UK cops eye shotgun cartridge Taser The Home office has confirmed it's eyeing the Taser eXtended Range Electronic Projectile (XREP) for possible deployment with UK police forces, the Guardian reports. The XREP cartridge. Pic: Taser Taser describes the XREP as "the most technologically advanced projectile ever deployed from a 12-gauge shotgun". The company …
That's ridiculous! Leaving a suspect writing in pain for 20 seconds is even mildly acceptable to our police now? If 20 seconds doesn't seem a lot, find a clock, and count them off to yourself. That's how long you'd be electrocuted for as someone not guilty of any crime.
Yet another reason to speed up my emigration plans!
I hope that these will only be deployable with video recording of the incident and Taser 'confetti', as is the case with the hand-held units?
I'm sorry, but when we have legit protests being 'policed' by balaclava-clad thugs who have 'forgotten' to don their collar numbers, forgive me if I'm suspicious of how this will be used.
A projectile of that size accurate to 100 feet? You would have to be a damn fine shot with a shotgun to achieve that.
Pretty much the same risk as baton rounds in terms of inducing cardiac shock and heart failure from central chest impact (and the idea is to aim at centre mass as well)
As for causing "bruising" and "contusions" thats probably an understatement, you shoot someone at close range with a projectile like that you will break bones and possibly kill them as well.
Paris - an understated lethal weapon
1. How much damage would this cause if somebody were to be accidentally at a range of a few feet, perhaps by stepping into the line of fire unexpectedly?
2. Are these things reusable and if so what steps would be taken to ensure no shells are lost? Could be fun if crooks start picking them up off the floor.
3. Given the short sharp shock delivered by the current tasers why do they think they need a 20 second burst from one of these?
4. Given the number of concerns and objections raised over the existing use of Tasers shouldn't they address those before even thinking about these?
"Taser describes the XREP as "the most technologically advanced projectile ever deployed from a 12-gauge shotgun"."
Not exactly a difficult thing to do seeing shotgun projectiles are normally lumps of lead or steel.
I wonder what this munition surpassed, a slug with an integrated quartz digital clock?
Any officer who wants one should first have one used on him/her. They should be shot with one in the groin at a distance of 10' or so. If they still want one after recovering from 20 seconds of electricity to the groin, issue it to them.
AC because I don't want to be tazed, bro!
Surely, rather than the bit-of-a-mouthful TASER XREP, a simple change from 'eXtended Range Electronic Projectile' to 'Extended Range Electronic pRojectile' gives us the far more pleasing:
TASER-ERER
Also sounds a bit more friendly, I think.
That'll be £25k please, TASER marketing dept. - just pop it behind the hot water pipes, third washroom along, Victoria Station - thanks!
As well as being named like a character out of Brazil...
Quote "~I'm not saying this is risk free: it will leave potential bruising and it could cause a contusion. But when you compare it to a traditional impact munition it will be significantly less likely to cause injury and much more accurate."
Police don't normally a shoot mouthy drunk git with a kebab, but give them this munition and lets see if Manchester Police can be the first Police force to get a kebab into orbit at the same time as giving someone the 20 second smoking perm treatment.....
Mines the one with the post taser hairstyle
The only justification for such a long period of shock-dealing is to give fast-arsed cops the time to reach their victim, I'd guess.
20sec shocks + 10sec recovery before you get on your feet (if you survive at all, that is) --- so cops just have to amble at 6kph to the victim?
/beer 'coz it keeps you lithe --- 95% of removable water, all nutrition concentrated in little-weighing rest.
I had always thought that when one side developed a weapon, it was the responsibility of the other side to develop a protection from that weapon or a deterrent to prevent the use of the weapon (usually just a better weapon).
Since the Police don't seem to take too kindly to civilians carrying weapons and almost certainly are not going to be convinced much by the old "You taser me and I'll taser you" routine, that only leaves us with the option of developing a protection from the weapon.
So which of you will be the first to post a URL where I can buy a rubber-coated, bullet-proof vest which comes with a trailing ground-wire?
Let's face it, I may need it when I go shopping, the Police seem to be a "shoot first, ask questions to the corpse" type of outfit these days...
Erm.... isn't one of the problems with beanbag rounds from the States that they kill about one person a year? And that's a "soft" sock of light shot designed to knock you over, not a rather hard looking piece of plastic like the new Taser shottie cartridge. I suspect that could do more than take an eye out at shorter ranges.
As long as these are only used in a situation where the alternative is conventional ammunition seems they'd be preferable to both parties, of course as with the Taser, there has to be restraint, so prehaps issuing them to those officers who were tasing sheep might be a little foolish...
Seems to me it's a useful tool in the police toolbox, however whether the officers and the chain of command picks the right tool for the job is a matter of training rather than the tool.
