Microsoft under threat from Linux - it's official Microsoft has warned investors about new threats to its precious client-side tech ecosystem, by listing Linux vendors Canonical and Red Hat as rivals in its annual Form 10-K filing. The software giant also acknowledged Apple’s impressive market share grab in the US, where it now commands fourth place for total shipments. “[ …
One where Microsoft has to compete properly and fairly?
Strikes me that Microsoft is beginning to lose its strangle hold on the IT market. People are turning to Apple because Vista was a pig and because they wanted change. Linux is always going to gather pace as its in its own hermetically sealed vacuum.
And the EU firmly has its foot on Microsoft's head. All of a sudden the exclusive contracts, the bundling of MS components is falling apart.
At this rate, Microsoft are going to have to compete on a level playing field where product superiority has to win.
The question remains though, how much payback will there be to MS as the market changes? I'm sure there are more than a few axes being ground right now.
So it makes you wonder quite what they are up to with Windows 7 pricing. Yes Microsoft, in this brave new world, we want to pay MORE for average software. They simply haven't got a clue now its going pear shaped.
That's funny, Ballmer was only the other day claiming how Apple's market share increase was just a "rounding error." Now they have "made inroads?" He needs to get his facts straight, the only ROUNDing error is his stomach.
But then the guy started out in HR, how much IT credibility can he have anyway?
The data for this report has been ready for months. Knowing that, one wonders why Microsoft hasn't already shed their low-down and self destructive ways. They can't because of who they are and they are Microsoft. They're just too big and too slow to react ... not to mention their inability to produce genuinely innovative products. Do they really believe Windows 7 (version 6.1; Vista is version 6 too) is actually anything more than the latest service pack for Vista? Yes, they do and they will keep believing it until they actually reach the General Motors stage in their corporate life. And it's still doubtful GM has really learned their lesson.
Microsoft is a dinosaur heading down the path of self-ruin; the global economy doesn't need that to happen. But the sad fact is Microsoft is run by a corporate individuals who still work in the economics of the '60s. They hire people who can help and then relegate them to the basement doing meaningless tasks and then claim they are moving forward.
The Emperor has no clothes and Microsoft is doomed to utter failure. I'm guessing within the next five years.
"Google’s Chrome OS remained notably absent from the list. The big question is it will the upcoming Mountain View platform be included a year from now?"
It's already covered by the MS document. "GooChrOS" isn't an OS, it's nothing more than yet another GUI running on Linux ... and Gawd/ess knows that Linux needs more GUIs ...
that Microsoft includes Canonical as an example of 'strong competition from well-established companies' since they've only been around since 2004. See who they think the enemy is.
Just goes to show how badly Microsoft are losing their way, and how an all singing and dancing Linux distro can catch waverers.
So I reckon this is NOT the time to let Microsoft apply its' 3Es approach to Linux or FOSS.
Ummmm, as neither Apple nor Linux or any other OS is going to make anything like a major dent in Microsoft's client OS business for at least a decade (or 2), I'm going to assume this is smokescreen for the next EU Competition Commission talks. After all, if they're losing market share, they're in a competitive market....
No, every public company fills in this form, it's just legal botty-covering.
Without it anyone who buys a share of MSFT stock can sue them if they had known about anything which might affect their business and hadn't disclosed it.
The more 'threats' you put in the filling the more covered you are.
On the server, maybe. With the move to virtualisation having to run a GUI on the host is a waste.
Consumer electronics (PVRs etc), certainly. Windows simply demands too much
Mobile, no. Other OSs have the mobile market sewn up already.
Client, not for at least a decade. Linux is still too geeky, too hostile to the end user, suffers too many limitations (modern hardware support, media playback, printers, mice etc) and demands too much knowledge (wanna set up a firewall? You'd better know the protocols backwards) for the average Joe.
Apple is no real threat here either - far too expensive.
MS has no immediate external threats in the client market, not for another 5-10 years anyway. The biggest threat is actually MS itself and that this "Linus danger!" is just PR puff to hide that fact. XP does everything people want - there is no compelling reason to move from XP to Vista or Win7. None.
That is the threat - not Apple or Linux.
You have to admit that they are producing just about the only viable OS for PCs. I would love to recommend Linux to people, but as long as it has bugs like crashing old routers that don't support IPv6 then I can't really expect anyone other than IT geeks like myself to use it.
As for Apple, they are worse than Microsoft. They have arguably a better OS but they use it to sell laptop components in fancy cases and always, always charge you more than they need to for the privilege. Lets not forget that iTunes will only synch with iPods, Apps for the iPhone are only available through Apple's store, Mobile Me charges $100 a year for services that can be found free elsewhere while remaining a poorer service than the competitors.
Apple users are 5% of computer users and act like they are the cream of the crop and should rule the rest of us. Apple don't program that into the OS, but it does seem to come as part of the Apple experience.
Doug Glass maybe you should use Windows 7 before you spout the usual hater guff about it being a Service Pack. And if you have used it then I can tell you had made up your mind before you even clicked the Start orb.
>> to make latest driver work like with WinModem.
Where do these people come up with such stuff?
1) Linux isn't an operating system, it's a kernel. OTOH Ubuntu, Fedora and Gentoo are all operating systems.
2) All work in the FOSS world is done based on demand, if you don't have winmodem support, or a working mouse (that made me laugh) then perhaps it's because there isn't the demand, or the people who demand the work fail to pay for it to be done.
