back to article Apple gives Palm the boot - again

Apple has again kicked the Palm Pre off iTunes. Cupertino's latest update of its music management and online-sales app, iTunes 9, disables the Pre's ability to sync its music player with Apple's app. It's déjà vu all over again. Palm's sync-poaching has been an ongoing pushmi-pullyu contretemps since it was first revealed …

COMMENTS

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Jobs Horns

    The game...

    The game will go on until Palm complain to the competition commission that Apple is imposing unfair competition by locking out Palm? Seriously, do you think Apple would be happy if MS released an update every month that prevented the Crapintosh from booting Windows XP/Vista/7? No, because if MS did that, Apple would die (lets face it, people only buy mac's these days because they can run a real OS, Windows), if MS did that and locked Apple out, Apple would go off crying, but its ok for Apple to lock out competitors.

    Where the hell are the competition commission during all this anyhow? Apple is getting away with things that any other company would be fined millions daily for.

  2. François-Jean De Brienne

    Amazing wintards

    Amazing how some wintards are quick on the gun when Jobs & Co. do something? Inferiority complex, maybe?

    Let's recap for a second:

    - Palm using Apple's USB vendor ID. Check.

    - Palm breaking USB conventions it had agreed to (ie. use your own vendor ID). Check.

    - Palm goes postal and attempts to convince the USB implementers that Apple is at fault. Check.

    Are Apple obliged to let iTunes sync with any device on the market? Can and should they prevent their competition from using their own R&D investments on a media player and syncing solution?

  3. Joe 3

    Takes me back to the 90s...

    ...when Microsoft fixed Windows so that it would fail to run on anything except MS-DOS, despite there being no technical reason for it.

    At least Apple are admitting to it, however!

  4. Ian Davies
    FAIL

    @AC first post

    That post is so stuffed full of stupid it makes my brain hurt.

  5. David Austin

    title

    Sigh.

    How's this helping anyone? Pre owners et on/off support, apple are coming over as mean-spirited (And losing potential Itunes Music Store Customers), and palm must be sinking a lot of resources into keeping the thing working.

    can't we just bang their heads together, and come up with a common sense solution?

  6. raving angry loony
    Jobs Horns

    @AC 00:19GMT

    That's because Apple is FAR from being a monopoly on the desktop, whereas Microsoft has a de-facto monopoly at the moment. The rules are therefore different for the two companies.

    Although I agree that what Apple is doing is childish, immature and will probably come back to bite them in the ass, but it's been generally agreed that Apple has completely lost the plot lately, mistaking "what Apple wants" for "what customers want". They got good at the latter for a bit, then lost it again once success went to their heads. Idiots.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    Fry a few

    Probably it is time to software "update" a few Pre's. Since Palm is faking an iPod - then Apple should just trust that what is "there" is really truly there and just do a system update. Not Apple's problem they are not faking things. The system is setup for the iPod with all of the hooks for the iPod - paid for by those of us who bought iPods.... I would say that Palm is stealing from me.

  8. TJ 3
    FAIL

    Apple is only hurting itself

    Even IF the people who buy the pre just to spite the I-whatever, Apple is losing the market of what would be then potential Itunes customers. You're preventing people from accessing your cash cow. Apple makes a decent profit off its I-whatevers, yes, however, Majority of its cash flow comes from Itunes as a program, and not the devices.

    This is Just dumb on Apples part. "No, we don't want Non-fanboi's buying our other products" Honestly, has apple REALLY gotten that snotty? That makes we almost want to buy a Zune.... Almost.

  9. Jellyjazz
    Stop

    @Anonymous Coward

    "lets face it, people only buy mac's these days because they can run a real OS, Windows"

    Dear lord.

    It's vice versa! They buy them to escape the absolute nightmare that is Windows.

    I have a Q6600, 4Gb RAM, Vista Ultimate 64, 2x 8800GTX and a Striker Extreme, I still prefer my Macbook Pro for everyday use and creativity. The PC has become an oversized Xbox.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    There's more....

    It's also amusingly bricked my iphone 3G when applying the 3.1 OS update. Way to go Apple.

    Some other info here for other people in the same situation http://www.iphonefaq.org/archives/97663

    Still downloading the 3.0.1 firmware so no idea if it works.

  11. E Haines

    Why are people so stupid....

    >"Apple makes a decent profit off its I-whatevers, yes, however, Majority of its cash flow comes from Itunes as a program, and not the devices."

    That's exactly wrong. The majority of their cash flow does come from the devices. iTunes just about breaks even and is only there to sell iPods and iPhones.

    Palm can do what RIM does with their BlackBerry Media Sync program. Namely, it makes use of the XML file of your library that iTunes generates expressly for the purposes of interoperability (this file is not used by iTunes itself). Apple is so obviously in the right in this case (it happens sometimes!) that even the idiots should be able to see it.