>> That's how long you'd be electrocuted for as someone not guilty of any crime
Except you won't be electrocuted. Whereas, if they used actual shotgun shells, there is a reasonable chance that the end result would be the same as electrocution (i.e. you'd be dead). Besides, they don't necessarily need to shoot the suspect, they could aim it at the suspects camera and it would probably work like an EMP.
"But when you compare it to a traditional impact munition it will be significantly less likely to cause injury and much more accurate"
What munitions do standard UK police carry? Not exactly a great argument, i'm willing to bet pepper spray, regular tasers and batons do less damage than a taser fired from a shotgun.....
Besides our police haven't worked out regular tasers, let alone projectile versions. Keep your hands up (apply taser) i said keep your hands up (apply taser again) look he's resisting arrest, won't keep his hands up!
I would assume (note I in no way speak with certainty on this matter) that like the civilian tasers each shot would be good for one use and then needs to be reset at the taser factory.
It's another tool, and given the choice between getting shot in the head at 2 feet with a deer slug vs this tazer I'll probably take the tazer with the chance to live. The main catch being that like others I suspect that any police force issued with Less-Lethal weapons like this will take it as a license to use it whenever they can to avoid risk to themselves.
- if this will be another 'pilot' scheme that lasts forever..
- how many more deaths will result. as if we havn't had enough..
- now cops will all carry shotguns? how very friendly.
- what happens when a live cartrige is 'accidentally' mixed up with a zapper? kapow.
NOTE: these won't be used as a 'replacement' for buckshot. being so-called 'non-lethal' they'll be fired off with little thought, unlike live rounds
yeah. i agree with others here. every single officer planning to use one should have to be shot with it themselves first so they know exactly what they're 'administering' to others.. if they're so safe then there should be no problem with that... is it really ok otherwise? i think not.
"The premise behind the XREP is not to cause or impart physical pain, it is to cause incapacitation."
Too bad tasers are far more likely to be used for compliance than as an alternative to live ammunition. And now the coppers will have every reason to go Dick Cheney on those cranky grandmas whom hey like to show what's what.
"Less lethal" weapons are always deployed on the basis that "it's better than shooting them with a gun".
But the procedures in place for investigating a taser discharge are much much more relaxed than the procedures for investigating a fatal shooting. (And it seems even an unprovoked fatal shooting of an innocent man won't get a cop fired).
So the cops use them routinely for trivial things that couldn't possibly justify the use of a gun. They do this because it makes the cop's job easier and safer and they know there won't be repercussions. Cops have no incentive to care about the possibly innocent person they're tasering. (Of course, good cops will care and won't use tasers in this way. But in any job there are plenty of people who don't care, and need an incentive. The good cops might also get in trouble for spending an hour to talk down the guy with a knife, when they could've just spent 1 minute tasering him and then gone on to the next job).
The only solution is to refuse any deployment of tasers.
Obviously, this stuff is painful and potentially lethal. That's fine. The point isn't, and never has been, to make a weapon that's guaranteed to disable the target without pain or harm. The point is to make a weapon that will disable the target while giving a pretty good chance of not killing him. An intermediate response between a baton and a bullet.
Problems arise when police officers don't get this, and use it as if it was a baton. Better training is probably needed.
And here everyone thought I was odd to get that $180 suit of tight-weave (12mm ring from 18ga wire, about 10mm thick) aluminum chainmail in this day and age, eh? With the surcoat, skirt, and leggings, it trails along at my feet (grounding) and they all overlap providing protection from tasering all over (save hands, head) as long as I wear my standard padding under it. Fits under a jacket and jeans quite nicely, and allows you avoid knifings as well. And all weighs less than a goose-down bomber jacket.
A gold (!) wire weave in your flexible Kevlar Protestor's Special(tm) would also keep this from laying you low, chaps, with the added benefit of "surprising" anyone you might be touching or touching you...
If the police walk round with shotguns that will fire electric shocks that sound like they'll kill people, then all criminals will walk round with real guns that shoot proper bullets. End of story.
This type of thing will do nothing but make criminals carry guns. And they will shoot first. And they won't be carrying a stupid shotgun that can't hit anything. The following people will end up dying:
1) Cops.
2) Innocent people.
Notice, not criminals.
I have trouble seeing that thing actually sticking into somebody with those little prong things. Seems to me as though it would be more likely to bounce off, certainly in the case of a glancing blow which is probably the most likely scenario anyways.
I also can't imagine a lot of situations where you would be forced to incapacitate someone from 100 feet away unless that person had a gun themselves, in which case you've just started a gunfight. Certainly a shotgun firing a big, low-velocity projectile like that isn't going to be the most accurate weapon, so you've also just started a gunfight at a severe disadvantage--provided of course your intention wasn't just to make the fellow fire back at you so that your buddies can shoot him with proper guns and claim self defense.
