back to article UK prosecutors drop 'tiger' sex video case

The CPS dropped a prosecution under the extreme porn law last week when it apparently accepted that the soundtrack on a clip of a tiger apparently having sex with a woman rendered the video comical rather than pornographic. Andrew Robert Holland of Coedpoeth near Wrexham appeared at Mold Crown Court on New Year's Eve to answer …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Grenade

    i for 1

    am glad our police / court time is spent so well... thank god there is nothing better for them to do.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Happy

    I wonder if...

    ...the bloke had suspect viddies because he came from Coedpoeth, which means Hot Wood in Welsh?

    1. Cazzo Enorme

      @Anonymous Coward 16:01

      "...the bloke had suspect viddies because he came from Coedpoeth, which means Hot Wood in Welsh?"

      Hey, I had a seriously hot girlfriend from Coedpoeth. The place itself is a bit 'orrible though - lots of smack addicts and bugger all in the way of jobs.

    2. Stratman

      title

      Naah, it's because Coedpoeth looksa bit like paedophile.

      At least to our boys in blue.

  3. Martin Nicholls
    FAIL

    This post title stuff got old years ago...

    .......................

    No seriously. What the hell.

    Does the CPS have way way too big a budget or something?

    "she claimed that when the case was previously reviewed the film had no soundtrack"

    Translation: I didn't turn on the speakers.

    "The CPS did the job that it is required to do"

    No they didn't - their job is to decide if a prosecution should happen at all, which is why they get involved right at the start of cases.

    "the lawyer was not told at that time there was a soundtrack"

    The lawyer should have looked for himself. That's his job. How can you be a prosecution lawyer without looking at the evidence of the case, that makes no sense.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      He did look...

      He just didn't listen :p

  4. H2Nick
    FAIL

    The title is required, and must contain letters and/or digits.

    Great - country's almost bust & the state spunks money on crap like this.

    Not to mention the dubious "fishing" aspects of the article

  5. BornAcorn

    Not proud

    Not proud to be living in Coedpoeth right now...

  6. John G Imrie

    Police selectively withholding evedence

    I don't believe it!

    1. Rob

      You shouldn't believe it either

      Your inferring that the Police had enough knowledge to actually remove the soundtrack from the video, now I find THAT hard to believe ;)

      As a previous poster said, numpty didn't have speakers turned on/volume turned up.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        WTF?

        Wrong Audio Codec

        Seems they didn't have the right audio codec...

        Bit odd that extreme porn with a comedy sound track is fine... seems that Benny Hill had the right idea all along... who'd a thunk it.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Big Brother

    This was a test case, then...

    "...The CPS is adamant that no soundtrack was given to it when charges were considered and the lawyer was not told at that time there was a soundtrack..."

    Somehow this just doesn't surprise me. This is how the cops play these games. Most people think of the police as acting in their best interests, somehow above dirty tricks and the like, but it seems clear (and thank God the CPS soon cottoned-on) they were trying to pull a fast one here. Perhaps they were just testing the water for their new offence - we can certainly expect a lot more of that in the near future. I'm waiting for the first attempt to bring someone to court for looking at 'indecent cartoons' of wholly fictional 'minors'. Should be fun. You just know they are going to try it.

    Such dreadful times we are forced to live through.

  8. irish donkey
    WTF?

    Frosties...... They're Greattttttttttt

    Prosecuting users for Joke emails.

    Obviously a crime they can prosecute from the warmth of their office.

    Will he get his DNA back and will this bar him from working with Children.

    I bet it will. Not so funny now eh.

    The Police on somebody's side..... Just not ours

  9. Julian I-Do-Stuff
    FAIL

    Hmmmm

    Does that mean if I watched it with the sound off it would be "extreme porn".... but not if I turned it on? What if I can't hear? Can I be arrested, charged and convicted for being deaf?

    BTW... since it's all above board now, can you get hold of a copy so that we can see just how idiotic the whole situation is (as though any further evidence were necessary....)

