How Ellison could fight Google's Android - without lawyers

First, the good news. Java on mobile phones has been a palpable success. Installed on eleven billion mobile phones worldwide, Java ME is one of the most widely available software development platforms - ever. Its APIs are powerful and a pleasure to program with (as long as you're targeting a single device, of course). Also, …

[DrXym]

The problem with J2ME

JavaME is getting sidelined because development under Oracle / Sun's stewardship is moribund. J2ME APIs are arcane, a subset of J2SE and stuck in a world where phones are only capable of running 1 java application at a time with limited access to the rest of the phone.

Google just did with Android what devs wish Oracle / Sun had done with J2ME building an entire OS around a Java like runtime with a rich & powerful API. Instead of whining about it, Oracle should produce a viable alternative or at least contributing to the ecosystem in a meaningful way. For example I expect a port of JavaFX to Dalvik would be a popular and welcome addition.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

Get your facts straight...

Strong type must be a google fanboi or maybe he just never ran his own shop to comprehend that Oracle is protecting their revenue stream from licensing Java Me.

Look, its pretty straight forward so let me break it down to you.

J2ME had never been 'free' and had to be licensed if/when embedded in to a device.

Oracle is doing what it has to do to keep their revenue stream alive. Google is trying to do an end run around Oracle because they don't want to pay for the license stream of J2ME.

In short Google got caught once again with their hand in the cookie jar and now they are getting taken to court.

If found guilty, they will probably have to pay triple damages because of their willful infringement.

(They thought they found a loophole and knew what they were doing was a violation of the terms of the licensing agreement.)

Its that simple.

No dirty tricks here. Sun did this to Microsoft and Microsoft had to cough up what... a billion or so dollars?

No malice or evil on the part of Oracle, unless of course you think all lawyers are evil and that upon passing the bar, there's a ceremony where they sign their souls over to the devil. Now that would be evil.

[Anonymous Coward]

"FACTS" And The Mafia

FACT is MS signed a license agreement with SUN regarding Java. MS violated the agrrement and was sued.

Google did not sign anything. They imagined SUN was a honest player and they could use Java in the Open Source spirit. Which was true.

Now Mr Larry "Protects" his revenue. The Mafia is also in the "Protects" their "Revenue Stream". If Oracle wins, it will become clear that the Patent System Is A Protection Business which must be demolished.

It is already clear that Mr Larry is a shortsighted typcoon who gives s**t about the role of his company in the Open Source community. Boycott his technologies !

[Ian Michael Gumby]

@Strong Type...

Apparently you seem to know "all the facts" of the case.

(That was supposed to be sarcastic.)

Its interesting to see my previous comment flagged negatively.

While its true that I believe Google is evil and dislike them, I also have the same disdain for Oracle. It just so happens that the law is on Oracle's side on this one.

If this goes to court, Google is going to lose because both sides have the deep pockets to hire very good lawyers.

Aside from that, Google still may "win" if they can capture enough market share to make this gambit pay off. But you never thought about that.

;-)

[DrXym]

Come off it Ian

It is true that Google worked around Java, but anyone who knows anything about J2ME can fully appreciate why.

J2ME is a shit environment that people are fed up with and it's expensive to licence. Modern phones & set top boxes have outgrown J2ME's limitations. I just came off a project that chose to use Skelmir (a clean room JVM) in a set top box because it cost half as much as J2ME to licence, and supplies virtually all of important features of J2SE 5.0. I expect if the project were started from scratch again we'd even have considered Android. What we would never have done is considered J2ME.

J2ME hasn't changed in the last 5 years - it implements a subset of Java 1.3 (no generics, no autoboxing, no NIO, no XML parser, no concurrency APIs etc.). It's barely adequate to develop a single application let alone an entire OS of apps all talking with each other. Oracle have basically neglected their child and are acting all shocked that people don't want to use it any more.

Of course Android & Dalvik aren't Java, but they're close enough. The fact that it isn't Java and never claimed to be is why Oracle must resort to patent violation litigation. If you look at the handful of patents Google has been accused of violating a good half are in the SDK, not Android. And all of the "violations" are pretty weak. I expect if it comes to anything Google will just file a countersuit with a list of Sun / Oracle's violations and the whole lot will be settled for a paltry sum and some token support for Oracle somewhere.

It's too bad Oracle don't recognize Android for the opportunity it is. JavaFX would be a natural fit for Android, and would allow people to develop rich apps that run on the desktop or on smart phones.

[Andy 18]

Spot on.

I've struggled repeatedly against the quirks of different phone implementations of J2ME and MIDP and eventually given up. When you have code that has a 1000 case switch statements in order to cope with all the different phone models you want your app to run on, you know it is never going to get through testing.

