Northerners give up ID cards for Lent figures suggest

The initial rush to join the government's ID card scheme appears to have eased, with applications from people in the Northwest running at an average of as little as 14.5 per working day. In a Commons answer yesterday, ID minister Meg Hillier said that as of March 3 there have been 4,307 applications for identity cards from …

[Anonymous Coward]

Look. It's a title

Maybe numbers are low because no sane person is interested in the ID.

Ever thought of that, Guvmuppets?

[Anonymous Coward]

RE: look it's a title

Guvmuppets.....heh

[LinkOfHyrule]

Guvmuppets

"Guvmuppets" That's a keeper! I'm officially stealing that word for my own use! Gets my vote for word of the year! Love it!

[hplasm]

Shurely some mishtake-

"the system currently in use by IPS for identity card enrolment for British citizens will continue to be incrementally rolled out, taking account of public demand..."

Shouldn't that be excrementally rolled out...

[Anonymous John]

"There was no explanation for the apparent drop in interest. "

There is always a rush of early adopters when something new becomes available.

[Anonymous Coward]

So it should only take.....

.....somewhere north of 12000 years to sign everyone up. I don't mind waiting till last.

[John Smith 19]

Going *slow* on the roll out.

I think not. The government sock puppets and the senior civil servants who've been dreaming of this for *years* aren't letting a little thing like the current government going down the urinal of history delay this.

Only the public dismantling of the apparatus, coupled with burning of every position paper, over optimistic roll out plan and the exhibiting of certain civil servant (and ministerial) heads on sticks would do that*

93 days maximum, 58 days likely to general election.

*The author does not condone nor encourage acts of violent retribution against legally elected and appointed officials of HMG.

[Anonymous Coward]

violent retribution...

"*The author does not condone nor encourage acts of violent retribution against legally elected and appointed officials of HMG."

So what you're saying is, wait till they're no longer legally elected, appointed officials of HMG, then jam their heads on sticks?

I don't know - it implies a certain degree of immunity from the consequences of their crimes......

[Adam Salisbury]

Really?

"The author does not condone nor encourage acts of violent retribution against legally elected and appointed officials of HMG"

You're the only one!

[Anonymous Coward]

Where's Guido Fawkes when you need him?

All that CO2 released, I propose we just burn the civil servants and ministers, that way we'd save a bundle on supporting the leeches, a bundle on heating the houses of parliament and the hot air released from burning them would be considerably less than they normally produce.

(anyone else keep reading Hillier as Hitler or do I need an eye test?)

[MonkeyBot]

Don't burn them

Compost them.

You can enjoy it for longer and it's more environmentally friendly.

[Greg J Preece]

Gah, no!

"Perhaps an Eastenders story line could boost interest."

No! Don't give them ideas!

[Anonymous Coward]

RE: Gah, no!

Maybe the original poster meant that would boost interest in Eastenders?

(I can't imagine that even 4300 people watch that crap!)

[Tony S]

Eastenders

I don't want to worry you, but actually there are considerably more than 4300 people watch Eastenders. In fact, I believe that more people watch Eastenders on a regular basis than voted in the last general election.

And no I don't watch Eastenders (or pretty much any other soap opera) - I think that I would rather undergo colonic irrigation.

But then, I'm an effete, elitist, snob (with a very clean intestinal tract!).

[SuperTim]

The assault has started.

We are now being mithered with letterbox drops about getting an ID card, and some bollocks about it being usable as a passport in thirty countries (they wouldnt say which ones) and some proviso that you needed to have had a passport valid since 2009 (Huh?)

Still, i get a warm glow when i put the pamphlet in the recycle bin......

[Andy Scott]

I dont take them

I work on a bar in a concert venue and we've been told by the bar management only to take a valid passport or driving licences, but not id cards as they’re to east to forge.

[M.A]

tyhey are desperate

I had a letter topday from the passport and idenity service proudly proclaiming "The New Idenity card is here at last" ( I live in Lancashire ) I have filed it in the usual place for junk mail, teh bin.

[Tony Humphreys]

Meg Hillier

It must have been my tired eyes, but I read Hitler instead of Hillier.

I need a screen break!

[Dan 10]

And...?!

I think that's your brain skipping tasks where it knows that it will make no difference to the outcome...

note the lack of a joke icon.