  10. Jerry 8
    Paris Hilton

    Duhhh

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/Design/graphics/icons/comment/paris_hilton_32.png

    Can they really be so thinc they didn't think to turn the volume up?

    And - if it is not extreme with the sound track - then how could it be extreme with no track - this just does not make sense.

    Paris - because she knows about soundtracks on porn

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Surreal

    It's quite incredible just how much this government has turned against it's own people.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Unhappy

    Damn google

    I tried to find the vid using "tiger apparently having sex with a women"

    All I got returned were pictures of a bloody golfer!!

  13. JohnG

    The police and CPS need more useless laws like this..

    ..to avoid the prospect of meeting any real criminals and ensure they are further isolated from the population who pays their wages.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Unhappy

    No doubt

    No doubt he's been fingerprinted, had his DNA and photograph taken and stored...

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The Sword and The Stone

    It's on iplayer at the moment - things get hot and bothering between female squirrels and humans temporarily shape-shifted into squirrels (one of them a minor) as quite a long sequence of the movie - is this suspect?

  16. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    What if...

    I don't like somebody, and I send them this video clip to their mobile (without the sound track of course)? Even if they don't get convicted, the prosecution will do more than enough enough damage to their reputation, job, and family life. Obviously they may still go on the sex offender's register and will never pass a CRB check again.

    Great law if you have axes to grind. Anonymous just in case you didn't like me...

  17. Jelliphiish
    FAIL

    codecs

    they haven't installed k-lite on the police systems yet..

  18. Jerome 0

    The other clip

    What's in the second clip, a woman having an orgy with Snap, Crackle and Pop?

  19. TeeCee Gold badge
    Coat

    Can I just say.

    "....still faces a charge of possession of extreme porn in respect of the second video clip..."

    Smutty video, or it didn't happen.

    The long brown mac with the ice cream stains please.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Linux

    So if there's no case to answer...

    Where's the link then???

    Penguin because there's no tiger icon.

  21. Peter Kay

    Here's eagerly waiting on March 17th..

    'Following the reviewing of CuniculusHunt.avi, our rating of 'beastility with the inappropriately headweared underclass' has been downgraded following analysis of the soundtrack where the animated participant is heard to utter 'ehhhh What's up Doc?''

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Joke

    When asked for a reaction, Andrew Robert Holland said

    Its Grrrrrrrreeeeeeeaaaaatttt!

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    Comedy "Loophole"?

    What's the bet that the government will automatically see this as some sort of "loophole" to be closed?

    The only way they could do that is if they effectively remove the requirement that the image in question be "pornographic" as defined in Section 63 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008:-

    "(3) An image is “pornographic” if it is of such a nature that it must reasonably be assumed to have been produced solely or principally for the purpose of sexual arousal."

    To close the "loophole" (but is it really a true loophole?), they'd have to at least water this down to something that could then cover stuff that isn't really pornographic, but which isn't proved not to be pornographic.

    Such an expansion of the extreme porn law would move the law still further into the realms of thought crime, as well as establishing guilt on the basis of speculation. And, of course, the burden of proof would shift away from the prosecution and onto the defendant.

    What does "justice" minister Maria Eagle, MP, have to say?

  24. Ian Tresman

    Animated image

    "The tiger, according to Mr Holland, was an animated image"

    Are the police and prosecution blind too?

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Animated image

      Doesn't matter - animated images create a demand for real tigers to be abused in this way.

      Won't somebody think of the cubs

  25. Andy 115
    FAIL

    Lack of Evidence Control

    "she claimed that when the case was previously reviewed the film had no soundtrack"

    That implies that they mustn't have very good control of "evidence" if a piece of criminal evidence can suddenly be "replaced" with something different - or (as others have pointed out) the CPS are just muppets.

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Police porn

    So the police and CPS f**k a law-abiding citizen. Sounds like extreme porn to me.

  27. ShaggyDoggy

    Tiger

    Is a video of a tiger having sex with a tiger legal ?

    (assuming one of them isn't a minor)

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Joke

    April Stevens in trouble too?