  12. Christian Berger

    But... it's a Mac

    If you want to sync your MP3 collection can't you just use rsync?

  13. Dana W
    Jobs Halo

    Anon losers.

    Notice 99% of the trash talk and fud is from anon posters?

    These are the same guys who used to troll usenet. Most of them don't even care about what they are saying, they just like to make people mad. Give them all the attention they deserve.

    None at all.

    We know where the sales are, we know where the stock is, and we know where the market is shifting. The WIN is just beginning. And I don't mean Windows.

    This is the real start for all of us, OSX AND Linux. People are finally waking up. Its been a long wait, but its here.

  14. Ty
    Jobs Halo

    @Dana

    Absolutely right Dana. The dumbass Windoze zealots days are numbered and their frantic squealing is proof. The dark days of Windows mediocrity are coming to an end.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @ George Schultz

    Quote "Probably it is time to software "update" a few Pre's."

    That's a good point. These things are claiming to the hardware and to the OS that they are iPods, so what happens to them if Apple needs to release a firmware update for their own iPods to fix some bugs? It wouldn't be their fault if the Pré was bricked by it as Palm is doing all it possibly can to ID them as actually being iPods so what is there to stopthem from being treated as such?

  16. Gareth Irwin

    Seems real simple to me

    Its a software programme to be used with the apple ipod, its free and supplied by apple.

    Its up to the who they let sync to it, no competition commission need be involved. If palm are unhappy about it, then they should develop their own free software service.

  17. Chris Miller
    FAIL

    Here come the fanbois

    @raving angry loony: "That's because Apple is FAR from being a monopoly on the desktop, whereas Microsoft has a de-facto monopoly at the moment. The rules are therefore different for the two companies."

    But the topic under discussion is not the desktop, it's digital music players and mobile phones that perform the same job. Not so easy to argue that Apple doesn't hold a dominant (if not a monopoly) position in /this/ market is it?

    @E Haines: you're confusing cash-flow and profit. You don't explain how you know that Apple "just about breaks even" on iTunes (do you work in their finance department?) but if they can't make a decent profit from what they charge per track, they're a lot less competent than I take them to be.

  18. Dave 142

    the issue

    It's not that Apple won't let you sync with iTunes, it's just that if you want to do that you can write your own software, as Blackberry have done.

  19. Steve Adams
    Linux

    @Dana W - Agree re Trolls + Thoughts on Apple/Palm

    Completely agree - re trolls.

    Just n case there's anyone here at El Reg who didn't learn this part of (what used to be called?) netiquette...:

    When somebody behaves poorly (Trolls) in order to get attention - it's best not to reward that poor behaviour with the attention they seek - which surely only promotes more poor behaviour.

    Regarding Apple's behaviour and Palm's response:

    Apple's attitudes on DRM and lock-in are shocking.

    So many punters appear to not notice or care (mainstream non-geeks mostly I expect) and I guess no know better - understandable.

    That so many tech-savvy punters (who really should know better and should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves) are happy to sell out (their freedom to chose) for the lovely-shiney techy gadgets (they are lovely objects - if expensive) still surprises me.

    Palm: I still use an old Palm every day - I'm awaiting an Android phone which is.. you know... "right" (e.g. a Hero fixed with enough RAM or something similar) but Palm lsot me a while ago with their new focus/attitude. I don't see the long-term benefits in trying to take some of the iPhone market away from apple when they could offer a real alternative.

    Why promote iTunes at all - why not promote an alternative?

    Leave the Apple lovers to their iTunes store and restrictive iTunes app - they seem to like it and appear to believe it's good value.

    Why not partner with someone else (music stores/services) and offer something different (better in some ways)?

    Why not adopt (and adapt/improve?) and promote an open source music app?

    It's probably worth Palm continuing the iTunes-sych arms-race just to stay in the news I suppose.

    Sighs...

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Jobs Horns

    Re: The dumbass Windoze zealots days are numbered

    Actually, I really like Windows 7 so I'd say that's at least another three years of happy computing.

    Good on Palm for helping out the consumer and allowing us to do something - after all, isn't the customer the most important person?

    @Dana W: "People are finally waking up. Its been a long wait, but its here."

    Yes, I agree with your words, but not the context. People are waking up, yes. But only waking up to choice and freedom, which, it appears, Apple do not embrace. Who's the losers in that situation? Fanbois and Apple, in my opinion.

    PS: I actually really like Palm, and I like the fact that they too have woken up and given us a choice.

  21. deshepherd

    @Seems real simple to me

    So if its just a software program design to be used with the iPod then why does Apple attempt to get me (or anyone else who doesn't own an iPod) to download and install it when I want to install quicktime?

  22. Adam T

    LOLS

    Does anyone here actually *own* a PRE? And so does anyone really give a monkey's at the end of the day?

  23. dave 46

    Apple is clearly abusing it's position

    If Apple didn't make an mp3 player do you think for one second that i-tunes would not support everything on the market as well as possible?