3) What exists is Free, what is yet to exist costs to make. Make a note and learn it for next time. If you want something done, make sure you have your chequebook out.
Microsoft, not a company worth doing business with.
Seems to me the real long term threat to Microsoft is the possible disappearance of the PC as a platform, to be replaced by closed platforms (thin clients, kindles, game consoles, etc). Why do you think they spent so much money on XBox?
As far as OS platforms, the NT kernel is still technologcially more sophisticated than Linux or Apple's UNIX based OS. We will see if Windows 7 can undo the damage done by Vista, although I think most consumers were not really that annoyed by Vista. The fall in sales you see now is more related to the economy. Look at netbooks, where Windows eclipsed LInux in less than a year, once it was available to users. People don't really want to buy a Yugo instead of a Ford. Too bad there is not a real advance in OS design, something new and creative, not just a political movement wrapped around an obsolete and ersatz software like UNIX.
As said previously, Microsofts main competitor is Microsoft. I have 4 laptops, two of which still run XP and I will never upgrade them from this. I tried vista on them and it cripled them so it was back to XP for good performance and ease of use.
I also have a new laptop with Windows 7 and I can say that if you use a pc every day(windows pc that is) then its a huge leap forward. its light, nimble, pretty and there a number of small user enhancments (the most visible enhancments) that make it much more useable.
In fact, it feels like my MacBook pro now, you dont think about anything you do on it, you just do it, if you understand my meaning.
So, with win 7 feeling moderately like OSX, i dont think il buy another apple for the time being. Thats apples competition threat gone.
I wont buy linux as its linux ( sorry but thats just who i am).
But i still have two XP Pc's that will always be XP Pc's. MS will have to try very hard to get folks to upgrade from XP to Win7, especially since a lot of folks feel duped by the whole farce that is Vista.
Microsoft have plenty of time, at least 10 years before any other companies become competitors though....
Why do you bother posting Bob? Your posts are frankly crap.
"Imagine all the men and dog try to use command line to make latest driver work like with WinModem."
WinModems? Those cheap nasty cut corner devices that no-one uses any more and which were pretty dire under Windows 98.
Have you ever used Linux at all?
Are you really a person or some sort of sock puppet? And what's with the Aleksandr Orlov style of writing.
I do wonder if the Moderatorix lets his comments go through just to stir things up a bit.
"As far as OS platforms, the NT kernel is still technologcially more sophisticated than Linux or Apple's UNIX based OS."
Yeah? Care back that up with anything? I see *nix is still the number one choice for people who care about flops. I'm sure that's because they're all just windows n00bz and not because windows, technologically speaking, is bunch of pump that runs on ... how many architectures?
http://www.top500.org/stats/list/33/os
"Too bad there is not a real advance in OS design,"
So why support the company that tries to kill all competition?
What are you on? Have you wondered why Windows isn't used on any device other want PCs and the odd PDA or mobile phone? Its not just the hardware/system requirements, its also development support and existing support - I mean imagine you wanted to make a router, you would only really need hardware drivers, all the tools are already available and lot of the developers are available.
The answer is, Linux has lot of support - it's free, it's documented, specialist hardware manufactures love it.. OK I admit that there aren't always alot of drivers for razors edge hardware but there are normally available if you do alot of research.
I admit it's geeky but if you look at it - there are alot of reasons for using it.
Did you know for example a lot of the worlds stock exchanges runs on Linux and Unix platforms? Do you ever wonder why? I mean when was the last time you heard of a computer failure with a stock exchange? If you look at a lot of stock exchange computers a lot of these runs what amounts to "screen" session.
If you look at Windows, it's a terrorable system on some many levels and it really makes you wonder why people use it. I mean I know it's popular but I don't get it - a lot none technical people don't get Windows and these tend to be people whom can use Linux - I've personally helped people switch due to my lack of wanting to support their Windows systems.
PS please feed the troll... this troll is hungry (I've yet to eat!).
I personally think Microsoft will implode within 5 to 10 years as all of the competition will step up a gear and I believe we will see Microsoft try and spend their way out of trouble (like they have been trying to do with Google). I think they are point these problems out to try to get shareholder support and so they can excuse their current growing issues.
Also you have third world countries which are slowly adopting Linux (I know a couple of people whom have just returned from working in South Africa and where setting up Linux PCs and servers in South Africa). This will help these countries but will alot tech people to use Linux, if Linux is learnt - why would someone choose Windows especially when you have to pay for it and learn it?
Mike
So which is it? A Kernel? An Operating system? What? And why are you making it so convenient by compiling all these drivers with it? Because you can? If you didn't, would your favourite interface still work?
For years we've been hearing about the future of Linux on the Desktop. You mean to tell me that all this time the word Linux is just a place holder for a combination of elements that pass for the equivalent of an OS Turing Test, a seamless user experience? Come on. You can do better than that.
GNU/Linux isn't UNIX. It never claimed to be UNIX. Yet improperly-educated companies like SCO and Microsoft keep saying it's "a variant of UNIX." Sure, a Linux-based OS looks like UNIX, talks like UNIX, and is comfortable hanging around with UNIX, but at the core they don't have very much in common (kernel-wise) other than a fair amount of POSIX compliance...
It would be rather more correct to say that a Linux-based OS is "UNIX-like," as opposed to "a variant of UNIX."
"obsolete and ersatz software like UNIX"
Don't make me laugh. If you want real work done (reliably) use a UNIX or Linux box.