    A woman having sex with a tiger is outlawed unless it is comical? Oh no! I am done for!

    My wife has sex with a real tiger every night, but during intercourse she really hates me being funny at the same time.

    No really, this isn't funny any more.

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    Oh - a different one...

    I thought it was going to be about that other video that the UK judge said we wern't allowed to talk about.

    Paris, obviously.

  30. The Cube
    Stop

    The CPO for the area should now face prosecution or dismissal

    The CPO should face prosecution as they are, unless they can identify the specific persons responsible, guilty of:

    1) Wasting police time

    2) Wasting the time of the CPS

    3) Perverting the course of justice

    4) Conspiracy to pervert the course of justice

    5) Malicious prosecution

    Futher all of the police involved should be immediately dismissed without benefits or pension as they are guilty of;

    1) Gross misconduct which brings the force into disrepute

    Which is all that is necessary for dismissal.

    Of course there won't be so much as a slap on the wrist for the biggest serious and organised crime organisation in the UK, the police farce, but sooner or later their empire will collapse under the weight of its own corruption.

  31. Andus McCoatover
    Joke

    Hahahahaha!

    Oh, God! Wetting my pants!

    Words almost fail me, but I suppose "Tiger again getting his wood out, and his balls in the (t)rough" will have to do for now.

    Will Tigger have to give a DNA sample, unless he's given one (or two, lucky girl) already?

    Chortle! I can barely type....

    Snap, crackle and er, pop.

    Lester - Please remove Playmobil set out of Mission Control - NOW!!!

    Dis-as-semble! (spoken in a 5-is-alive voice, natch)

  32. Jamie Kitson

    What's The Betting....

    ...they had the volume down, or just no speakers?

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why did it even get to an arrest, never mind court?

    So we're going to keep seeing people arrested for joke videos that have been sent to them, are we? This is what happens when we let the politicians think they're in charge.

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    No soundtrack...

    Or no speakers?

  35. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    The Police where attempting to pervert the course of justice.

    If the original clip submitted to the CPS had been tamperd with to remove the sound track the officer/officers involved where attempting to pervert the course of uststice and should have been arrestet their and then in the court room.

  36. LuMan
    Go

    PLAYMOBIL CONSTRUCTION!!!!

    Go on - you know you want to!

  37. Graham Marsden
    FAIL

    Did the even read their own bloody law...???

    From the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008:

    Section 63 Possession of extreme pornographic images:

    An image falls within this subsection if it portrays, in an explicit and realistic

    way, any of the following—

    (d) a person performing an act of intercourse or oral sex with an animal

    (whether dead or alive), AND A REASONABLE PERSON LOOKING AT THE IMAGE WOULD THINK THAT ANY SUCH PERSON OR ANIMAL WAS REAL!

    (My emphasis)

    Forget about the sound-track, how the F**K can anyone be so stupid as to try to prosecute for an ANIMATED image under this law???

    How much public money has been wasted on what appears to have been an act of sheer childish pettiness on the part of the Police? "Ok, so we can't do him for what we arrested him for, let's trawl through his computer and see if there's anything we can stitch him up for..."

    This sort of fishing expedition is just one of the many potential abuses of this law that some of us were pointing out to MPs and Lords before the Government forced this nonsense through Parliament.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Stop

      Real Person? What About ZOMBIE PORN?!?

      As you quoted, "and a reasonable person looking at the image would think that any such person or animal was real."

      How did the police and CPS interpret "person or animal"? If the person portrayed as having sex with the animated tiger appeared to be real, would that then mean the "person" part applies?

      "... a person performing an act of intercourse or oral sex with an animal (whether dead or alive), and a reasonable person looking at the image would think that any such person ... was real."

      If that's how they're interpreting it, then they might similarly attack zombie porn:-

      "(c) an act which involves sexual interference with a human corpse".

      Does a human corpse count as a person? What about the person sexually interfering with that corpse? If the person interfering with the obviously fake corpse appears to be real...