The only scenario where I could see these things being genuinely effective is if you're trying to do one of those surprise breach entry things, where you'd be hitting people across the room and your options are limited to real shells, bean bags or these things. They'd probably stay lodged in someone at that range. Were it decided they could be used in only this scenario, I suppose that might perhaps be reasonable.
Why does the voiceover for the video sould like an advanced Steven Hawking or my PC doing text to speech conversion.
Is there something we are not being told, is this the first weapon system invented by machine, manufactured by machine and proimoted by machine?
Be afraid, be very afraid
I don't really object to these They are quite likely less lethal than bullets. the problem is they won't be used as an alternative to bullets. Just like normal tasers, they'll be used instead of physical restraint. I assure you they are not less lethal than a pair of handcuffs
Sub sonic projectiles from a shotgun are not to be taken lightly and can inflict serious injury regardless of its construction.
One hopes that 20 uncontrolled painful seconds is the maximum that this can deliver because I wouldn't like to be the dude removing this generator if it malfunctions.
Time to target after squeezing the trigger about one second. The Police don't have the ability to think that the far ahead.
Who decides which Taser to use? I suspect it will be one for all so its progenitor will be conveniently dumped. And the thing that really worries me the most. This is a full firearm in every sense of the word. Would this be the next step to arming the UK police? Doesn't bear thinking about....
Mine the one with the £5.99 kevlar jacket with aluminium foil lining from the supermarket............
WTF does "it will leave potential bruising" mean? Either it leaves bruising or it doesn't (I think I know the answer)... and then there's the more sinister possibility that "...and it could cause a contusion." When I did my medical degrees, there was no difference. Those of you with access to a dictionary could possibly confirm this. If tasering the spokesman has done this to his brain, what will the taser do to the human body?
It's all very well saying these make a great alternative to live munitions, but the problem is as with all police powers recently it goes from "it's for this" to "when we're bored we'll do this". Terrorism legislation gets used against granny smith taking her dog for a walk and she gets an asbo because the dog barked at somebody.
They should only be used where usually you'd use live ammo, like guy walking down the street sawn-off in hand, may or may not actually use it, not because person carrying it is a firearms officer.
For those that are going to say "what a stupid idea" - they'd obviously be backed up by real armed police or just not using the taser worst-case. This is how tasers are supposed to be used in this country but they're drawn on pissed up people relentlessly. I've had one drawn on me on a night out when completely sober and unarmed, so I know from personal experience that cops are trigger happy with these things.
The taser should be about saving lives not police effort because they just came on shift or they feel like tasering some guy who stole 20p worth of sweets from a corner shop, or because they think a drunk person will cause them hassle.
Lets distance ourselves from the yanks and remember what armed police are for before this stuff gets out of hand.
According to the Guardian today, this thing delivers a 500 volt shock.
The front barbs on this thing seem quite long and on the demo they go through the tee shirt right in to the subject's body.
If you are hit on the front of the leg there's no skin on the shin bone so it's likely to embed itself in your shin bone.
If you are hit and front barbs and side electrodes are positioned such that the 500 volt difference is across your heart, there's a good chance of a cardiac arrest. Has every member of the board of the makers had this tested in this way on him - and across his nads.
Is this a "one-shot" device or do they send it back to the manufacturers for rebuilding ? Are the prongs sterilised before manufacture or re-manufacture.
In the States who pays the medical bills after the prongs damage goes septic?
Will the police do a risk assessment before using this - didn't they have some problem in London with a Brazilian electrician ???
Let's get the UK police ISO9000ed and a lot of this stuff will be bogged down in paperwork.
Say what you do; do what you say. Prove it and improve it.
AC for obvous reasons.
I think you've just come up with the next hot technology in riot control.
Any Police force with a sense of humour* using this should fill their water cannon with Chilli sauce as, if you are shooting mouthy gits with kebabs, you just know what the first smart-arsed retort from the splatterees is going to be.
*I know, it's a big ask.
I think the biggest conern here is that people are worried that the police will be more likely to use a less-lethal projectile than they would a lethal projectile, so the barrier to use comes down meaning that more rounds get used, which increases the chances of innocent people getting hit by them. I know that many people argue that being shot with a taser round is preferable to being shot with a shotgun round, but that is not the point. The point is that the very label less-lethal makes the use of these rounds more likely. In the UK we have seen an increase in police action that has resulted in loss of innocent life, and that's just with their bare hands!
it all depends WHAT it is used for.and when. We all know that both the Govt and Police are born liars ,and look at the RIPA's use for dog fouling. I guess they will eventually issue these long range tasers for the Stasi Police to use on Saturday nights and on pensioners who argue over parking tickets as they have done with normal tasers.
They forgot to put the laughter track on that promo video: "a stunning technological achievement" - that will have'em rolling in the aisles.