I have several really old, relatively slow (by today's standards) HP-UX servers doing easily 10 times the work of brand new Wintel machines, and they do it without constant preening and without being rebooted three times a week.
And the reason OS-X is so stable? That'll be UNIX too!
There's nothing wrong with basing an OS around UNIX. Often it's the graphical environment that needs some design work - a more user focused approach. I often wish M$ would swallow their pride and follow Apple and Google's lead - a Microsoft graphical environment on top of a secure and robust Linux platform would be a winner IMO.
Far from being 'obsolete', UNIX (and OS based on the UNIX model) is resurgent. Windows hasn't lived up to it's promises and people just want reliable systems that work ... and don't need 2GB of RAM and a dual core processor just to run a browser!
</rant>
So it seems that some of the mindless managers are beginning to realise they are continually paying out good money for the pleasure of getting nowhere on the MS upgrade treadmill... now for the mice in IT this is a good little earner... but for anyone paying the bill this is not a pleasant experience... it is not so much IF but WHEN they have the cojones to jump ship and actually start getting some return on their investment...
Think about the guys with the smirk on their faces still running Win98SE...
Then ask yourself:
What have they missed in the last ten years?
The answer:
Lots of service packs, fixes and the upgrades costs for those wonderful products ME & VISTA...
Then ask yourself: What have they gained?
Amazing performance on new hardware and lots of dosh not spent on upgrades...
"The Linux operating system, which is also derived from Unix..."
No. This is factually incorrect. Linux is no more "derived from Unix" than ReactOS is derived from Windows - it just aims for compatibility. The BSDs, on the other hand (of which Mac OSX is one), do in fact share code with Unix proper. Slipups like that don't send a particularly good message to astute investors - call me pedantic, but one would expect a company whose primary business is operating systems to know their stuff.
I also liked the "available without payment" bit - while you could cut them some slack as it is the only relevant part of the GPL to a financial filing, it would arguably seem to imply that Microsoft still doesn't really "get" open source. They still think of it in terms of cost vs no cost, when viral open source code is a rather bigger threat than just being free-as-in-beer.
> 1) Linux isn't an operating system, it's a kernel. OTOH Ubuntu, Fedora and Gentoo are all operating systems.
Uh, no. The kernel is the Operating System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_(computing) ) ; it provides everything needed to talk to the hardware or BIOS of a computer system. Ubuntu, Fedora and Gentoo are DISTRIBUTIONS that utilize the OS (kernel) and add (supposedly) pre-tested command parser(s) (shells), system level utilities, applications, and GUI(es) that all require the kernel to accomplish tasks. A simplified version of what you are saying would be KDE = Gnome = OS, which would be a "NO". "Ubuntu" is just a trademark.
Now, Canonical, Ltd. may make modifications to the Linux OS kernel for its own use (precompiled drivers, etc), but the kernel is the lowest level code that communicates to the BIOS and hardware. Likewise, what makes OSX a "Unix" operating system? The BSD (modified) Unix KERNEL, and BSD <> Linux because of that.
> 2) All work in the FOSS world is done based on demand, if you don't have winmodem support, or a working mouse (that made me laugh) then perhaps it's because there isn't the demand, or the people who demand the work fail to pay for it to be done.
Actually, all FOSS work is the product of different motives, usually (1) personal agrandizement (That's MY name on that!), (2) vendetta (I can make it better than you!), or (3) altruism (Make the world a better place, man); I am sure there are others. Its basically what some person(s) could be bothered to do in their spare time or while unemployed. (4) Long-term greed (We'll make our money in service contracts!) also counts as a motive, but then that is an "investment" and not necessarily spare time. None of that makes their FREE CONTRIBUTION in any way diminished; these are (generally) smart people who saw a need and filled that need, usually without getting paid for it. The economics of this are blatant; if you charged for it, it would not be as wide-spread, which knocks the first three motives on their ear.
>3) What exists is Free, what is yet to exist costs to make. Make a note and learn it for next time. If you want something done, make sure you have your chequebook out.
Which means that whatever "Free" and "Open Source" software out there was free to create? No, it just means that whatever has been done has been donated to the "community". What you espouse goes against the predominant viewpoint I have seen in the "community" (forums, shows, etc). There they say, "Can't find it? Just do it yourself!"
"Where do these people come up with such stuff?" THIS IS WHERE. People want Plug-N-Play the way it was advertised to them, and they want it in the "Free" (as in beer) OS they downloaded. The fact that the "Free" OS is not the one that advertised it makes no matter to Joe Blow. Joe has no political motive (stick it to the "man") for using Linux, he got it because he has an old PC, and can't get Win 3.x/95 to boot up anymore. If he wanted to get his "chequebook out", he would just buy new kit with the OS already on it, sit back with a beer, and call it a day.
"the real long term threat to Microsoft is the possible disappearance of the PC as a platform, to be replaced by closed platforms (thin clients, kindles, game consoles, etc). Why do you think they spent so much money on XBox?"
Could well be. How much do they lose for every Xbox they sell? And then there's Zune.
"the NT kernel is still technologcially more sophisticated than Linux or Apple's UNIX based OS."
Really? Where can I find informed discussion on this subject?
By informed, I mean something meaningful to someone who has worked in or near the kernels of Unixes (Venix, Sys V, BSD4.3, OSF/1, Linux 2.4/2.6), VAXELN, VMS, and of course Windows NT.