      Can we take this case as evidence that the police and CPS are trying to interpret and apply this law as broadly as possible?

  38. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    totally ridiculous

    Given what happened to myself, which basically was an attempt at a stitch up, I am not at all surprised by this current matter. Of course the Police knew of the soundtrack ,but would not bother to tell anyone,not least the defence. So what they NOW seem to be saying is, "if you have the soundtrack on the clip you are NOT committing an offence, BUT if you do NOT have the sound track on you ARE committing an offence" . Totally ludicrous and shows me yet again how F'd up this Country is.

  39. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    It's strange .....

    that considering the effort the police put in to detect "sexual" offences that in the past 25 years they haven't managed a single prosecution for FGM, although several thousand girls suffer this barbaric "cultural" mutilation in the UK every year.

  40. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    BS Corporate 'law', not Common Law!

    The bloke should have declared himself a freeman, explicitly not consented to the statute(s) for this victimless 'crime', and refused to sign anything!

    Anything done by a consenting adults cannot be classed as a genuine crime, unless the Common Law requirements of harm, hurt, or loss are caused by their actions.

    Statutes only _contractually_ apply, if you consent to them, period!

  41. Steve Evans
    Paris Hilton

    Stand by...

    Any time now they'll be a new law along...

    Possessing Extreme porn offensive to deaf people.

    Paris, no explanation required.

  42. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    I wonder if...

    This kind of article really angers me. As someone pointed out, there is a lot more really bad stuff going on in the country that the police would do well to turn their attention towards. But, I wonder if the only reason that they paid attention to the tiger video was because the other video that he is still being prosecuted for had something very wrong going on in it.

    Obviously just speculation, but it might be the explanation.

  43. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Bad Law....

    ... by a bad government in a knee jerk reaction to a crime that is so rare it's inconsequential.

    A complete waste of time. The word "Bandwagon" comes to mind.

    Roll on the election.

  44. Bounty

    Comedy "Loophole"?

    So does this make Lisa Simpson porn ok again if it's funny?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Happy

      Very Good Question!

      That's a very good question!

      From the extreme porn law, Section 63 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008:-

      "(3) An image is “pornographic” if it is of such a nature that it must reasonably be assumed to have been produced solely or principally for the purpose of sexual arousal."

      From the cartoon porn law, Section 62 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009:-

      "(3) An image is “pornographic” if it is of such a nature that it must reasonably be assumed to have been produced solely or principally for the purpose of sexual arousal."

      Well, well, they're identical!

      That would seem to suggest (but IANAL) that whatever pornographic "loopholes" exist for one would tend to exist for the other.

      This makes me very happy. Not because I want to possess cartoon child porn, but because I oppose these insane laws on sound civil liberties grounds. It's delicious to see them begin to fail so soon.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Joke

        is it just me...

        ... or is the acronym I ANAL a cause for mild hilarity in a comment about porn, extreme or otherwise?

  45. Pablo

    Hang on...

    I could have sworn the extreme porn law only covered realistic images. Was this tiger really so skillfully rendered that the fabled "reasonable person" would have been fooled?

    1. Dave Bell
      FAIL

      CGI Porn

      Unless you have professional-level software and skills, there are all sorts of possible clues for somebody who has a little experience to pick out. There's a lot of CGI porn out there, and if you don't allow yourself to be overwhelmed by a shock reaction, you can spot the giveaway details

      They wouldn't want me on a jury.

      In this case, the tiger has fur, and that's hard to make look real. The light acts differently, and the outer surface moves differenty to skin. And I'd bet the woman was faked too, It's possible I'd recognise the CGI model.

      In this case, I wouldn't want to rely on the sound track as a defence. But I can't see how the Police could have NOT passed the soundtrack to the CPS with the video, without altering the evidence. Oh dear, lawyers don't like that. And this could mess up everything they're investigating on the computer.