    Of course it would, it's competitive advantage to give your users the best experience. That they don't, and openly block other devices from syncing as completely as their own mp3 players do is a clear abuse of their position as number one digital music seller.

    I know Microsoft, Intel, and whoever else have done the same, maybe even worse, but they've never been so obvious about it, and they've been smacked down when caught.

    Observing it with no real interest (I only use CDs) I just find it odd that Apple hasn't caught the eye of any regulators yet (aside from the eu pricing thing).

    Seriously - if Microsoft kept releasing patches to do nothing more than stop firefox running on windows, do you think they'd get away with it?

  24. Rod MacLean
    Flame

    @Chris Miller

    Chris Miller wrote: "Not so easy to argue that Apple doesn't hold a dominant (if not a monopoly) position in /this/ market is it?"

    Apple's iPod may still reign supreme but iTunes stores MP3s and so the library can be transferred to any device.

    You're not the only one that fails to grasp that any MP3 file in iTunes is just that - an MP3 file. If you want to copy it to your MP3 player then you can. Usually the manufacturer of said MP3 player will give you some kind of software for this. In this case, Palm is trying to leverage from Apple's software. That's quite naughty in itself but doubly so when you consider that Apple conveniently make an XML file detailing the contents of the iTunes library solely to allow non-Apple software to know what's in there.

  25. Bilgepipe
    Jobs Halo

    @raving angry loony

    "...what Apple is doing is childish, immature and will probably come back to bite them in the ass..."

    NO, you got that the wrong way round. What Palm is doing is childish and immature, and is also disallowed under USB licensing. They are not supposed to be using another vendor's ID, and given that their "complaint" to the USB-IF has gone very, very quiet, I suspect they've been told so in no uncertain terms. Hence, it came back to bite them in the ass.

    Pity the Anti-Apple-tards on here still can't obtain basic facts before posting.

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    ...angry old gits and their Apple-related insecurity aside..

    The thing that bothers me is the idea of buying a device where the manufacturer CBA to support it themselves. Palm aren't exactly some plucky little startup, and should either pay their dues and license it, support an open source developer, or have something written for themselves.

    I certainly wouldn't want to spend a small fortune on one of their devices on the basis that it could ponce off iTunes, some of the time.

  27. Adam Salisbury
    Grenade

    @ Ty

    Way to dump on an otherwise good arguement, sounding slightly fanboiesque yourself there. The OSWars so many trolls and fanbois perpetually wage will never be won by any one OS, but I suppose it's too boring to try and reiterate the reality that they all have strengths and weaknesses of their own and none of them have yet come close to satisfying everyone.

    Regarding the article, I'm with Apple on this, it's their online store and they can they do what they like to it in order to, as I assume they'll say, control the quality of the experience. Whether they're losing business or not is largely irrelavant.

  28. Rob Kidd
    WTF?

    Why on earth would you even want to use iTunes?

    I only use it because I'm forced to by my iPhone.. Getting music on and off the phone with more than one computer is not even worth trying. If there was any other way to get data on and off my phone, I would drop iTunes in a second.

    And they're saying Pre owners actually want to use iTunes?? Folly, I tell thee.

  29. Simon Buttress
    FAIL

    @ Dana W & Ty

    Sheeeeeit. It's posts like yours that really scare me. You sound like glazed eye religious zealots hellbent on the non-existence of any OS except your fabtabulous Apple (and Linux). Fanbois to the max!! Really, swap "Windows" for "Christianity" and swap "OSX AND Linux" for Islam or Judaism or indeed Scientology and read your posts back to yourselves out loud.

    PS It's all about choice, if people want to use something else, e.g. Windows, then its their choice, you have no right to deny them that even if it makes you laugh that they use it.

    Not posted Anon, as I'm not a coward to point out and illustrate the frankly scary and offputting quasi-religious zealotry of mouth frothing glazed eye tambourine bashing Applets

  30. Ascylto
    Jobs Halo

    @ Anonymous Coward 00:19 GMT

    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

    And for breakfast this morning I had two HW23a tablets and a lovely drink of 342.

    I went to work on my Dringod 350 Squricycle and my Boss gave me a salary raise of 45 skrimbles per month!

    Wife No5 has complained that our children aren't getting the right education on Zarg 4 and wants them back. I explained they can't come back until they're 46 yargs old.

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    @AC first post

    Way to go mate; as an impression of a swivel-eyed septic from one of the red states, that's a really first class rant. I'm frankly astonished you didn't manage a line or two about commie sympathisers (that'll be the competition commission, bastards, aren't they?) trying to subvert good freedom loving windoze users. Never mind, I'm sure you've a wide circle of knuckle-dragging mates (Gates fanatics all) to express the more pithy of your clearly enunciated and Right minded opinions to.

