Sorry, when did the UK get taken over by the East German government circa 1973?
Police have confirmed that forces in England and Wales are passing up to 14m reads per day from automatic numberplate recognition cameras to a national database. All but two of England and Wales' police forces are passing data to the National ANPR Data Centre, run by the National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) on behalf of …
You know what? I'm just sick of all this fannying about.
Lets just get it over and done with and get every man woman and child in the UK surgically implanted with tracking devices and all vehicles fitted with similar tech by law.
Anyone who doesn't agree should be assumed to be a terrorist and locked up. Anyone visting the UK must have one fitted or not be allowed in.
It is the inevitable destination of our surveilance spiral and at least this way we can save ourselves the expense of them incrementally building up to it.
Well it was recently revealed that the Dutch police were keeping similar pictures from a handful of cameras for three months and there were (rightly) complaints that this was against the privacy laws.
However the Dutch governments next move is to aim to fit all cars with GPS by 2012 so they can monitor road usage. They have not quite gone as far as forcing you to wear a tracking device yet.
"It is the inevitable destination of our surveilance spiral and at least this way we can save ourselves the expense of them incrementally building up to it"
That attitude is exactly what the powers-that-be want in their population. I'd rather the government waste some tax money on a failed scheme than roll over like a dog and accept a loss of liberty.
Freedom comes at a price. Luckily for you it's not your life at stake, just a few tax dollars. WW2 veterans must be rolling in their graves at how soft and pathetic the populace has become.
Has anyone here seen an ANPR camera picture?
Do we all know that the ANPR cameras take a photo of the whole of the front of the car? i.e. they include the face of the driver as well as the number-plate.
The number-plate recognition software limits surveillance at present, but it won't be long before they can do facial recognition and see who was driving vehicle as it passed the camera (and who was the passenger).
Are they talking about 'prolonged retention' of the raw digital photos or the output of the number-plate recognition software? (i.e. number-plate and date-time).
My bet is they are keeping the photos whilst waiting for more powerful software solution, then they'll be able to say "It was Winston Smith driving B19 BRO down the M4".
Varies by the type of camera reporting the plate and the source of the data. Some cameras (eg those use for calculating journey times) are only capable of sending textual data anyway, so doesn't matter which way it is pointing.
Actual usage varies from force to force, and from council to council.
Yes, foreign plates can be seen, although ability to do so depends on the software in the camera. It already has to support 7 styles of UK plates, so think how many variations would be needed to support the EU.
Having said that, most are configurable as to which countries will be identified. Around ferry ports, for example, they're likely to support more countries than those in rural areas which will probably only look for the most common - GB, NI, IRL & FR.
It may also depends on what the plates are being used for that determines how the cameras are configured.
The cameras are just there to provide more data so more computers need to be bought, so that whichever company it is that is paying kickbacks to those in power can make more profit.
The police don't work for us any more than the government do -- they work for whoever slips them the biggest wad of cash.
No problem. People who think that just changing the font on their car plate will stop them being tracked are barking up the wrong tree.
What we really need are LCD panels that fit ove rthe plate and change the number at random intervals. If/When you get pulled over by the plod, change it back, and watch their confused little faces.
So presumably the next step will be to allow suitably registered agencies or persons (Private Investigators, lawyers, CSA) to access the database, for a small fee of course and ascertain the movement of individuals to assist with inquiries?
So if you're planning an affair, take the bus!
Can someone please explain to me why a PRIVATE LIMITED COMPANY is taking over police tasks?
According to their own web site the ACPO is:
"The Association has the status of a private company limited by guarantee. As such, it conforms to the requirements of company law and its affairs are governed by a Board of Directors."
Reminds me of the out-of-control private police forces in third world dictatorships...
Why won't they tell people how many camera's, who has them and where they are deployed?
What have they got to hide then?
Be curious to know how many false plates there are out there and how many more there will be once the great unwahed get wind of this mass population control^H^H^H^H^H^H tracking device.
With this many cameras about, it should be a trivial matter for the system to determine that multiple hits on a particular registration have occurred close enough in time, and far enough apart in distance that it cannot be the same vehicle so some cloning has occurred. Flag up the registration as suspect and they get stopped. If you are the rightful owner you suffer the inconvenience of a stop, but find out that a clone exists, if not you're nicked.
In this particular instance (only), I reckon it is actually useful to have lots of cameras.
These cameras have been slowly popping up on all of the main roads into and out of Barnsley over the past months. Barnsley FFS. Scary if this is also happenning in other towns and cities to the same degree. However, once you know where they are they can be avoided in most cases, and in one case by driving past the local plod HQ.
I live in Barnsley on a major road into town that joins Sheffield Road and the damn things are dotted along there on various lamp posts and all approaches to various roundabouts including along Wakefield Road near Staincross (eastfield arms).
Here is the kicker, I don't drive (not banned just never learned) and quite frankly I think it is
another overbearing invasion of privacy like other monitoring devices but people won't listen !