'Cos the description sure doesn't match what I've observed since I was first an MSDN subscriber, while NT3.x was still in beta test, or what I've observed more recently.
"People don't really want to buy a Yugo instead of a Ford"
Times change, companies may need to change in response. Once upon a time people wouldn't have bought a Skoda instead of a GM. Now, GM are dead in the water, and Skoda make some of the best value for money cars in Europe.
Linux appears to be evolving to be easier to use. Microsoft appear to have passed their zenith. That doesn't mean linux will become dominant or Microsoft products will disappear from the marketplace. If anyone could see the future with confidence it'd make them rich.........
I admit to be a linux evangelist. I must have installed linux on twenty different machines with different hardware over the last three years, and it's amazing how much easier it has become. It'll be interesting to see how Windows 7 does, it will be make or break for MS. It's certainly better than Vista.
There are a lot of ill informed and wrong headed posts on El Reg these days. Maybe that's a matter of opinion and some people shall think that of me.......
I suggest you read up a bit more about the technology behind Linux and Vista kernels before you make any more dumb comments about UNIX.
http://widefox.pbworks.com
"Too bad there is not a real advance in OS design, something new and creative, not just a political movement wrapped around an obsolete and ersatz software like UNIX."
Obsolete !? Tell that to companies like Google who run most of their infrastructure on Linux. Why do you think a company with as much money to throw around as they do are building ChromeOS out of Linux instead of creating something new?
Don't hold your breath for Microsoft to come up with something unique. Remember how they wrote the NT kernel in the first place? Oh, that's right, they didn't, they got someone else (DEC) to write it for them. That's how innovative they are.
"As far as OS platforms, the NT kernel is still technologcially more sophisticated than Linux or Apple's UNIX based OS"
Oh yeah it's so advanced that it can't even be run on embedded devices and mobile phones. No, Microsoft had to write new kernels for WinCE and WinMobile. Meanwhile plenty of devices run Linux kernels and the iPhone runs the OS X kernel.
It's a SEC filing FFS. They have to 'warn' people or get sued, as has been pointed out already. As for the stunning earnings drop and laying people off, well them's the times. Google just did it, and many others besides. (In fact, a 'recession' is a great time to shed a few pounds without upsetting the real value employees)
BTW - a few people here on about Vista and so on... We didn't upgrade from XP to Vista as I never saw the value. However... Win 7 is much lighter and works better - even in RC mode - and we will be upgrading.
Well, in my opinion Windows is still the best desktop and server OS by far, and will be for at least another few versions (read: decades). The continual Vista-bashing is just ill-founded, I've been using Vista HPx64 for about two years on one of my workstations and it is just fine, there are a number of things in it I even like over XP. As an IT it is also in two of the corporate locations I maintain, and it has been completely without issues.
IMHO the big competitor for the PC desktop is distros such as Ubuntu, which will continue to slowly grow in percentage up to a point. However, they will never have a large percentage of the general public popularity for two reasons: 1. they will never be supported by small to large software developers because the GPL/free ideology doesn't pay for the development of the software let alone any profit, the MS model of software development even for freeware and shareware is significantly better at only a small investment of purchasing at least one OS; 2. the community doesn't understand that the average end-user doesn't want to fiddle with learning all of the linux-geek command hassles su-su-sudo-oh-oh...
That being said, distros like Ubuntu will continue to gain some roads into the low-end PC market, simply because vendors/retailers can sell the low-end $400 boxes either at a lower price or at a higher margin by throwing away the per-system cost of Windows and putting a free distro on it. Even if a Windows 7 OEM license were as little as $50, that increases the price of the low-end boxes.
If MS is really concerned about the free Linux kernel distros, then along with Windows 7 for the standard users they should start selling XP Home retailed at $19.95 and OEM at $4.95 -- Ubuntu and the others would all but disappear on the desktop market.
If MS continues to not provide a low-end alternative world-wide and still retail the low-end XP/Vista/W7 OS at $125+, the Linux-based free OSs will continue to have a market.
Last time I looked printer support was pretty good on Linux. It just works.
I've seen Linux do things Windows won't do. Supporting cameras, for example (Windows "needs XPSP2 or "higher", Linux just works).
Don't keep asserting that Linux is "pretty geeky" until you know what you're talking about. A modern distro is easier to use -- and a whole lot less fussy -- than a modern version of Windows. That''s why Chrome's the real threat -- Google's consumerizing a Linux distro for end users.
Apple might be overpriced and over-trendy but its a lot easier to tell people to buy a Mac. It'll cost more up front but the hardware's reliable (says "Consumer Reports", at least (that "Which" for US readers, BTW) and you won't have to be forever patching the thing. It will "just work".
>1. they will never be supported by small to large software developers because the GPL/free ideology doesn't pay for the development of the software let alone any profit, the MS model of software development even for freeware and shareware is significantly better at only a small investment of purchasing at least one
This statement is incorrect and is pure FUD. You can make quite a tidy profit writing software that runs on linux (ask Oracle). You can write closed source software for linux as long as you don't use or link in any GPL code for your application. Microsoft also has a nasty reputation of trying to crush any company that comes up with a killer must have application in its own ecosystem (ie Netscape, Lotus 123, Wordperfect, etc). Many companies prefer to work in the linux and or other open source ecosystems because they don't have to worry about a large easily angered control freak venegeful company telling them what to do in said ecosystem.
stop bickering in the car and look outside at the view
The best thing about this point in time I believe is that OS improvements are happening faster than at any time in the past. Windows 7 is a yin release that may have the effect of steadying MS's ship and reputation, especially when it is adopted by businesses (which it will be). Ubuntu is becoming a force to be reckoned with, and will be happy on the consumer desktop any day now, as soon as people stop faffing with it. And the market has proved that Apple (despite my protests to anyone who will listen) is quite happy to expand its niche.