[clickon]

Suspiciously round numbers

Given civil servents love of round numbers i think the 100 application difference between 16th and 18th Jan just means the actual figure crossed the boundry to round up to 3800 rather than rounding down to 3700

[PaulK]

Why bother?

The guvvy website says:

"Remember: Both the National Identity and Identification Cards are entirely voluntary. No one can make you show them. No one can check the information on them without your permission. And you don’t have to carry them with you all the time."

So what is the point?

[Andrew_F]

Re: Why bother?

The missing word is "yet".

[Anonymous Coward]

re: why bother?

"Remember: Both the National Identity and Identification Cards are entirely voluntary. No one can make you show them. No one can check the information on them without your permission. And you don’t have to carry them with you all the time."

You don't have to shove them up your arse either. They only say you don't have to do something if they are trying to get you used to the idea that it might be a posibility in the future.

[Vladimir Plouzhnikov]

No point worrying?

Yes but once you've registered you must inform the authorities about any change of your address for life or be heavily fined. Even if you originally got your ID card purely voluntarily.

I was born in the Soviet Union and that's how the things worked there - everyone over 16 yo was under obligation to inform the authorities about any address change and had to have a "domestic passport" with the latest registered address stamped in there. Most people did not care to carry this things with them but if you could not show yours to the police on demand you could be taken to a police station for "verification of identity".

Well, in reality you never noticed this things unless you happened to become drunk and disorderly. Or a slightly rebellious student. Or a political dissident. Or if you lived in the country but wanted to move to, say, Moscow in search of better opportunities.

Is this the Soviet Union that the Labourasts want to build here? Is that the kind of country you want to live in? I heard many pub conversations about the West winning in the Cold War - is that the coveted fruit of the victory?

[D Moss Esq]

Congratulations, James Hall!

James Hall is the Chief Executive of the Identity & Passport Service, the people responsible for bringing ID cards to us, the hoi polloi.

The Home Office has had over 10 years to plan for this bounty. Unstinting political support from the Labour party. Unlimited budgets. Untold consultancy -- well done PA Consulting, in particular. And marketing advice from M&C Saatchi, Abbott Mead Vickers and proximity. All this, and what has Mr Hall achieved? 14.5 applications a day.

Never, in the field of human commerce, has so much been spent on so few.

http://dematerialisedid.com/CiF/Review.html

[Igamogam]

I can't get an ID card...

I really would like an ID card but can't get one. I cross national borders almost daily and having to take my passport everywhere is a complete pain in the ɐsƨ and frankly just plain worrying (in case it gets stolen or lost).

My wife (who is not British) just uses her ID card and it makes life much easier. She has a quick legal means of identification which is valid to travel within most of the EU and Switzerland (even for air travel). It makes banking and administration jobs much easier and most of the time I feel like a backward and rather silly Brit. for not having as simple a thing as an ID card.

I have even had instances where people said, "you didn't need to bring your passport - your ID card would do". When I explain that we don't have them in the UK people are aghast and can't believe that we have to use our passport for ID when it's completely unnecessary.

Talk about fitting the stereotype - an insular hick.

[Eponymous Cowherd]

Missing the point entirely

I have no problem with ID cards. I don't even have any problem with biometric ID cards as long as the biometrics are one-way (i.e. they can be used to confirm my ID but can't be used to ID me directly).

What I *DO* have a problem with is the Orwellian National Identity Register (NIR) that is behind the UK ID scheme and will also be behind all passports from (IIRC) 2012 if the Labour muppets stay in Government. That *does* allow you to be identified by any fingerprints you happen to leave lying around and will also track you as you use your ID card and/or passport.

Ask yourself this. If the Government are pushing ID cards as a simple way of confirming your ID ( and people such as Igamogam are actually swallowing this line), why *do* they need a (much more expensive) system that will allow you to be tracked and traced wherever you go?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pay attention

Its not the ID card! Its the database behind the cards, its the linking of this to all the other databases, its the monitoring of you and your behaviour for the rest of your life, its the assumption of ownership of your identity by the government, its the cost of the whole apparatus. Its not simply a little piece of plastic in your pocket that tells others who you are.