    Paris; not quite that irritating

  32. Peter Methven
    Happy

    iTunes isn't supplied with iPods

    I've got to disagree with a few posts here:

    1. Apple may not have a monopoly on operating systems on computers, but I would argue they DO have a monopoly on "paid for" music downloads.

    2. iTunes isn't supplied with iPods, you have to go and download it from the Apple website and, iTunes functionality still functions if you do not own a iPod. I question the assumption that iTunes and iPods are the "same product" that is just very effective marketing from Apple.

    That being said Apple make the software, they can do what they want, especially as no one is paying for the software "directly". If apple choose to make iTunes not work with any other products (or their own) that is their right at the moment until a monopoly comission decides they are a monopoly.

  33. Les Matthew

    @raving angry loony

    "That's because Apple is FAR from being a monopoly on the desktop, whereas Microsoft has a de-facto monopoly at the moment."

    What about being a near monopoly in online music sales?

  34. John Sanders
    Alert

    Itunes flashing pre's

    Quote "Probably it is time to software "update" a few Pre's."

    Quote "That's a good point. These things are claiming to the hardware and to the OS that they are iPods, so what happens to them if Apple needs to release a firmware update for their own iPods to fix some bugs? It wouldn't be their fault if the Pré was bricked by it as Palm is doing all it possibly can to ID them as actually being iPods so what is there to stopthem from being treated as such?"

    Oh come on, just imagine leaving your pre hooked to Itunes, then going to bed, waking up in the morning just to find out that instead of your pre there is an ipod touch occupying its place.

    Dear lord...

  35. Gulfie
    WTF?

    @E Haines

    Let me get this straight. You are suggesting it cost over $800 million A QUARTER (http://www.betanews.com/joewilcox/article/Apple-Q3-2009-by-the-numbers/1248218543) to run the iTunes store last year? I don't think so... please supply some evidence to back up this ridiculous statement.

    You are also forgetting the fundamental Apple business model. It's not just about selling the device, its about selling something that has provides downstream revenue once the device has been purchased. Which is why the iPhone can only get applications through Apple, why the Apple TV only supports Apple video formats and replaying content from your iTunes library or bought direct, and why the i-whatever-it-will-be-called tablet will most likely be locked down too. And IMHO likely to be a poor seller if that is the case.

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A simple solution....

    Next pre update Palm should generate arandom apple USB code. if it blocks reconnect and another code generated.

    Even better make the list of codes from current apple products :)

  37. Darren B 1

    Licence?

    Am I missing things here but don't companies have to licence the ability to sync with Windoze Media Player? So why should Palm not have to licence connectivity from Apple? If apple are not interested in Licencing then boo hoo!

  38. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    Yawn... Apple zealots

    Yawn. So Dana W is a real name as it Ty ehh? Why do all the Apple zealots come out and "windoze" this and "M$" that when El Reg print any article about Apple? You're like the cocks that buy Audis, great cars but driven by cocks so Audi = cocks' car.

    This article is not about Windows, Microsoft, Xbox or Apple's laptops. Can't you people read?

    Some of you should read your posts before hitting the send button. I mean who'd cop to having purchased "Q6600, 4Gb RAM, Vista Ultimate 64, 2x 8800GTX" what a waste of money - bet you brag about your 1000W power supply too, do you have LEDs on your fans? You clearly know nothing about computers so your comments about how much better your MacBook is are dumb (you bought it) moreover moot because this is a comments page about iTunes & Pre.

    For those that read Apple in the title then clicked straight on comment link, this is a story about the continuing saga of Apple the school bully who picks on little companies and tries to control the school playground. When a bigger boy comes over and clouts them round the ear they run off to teacher and cry "anti-trust".

    There is a simple check - if you can't spell Microsoft, Windows, Apple etc. and really feel the need to add tard to any word you want then you shouldn't be posting. You highlight yourselves as idiots & you mar the Apple/RIM/whatever brand you're so keen to defend.

    Sadly though as you have all already shown that you are idiots this will no doubt fall on deaf ears & I'll get some personal abuse thrown at me - only strengthens my case though.

  39. Paul E

    @ty

    "The dark days of Windows mediocrity are coming to an end."

    Indeed, I believe its only a few weeks until we get windows 7 :)

  40. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @ Chris Miller

    Quote: "But the topic under discussion is not the desktop, it's digital music players and mobile phones that perform the same job. Not so easy to argue that Apple doesn't hold a dominant (if not a monopoly) position in /this/ market is it?"

    Yes it is very easy. The number of iPods/iPhones/iPod Touches sold by Apple is completely dwarfed by the number of mobile phones (alone) out there with digital music playback capability. Apple doesn't even have a fricking toehold on the digital music player market when looked at from your perspective. It is hardly Apple's fault that 99.9% of those other devices are utterly shite at the task, but it doesn't magically make them disappear as music players. Apple has no monopoly, nor a dominant position, on either the MP3/MP4 player market OR the digital music market.