None of these are going to die. The market's too big, and expanding with new products all the time. Paradigm shift we're seeing are with Linux starting to find its way into closed consumer devices, and virtualisation pushing both Windows and Linux servers in the datacenter.
About a decade too late, huh? Just when Windows NT 4 was poised to drive those UNIX servers out of the computer room, along comes UNIX-work-alike Linux offering a simpler upgrade path to the economies of x86.
Microsoft have repeatedly lost ground since then.The cost of sysadmin of Linux systems is so very small (thanks to puppet and good package management) and with more and more virtual platforms pushing the price of hardware down it is system administration which is the dominant cost. We won't go into the joke that is running 32bit software on 64bit platforms, just to get application availability and driver stability when the Linux experience is pretty much the same between 32b and 64b.
From what I've seen of recent desktop Linux, Microsoft's problem with Linux is going to be that the freetards will have built a better user experience. Who'd have thunk that after years of banging on the "eXperience" drum that Microsoft could have dropped that ball so badly with Vista.
Windows Vista++ should really get some sort of AppStore/apt-get/yum equivalent to be vaguely in the same class of ease of use installing software. It should collect "driver packs" so people can just plug in hardware and have it work. It should get the user interface to security mechanisms right (and SELinux's nice auditing applet would be a good hint).
From a corporate point of view, Microsoft's unwillingness to play nicely with the other children continues to be a pain in the butt. There's no good reason at all why the HR system can't have a "corporate directory" module and be the major login authentication and authorisation source. Instead we've got all sorts of fancy software to sync HR with Microsoft's notion that it must be at the centre of the authentication and directory universe.
but I tend to feel that this is more of a ploy to get the antitrust regulators off their back; the fact they are talking about raising their prices makes me think M$ are too arrogant to actually feeling threatened.
This is not to say that Microsoft hasn't lost it's way... it clearly has and all evidence points to a long term decline in their fortunes.
But until business application companies start to develop for Linux in a serious way, Windows will continue to be dominant. There will be a tipping point though, at which business application developers decide the investment of porting their applications to Linux is justified by the returns and when this point is reached, I reckon their will be a huge move away from M$ products.
""GooChrOS" isn't an OS, it's nothing more than yet another GUI running on Linux ... and Gawd/ess knows that Linux needs more GUIs ..." ... By jake Posted Wednesday 5th August 2009 12:55 GMT
Oh yes it is, Jake. And that's how Stealthy SMART Enabled IT is. Surely you never expected Google to fall into the Corporate Capitalist Honey Trap, and Play be Rigged House Rules? And their Alternative OS Approach allows them Access into Any and All other Operating Systems which browse/trawl/phish/plagiarise Information from and for Networks InterNetworking.
I've often wondered why the 'fair play in the marketplace' police from the EU *allow* Linux to be distributed there.
Really, giving away free software (Linux) must distort the marketplace, and unfarly hurt competitors (MS, Apple, SUN, all the other *nix-es). How is that allowable under the EU rules?
Give away IE and get fined a billion euros. Give away an entire OS, with a web browser 'bundled', for free and that's OK! Doesn't that sound crazy to anyone but me?
Is it just that Microsoft is a US company, and the EU countries (1) wanted a billion euros, and (2) didn't mind kicking the USA to get it.
Is it just that Linux has such a low market share that it (legally) doesn't matter?
Windows costs money, comes with anti-piracy hoops you have to jump through every time you change hardware, and (apparently ) has bugs.
Everything else seems more stable /userfriendly by comparison.
Mine's the posix based box. At least I know which of my archived files will be accessable 10 years from now.
And i'm not MS bashing either. Some people need MS , to run their new "gaming" pc which they'll discard after a few years when they're bored.( PS3 -enterprise edition? ..don't laugh. Without MS windows, what else is there?).
Microsoft is special. So are it's users. Try to be magnanamous.
Adopts serious Ross Kemp type voice for moment, "There are companies in the world today who simply cannot maintain market share. These once proud organisations now reduced to this terrible state. Please, if you can spare £100, please buy a copy of Windows today. It will make all the difference to one poor struggling company and help make this world a better place. Thanks for your time."
Actually if the other platforms pickup, that means all the virus kiddies will come over to Linux and OSX, oh no!
Please buy a copy of Win7, even if you don't want it, even if you own a Mac or anything! Just keep the kiddies on Windows away from the rest of us who made the jump to get away from them!
Your comprehension is clearly as good as your spelling.
I stated that Linux was a threat on the server and on the consumer electronics. That takes care of your stock exchange and PDA examples.
But for Joe Schome average user, Linux is still hostile. If you have to use the command line even once, for anything, that is FAIL. End of discussion.
You admit Linux is geeky. Good. This is still FAIL for Joe Schmoe.
Having to do research to get drivers? FAIL.
Cannot buy Linux pre-loaded or naked PCs easily. FAIL.
Cannot get decent driver or peripheral support? FAIL (yes, I know you can hack xorg.conf to jolly along Logitech mice etc - I am talking about Joe Schmoe here. That is MEGA-FAIL).
