. Robert Lougher

      Some facts for a change

      Actually for your information it *is* hard for Oracle to port Java to Mac OS X.

      1) AWT implementation on Windows uses Windows graphics calls

      2) AWT implementation on Solaris/Linux uses X-Windows calls

      Apple's version of Java used OS X graphics, and according to Gosling, several secret APIs.

      So unless you want to run your Java apps on Mac OS X using X-Windows, a port is much more than just a quick recompile. Sun had to do a version for Solaris. The Linux version shares much of this code. So, unless Apple donates their code to Oracle, I can't see Oracle bothering to do a Mac version anytime soon. As you rightly said, they're in different sectors. I doubt they could give an unshat fig about Apple. Apple tried it on with IBM over the PPC and lost.

      And I'm using Java here deliberately. A port of Java is more than just the JVM. The graphics, etc. are part of the class library implementation, and is not part of the JVM proper.

  16. Christopher E. Stith

    Oracle just sued Google over having a competing Java tool set that isn't from Oracle.

    Jobs and Co. spent their own time and money making Java programs on Mac look like Mac programs. Oracle has started suing people for doing things with Java that differentiate them from Oracle's bog-standard Java tools. Many of the cross-platform challenges Java was supposed to fix are now handled by GUI compatibility layers like wxWidgets anyway, with native GUI look and feel (wxWidgets itself does this on at least OS X, iPhone, Windows, Windows Mobile, Linux, OS/2, and embedded GTK+ from at least C++, Perl, Ruby, Python, .NET).

    Apple is probably concerned not only that they are behind Oracle's release curve but that they are wasting effort. They may even be concerned that Oracle will eventually sue them for their effort at keeping Sun's baby alive on OS X in a way that Oracle wouldn't exactly approve.

    I don't think much of Apple, but I think less of Oracle. This is a move I'd seriously consider at this point in time if I was distributing a Java system. Oracle is making a mess of the software landscape both commercial and open source, and against their calls for Sun to be more open and engaging before the buyout.

    You can blame Apple for pulling support for Java all you want, but I blame Oracle.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      This is not the reason you're looking for

      As the article says, other manufacturers do their JVMs, it's not true that Oracle have a monopoly on them. Oracle are suing Google for another reason.

    2. Oninoshiko
      Thumb Down


      Oracle sued Google for not fully implementing Java. If the implementation is not complete, the patent grant does not apply. This rule exists to make sure that any java app can run on any JVM, and it existed under Sun's reign too. In fact Sun raised the concern over Google's implementation.

      If I meet Larry in a dark alley it's going to take all the self control I have not to shove my steel-toed boot somewhere very uncomfortable, but taking Google to task for releasing an incomplete java is the right thing to do.

      1. Martin Owens


        Is it Java? I didn't think it was. In the same way as Perl isn't smalltalk and python is java (thank bob)

  17. Anonymous Coward


    It makes me wonder why no-one so far has mentioned the article El Reg had just a couple of days ago called "Java surpasses Adobe kit as most attacked software"

  18. Dick Pountain

    Battle of the Tight Uns

    > I don't think much of Apple, but I think less of Oracle.

    You got that right. The two companies between them are trying to drag the industry back to proprietory closedness, but they won't succeed. Let the two scorpions fight each other to the death, while we mammals egg them both on.

  19. General Pance

    What's the big deal?

    I don't understand the problem here: people who buy Macs understand a lot of stuff isn't going to work on them.

    That's their problem.

  20. Anonymous Coward

    Look at all the java supporters

    All six of you who vote down the posts. We get it, you like Java, it runs on cars and on servers, and on digital wrist watches because you though it was a pretty neat idea. But why, if this java is so ubiquitous you bemoan the loss so much of such a trivial platform which belongs to the realm of desktops where your beloved Java is of such irrelevance? hmm?

    You really are not as important as you keep telling us.

    Besides... you still have Java... script! LOLZ

  21. Michael Kean

    What's affected other than Limewire?

    Limewire, and my ISP's SMS via the 'net are the only two Java applications I know of. (Oh, and OpenOffice I suppose.) What else is there that is in daily use by a moderate number of people that will be affected?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      RE: What's affected other than Limewire?

      Many online banking login systems, and payment systems, along with verified by visa and mastercard secure code, all requiring java on the machine you are using, so banking and shoping is more difficault.