  41. jai

    preTunes

    why doesn't Palm care enough about it's users to build a proper method of syncing their music? instead of having to resort to skullduggery and all this cat and mouse

    apple aren't loosing that much buisness - the number of Pre users are miniscule compared to ipod users

    it's Palm that are risking loosing customers because people will eventually get annoyed with all this mucking about and go and get themselves an Android or RIM phone instead (because, presumably, they're anti-iPhone types and the Pre's iTunes compatibility was not the reason they went with it)

  42. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @ Chris Miller 2

    "but if they can't make a decent profit from what they charge per track, they're a lot less competent than I take them to be."

    It is a well known fact that of each $0.99 per track the music labels get two-thirds of it (and this is the same or similar for other music stores). Apple has to pay for the iTunes Store infrastructure with the rest and make whatever profit they can. Likewise, for the App store, Apple receives less than a third of the revenue.

    However, E. Haines is wrong - Apple has been making a healthy profit from the iTunes store for a while now, even before the App store started (I imagine it is considerably healthier since the App store due to the margins). It just isn't a massive amount of profit.

  43. Matt White 1
    FAIL

    Let's see...

    Software updates which do nothing for your customers who also own your hardware, but do lock out your customers who use another manufacturer's hardware? Idiocy.

    Seriously, why is there any debate about this? It does nothing for their own hardware customers.

  44. Anonymous Coward
    Jobs Halo

    Apple are not blocking access to the iTunes library

    Oh for goodness' sake. This is nothing to do with Apple abusing a non-existent monopoly. Your iTunes library is just MP3 files on a hard disk which can be accessed by anything. Apple are not preventing that in any way! The problem is just that Palm are too lazy or crap to write their own interface software so they're trying to piggyback on iTunes instead. Why shouldn't Apple stop them from doing that? No reason that I can see.

  45. Tone

    Itunes Profit/Monopoly

    @E Haines

    >>That's exactly wrong. The majority of their cash flow does come from the devices. iTunes just

    about breaks even and is only there to sell iPods and iPhones<<

    Apple Apparently Turned $570 Million Profit from ITunes Last Year

    http://www.wired.com/listening_post/2008/03/apple-apparentl/

    Itunes is a monopoly but there is nothing illegal about apple having a monopoly, for instance apple controls %80 of the the UK digital music market but its not breaking any laws.

  46. Steve Adams
    Linux

    Re: Apple are not blocking access to the iTunes library.. by yet another Anonymous Coward

    You say:

    "The problem is just that Palm are too lazy or crap to write their own interface software so they're trying to piggyback on iTunes instead. Why shouldn't Apple stop them from doing that?"

    I say:

    Why would anyone chose to use, support and endorse (by their use) a company (in this case Apple) and product (in this case iTunes app) which actively tries to restrict what YOU do with YOUR data/content on YOUR computer(s) and device(s)?

    Answers:

    - they don't understand they have choices/don't know any better - fair enough - hard to educate everyone

    - they don't value that freedom (of choice) so don't care - I find that hard to understand - but that's true for lots of the choices made by the people I share the planet with :-)

    - they understand but think it's a good idea to actively or passively cede their freedoms to big corporations - OUCH! that's scary.

    - mmmmmmmmm shiny nice lovely thing... can't think about anything beyond the shiny thing.. look at th UI.... mmmmmm love the shinyness.. and the ease of use.. it just plugs in.... where do i sign... just there.... and i can keep the shiny thing... it's so pretty.... other choices...? no i don't need other choices your shiny things are the best ones... why do i need to think about other choices... when i can have this shiny thing... it's sooooo lovely......

    sighs again.

  47. Swarthy
    WTF?

    @ iTunes MP3 files

    Maybe I've been out of the loop for a while, being that I've only tried to use iTunes once, several years back, when the iPod classic was simply the iPod; but dosen't iTunes *not* do MP3s, but rather AAC?

    I seem to remember a certain amount of celebration when the iPod could finally support MP3s (about 3 generations in?)

  48. rincewind
    Thumb Up

    Ongoing saga.

    It seems the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards.

    Checkmate.

  49. Craig 28

    Actually

    iTunes is handy for obtaining music which is otherwise difficult to obtain. I had been using HMV in the UK, but they jus won't work with IE8 which I didn't realise... and I refuse to downgrade back to 6. They also won't work with anything other than IE 6/7.

    Have to agree that they should just use the XML file, and this is all a load of ridiculous fuss. That said I'm dead set against the app store and anything of the kind. Apple are as bad as MS and other companies, only they manage to avoid scrutiny somehow. Combination of their smaller size and better PR in my opinion. None of the companies of that kind are good or have our best interests at heart, it would be naive to believe so.