[Ken Hagan]

Re: I can't get an ID card

"frankly just plain worrying (in case it gets stolen or lost)"

Er, and given the government's plans for a fully joined up identity database, how would a lost ID card be any less serious than a lost passport? In fact, somebody ought to tell the government that we already have a "card" that can be used to "prove one's identity" and which is not compulsory, yet.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want an ID card.

What makes you think losing your ID card would be any less traumatic than losing your passport?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ooooh, the big bad ID monster is coming....

I got my ID card in the last month.

Also, the applications are open to anyone who registers interest on the IPS website, because I didnt live in any of the trial sites, but still got invited to apply.

Before you jump on the abuse bandwagon, why did I get one? I travel very regularly throughout the EU, and a Passport doesn't fit easily in my pocket. Why do I need a 40-odd page passport when it never gets stamped in any country I visit. Various EU countries have had them for years, though they are usually the size of the back page of a passport.

What Biometrics were taken? A photo, signature and fingerprints. But thats the same information that was on my passport. I didnt give blood and urine samples. Oh no, my fingerprints! Now if I murder someone, I will be caught! Maybe I shouldnt murder anyone then.

What about the interview? What interview? I handed over some cash, stuck my fingers on a scanner and had my photo taken. Same as was done last time I applied for a passport.

What if it get's stolen? What if my passport gets stolen? A UK passport is probably worth far more on the black market and contains all the same information.

What countries can I use it in? All EU/EEA countries, plus a couple of others. The application form came with a list.

How rigourous is the checking? Seems to be fairly robust. The IPS called me 3 times to confirm various details, inclucing the fact that there is someone in my street with the same name as me (no relation), and also that I had missed a previous address on my application.

So, I have one, and I am happy with it. If my wallet gets nicked, they will get my ID card instead of my driving licence (which actually has my home address on it, which the ID card doesn't).

Let the torrent of abuse flow..... go ahead, you know you want to.....

[Anonymous Coward]

hehe

Don't forget you'll need to keep all your information up to date forever (even AFTER you die) or face rather large fines. That will also include when they force you to come back to add some DNA to the biometric data.

Basically, you belong to all future governments now - well done.

[xyz]

@ Ooh big bad etc monster

I got my ID card in the last month.

snip

How rigourous is the checking? Seems to be fairly robust. The IPS called me 3 times to confirm various details, inclucing the fact that there is someone in my street with the same name as me (no relation), and also that I had missed a previous address on my application.

******************************************************************************************

Doesn't it worry you at all...that they phoned you up 3 times to confirm where you live (so they pair you with a phone number for that address and didn't trust you twice when you answered it), told you that someone else in your street had the same name (cough DPA) as you and that you had missed a previous address on your application!!! (£1000 fine innit and according to what...your tax record or did that belong to the other bloke in the street with the same name)

Are you bonkers or a troll?

[irish donkey]

there are many positve aspects but

with many things there are negative impacts.

What those negative impacts will be we don't know fully yet but you are aware that if you fail to keep your ID Record up to date you are liable for a hefty fine.

My issues isn't with having a ID per say but the shifting of the legal obligations to keep it up to date and the large fines attached to not doing so.

But you may say there are fines for not keeping you passport up to date. Well not really I don't have a passport at the minute, as it has just expired, well two years ago. When I want a new one I will go and apply and get one no questions asked as to why I let it lapse... same with my driving license, if it expires and I don't drive a car no problem.

Let you ID Card lapse or go out of date then you are in the world of a whole lot of hurt! So enjoy your card just don't let it lapse!

[Red Bren]

So what you really need

is a credit card sized passport, without the massive insidious database that will link to your medical history, police record, banking history and shopping list, all neatly packaged up to be sold to the highest bidder or lost on a disk in the postal system.

Or maybe just bigger pockets?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tit.

Sigh, good boy. Now all you have to do is keep it up to date, keep paying for the ID card and passport, worry that your record doesn't get attributed to that child pornographer with the same name as you, lost by some moron who decided it would be a good idea to post it on an unencrypted CD, that it's not being used by Israeli agents to asassinate someone in the EU, forged by terrorists to act as ID to buy several tons of fertiliser and a couple hundred gallons of red diesel or chappati flour and hair dye. Best of all you get to pay for all this because you find a shirt pocket sized passport too large. Massive win... Not.