      1. Narg

        You've got it all wrong...

        Banking and Shopping on the internet has moved far away from Java due to PCI Compliance requirements. Java was not secure enough for these requirements. There are some very poor or old web sites that still use a little Java code, simply because they can't or don't know how to update it. But those are extremely rare. Most secure transactions occur through server side code of many more modern languages like C# or compiled server code.

        1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

          Stop smoking that black Afghani

          You are babbling.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Printer drivers maybe?

      I installed a Lexmark printer on the wife's Ubuntu desktop and the driver used Java for the GUI, I expect the same for the Mac version anyone able to confirm this?


    3. Adam T

      Re: What's affected other than Limewire?

      Puzzle Pirates!

  22. BoscoH
    Thumb Up

    Let's hope for Google

    Perhaps Google can at least pick up the slack in the browser. The Oracle lawsuit may make that difficult. But if Chrome becomes the browser that still supports standard technologies the web has adopted, it might be a key advantage for Chrome.

    Thumb, because that's what Steve Jobs has up his arse.

  23. JabrTheHut
    Gates Horns

    I don't think anyone is looking at this from a business point of view...

    Steve Jobs probably saw the Oracle/Google law suit, then looked at how many developers he's got writing, updating, documenting and certifying Java, followed by a look at how many Java apps he had on his Mac at work or at home - which was probably none. Thanks to M$.

    I remember when every new app I installed was either Java based or the writers were bragging about how the next version would be written entirely in Java. But first M$ made Java incompatible with Java, then eventually stopped shipping Windows with Java, and convinced all their OEMs not to install Java. End result was M$ won - no Java on the desktop to speak of.

    Steve Jobs has seen where Java will end, and has acknowledged M$ has killed it. Which really sucks, because part of the allure of the Mac is that it doesn't always boil down to penny-pinching accountants deciding what to include, what not to include. Or it didn't, once.

  24. John Smith 19 Gold badge

    Most people don't buy *languages*

    They buy the apps *written* in them.

    So the question is how many of the Mac's core non Apple supplied apps *are* written in Java?

    If the answer is practically none Jobby won't loose any sleep but (suppose) some of the heavy hitters, the one's that *force* people to go with Mac's that's a different story.

    BTW the point on secret API's is interesting. The days of "Inside Mac" are over. I think Jobby get's a pretty easy ride on this point. There would be a *lot* more comment (and has been) on MS''s less than open API list.

    1. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

      He is not looking at an important user base: students and researchers

      "So the question is how many of the Mac's core non Apple supplied apps *are* written in Java?"

      Answer: Lots of scientific software

  25. semprance
    Paris Hilton

    Not that simple

    "1. Oracle decide to take over the chore of maintaining Java support for OS X.

    They already do so for Windows and Linux, among many others, so why is this considered so unlikely? Because it's a little bit hard? Seriously?"

    If it was just a little bit hard I would see your point. On the other hand, if it is the case that these so called 'secret APIs' do exist and that the Apple JVM depends on them, then it will be more than a little bit hard.

    I know little about the Architecture of OS X but I'd assume that it uses the API for obvious reasons. If Oracle developed a new implementation built on shaky workarounds because of the lack of API access it would be an utter disaster.

    As for Java being an 'unusual need', this doesn't really make sense. It seems there are plenty of people complaining about this all over the place meaning this is not a minority problem.

    I despise Jobs' attitude towards technology and think that this is terrible for Mac users, but I can't totally disagree with him for his expectations of Oracle to produce an implementation when they do it for Microsoft. Maybe Apple needs to break a few rules first..

  26. Anonymous Coward

    Sorry Java...

    You just never took off in the places were Apple makes its money -- on the consumer desktop. Sure, Java is used in the "Enterprise" -- which I've come to determine is defined as large consulting companies duping other large companies into using technologies, like Java, that they can use to run up huge billing hours with, while at the same time pay code monkeys substandard wages to write said code.

    What's that you say? What about Android? Well... Check this -- Google only picked Java as the language for Android because it has a large pool of developers who know that language -- not because it is a particularly good programming language. Popularity != "goodness".

    Down vote me all you want... but "Search your feelings Luke, you it to be true..."