Printing? FAIL (lack of drivers).
Games? FAIL.
dotNet for business apps? FAIL (do NOT start with me about Mono! It does not work for anything beyond "Hello World").
Want to run multiple displays? Oh, FAIL raised to the power of FAIL cubed. Yes, I know X can handle this - but there are serious limitations that would drive Dave Schmoe (Joe's smarter brother) scatty.
Linux is fine for the enthusiast/geek (as you admit), those who don't mind getting down-n-dirty, hacking config files, compiling drivers etc. But this is not Joe Schmoe. The Linux world simply does not get this - they assume that everyone using a PC has at least a Masters in Comp.Sci.
People use Windows because they don't give two damns how good/bad it is. The PC is just an appliance so thet and "google" their "facebook" "twitters" or whatever. It's the same was a washing machine - I don't give a seconds thought to what OS my washing machine has - nor should I. Joe Schmoe thinks that same about a PC.
And after that (apparently) Linux bashing rant, can I say that I quite like Linux. I'm using right this second. But then I am a geek, not Joe Schmoe. Unlike most of the Lintard though, I get the idea that it's still too hard for poor Joe Schmoe.
"But for Joe Schome average user, Linux is still hostile. If you have to use the command line even once, for anything, that is FAIL. End of discussion."
OK. I can go along with that for the sake of argument ... but ... Doesn't that mean that OSX is FAIL[1], then? ... You do know that "sudo cmd, password" is command line, right? And you do know that Windows (insert version here) has similar bits & bobs, right?
Sorry. Your argument just doesn't hold water. The rest of yours suggests you might be in over your head, if not actually sitting on the bottom of the pond.
[1] Lose FAIL as a meme, youngster. It's very old & tired.
"Is it just that Linux has such a low market share that it (legally) doesn't matter?"
That's precisely what it is. Microsoft has a de facto monopoly in both the US and the EU, Linux doesn't. In both the US and EU, it is illegal to use a monopoly position to leverage another monopoly position. In both the EU and US, Microsoft were taken to court for doing this and prosecuted.
If you think it's just the EU trying to extort money from a poor little American company, then how do you explain the US government fining Microsoft millions of dollars for the same thing?
You clearly have an anti-European agenda (which is odd considering that the majority of Americans are descended from Europeans). Kindly troll somewhere else.
"MS should start selling XP Home retailed at $19.95 and OEM at $4.95 -- Ubuntu and the others would all but disappear on the desktop market"
I like that idea. When other companies have obsolete products they do indeed carry on selling them, at significantly reduced prices. It even happens to software (and not just the £4.99 stuff you buy at the supermarket checkout that used to sell for £39.99 when new). I can legitimately buy cheap obsolete versions of MS Flight Sim, MS Train Sim, and other such stuff. Why can't I buy cheap obsolete versions of Windows?
Well there's one obvious answer. Given something closer to free market (a market with no compulsory prepaid Microsoft tax) and the ability to choose between a Linux for cost of media (99p?), an out of date but still usable XP rebadged by Focus Mutimedia etc at £9.99, or a Genuine Microsoft Original Windows 7 at £100 or maybe more, what is going to happen, what are the sales going to look like?
You don't have to be a genius to know that Windows 7 is going to vanish almost without trace in that scenario. But best not to discuss this concept, as the sky may fall in on the entire MS ecosystem, from MS all the way to their fanboi MCPs/MCSEs etc.
<<You admit Linux is geeky. Good. This is still FAIL for Joe Schmoe.
Having to do research to get drivers? FAIL.
Cannot buy Linux pre-loaded or naked PCs easily. FAIL.
Cannot get decent driver or peripheral support? FAIL (yes, I know you can hack xorg.conf to jolly along Logitech mice etc - I am talking about Joe Schmoe here. That is MEGA-FAIL).
Printing? FAIL (lack of drivers).
Games? FAIL.>>
Naked PC's? Do some 'research', that Joe Schmoe WILL do, e.g. checking prices, asking his pals, shopping around, etc. One of his pals may stick a PC together for him. We're not all "Mom&Pop" - we ask for advice. Didn't you when you bought a PC, or did you assume you're so fuc*king smart you didn't need any help.
Dunno. I install Ubuntu, start it up, detects modem, WiFi card, printer, mouse - Microsoft I add, network, USB stick, ..etc.
Stuck it on a few of my mates computers, no problem* I agree about the games, but a different machine (X-box, PS2) would be better.
Did you try Slackware loaded from floppies by any chance? Might explain the EPIC FAIL you came out with.
*One friend complains she can't save pr0n from xhamster.com with Linux, but who cares? I told her to use Win-ME for that. She'll love the wonderful new trojans and spyware that comes with it.
I hear you brother! That SUDO crap is such a pain. Always hassling a user for a password when they try and do something they don't have privileges for, arragghh!
Best Linux adopt the windows security model, universal access for everyone (local and remote), why let the OS get in way of the "user experience"?
Linux costs a lot less to develop than windows, but as it is not as good (according to some) it is still a desktop operating system. A bicycle is not a comfortable as a car but it still a transport vehicle. If Ford wanted to compete with Giant on price for "vehicles", goodbye Ford. Same goes for MS, if they have to give away windows at a bargain basement price, bye-bye profits, bye-bye MS.
"If you have to use the command line even once, for anything, that is FAIL"
What's so terrible about the command line? In the days of DOS everyone from geeks to secretaries had to use the command line. Tools like Ubiquity for Firefox and QuickSilver for OS X are modern command line interfaces. Sometimes it's just quicker and more convenient to type something than do loads of clicking.