  46. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    Let me get this straight

    The article says: "Andrew Robert Holland of Coedpoeth near Wrexham appeared at Mold Crown Court on New Year's Eve to answer two charges of possessing extreme porn. Both charges related to video clips sent to him by friends"

    So he wound up in court because of something that someone else had sent to him?

    Maybe this tactic could be used against politicians.

  47. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    How do I go about reporting a lying lawyer?

    Or at least one who misleads a judge in court.

    "Questioned by the Judge, John Rogers QC, she claimed that when the case was previously reviewed the film had no soundtrack."

    If it had no soundtrack previously, then evidence has been tampered with. If it had soundtrack, but she simply had the volume turned down then the above claim would be as ficticious as claiming that a DVD has no soundtrack, simply cos they had the volume turned down.

    Seriously how do I go on trying to create as much hassle for all the people involved in this as possible?

  48. Anonymous Coward
    Megaphone

    Er...

    ... aren't we overlooking something here? It was a *TIGER* having sex with a woman. A TIGER!

    Of course it was a f*ing animation or else that woman would have been mincemeat in about two seconds. Blimey, they wouldn't even have that sort of act at a Billy Smart circus.

  49. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    What's the betting

    that the other video is disgustingly icky male / female sex rather than the normal male / ewe sex South Wales Police enjoy

  50. Christoph
    Black Helicopters

    Watch out for more prosecutions

    There's a widely distributed series of "children's" books which contain scenes of a tiger 'bouncing' various other animals and a minor child. There are many other scenes in the books which when analysed are very clearly sexual in nature. For more details see "The Pooh Perplex" by Frederick Crews.

  51. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    The ink blot test

    Don't under any circumstances take an ink blot test. YOU might see a minor having sex, then you'll have to go on the sex offenders register. No living or dead person was involved, but according to this stupid law your life will be ruined.

    I pray for the revolution....

  52. pphammer
    Pint

    a new breed of great cats perhaps

    So we finally have a woman-eating tiger?

  53. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Strange

    Strange. When I recently had a hundred quids worth of logs (wood fuel) stolen, North Wales Police didn't want to know. Perhaps I should have reported it as naughty videos.

  54. Adam Spade

    Big Cat

    Biggest Cat i have ever seen on a woman !!

  55. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    WTF??

    This country has gone totally F**k**g mad! surely the Tiger would be more interested in eating her rather than f**k**g her?

    God help us if this moronic government get in again.

  56. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Unhappy

    I'm pretty sure I have comics of Tank Girl doing a kangaroo

    ....they don't have a soundtrack.

    Also, are images of people of the furry persuasion now off-limits, too?

    1. CD001

      Kangaroo

      Isn't a weird manimal mutant kangaroo at that?

  57. Pete 8
    Go

    Well then

    so it follows the same logic that:

    when encountering comical farce, the disregard option is preferrred.

    [fingers in ears]

    LALALALALALALA - I CANT HEAR YOU!

    I wish Lisa Simpson was 27.

  58. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    Not Bony the Tiger?

    Type your comment here — plain text only, no HTML

  59. Allan George Dyer Silver badge
    IT Angle

    Golf connection?

    Was I the only one to see the headline and assume Mr. Woods was involved?

  60. Andy ORourke
    Happy

    Nice Pun on the lat line of the article :-)

    "Mr Holland still faces a charge of possession of extreme porn in respect of the second video clip: that charge will be heard in court on 17 March. "

    Assuming of course they turn the speakers on this time :-)

  61. ShaggyDoggy

    Previous

    "I wonder if the only reason that they paid attention to the tiger video was because the other video that he is still being prosecuted for had something very wrong going on in it"

    Exactly - then when the March trial comes up, they can say he's got a previous, and make the sentence all the more severe. I suspect that the March one is actually a bit flimsy, and needed this tiger one to 'bolster it up'

  62. mmiied
    Unhappy

    importent questions to anser

    1. as I read this the police confsated his computer equipment and then found these and proscuated him for them I rember reading that our elected politations said that this law would not be used as a "booby prise" for police in this way

    2. it would be intresting to know where the sound was removed form the clip if it was between the police and the CPS then there are very importent questions to anser (in resoince to my fellow comantards Irefuse to beleve somone reviewing a clip for a case would not notice that there sound was off)

    3. how did an animated tiger clip come to be concidered real enought for proscitation?