    1. Bod

      Popularity != goodness

      Yeah, just look at VB ;)

      Do you really want a world of shit apps written by morons with business degrees or A-Levels in computer studies? No, you want quality tools that attract quality developers and result in quality reliable code.

      And good god... Objective C? Come on! Just because Steve used to use it in his life before becoming God.

      1. fajensen

        Don't mind if I do, actually!

        I want to see lots & lots of really shitty apps especially those fronting banks and other stores of value. Makes life easier, on many levels.

  27. JonHendry

    Mainly Matlab

    The only 'big' app I can think of is Matlab. Very expensive, and widely used by scientists and engineers. Then again, the UI also relies on X, which launches first, so I'm not sure how it'll be affected. If necessary they could probably fall back on an X-based JVM.

    I think their installers are also Java-based, without involving X.

    The only other application I have that is Java-based is the Encyclopedia Britannica app, which would be a shame to lose, but is arguably a dinosaur in this day and age when they have their web version, and there's always Wikipedia also.

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Thumb Up


      I didn't know that. That's *is* the sort of item I had in mind.

      I've lost count of the number of degree and post grad theses that use this stuff and not having it as an option is likely to dump Mac's as a choice for a lot of (mostly ) American the engineering students.

      Weather that's a key market for Apple and weather Matlab would take the hit and do their own JVM is the sort of question that will tell how big a stink Jobby's decision will make.

    2. Dick Pountain

      Java has-been

      The Encyclopedia Britannica app is a VERY poor advert for Java. A previous version totally trashed my PC config by messing with codecs. No longer installed here.

  28. Anonymous Coward


    Why is the IT world so fond of this word?

    First it got jargonised, to mean an outdated method of doing something that is better not used, now people are deprecating each other!

    Well, at least it is more like the original meaning, I suppose.

    Not that I mind. It's just curious.

    Mine's the one with "Eats shoots and leaves" in the pocket

    1. Arctic fox

      @Thad. Thanks, I was just about to post the following........

      "1. Express strong disapproval of; deplore.[Wordnet]

      2. Belittle; "The teacher should not deprecate his student's efforts".[Wordnet]

      3. To pray against, as an evil; to seek to avert by prayer; to desire the removal of; to seek deliverance from; to express deep regret for; to disapprove of strongly.[Websters]

      4. Base verb from the following inflections: deprecating, deprecated, deprecates, deprecater, deprecaters, deprecatingly and deprecatedly.[Eve - graph theoretic]"

      ........and ask if anyone could help me by explaining how Apple had used that word in their press-release! Not being aware that "the trade" use it to mean something that is no longer good enough led to my being extremely puzzled about what they actually meant. Other than that they were in some way dissing java of course.

    2. Dick Pountain

      Feeble prohibition

      Deprecated is popular because of the job it does - it says "we don't like that but we don't have the balls to tell you not to do it" which is very 2010...

  29. regreader2011

    Reading Comprehension?

    From the announcement: "As of [...OS X 10.6 Update 3], the VERSION of Java that is ported by Apple [...]is deprecated" [emphasis mine]

    To me, that says that someone else will provide Java for the Mac, hopefully s.t. Apple is no longer "one version behind". It's a bit of a stretch to interpret this as "no more Java on Macs".

  30. Ian Davies

    Looking for complexity where there is none.

    Everyone is looking for some conspiracy theory here, but the much more likely scenario has to do with Jobs's (and therefore Apple's) tendency not to carry any baggage.

    Apple is ferociously forward-looking. They have no qualms about chopping out dead wood, and often do it long before people realise the wood is even dying.

    That's why Apple:

    - ditched the floppy drive

    - didn't maintain either of their legacy compatibility layers (Classic for Mac OS 9 apps and Rosetta for PowerPC code, respectively) for more than about 5 years each

    - didn't include a keyboard/stylus on the iPhone

    - is in the process of phasing hard drives out of their notebooks

    Jobs hates looking back. Apple doesn't do "legacy".

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @Ian Davies

      "Jobs hates looking back. Apple doesn't do "legacy".

      Is that why he's got an operating system built on (very good) 40 year old technology?

      1. Ian Davies

        "Old" and "Legacy"...

        ...are not the same thing.

  31. Narg

    Java should die...