I think you misunderstand my comment about Linux being sealed from the outside world.
My point (not very made, my apologises) is that Linux is largely sealed from commercial pressures. There is nothing MS can do to prevent the growth of Linux for many obvious reasons. To MS, Linux is an annoying cancer that is simply going to spread.
And even if Linux spent the next 10 years starved of development cash, it would still be stronger than ever in 10 years time because of the superb work its developers already do. There is nothing MS can do to stop that thread.
MacOSX and Apple are another problems. People bought into Apple because of Vista. I certainly did and so did nearly everyone else. But there is another problem for Microsoft is that people are buying into Apple for no other reason than they "fancy a change".
When people are changing because they "fancy a change", there is nothing Microsoft can do about it.
The only thing Microsoft can do is start to compete on a level playing field with good products, and that will be no bad thing for the market in general.
Linux is not "derived" from Unix. That would imply that it contains a significant amount of Unix code, SCO's bogus lawsuit (read slow motion train-wreck here) proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it, in fact, does not.
All this is a number of bogus made up excuses to try and make people "forget" that Microsoft is a convicted monopoly abuser that still holds well over 90% of the computer market.
... .... and therefore a Flexible Friend/Phantom Foe?
"No. It is not. google has not created an operating system. google has pasted a GUI on top of an existing operating system. It's not often that I disagree with you, brother (sister? alien? Eliza?), but in my opinion you have the wrong end of the stick on this one." ... By jake Posted Thursday 6th August 2009 09:03 GMT
Ok, jake, let us both agree on the above and admit that some are not yet using IT as an Alternative Operating System with Google ChromeoZones. The Peace and Quiet will never annoy the Developers who will have Free Rein and Absolute Reign to Ensure Guaranteed Superior Out of this World Performance.
There is a great little quote from a spotty little, long-haired geek in the film MacHeads.
"With Mac you tend find they will argue the merits of the interface over others, intelligent arguments about what other operating systems do that Mac doesn't. With Windows users all you get is 'Macs suck!'. That's not a reasoned argument, but about typical for them!"
So it is with Win vs Linux. Linux is free, it has good support considering it's fighting uncaring manufacturers, making slow progress and picking up fans, more each month. Windows user turns up and it's "Linux crap! Windows good! Ug! ( Pick's up club and wanders off "
Today's startups aren't using Windows; not like they used to.
Back In The Day, companies chose IBM Mainframes because they were what was available. And while mainframes are stodgy and decrepit and uncool, etc, when they were the only game in town they were a god-send; better than anything available. They were workhorses.
Then along came "midrange" computers running UNIX, VMS, and I don't know what all. Startups chose them because they were cheaper and technology had improved to the point where they could do a lot of things those workhorses could and couldn't. (The ability to have more than one process per user comes to mind.)
Then came desktops. They were cheaper than a Sun, HP, Apollo, DEC, Irix, etc, systems and came with easier-to-use productivity apps like Word, WordPerfect, Excel, etc. Startups went to them.
Today's startups? I've not seen every one, of course, but they shy from Windows and many use a mix of Linux for their servers and OS X or a Linux GUI for the desktop/laptop ... and often an iPhone or Blackberry for mobile.
And just like IBM could cruise along for a while before it had to reinvent itself, ditto for MS. Sell short.
Mine's the one with the Motley Fool hat in the pocker.
I did two fresh Jaunty installs last week (partially successful, had driver issues with an integrated webcam and the laptop hardware in general;Intel graphics and a lack of drivers in general are the bugbears of Linux). Yes, *I* know it is because the code is not OSS so people outside the company can't write the drivers; Joe Schmoe does not.
Had a gander and PCLinux. Seemed OK-ish. Might be good for those who like the Windows interface, I thought it felt slightly dated and clunky. Bit link XP then.... ;-)
Used the Ubuntu Live CD to rescue knackered Windows HDDs on a couple of occasions.
Thinking of trying out OpenSUSE, just to see what life beyond the Debian stable is like,
Like I said - I quite like Linux. Once the printer and multiple screen support gets sorted and I can be bothered to learn about MythTV) I may well switch totally. But for the average user? Out side of consumer devices....no way.
I'm sitting here typing this on Ubuntu. Yes, Windows is under siege. Maybe Microsoft should just bye a Unix license and incorporate Unix into Windows. Then we can have an all Unix world with Apple and Linux and be under the same crap we are now with Windows but just under the same vendor.
I still haven't spent a single cent doing anything to make Ubuntu give me everything I need for free. It just works. There isn't anything I can't do on it. I can EVEN run Windows applications in WINE? HOW COOL IS THAT?? CAN YOU DO THAT ON WINDOWS?? DOES WINE WORK ON OSX??
My mates who aren't in the IT industry all have laptops/desktops. They haven't heard of Linux. Windows works for what they do and it comes pre-installed on the systems that they buy from PC World. They will never, ever consider Linux - Fact.
If they did go for Linux then I'm going to be bloody busy explaining to them how to get Football Manager to work.
"I still haven't spent a single cent doing anything to make Ubuntu give me everything I need for free"
So how many *hours* have you spent? There's no such thing as free, unless your time is worth nothing.
"It just works."
Hmm, you must be fairly new to Linux if you think that.
"DOES WINE WORK ON OSX?"