    4. (related to 2) what where they fishing for in teh first place

    in short these are the same or simular questions we failed to get ansers to when they proposed the law

  63. Anonymous Coward
    Grenade

    woman sex with dog

    Does this count?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZDpJ06skzE&feature=related

  64. Jo 5
    Megaphone

    2 girls 1 cup

    is the 2 girls 1 cup video (i have purposfully never viewed this myself) extreme porn? Its sounds so from those youboob reaction videos and other peoples comments on it.

    Two hundred years on and it still seems we are enforcing Victorian values on the populance.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      Most Probably Not, But Goatse Might

      Nothing happens in 2girls1cup that comes under any of the following in subsection (7) of Section 63 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008:-

      "(7) An image falls within this subsection if it portrays, in an explicit and realistic way, any of the following—

      (a) an act which threatens a person’s life,

      (b) an act which results, or is likely to result, in serious injury to a person’s anus, breasts or genitals,

      (c) an act which involves sexual interference with a human corpse, or

      (d) a person performing an act of intercourse or oral sex with an animal (whether dead or alive),

      and a reasonable person looking at the image would think that any such person or animal was real."

      2girls1cup is almost certainly safe (but IANAL).

      In contrast, goatse might be found to portray "an act which results, or is likely to result, in serious injury to a person’s anus". So if it also counts as "pornographic" and "grossly offensive, disgusting or otherwise of an obscene character", then goatse would count as extreme porn.

      But extreme foot fetish porn, featuring the smashing of feet with a sledge hammer, would still be legal to possess, as long as the smashing of the feet doesn't constitute "an act which threatens a person’s life".

      Also legal to possess would be those images which don't appear to be pornographic, but which would be sexually arousing to those with relevant fetishes (but be careful about the context you keep such images in, since that can be used as evidence that such images are "pornographic"). So if you've got a decapitation fetish, you could legally possess images of people being decapitated, or who have been decapitated, as long as those images would appear non-pornographic to most people. But to the decapitation fetishist, such images might be the most delicious porn.

      That, of course, is a massive failure in this extreme porn law - it only criminalises possession of images that are ordinary enough in their pornographic nature for ordinary juries to recognise as "pornographic"!

  65. Mark .

    Rat Book

    This guy is listed on that Rat Book site ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/12/10/name_shame_website/ ), tagged with Animal Cruelty and Pervert, despite being found not guilty, and there being no question of animal cruelty ("OMG Please Won't Someone Think Of Tony The Tiger!")

    I too hope they get sued for libel...

  66. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The title is required, and must contain letters and/or digits.

    Well he's certainly screwed now if he ever requires a CRB check.

  67. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sheltered lives

    We can only wonder what kind of anally-retentive lives these CPS goons live, if this sort of thing gets their knickers in a twist. Whatever the letter of the law, it takes a special kind of sad jobsworth to take something like this all the way to a prosecution without looking in the mirror and asking "what the hell am I doing with my life?"

    You really need to get out more, people...

  68. VulcanV5
    FAIL

    Justice Disnae Matter

    Cartoon sex.

    Cartoon Cops.

    Cartoon Justice.

    Cartoon Country.

    I was going to say 'Cartoon Government', but that long since ceased to be animated.

  69. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Loophole-Schmoophole. It's a cop out.

    When the prosecution is on flimsy ground they will often take things to court hoping to get a deal at the last minute especially if they think this sort of intimidation is likely to work. They probably offered the chap a let off with a warning if he pleaded guilty. They could then use this against him in the subsequent trial. The bloke didn't fall for it, the CPS knew they didn't stand a cat in hells chance so came up with an excuse which more than likely had been prepared in advance.

  70. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Piggy in the middle??

    no comment - for the sheep botherers of wales

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