    I'm no Apple fan, but Java definately should die. I've supported various Java platforms for years, and quite frankly, I'm tired of it. There are so many other coding methods that are much more modern and much more cleaner than Java, it's amazing that it's stuck around so long. Of course, as long as BlackBerry's are around, Java will live. Talk about an outdated dinosaur of a platform! All the new BBs are nothing but lipstick on a pig.

    Die Java Die!

    1. Giles Jones Gold badge

      Old doesn't mean bad

      I think you'll find that Java is OO (object orientated) and pretty much most languages are now.

      Java is a compiler interpreter, it compiles source code into bytecode which is then converted into native instructions by the Java Virtual Machine.

      Visual Basic and C# do the similar, they both have runtimes which convert to native code as they run.

      There's nothing archaic and wrong with Java, it just is now under the ownership and control of the wrong people.

      C++ and C are pretty old too, you don't hear people thinking that they should be withdrawn?

      x86 instruction set is ancient and a mess too, but it seems to be popular.

  32. JaitcH
    Jobs Horns

    The only thing 'deprecated' os the Mac OS

    Slowly the California cult leader is drawing his flock in to drink his AppleAid.

    Jim Jones all over again, or may be the more technological Ron Hubbard of Scientology. All three rated as nuts, but what does that say of his followers?

  33. Joey
    Jobs Halo

    Good riddance

    Java. Meh. Who needs it. Yesterday's technology for yesterday's people.

    1. Bod


      Like Objective C which is 10 years older than Java and adopted by just about no one but Jobs who clings onto that antiquated and unreadable/unmaintainable dinosaur.

      But yet C and C++ are still going incredibly strong. Why doesn't Jobs kill them?

  34. danny_0x98

    Gosling's Comments

    Regarding sources, all I know is that to update java on my Windows and FreeBSD systems, I get stuff from Oracle. For OS X, it comes from Apple, eventually. For Linux, distro repositories.

    Is it really material that Jobs forgot about AIX and HP/UX, server products? I like Gosling but we should also remember Apple and Sun's relation have been complex.

    I do expect someone to port the java and jvm to OS X. It does make sense for Oracle to do so. If not, IBM has a window. Yikes, strikes, it's jikes!

    Any way, not much I can do about it and there's java on my Mac know, so tomorrow's weather has far more consequence for me right now than the announcement. I'll be watching. I write java applications on my Mac, so it will be an inconvenience, and potential showstopper, if it truly goes away.

  35. Alan Denman

    The funny funnel.

    Removing all functionality directs everything to the Apple funnel which is to be the APP store.

    You have to salute mein herr for his skill.

  36. J 3

    Well undone

    "all the work I've done trying to get all developers converting to Mac is undone"

    Not necessarily. Just do like I did when I "inherited" a 24" iMac at work: repartition the hell out of it to keep OS X in about 100GB (if you want to be safe, otherwise you can make it even smaller), then use the remaining 500 GB or so for the Linux installation (Ubuntu in my case). Dual boot. Works (nearly) perfectly -- the one exception being restarting, which sometimes hangs, sometimes doesn't (it seems to be a graphics problem). So what I do is remembering to turn it off and then on again instead of simply restarting. Since it's a relatively rare event anyway, I don't care, small price to pay.

  37. Wang N Staines

    I'm so glad

    that Jobs did this. Java is a piece of crap! Now that Oracle gotten involved, things will just going to get worst still.

  38. Cyberspice

    No big deal...

    I already run Windows in a VM for Windows dev and Linux in a VM for embedded Linux dev. So I may not be able to run Java natively on OSX in the future (unlikely, someone will step in with OpenJDK) big deal.

    I own a Mac because when I'm not developing I like a machine that I can (accidentally) throw across a station platform and survive, integrates with all the shiny devices I like, I can make music with and is just a joy to use day to day.

    PS. It shows how little Windows has been doing lately that Jobs is now the 'evil one'.

  39. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward


    This is a shame if it means the rather excellent and free NeoOffice suite is affected. In common with many ported X11 apps, the look and behaviour of Oracle's OpenOffice is pretty confusing by comparison.

  40. Anonymous Coward
    Jobs Horns

    If you buy from a dictatorship...

    ...don't be surprised when they behave like one.

  41. Luke McCarthy
    Jobs Horns

    Oh boy

    Get ready for the iPhonification of the Mac. Goodbye, general-purpose computing!