Oh, and you said it yourself, for a small convenience you've bought and paid for duplicated information by selling a shit load of your civil liberties to a corrupt regime. FTW...

[Anonymous Coward]

Torrent.

"... a Passport doesn't fit easily in my pocket ..."

That seems like a somewhat random reason to get another form of identification.

"Why do I need a 40-odd page passport when it never gets stamped in any country I visit."

For the same reason you need an ID-card that never gets stamped in any country you visit. Also the passport's made of nice, re-growable paper, while your ID cards made from un-replaceable petrochemicals. And it's not like those 40 pages are the size of a brick

"What Biometrics were taken? A photo, signature and fingerprints. But that's the same information that was on my passport."

You had fingerprints on your passport? What kind of passport do /you/ have?

"What about the interview? What interview? I handed over some cash, stuck my fingers on a scanner and had my photo taken. Same as was done last time I applied for a passport."

"How rigourous is the checking? Seems to be fairly robust. The IPS called me 3 times to confirm various details".

So on the one hand you're happy that security is robust, but on the other you're pointing out that it's easy-peasy lemon-squeezy to get these things. Does that not strike you as contradictory?

"What if it get's stolen?"

Your fingerprints will get stolen, along with your photo and signature.

"What if my passport gets stolen?"

Your photo gets stolen along with your passport details.

Which means they're about level pegging. So why the arsing around with a new system when the old one didn't convey any extra risks?

"A UK passport is probably worth far more on the black market and contains all the same information."

Except your fingerprints.

"What countries can I use it in? All EU/EEA countries, plus a couple of others. The application form came with a list."

That's nice. Can you use it in Australia? Paraguay? No? I can use my passport there though.

"If my wallet gets nicked, they will get my ID card instead of my driving licence"

Along with your fingerprints

"Let the torrent of abuse flow"

Not abuse so much as bemusement.

[Steve X]

Does it work?

Have you actually tried to use it to travel yet? Better keep the old passport handy as well, just in case...

[Lee Dowling]

Well...

"Also, the applications are open to anyone who registers interest on the IPS website, because I didnt live in any of the trial sites, but still got invited to apply."

Suggestion of desperation for willing candidates?

"Before you jump on the abuse bandwagon, why did I get one? I travel very regularly throughout the EU, and a Passport doesn't fit easily in my pocket."

Helluva good reason to hand over all that information. I'd hate to see your Facebook account. But seriously, no-one cares about the ID-card aspect, it's the bit BEHIND that that's important. Why do we need the ID card when the passport already works? The government is seriously spending millions of pounds so that you don't need to buy a bigger pocket? Pull the other one.

"What Biometrics were taken? A photo, signature and fingerprints. But thats the same information that was on my passport."

Not on mine. The fingerprint thing is quite recent. Mine has a photo and a signature only. No doubt at some point I will have to give fingerprints but by then the government will have had another 5-6 years of sorting out their databases.

"Oh no, my fingerprints! Now if I murder someone, I will be caught! Maybe I shouldnt murder anyone then."

Nope, even fingerprints aren't that big a deal. Who cares, really, but if they aren't necessary (and they are a piss-poor way of identifying random people, even in courts of law that's recognised - they can only act as a probabilistic indication when you already have someone in mind... read up on simple statistics and biology - the chances of you "matching" someone's fingerprints somewhere else in the world are actually quite high, the chances of it actually being you aren't certain).

"What about the interview? What interview? I handed over some cash, stuck my fingers on a scanner and had my photo taken. Same as was done last time I applied for a passport."

Rigorous identity measures being checked there then. Well worth the millions of pounds and all that hassle. Obviously *no-one* can get a fake ID card, just like no-one can get a fake passport. Again, it's just a worthless exercise in pissing about. Which should make you question it *MORE* because it doesn't do what it says, but costs a lot of money, and they are keen for you to use it so what *IS* it going to be used for. (P.S. read up on your legal obligations regarding the information stored about you now - you have a requirement to keep them up to date for ever and ever, something your passport doesn't require).

"What if it get's stolen? What if my passport gets stolen? A UK passport is probably worth far more on the black market and contains all the same information."

Correct. So again, why not just keep passports (already existing, already working, just as good, no extra expenditure)?