[Anonymous Coward]

the android android

"It helps that Android has its own mascot, the grinning green robot that looks like it's about to start 'dissing mashed potato and selling you its powdered variety"

I'd say it's more a Metal Mickey than a Smash Robot

[Tigra 07]

Where's our proper android pic?

As mascots go, it's a brilliant one

I even have it on my laptop and you can get android wallpapers for the ipad!

What's more, because it's open software you can see it everywhere in apps and on the net, wearing t-shirts, skateboarding etc

It's a brilliant design

Where's the android picture?

[lucmars]

Larry just wants the money

He doesn't care about Java ME, he just wants to put a tax for the use of Java

[Anton Ivanov]

You missed the point

The reality is that there is virtually 0 Java ME devices out there of interest to a 3rd party developer. What goes on a Java ME phone on 95%+ of java capable phones is strictly under operator control. No sane 3rd party developer would want to deal with that.

First and foremost for any media app (and non-media) this will nearly always mean IMS compliance and billing through the operator IMS subsystem or even worse - legacy billing. This also means that any media including video, video conf, etc will have to be shoehorned into the notion of "guaranteed, but mediocre user experience" instead of "best user experience available under current conditions". Sod that for laughs, this idea contradicts the basic economic theory of capturing the market. The initial market capture is on an empty market and the goods/service should cater to first adopters which means that they must deliver the max possible. An app shoehorned day one into "guaranteed, but mediocre" and geared towards the "end goal" cannot capture a market.

Second, the operator will always want to distribute through its own channel. Trying to do that for Java ME has already been done a few times in the past. It has always failed. No sane 3rd party developer will deal with 4000+ distribution channels each of which is with their own whims. Google and Apple have created a UNIFIED distribution channel. The developer no longer has to deal with 4000 product managers with contradicting requirements. Further to this, both of them have sufficient market power to say _NO_ and explain the operator how NO is spelled if necessary. No developer has this market power.

Until Oracle creates its _OWN_ distribution channel for Java ME, with its own billing hooks and takes onto itself mediating the relationship between the 3rd party developer and the operator Java ME will remain what it is now - an environment which developers hate and whis is used only by some operators for in-house or contracted minimal UI customisation.

[Andy 73]

It's quite simple...

The guardians of Java have consistently and repeatedly misunderstood the consumer space. Whether it's their academic or corporate background, they failed to capitalise on the unique advantages they had in being first to market with an extensive, technically solid and consistent platform.

They dropped the ball on the desktop, they dropped the ball on the browser, they dropped the ball on mobile and they're in danger of dropping the ball on the web (witness the thrashing of dozens of frameworks, battling for attention).

It seems recently that in common with the old guard of mobile phone manufacturers their first thoughts turn to the industry deals they can do, rather than what is needed to engage the end user and facilitate the work of the developer. Technical excellence and robust licenses are not enough in the modern world.

There is still a lot to commend the Java platform, but Sun/Oracle's stewardship seems increasingly irrelevant. That's particularly disappointing given the resource they contribute to the platform.

[Spearchucker Jones]

Larry to follow Microsoft's example?

"...a single, powerful device configuration for smart phones" - sounds rather like Windows Phone 7!

[Notorious Biggles]

Crapps

I'm a Symbian user (shock horror!) so I've used plenty of Java ME apps as well as many native apps. And nearly every time, the native apps have been much better. Whilst there are good Java ME apps out there (the Dilbert one from Ovi is excellent and free, go download it), the majority are pretty poor and the experience sucks as soon as you run it on a phone it wasn't aimed at.

Java ME should by rights be far more widely adopted since it turns a dumbphone into an almost smartphone and there's literally billions of Java ME handsets out there, but for whatever reason, compatibility never seems that good.

The next issue, and one that would be fixed by a hugely increased scope of the Java app store, is that the app downloads from a lot of operators and/or game developers don't work on the basis of profiles.

For instance, looking at the www.orangedownloads.co.uk website right now, games that show as compatible on the Nokia N82 don't show as compatible with the N86. Sure, slightly different Symbian revision on it, but should work. So lets try comparing with the N95 8GB which does run the same version of Symbian. Damn, same apps don't show as compatible on virtually identical hardware and software with little more than a product code (and different plastic housing) to differentiate.

My point is that the Java ME apps market gets huge amounts of potential custom blocked right at the start when the app store sells them on the basis of manually having been tested with a particular handset and only becomes available after it's been added to a "supported" list by a person. End result - Java ME become a hassle for users and less profitable for developers.

[Syren Baran]

JavaFX

well, another nice piece of tech that could have been. But just another WTF.