  42. Tom 13

    I believe Oracle's ownership of Java is the root of the problem here.

    Ellsion and Jobs are both ego centric prats with "my way or the highway" attitudes. That's okay as long as there isn't a phalanx of lawyers backing both of them with seriously frelled US patent and trademark laws. Sun ran Java as a benign dictator. Now that Ellison owns it Jobs, recognizing his doppleganger across the table is cutting his losses and running.

    The bard put it best near the end of one of his great plays: A pox on both [their] houses!

  43. Alex 37

    This Java developer will get angry

    Like I wrote n Slashdot comments, I am writing music notation and playback software using Java. The one program is tested on OS X 10.3.9, 10.4.11 and Windows XP. It uses a powerful rule engine called Java Expert System Shell (JESS) via its Java API. I have a lot invested in Java and I will not search for another rule engine for Objective-C, if it even exists at all.

    If Apple kills and blocks the Java ecosystem in its products, I will dump the Apple ecosystem. Mr. Steve Jobs, you will have become worse than Bill Gates, vying for complete control over developers. I will sell off my Macbook Pro, my old G4 tower and iPod shuffle and cancel my planned upgrades of all three. Windows and Linux will be the new homes I have NEVER called home before. I used to own an Apple II long ago showing my support for principled companies…

    I will encourage all those who bought into the ever closing Mac ecosystem, to leave it. I hope the Apple Board and Apple’s shareholders will stay awake at night because of the exodus until they support Java in all their products and help make it better.

    As a GUI API, Java works perfectly. It makes multiplatform development easy for the small business. Steve Jobs doesn’t care about small businesses anymore. He cares about his Objective-C.

  44. Neil Hoskins

    Development Tools

    Interesting feature. But I'm unimpressed by the image of fanboy developers crying their eyes out, I'm afraid. It takes about ten minutes to set up NetBeans on Ubuntu and it doesn't need to be a particularly powerful box. I run it on an eeepc 901 and it works fine. Don't want to give up your shiny new toy? So run dual boot or two boxes, fer chrissake.

    1. Alex 37

      RE: Development Tools

      I'm not crying about the death of Java dev tools for OS X 10.x I'm crying about Steve Jobs cutting Java out of a growing market - Apple hardware. I'm calling for a signal to be sent to the Bill Gates wannabe so we have more customers for our Java applications. I don't have time to learn another language, I have a family to start.

      I already dual boot Windows XP and Mac OS X

  45. IceMage

    Just another Fail

    It doesn't matter if the move will get developers to move from X to Y, the problem is, you're forcing developers to move. They now have the option of either replacing their OS, or replacing the language they know. It's like going into France and saying, "Hey, English is so much better than French, so from now on, all legal activities must be done in English."

    I'm sure most of them would be pissed. Those Frenchies really love their langauge, and don't want to have to learn English. A lot of them may know it, but that's not the point. They're suddenly being forced to either use a langauge they're not comfortable with (which leads to some really sloppy work), or move to a place where they can use their language freely.

  46. Anonymous Coward

    Untold number of Java Developers

    "he's also turning his back on the untold number of Java developers who do their work on Apple laptops and desktops"

    You just know Steve is going to be losing sleep over that. What the frak are you lot smoking?

    As for the percentage of of Macs sold on the basis of its Java support, ok, how about the percentage of Macs sold to people who even know what Java is... Blimey, doesn't even justify the time spent on this comment. see ya

  47. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

    All these people slagging Java

    never come up with what they consider a better platform for programming. I do not like Java very much myself (C, C++ are my current tools, though I started in Pascal, and did some work in Fortran (shudder)), but have always considered programming language fights among programmers too tedious.

    I would be interested in what these people who hate Java prefer.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

      What they prefer?

      Programming single-class 20-liners in Haskell, I reckon.

  48. Rex Alfie Lee

    Why use it?

    It's obvious Larry's decision to buy Sun was about suing Google. It's also obvious that Steve Jobs doesn't like anything that can get around his control-freakiness & Steve Ballmer is a Monkey Boy. Transfer to the Open Source Java version & screw Larry. Ignore Steve Jobbies' arrogance, limit Larry's petulance & bury Steve "I'm gonna f**king kill Google" Ballmer in the garden.

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