Yes, how terrible of the Police - definately smacks of Big Brother, being able to track your clandestine trips to... erm... the shops, your Auntie Edna, your Moms, down the M3 to the South Coast.
Just think, they could profile you via your movements (although not of the bowel variety yet) - how terrible is that? Couple that with all the data the supermarkets are collecting and soon they'll be able to tell just how deviant you are!
What type of condoms did Mr.Tuttle buy from Tesco before driving 60 miles to visit a hooker with a bad cheese habit?
... snip ...
The knee-jerk reaction from netizens about anything to do with surveillance is so predictable, it's no longer funny - actually, it is, but also a bit sad.
Common sense and logic get flung out the window in favour of fictional scenarios, usually based around Orwells 1984 - the government is always watching!
A Big Brother style state is impossible unless our current democracy completely breaks down - no change in government, no elections etc.
This nightmare scenario requires ruthless centralised power - a dictatorship.
It also requires competence - something our governments are usually massively short of.
And we'd need a massive 'sense of humour' failure, not something I can see happening in a hurry.
So pack your tin-foil hats away and catch a bloody wake up already.
Yes, we all know you'd love to wake up one morning as Neo, realising it's all just a construct and we're slaves - and then sock it to the machine! (... and give Trinity one for the lads)
The reality is, you'll wake up one morning and get a traffic fine through the post, then go to work and have a sandwich at lunchtime and plan the pissup on the weekend, where you'll discuss just how shit this country is and how nice it would be to move to somewhere sunny, whilst being filmed by CCTV cameras...
There is no discernable difference between the choices offered to the electorate.
Legitimate concerns of the population are ignored.
The police are allowed to act in defiance of the law.
The number of bodies allowed to "investigate crimes" goes through the roof.
The burden of proof is effectively reversed.
The list goes on, but the point is that we're deluding ourselves if we don't think we are close to living in the equivalent of the Czech Republic in the 1960s.
I presume everyone here knows that all Police patrol cars (the Volvos with multiple antennaes) run these camera recognition systems. I have been stopped and taken into a patrol car for a false accusation on my vehicle twice. While I was inside I saw the monitor fitted between the dash that was constantly running and processing number plates. When I was running my car around on M.O.T expiry to a testing centre I avoided getting to close to a patrol car or turned off the road. Its these that do most of the spotting/work.
Why aren't they constantly busting the 20% of young drivers with no insurance and identifying the 6.5% of all drivers representing 2-million uninsured cars on the road?
They must see them go past all day long, but choose not to stop them all ... but they obviously liked the look of you.
"The number of police cameras is significantly more than the 6,600 ANPR units run by the Highways Agency and Trafficmaster. These do not transmit full numberplates, as they are used to calculate the speed of traffic over sections of road."
Er, I don't think so, IIRC they used the information from Traffic Master to successfully support a murder case against a contract killer who'd driven up from London to Glasgow, killed the target, then drove back, it was after that the HA and Police started to really into ANPR.
they have capacity for well over what they need to allow for growth, without another 4.2 million been spent on some mp's cousing third uncle's fledgling cctv business.
i dont believe it for a min....
though on a sensible note
i am not happy to have my vehicle location tracked constantly but at the same time i dont really care all that much.
just wish they would use it for good e.g. tracking stolen vehicles etc ....
Again what power does the ACPO have to make policy for this?
And why isn't there a law that says that retention must be restricted to the minimum necessairy for the stated purpose, and no more? If the police can't manage that, they can't be trusted to manage retaining anything at all. In which case the database is more of a danger than a benefit and therefore they mustn't be allowed to retain anything whatsoever.
They know who the people of "interest" are to them and the vehicles they drive gained from other intelligence, so keeping the data relevant o their travels is somewhat justifiable, but why keep the data every time one of us nip to Tescos?
And who needs them to disclose the ANPR site, they are easy spotted with the exception of the CCTV converted ones which are a bit harder.
@Another money spinner
I should certainly hope not, that would be unacceptable
@Silly number plates
I believe these get flagged for a "human" to check
10k ANPR-enabled cameras?
14 mill index numbers/day
1400 index nos/camera/day
56 index nos/hour
1/min on average per camera? Hhhmmmmm....
Still a damned cheek.
Any self respecting, passingly intelligent thief or serious terrorist intent on crime will be at least half aware of ANPR camera locations and will be taking steps to eliminate or manage their detection or apprehension. So we are left with either (The substantially innocent) Joe public or self detecting stupid thief being tracked and for what purpose. Meanwhile The serious and serial perps responsible for most of the worst crime and its development remain untracked and untrackable. And were is Tony Blair at the moment?
Were is the research that shows these systems are effective at anything they were put in to counter - indeed what were they put in to counter?
In a related piece of bollox, I understand speed cameras were put in on the Nottingham ring road to "catch Speeding motorists" with the fines being used to in part pay for the system. Motorists picked this up quickly and fine revenue plummeted leading to howls or outrage from the system implementers and not a few red faces. I'm not at all sure that accidents were reduced but I'm sure the Notts police can tell you if they are not busy passing exam answers to colleagues, shoplifting or making John Terry look more than a little innocent in relation to his sexual misdemeanors.