How come even a "mobile ready" demo ,like e.g. http://www.javafx.com/samples/DisplayShelfMobile/index.html , does not work on a recent J2ME enabled device?

To much fragmentation, too many cock-ups. Sad story really...

[Jason Bloomberg]

Java - a confusing mess

Java with it's various editions, profiles, classes which may or may not be included is a confusing mess for anyone who tries to get involved with it and the "write once, run anywhere" hopes through using Java are quickly dashed. It still hasn't escaped confusion between Java and JavaScript in some quarters.

Where Android succeeds (as Ubuntu mostly does) is in packaging something as "the only thing", standardised across the entire range, which makes it much easier for people to get their heads around and a greater chance an app will run on a similar device. That in turn makes it a de facto choice and all those bedroom coders pile on in.

Android Dalvik will become "The New Java" and the rest will likely languish. I can see how that would nark Ellison but that's the way market forces are moving things. Java had its chance, over many years, and failed to conquer. Dalvik already looks like a success. It's seen a few bumps but nothing it can't rescue itself from.

[phen]

It can't be saved

It's always seemed ridiculous to me that J(2)ME developers have to get their (our) apps tested and signed at extortionate prices for *every single model* we want to cater to, but the mobile manufacturers can put any half baked JVM on their phones, complete with subtle differences and serious omissions, and market it as "Java".

No thanks. I don't care how much market share these "dumb" phones have. The majority of the people who won't spend money on a "smart" phone, aren't going to spend it on apps either (at least not enough to cover the cost of certification and development and still leave a reasonable profit).

[JavaRuss]

Java Verified is about application quality

Russ with Java Verified here. Java Verified is an independent org with reps from AT&T, LG, Motorola, Nokia, Oracle, Orange, Samsung, Sony Ericsson and Vodafone working collaboratively on the single goal of ensuring Java ME application quality. Thousands of apps are submitted to us each year for testing because many app stores and others require the Java Verified seal of approval to prove that apps actually work. While Matt’s story addresses a variety of Java ME issues, his Java Verified call-out misses on what Java Verified is all about and doesn’t reference device compatibility, an important part of the app quality story.

And while our focus is on ensuring app quality, we also listen to Java ME developers and the industry when it comes to how to do things better. Developers have told us they want it to be easier and cheaper to obtain the Java Verified mark of quality for simple applications. So in June, we launched Simple App Testing. Developers – big and small -- also tell us they want more options for reducing testing costs. So today at JavaOne, we’re officially launching Trusted Status and a call for Java ME developers to apply to become Trusted Status developers. Developed based on extensive input from the global Java ME community, developers earning and maintaining Java Verified Trusted Status will be able to test apps on their own, with a signing cost that could be as low as 1 dollar per app. If you’re at JavaOne today, come hear reps from AT&T, Digital Chocolate, Intertek, GetJar, Oracle and Nokia discuss Trusted Status during a panel and Q and A beginning at 11:30am US PT in the Hilton, Golden Gate 8. -- Russ

[Niels 2]

putting "independent" in one sentence with earth's most conniving corporate foam whippers

"Java Verified is an independent org with reps from AT&T, LG, Motorola, Nokia, Oracle, Orange, Samsung, Sony Ericsson and Vodafone"

Muahaha disqualified!

You're presiding over testing for an unacceptable mess created by telco's self serving BS.

And I think they like the fragmentation that's driving developers insane just fine. God forbid the possibility of an open market place of java apps on dumb phones, they don't want a lot of apps competing with their crapware, or using their network for activities they don't have another toll booth for.

[Niels 2]

haha

That list sure includes some of the most conniving companies you can find.

Too bad the earth isn't flat or some merciful person could just dozer them off the edge...

[maccy]

Java - a verbose mess.

When you have to say things like

import System.Utils.Strings.Getters.GettersOfSingleThings;

import System.Utils.NonStringObjects.OutputInitializers;

StringGetterHelperProfileSubsetThing x = new StringGetterHelperProfileSubsetThing("42");

SingleThingOutputStreamInitializer y = new SingleThingOutputStreamInitializer();

SingleThingOutputStream z = new SingleThingOutputStream(y);

z.PrintSingleThingToOutputStream( x.GetFirstNumericCharacter() );

you know the language is in trouble.

[Anonymous Coward]

Can we just get Google to switch Dalvik for Pylvik and be done with it?

That way, we'd be rid of Java, Larry and his army of lawyers in one shot. What a win!

I really don't get why the Author is a) shedding a tear over Java, and b) trying to give advice to Larry... Would be awful if Larry took the advice and succeeded with it... He'll pervert the open source stuff he got from Sun in any way he can.