    As to how many phones exist with digital music players, how many people bother using them? How many people use their phones for more than calls and texts, even though they might have mobile internet access, music player, camera (alright more people use cacmeras than the other things...) or whatever else is included. It is to the point where people call personal music players "iPods", and when I mentioned MP3 players to a friend she actually asked "is that like an iPod?"...`

  50. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    A "solution" to this, would be...

    How about a windows-update that blocks apples usb-vid to appear in the enumeration, and at the same time block the MAC-adress of apple's NIC's from communicating with any windows version from Win2K and up?

    Would that suite the iUnwashed?

  51. Richard 102

    @Swarthy

    iTunes started as SoundJam (who else here used that?) in the OS9, maybe OS8 days. It was MP3-oriented from the word go.

    My own feeling is that Palm is being, at best, slippery. If they want to use the iTunes set-up, fine. It's a directory structure of MP3/AAC files, organized with an XML file. Sending the wrong USB ID to claim you are an iPod? Mm, sorry. That opens up a can of security worms, to be honest.

  52. Robert Forsyth

    This way Palm Pre get more publicity

    Yes the sensible thing would be to create your own download app, and better than that awful iTunes, but what publicity would that get you?

    Some iPods do not appear as storage devices, so you cannot load them from Linux.

  53. Andrew 31
    WTF?

    @Swarty

    What? No. The iPod has played normal MP3 files from day 1.

  54. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @Steve Adams

    Try actually reading my comment properly. I explained that Apple are NOT blocking access to the iTunes library and I explained why. But if Palm want a UI in front of that library for their devices then they should write one themselves. I don't see why Apple should do Palm's work for them. But the library is there, open and available for anyone to get access to via the filesystem regardless of whether they have iTunes open or not.

  55. Michael C

    Facts

    1) NOTHING in iTunes prevents a Pre user from dowloading and listening to and managing music, nor does it force them to use a competing application to do that. iTunes simply only syncs natively with Apple devices. NOTHING in iTunes prevents music files from being used with non-apple devices (now that DRM is gone) so long as they pay license for and support the AAC file format. Non-DRM music from other sources is also fully compatible with iTunes.

    2) MANY devices use the iTunes XML database as a source of information about music, playlists, and other files managed by iTunes and use this data with THEIR OWN DRIVER to sync the device and the library. NOTHING in Apple's policies prevent plug-in applications or access to that data. I have 3 apps on my PC from 3rd parties that interface directly with iTunes (in REAL TIME), adding, moving, managing, and syncing songs. ANY company who wants preconfigured playlists and music managed by iTunes to sync to their devices CAN, though simple software...

    3) Apple offers (for reasonable fees) support for 3rd parties to support iTunes. Palm REFUSED this service, and REFUSED to write their own applications to support Apple's approved processes, and instead chose to bypass the Apple EULA, the USB spec, and more in the attempt to show up as a native managed device at no cost to themselves.

    4) It's not just an icon in the left pane of iTunes, and some syncing code Palm is abusing. When an icon lands in that pane, clicking on it opens a SLEW of other integrated software features for managing that device, sub-programs that manage how and what is sysnced, firmware patch management, battery charge states, USB disk volumes, mail, calendar, contact, and more syncing (some licensed through ADDTIONAL 3rd parties at Apple's expense) and more for those devices. APPLE is being forced to exception handle Palm's device in these screens at their own expense when features the software expects based on device IDs are not available, fail to respond, and more. Palm has provided Apple no money, no support, and only grief on this effort. The more devices palm releases, the worse this will get for Apple, and it is unnecessary.

    5) iTunes is not a monopoly, because it's NOT A WHOLE MARKET unto itself. Though they may control 80% of purchased donloads in many countries, that data is a) unrestricted, b) compatible with other players and AAC has been easily and cheaply licensed for a LONG time, c) in itself is a PIECE of the MUSIC market, which the trade of music itself would have to be prevented by apple, and they would have to actively prevent new music distributors from entering the market, which they do not. They're not the cheapest, yet people use them. They're interface is more restrictive (can't buy through a web site, only through the app), but yet people use them more. Apple has made no direct moves against Amazon, Walmart, or any other online music vendor, nor have they put up barriers to the competition entering that market. They have not comitted to exclusivity agreements with music vendors (except for some special releases, which EACH online store uses as a sales tactic). They do not imnpose strict control on the artists, nor extreme fees or other obstacles, nor penalties for choosing not to distrubute music or distributing it through multiple vendors. They are simple a vendor, a popular one, in a field of vendors where people have CHOSEN to use them, and can EASILY break away and choose someone else at ANY time. They're providing a free software package, open access, and freely licence the few technologies they're using that are not already open sourced. Even if they took over 100% of all music downloads, people would still both have the coice of acquiring media in other forms, and even if they did not, they can still use iTunes purchased media on ANY device supporting AAC. The ONLY obstacle to using a 3rd party device with an iTunes LIBRARY (which is what can be restricted as THAT is the market, the APPLICATION is NOT the market) is the inconvenience of having to use a 3rd party app to interface with the FREELY accessible XML data file. It's even completely possible to use an iPod with 3rd party syncing tools and other libraries, and it;s possible to use an iPod and iTunes without ever giving a cent to Apple (aside from CHOOSING to buy the iPod).