1: Car cloning of legit cars means they cant easily track criminals or other persons of interest.
2: As ACPO is a private limited company they cant hide behind the "ongoing investigation" clause the police have over data protection requests so anyone can freely ask for the data and be given it. Why invest in expensive company car tracking, get ACPO to do it for you !
Black Helicopters - ACPO's company vehicle it seems!
Ha! Try this. Late last year my bike got nicked near a major junction in a bike bay next to a very busy road. Loads of cameras.
A week later the police wrote to me and said it hadn't been found and they considered it case closed.
Three weeks later I received a parking ticket for the bike, which had been given the DAY AFTER it was nicked, parked in the NEXT STREET.
Of course I never got it back...
So much for 10,000 fucking cameras... Useless plods.
Problems like that will be dealt with when we roll out phase 5 of the programme and broaden our range of monitoring camera protection to also include residential streets. By that time we also hope to have perfected our behavioural analysis software. Of which, roll out will commence in phases 8 and 9. You will have nothing to fear soon.
Find out where there are some/many cameras that track you by your registration plate, especially ones that do average speed calculation, then get a bunch of cyclists all wearing shirts with the same fake numberplate on the back.
Now proceed to cycle past the cameras, with 100 meter gaps between each cyclist. Repeat many times.
Probably the best way to make the point about the damn cameras would be to have shirts made up with the registration of a well known politician / police chief etc. to really stir things up.
because I happen to think that, 'just maybe', these private companies, IF we mandate them to do it at all, should have had talks "to ensure that data retention is appropriate and proportionate" BEFORE they started stashing away millions of pictures per day. An activity which seems to have 'inappropriate and disproportionate' written all over it.
Big Bro icon - appropriate and proportionate for pretty much any story about the UK these days.
Most motorbikes get lifted into the back of a van then either shipped abroad or broken into bits and sold as scrap and parts so this isn't very handy for finding those.
Also it relies on Databases which are a pain in the ASS when they go wrong.
Case in point when I bought an SV650 a few years back from a chap way up North, me living down south.
Got pulled over randomly by the plod who ask me my name etc.
When I ask why I was stopped they said it was a random stop check as they were wondering what I was doing so far away from home.
I explained I was 2 miles from home thankyou very much.
Seems the plods Database still had the bike registered to this guy up north, not me, despite the DVLA paperwork and tax all being up dated (the tax and my ID i had naturally - bike ownership docs, of course not).
Queue subtle allegations of me having stolen the bike etc etc and 10 minutes by the roadside before someone finally comes back over the radio telling them to let me go.
I was NOT impressed to say the least and don't look forward to a massive growth of these which will be inevitable.
That said just as Inevitable is that a lot of clones/crimes/thefts will be stopped or solved with this system so meh....
On a more factual basis the cameras are located on motorways, bridges in or near cities and a shed load in patrol cars. As a guy who rides a motorbike I'm glad they are their because the more people they stop without road tax or insurance the less chance I have of being killed by some gormless teenage twat.
At first, I thought this seemed like just another set of data ripe for inclusion in Google's Universal Individual Location Tracker for Higher Ad Revenue Margins. Then I realized that they lack a good way to present the advertising specific the the car and its driver. Certainly can't send a text message or web page to the car; don't really have many dynamic signs/billboards; short-range radio "stations" along the roads have been tried (without the personalization) but failed.
Google has many, much-more effective methods for tracking people in their physical movements and their electronic/network activities -- Google and Google Maps on your cell phone with GPS/location awareness, Adsense, Analytics, Picasa, blogs, searches, ... They are already pushing ads tailored to your profile, recent searches, and current physical location.
BTW I don't believe there is currently anything preventing Google from returning search results favoring pages that display Google Ads over those that do not, or even excluding pages that contain ads from competing ad services. Several years ago, Google quietly revised many "legal" documents (e.g. Terms of Service, Privacy). You probably need to read the current versions.
For Google to be interested in this data, they would need to be pushing ads at those searching for cheating spouses, competition making sales visits to clients, and anyone curious of the lives of others -- celebrities, politicians, family, neighbors, or whatever. Even just Google Streetview has already generated some difficult questions, "Why was his car ever in our driveway at 6:00 am?"
What a load of cobblers !!!!
I can assure you peeps that fixed ANPRs are used for FACIAL recognition.
Ever hear the cops say 'associated' with this bloke or that ?
Yup that's what they are for. They are not interested in your motor; it's your FACE they are after which is matched instantly to a digital photo from your passport, driving licence, Govt ID card etc.
This is then plotted against your car and your Mobiles' Geolocation to show where you have been. I've seen the printouts.
This bunch have got the processing power to do it AND they use it.
Be VERY afraid.
Start wearing Burkas or balaclavas in yer cars to keep them away from your front door at 6 AM. and take your Mobile battery OUT when not in use. It can be switched on remotely at will for tracking.
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