"What countries can I use it in? All EU/EEA countries, plus a couple of others."

Like a passport, then... but not as good.

"How rigourous is the checking? Seems to be fairly robust. The IPS called me 3 times to confirm various details, inclucing the fact that there is someone in my street with the same name as me (no relation), and also that I had missed a previous address on my application."

Oh wow. Rigour defined. They checked a local phone directory. Remind me to hire these guys next time you have the same name as a terrorist.

"So, I have one, and I am happy with it. If my wallet gets nicked, they will get my ID card instead of my driving licence (which actually has my home address on it, which the ID card doesn't)."

No, but the ID card is valid as a passport in EU countries, can open bank accounts without further ID, etc. - they only have to get someone looking vaguely like you and they can steal your card and play merry hell. And how do you prove it *wasn't* you? It's like a passport. Only easy to steal because you are obviously intending to carry it in your wallet.

Basically, it's a worthless bit of expensive plastic that does nothing *new* and works just like an existing passport (in fact, you basically have to *have* a passport, or be eligible to have one after a similar application process, to be able to get an ID card) but has fabulous new restrictions on YOU, while also acting as something quite potentially dangerous. Oh, yes, and you had to hand over cash for this.

Hope your pocket space was worth all that hassle. Because that's the *only* other difference between this and a passport, which you already have.

[Ejit]

What drivel is this?

The Identity and Passport Service did not take your fingerprints the last time that you applied for a passport.

There is no fingerprint biometric collected for a UK Passport.

[Vladimir Plouzhnikov]

What a schmuck

"Why do I need a 40-odd page passport when it never gets stamped in any country I visit."

Are you a merkin or maybe traveling between counties counts as traveling between countries for you? Try to visit a country that requires a visa, moron.

All the other stuff that you wrote - you better move to the North Korea and quick. This country is still way too free for you. You are obviously suffering from an acute psychological shock due to all this freedom...

[Anonymous Coward]

In police state you are guilty unless proven innocent

"Oh no, my fingerprints! Now if I murder someone, I will be caught! Maybe I shouldnt murder anyone then."

You are missing the point. Somebody murders someone somewhere and partial fingerprints are found on the place and they partially matches yours and you know what?

You are treated as suspect, automagically. (No, that's not a typo.)

It's totally irrelevant what _you_ do or don't do or say, police assumes that all suspects lie on everything anyway. Your fingerprints, you've been there, you are guilty and cut the corners, that's the way police force operates. Good luck for you to prove you're innocent, not the other way round: fingerprints prove that you've been on the spot.

That's why fingerprinting every citizen is stupidiest idea I've heard, false positives skyrocket. But if the only problem is finding someone to charge, that's no problem.

[TeeCee]

Oopsie!

Those countries you want to use it in: "If my wallet gets nicked, they will get my ID card instead of my driving licence..."

Most places, not carrying said Driving License whilst driving is an instant nick and fine (often on the spot). So where do you carry a Driving License to ensure it's always with you, rather than "in the non-wallet pocket of my other jacket"......?

NB: Nowhere I've found do they mandate that you carry the paper bit**, which is the bit that has your address on. Is that double FAIL or FAIL squared?

**In fact the only place I've found that gives a flying f*** whether you have such is the UK. Everywhere else is happy that the picture says it's you and the codes say that you're entitled to drive what you're sat in or on. Let's hear it for common sense.

[Anonymous Coward]

heh

I applied. Turns out I got my application in for a fake identity nice and early, because I filled in the form in the pub after a couple too many and they've blindly accepted what I put there and created a new id for a person who doesn't strictly exist. My correct id turned up a few weeks later, after a second form (sans beer)

I doubt it will ever get me past passport control or a police check, but at least I've now got a spare identity I can do bad things with, and then disavow all knowledge of my actions.

But if they're that good at checking the facts, I'd say that kind of demonstrates that the scheme is already broken...

[Maurice Shakeshaft]

Why is an ID Card and the NIDB needed?

Just a simple question.

I've read all the stuff about a "one stop shop" & "protection from Terrorists" and "ease of access"..... and the like but they are facile, simplistic & rubbish reasons. What is the real reason(s).

I might consider an ID Card at some point in the distant future but even then not until I have a sensible answer to the question.