So the four front pins stab you first (while rotating... wonder what that does), the back end drops off and six more pins in it stab you somewhere else and start giving you a shock between the two parts, then, when you (as a reflex) clap your hand to the pain, it starts shocking you through your arm too. I'm so glad it's humane.
Mine's the conductive flak jacket... no, the other one... uhh, did everyone bring the same jacket today?
a shotgun firing blanks at close range can kill with ease. these new weapons are absolutely guaranteed to stop human beings in their tracks, whilst inflicting (just about) the maximum corporeal damage possible within the framework of the law. there is every possibility that these kind of cartridges will fall foul of the geneva convention, which a) proscribes the use of shotguns (using flechette or area-effect ammunition) and b) the use of torture against protected persons, i.e. non-combatants and civilians. this is an American weapon and the US don't give a flying fuck about this, of course: even their police go tooled up with these brutally inhumane devices. that this country is considering following American lead on this particular issue shows the depths to which this country's leadership has sunk and belies the total lack of regard in which they hold their population. i should imagine liberty international will be taking a very dim view of the above described weaponry, and rightly so.
it seems that we may now face a situation where the police may be carrying loaded shotguns on UK streets. how are civilians supposed to react to this overt display of force? not even our military use shotguns against enemy combatants. what the fuck are the government on? if these 'less-than-lethal' weapons are deployed, criminals will have to get actual guns and the police will have no-one to blame but themselves when they start getting pulped in their boots. no sensible career criminal will want to start carrying heavy metal, but by upping this particular ante the government will render very heavily leaded firearms the only remaining option to the serious outlaw. moreover, these devices, once in general use throughout the MET (for it will be they doing the testing) will, absolutely guaranteed, be used against innocents, peaceful protesters in the interests of 'maintaining order' - viz. repression.
the cops, like anyone trying to do a difficult job, will always moan that they don't have enough resources. this may be true in certain cases, but they don't need to be armed with shotguns loaded with high tech weaponry to protect the public from itself - they can already deploy lethal weapons when necessary, a truncheon should be more than sufficient when not. it is hard to admit, but when our establishment considers arming its civilian peacekeepers with weapons like shotgun fired electric shock ammunition, it only seems to be seeking the next step on the route to blur the line between citizen and criminal.
i read articles like the above and cannot help but think about civil disobedience. AC for very fucking obvious reasons.
Obviously 20 seconds is worst case scenario, 5 seconds is probably enough to disable an old age pensioner or pregnant woman, but a protesting docker or miner, or even the proverbial tall threatening photographer, may need a longer shock to knock them down.
It may also take 20 seconds of current to scramble the memory card in the all threatening photographer's camera as well.
Back in the 70's in Northern Ireland it was common practice to retrieve expended rubber bullet projectiles, hollow them out and fit them with small electric motors with eccentric weights on then. Nice of the stasi plods to now supply the battery.
"The premise behind the XREP is not to cause or impart physical pain". How true, its main purpose is to make profits for the manufacturer and/or patent holder. How much doe these rounds cost anyway, and how does that cost compare to a fitness program for the plods.
What's next the taser landmine? Woops, I'd better patent that ASAP..
Paris, she knows what to do with a used rubber bullet.
These days the police (and indeed the government) have a blanket defence, it's that of acting in good faith.
Shoot an innocent man several times at point blank range and it's OK as long as you believe the target to be a terrorist and are acting in good faith.
Invade a country and cause thousands of deaths and that's OK too as long as you thought the country posessed WMDs and were acting in good faith.
So the fact that these devices WILL cause heart attacks and kill people is not a problem because it will be found that everybody from the police officer who pulled the trigger all the way up to the manufacturer was acting in good faith.
Funny isn't it that the same defence has never worked for an ordinary Joe?
so the police cant ram a car-wielding maniac off the road because the maniac may get hurt, so they will let him drive at 100mph through a town until he hits an innocent minding thier own business.
the police wont prosecute politicians who falsify expenses claims and steal money from the taxpayer, but they can 'kettle' those taxpayers when they use their right to peaceful protest and seriously injur or kill those who do not comply.
now they are arming them with longarms that WILL kill. I shoot shotguns and to project anything over 100ft accurately will require that the projectile retains considerable energy out to that range. As you decrease the range you increase the impact energy to the point at which the round will become lethal. The plastic wad from a 12G sporting cartridge will punch through 10mm ply very easily at about 3 meters.
...tasers employ Direct Current rather than Alternating Current, so it shouldn't be necessary to ground oneself to defend from them. All that would be needed is a preferred path for the electricity to the salt-water in human flesh. Metal mesh should do the job nicely--with lower resistance, the electricity should prefer the metal, giving you a much weaker shock should you still be contacted.
People have mentioned missed shots that hit innocents. I'm wondering what'll happen if said shot happens to go in the drink...or worse, into an occupied swimming pool.
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