    It should be noted as well that Apple lobied to remove FairPlay from ALL downloads, including ringtones, movies, TV shows, and apps, but it was the MPAA who refused to allow that, and the consortium of media companies who restricted them from doing so with music for so long.

    Summary: Palm is trying to leverage Apple to support their device without paying apple to do that, is doing so using defamitory press releases, and it's completely unnecessary for it to be done. Apple is NOT a legal monopoly (note: even if they were, being a monopoly is not illegal), and does not restrict music in iTunes from being used with a Pre, they're just not required by law to make it easy, nor do it at their own expense.

  56. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    So Steve Adams...

    You'd rather have a brick with limited functionality? That's the extremely mature impression you give in your delightfully arrogant way. Why do you geeks think that pretty = bad and easy to use and intuitive = crap? You use it like a badge of honour; <comicbookguy>My Narrikson 5599 XYZ Pro 2 is both ugly and ridiculously hard to use and therefore much better than crApples iPhoney</comicbookguy>. I'd argue that the N97 is a pretty device - limited functionality mind, as is the HTC Touch 2 pro which is let down by what IMHO is the worst mobile platform on the smartphone market. I've owned a Windows Mobile device. It was shit - it needed restarting constantly and was replaced 3 times over an 18 month contract. I've owned a Blackberry. It was bland. I own and iPhone. Yes, it has its problems, but is by far and away the most usable of the three that I have experience with (2-3 more than you clearly have) _*without taking apps into account*_. Both Blackberry and WinMo really fall down here. You lot slag off the iPhone for having shite apps, what about Blackberry (limited and way overpriced) and WinMo (Loads of shite freeware, lots of way overpriced shite commercial ware and lots of viruses). Hopefully for current users, things have changed. I cannot speak for the Android based phones or the Pre, I've never owned one - sorry for showing some sort of rationality - but I will go as far to say that the Pre is arguably the shiniest, prettiest smartphone out there.

    As for Palm using iTunes, they are plainly the villain of the piece. The really should PAY APPLE FOR USING APPLE'S PROPRIETARY SOFTWARE. There are plenty of freeware and/or OSS solutions out there if they don't like that idea, the excellent Songbird for example. Or, here's a thought, they could write their own, like RIM and Microsoft have. They could really spite Apple by switching to WMP! Frankly, I don't give a fuck, so long as I don't have to read the same old fanboi rhetoric from both sides. Will you lot just shut up. You are boring....

  57. ilovemynips

    @ Adam T = Exactly what I was going to post lol

    It's still always amusing how many posts articles like this get though.

    So many Apple/iTunes haters and non-pre owners whinging about you not being able to sync a pre with iTunes. odd.

    I honestly can't see Apple back down over this, they (rightly or wrongly) usually get their way, and I back them on this occasion.

    Palm really need to just get their own app out there, maybe even with a music store of their own. Might not be financially viable for them yet, but if their phones are any good. Cash flow shouldn't be an issue for long.

    Would also like to see a post from someone who does own a Pre and actually wants to sync it with iTunes to get their thoughts on the issue (or even if it IS an issue for them)

  58. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    Freetards!

    The way I see it iTunes has two functions:

    1) It allows you to manage and view/listen to your media

    2) It allows you to manage your iPhone or iPod

    The first of those is freely available to anybody (yes, even people with a Pre). Apple manage to turn a profit from this 'free' application because anybody who can download and install it can also use their 'iTunes store' to purchase new media.

    The second is provided to those people who have spent money purchasing an iPhone or an iPod. Some of the cost of that iPhone/iPod is for the development of that interface.

    What Palm are doing is to say that because their customers can use iTunes for free to manage their media they should also be able to use it for free to manage their Palm.

    What they aren't doing is paying Apple for the development of the interface.

    They also aren't passing the savings made by not developing their own app for this on to their customers... the Pre costs about the same as an iPhone.

    Let's face it, Palm are being little more than freetards here... and like every other freetard out there, they'll bitch about the injustice of having to pay for things to anybody who will listen.

  59. Frank Bough
    WTF?

    @swarthy

    No, you're entirely wrong. iTunes / iPod have supported MP3, AIF and WAV from the very start, they also support AAC encoded files in the form of MP4, which iTunes will encode at various bitrates or losslessly as you wish. The only restriction is the DRM on some of the MP4s as downloaded from the iTunes Music Store. I have thousands of MP3s MP4s and AIF files in my iTunes library and have never purchased from the iTMS.

  60. blackworx
    WTF?

    @ Michael C

    You clearly care a little too much about this.

    The earlier commenter comparing Apple to Audi was spot on. Nice products, shame about the users.