I refuse to allow "The State" to define me this way.

[Guy Herbert]

@ Irish Donkey

"But you may say there are fines for not keeping you passport up to date." - There aren't.

If something happens to you to cause a major change of appearance, you are advised to renew it. If you lose it, you should report it lost. And that's it.

A passport is still a certificate of nationality and a handy place to keep visas. The Home Office and assorted Whitehall warriors may wish to make it into "proof of identity", whatever the hell that is, but they haven't yet.

[Matthew 3]

'...same information that was on my passport...'?

I didn't have to give fingerprints when I applied for my last passport (and yes it's one of the newer electronic ones). The closest that gets to biometrics is the digitally encoded photograph.

So how is this the same as an ID card?

Anyway the real point here is when will they let us go back to the proper blue hardback passports and bin these Euro pamphlet ones?

[Anonymous Coward]

14 per day?

I suspect most of them are Common Purpose shills.

[John Smith 19]

AC@15:54, @Adam Salisbury

AC@15:54

"So what you're saying is, wait till they're no longer legally elected, appointed officials of HMG, then jam their heads on sticks?

I don't know - it implies a certain degree of immunity from the consequences of their crimes......"

@Adam Salisbury

"You're the only one!"

As you may be aware under UK law glorifying or inciting acts of terror is a criminal offense.

Naturally I would not want the likes of James Hall (Head of IPS), Katherine Courtney (Director of Home Office ID programme), Stephen Harrison, Head of the ID Policy Unit at the Home Office, or indeed the (potentially) fragrant Ms Hillier to feel that people might hold them *personally* responsible for this massive attack on civil liberties, when after all they were only obeying orders. The right to *not* be unlawfully killed and the right *not* be subject to arbitrary and random acts of intimidation (such as the whole head-on-a-pike thing) are part of the European Convention on Human Rights.

Although I cannot recall if that only applies to the State (like shooting random electricians or holding you for 24 days without trial because you have the wrong name) or people in general.

Hope that makes everything clear.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe ...

.... most mancunians have seen the following in our local paper?

"ID card confusion at travel terminals"

"ID card chaos as travel firms blunder"

"Bank says 'no' to national ID card"

WTF point having one?

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1187160_id_card_confusion_at_travel_terminals

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1187159_id_card_chaos_as_travel_firms_blunder

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1191468_bank_says_no_to_national_id_card

[asiaseen]

Sex is part of the deal

"third party concession arrangements with one or more partners"

[John Smith 19]

@Maurice Shakeshaft

"Why is an ID Card and the NIDB needed?"

Simple. Certain bureaucrats have an insatiable desire to collect information about people (never mind what it's used for, how it's secured. They *want* it)

It was realized that with a *single* unique ID number system it would be possible to show *everything* about a person (foreign or domestic) in the UK. Provided you have the access rights (which naturally they would expect to have by right).

At a stroke all systems of government would be updated (automatically) whenever a data subjects details changed. And best of all it's *your* fault if you don't update your details.

Of course this would mean *all* major government IT systems would either have to be adapted, merged or rewritten to accept this (the cost of that work has *not* been included in the ID cards scheme cost. It's the responsibility of the departments those systems are in)

but that's not a problem for the promoters of the scheme. Build it and they will come round.

The implicit assumptions of the promoters include a) Adequate security is built into it b) Cards cannot be forged c) Access to the database will be widespread (but secure with reasonable response times) d) No member of staff will misuse their authority for personal benefit.

e)They have a right to your personal details and you should be *happy* they are taking such trouble look after your interests.

Basically to allow them to manage (in *every* possible sense of the word) the people of Britain more efficiently and cheaply.

How could you resist helping your government (or at least some of its senior civil servants) from carrying out such a *worthy* goal?

[BossHog]

Nothing to hide....

All the non-crooks have got their cards then :D

[Ascylto]

Herr Flic

And don't forget ... there are no scanners widely in use for checking ID Cards.

Instead, we are advised to 'flick' the card ... it has a particular sound.

Are these people fucking crazy?

Yes.

[lawman]

From the horse's mouth

Spoke to an IT field tester recently. The DVLA's new "get your licence at the Post Office" goes live at about 150 Post Offices soon.

Phase 2 is for the Borders Agency.

It's not going away.