  61. Pete 6
    Badgers

    So don't update to itunes 9?

    I havent updated my version of itunes in ages, every new release brings a raft of new useless features that I have to hack around in the registry to return to the same way of working as the previous version. You might need it if you have the latest all-singing all-dancing iPhone or iPod but version 7 works fine with my iPod classic.

    If you have a Pre don't update to 9 and it'll probably still work fine (just a guess, no actual proof of it working!)

  62. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Any closed system between industry-leading things is anti-competitive and an abuse of success

    - iPods are the overwhelmingly favourite pocket music player

    - iTunes is the overwhelmingly favourite way to buy electronic music

    if you let them become "closed", then wanting one implies having to use the other

    which will lead to no competition in either area

    exactly what Competition Commissions are allegedly here to save us from

    sure Palm are being cheeky, and wrong, but they shouldn't have to be

    it's a thousand times more important than their current cheekiness / wrongness

    open standards, kids.

  63. Mortal
    Paris Hilton

    Payback

    maybe it is payback for killing the newton...

  64. Inachu
    Thumb Up

    Hahahahahaha

    Simple fix!

    do not update your software then you can sync all you want or wait to be informed that Palm has a fix for new patch instead of patching ASAP because there is an update does not mean you should do it right away.

  65. Anonymous Coward
    Happy

    OT (and luvin it!)

    [Wild thing playing in the background (Hendrix live version if you prefer)]

    Lyrics changed to:

    Apple, I think I luv yoo

    But ah wanna know-oh fo' shoor

    !Pop!

    Yoo rock me

    [classic Wild Thing riff flows in phased with other versions from the 60's]

  66. Steve Adams
    Linux

    Ouch - I got attacked - why?

    Hi again,

    2 posters here attacked me/my comments - but I'm not sure why.

    Simon Banyard started with:

    "You'd rather have a brick with limited functionality?"

    What an odd thing to say!

    i don't understand why *anybody* would want that - and I don't understand what makes you think I'd like that.

    My main concern is not losing my freedom to use my content/data and my computers/devices. i don't want to be restricted by a big company (and their media/content partners) - that's all :-)

    Then you say:

    "Why do you geeks think that pretty = bad and easy to use and intuitive = crap?"

    Was that aimed at me?

    You missed my point - or maybe i didn't make it clear.

    My point is that I "DON'T UNDERSTAND" how people (who do or *should* know better) seem so willing to trade "FREEDOM" (of choice, to use their equipment, tools, data/content) for "shinyness" (lovely gadgets, easy to use pretty software).

    I understand that they do (friends, colleagues, relatives of mine are in that group) - and I absolutely RESPECT their right to make that choice... however I don't UNDERSTAND the choice.

    So - at no point have I intended to make a (clearly daft) statement like:

    "...think that pretty = bad and easy to use and intuitive = crap?"

    OK Simon? - apologies if I misled you :-)

    Somebody else - who likes to post as Anonymous Coward said (to me):

    "Try actually reading my comment properly. I explained that Apple are NOT blocking access to the iTunes library and I explained why."

    Which is odd... as I never contradicted that in either of my posts here... and I even sort of agreed as I previously said:

    "Why promote iTunes at all - why not promote an alternative?

    Leave the Apple lovers to their iTunes store and restrictive iTunes app - they seem to like it and appear to believe it's good value.

    Why not partner with someone else (music stores/services) and offer something different (better in some ways)?

    Why not adopt (and adapt/improve?) and promote an open source music app?"

    So Mr AC - what is it that has upset you?

    My response to your post was to say that for me... the issue (Apple/Palm not playing nice) is daft and the WRONG ISSUE. We should be asking why Palm isn't prepared to put some effort into an alternative:

    Me via avoiding iTunes

    You via utilising iTunes XML stuff

    Actually - aren't we (sort of) in agreement?

    Happy Days!

  67. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    DoubleTwist

    ... has a better UI and moves files between multiple devices - and syncs with pretty much everything, including iPods/Phones. Its free.

  68. ratfox
    Flame

    Still pissed off

    Michael C: "they're just not required by law to make it easy, nor do it at their own expense."

    If you followed, in this case, it is at their own expense that Apple is making it harder.

    It is difficult enough to get computers to do what you want already,

    without having companies stopping them ON PURPOSE from working.

    I dream of a world where companies try to make it easier for the customers...

  69. David Pickering
    Megaphone

    turdspurt

    wintards vs crapple fanbois - the clashses in the comments section are getting a little predictable now tbh! (hehe though i have in the past contributed to the nonsense with a rather malevolent intent ;)

    at the end of the day i dont think these companies and the crap they produce can really be compared - neither is better than the other - as their target audiences, at least to me, seem to be at either end of some sort of tard spectrum.

    get over it, move on - imo if you place any personal investment/interest in either company then you are a mug. get a life.

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