Sure it does. (http://wiki.winehq.org/MacOSX) CrossOver, who do a commercial implementation of Wine, also have a Mac version (http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/)
You obviously have different experiences than I have. I can't be of much use to you without hardware details however other than suggestion you could have a look at Mandriva as they are also good with netbooks/laptops, so for the rest i'll point you towards LinuxQuestions.org where you're welcome to ask as much as you like.
"There's no such thing as free, unless your time is worth nothing."
Yes, this is true, but how many hours have i spend fighting viruses, wating for reboots, etc. on windows. How often? When I fix something on my UNIX system, it stays fixed, so over time my system grows more stable, can you say the same for your windows machine, or do you reboot once a month (patch-tuesday, anyone?)? When you consider my salery (which is how we value my time and it is quite a nice one, thank-you) in total cost of ownership, you have to consider that on BOTH platforms.
Yes, mines the one that say "OpenSolaris" on the back, thanks.
"So how many *hours* have you spent?
There's no such thing as free, unless your time is worth nothing."- The time it took me to download, install, and run UBUNTU didn't COST me anything. It's not rocket science. The cost of Windows plus applications like Office, Photoshop, and other software I use is a heck of alot more than Ubuntu (FREE) Open Office (Free with Ubunutu) and all of the other free apps that allow me to work, play, communicate and everything done that I do. The time it took me to download, install, and run Ubuntu didn't cost me MONEY. Microsoft and Apple products however cost MONEY. It's not rocked science. MORE FOR LESS.
"Hmm, you must be fairly new to Linux if you think that".
Let me say it one more time since it is clear, in a month of running UBUNTU, I have not had ANY PROBLEMS with it. IT JUST WORKS. IT isn't that I THINK IT WORKS. IT JUST WORKS. Can you say that about Vista? I think not. No, I am not new to Linux. I like UBUNTU. You don't? That's your problem. Not mine.
Wine works on OSX? Good. That isn't problem for me. WINE works beautifully in UBUNTU on MY laptop.
Some companies actually have made netbooks with Linux on them instead of Windows Vista, so Microsoft is safe from perjury charges.
Given that, by changing the kernel constantly, the Linux developers deliberately make life hard for peripheral makers who don't want to reveal the source of their driver software, it's a wonder that Linux could ever become a threat to Windows, at least on the desktop. Windows server licensing policies, of course, make one wonder why anyone uses Windows instead of Linux in servers, on the other hand.
Why does the competition between Windows and Linux seem like a competition to see who can do the better job of shooting themselves in the foot?
When I first got my HP2133 notebook, it had SuSE, so my missus wanted XP.
It took me about 45 mins to load XP, then it took me another 30 mins to find and load all the drivers, because HP wouldn't give them on a disk, I have to rake through their support site and try to work out which ones I needed. Remember of course that I couldn't do this on the HP2133 itself, because XP had not net drivers!!!
Fast forward 3 months.....
I grabbed Ubuntu 9.04, loaded it onto my HP2133, no patches just the install CD. I was expecting a fight to get all the devices working, well check this out of the box install....
Wifi: OK
Bluetooth: OK
Ether: OK
Screen: OK ( max res, full color )
Hibernate/Sleep: OK
Sound: OK
USB ports: OK
External monitor socket: OK
Battery indicator: OK
Is Linux ready for the big time? Not quite, but it's damn close and MS are bloody right to be worried!!
It would really be a nice change if the Linux community would quit getting into the same silly lies as many of the Mac users also do on these "vs Wintel" discussions. They don't have anything positive or truthful to contribute so they just start flinging mud.
This whole "MS fail -- Vista fail" is just garbage. Did you ever consider that if you are having crashing or other issues with Windows that it is your own fault? That you are quite possibly doing something stupid? I see Linux newbies posting on Linux forums with problems and the attitude that so many Linux "gurus" give them is that it is their fault because they did something stupid -- well it goes the other way as well when you are on a Wintel box.
I stopped doing consumer-oriented IT work years ago because I was tired of average-joe people causing all of their own problem.
I have been a hardware and software developer for almost three decades now (originally IC design, embedded systems, robotics, data acquisition), and I have been managing large networks for three corporations with four offices since 1995. In those past 14 years, their up-time has been 99.99% with only 3 hours downtime total [!!] due to one failed PS in a server -- that's 24:7:365 running Windows OS's. Anyone who is getting less than that with MS OS's needs to seriously examine their technical knowledge or fire their IT.
And personally I use mostly Windows, and I never have these issues that these so-called Linux users have with their Wintel boxes. Just stay away from installing sh*t software on your system or f*king around with stuff that you don't understand on the OS. :/
I've also been using Linux for over 10 years now. I am on my third box with Linux (the one I'm currently typing this on is dual-boot Ubuntu 9 and Windows 7), so I'm not a Wintel-only user.
Ubuntu is WAY slower than Windows 7 in overall usability, since Aero's accelerated GUI flys past Ubuntu (this box is my Internet surfing Intel Atom system with GMA950 which Gnome just crawls under but Win7 Aero is fast). There is almost NOTHING for high-quality Linux software available in the area of work that I do, so I HAVE to HAVE Wintel boxes here to run the software that I need.
FYI the Win7 install was WAY easier to do than Ubuntu when I built this system (no dvd -- it's usb boot only).
@asdf
If small to large software companies could make a decent profit writing apps for Linux THEN IT WOULD HAVE MORE SOFTWARE. Your post is entirely contrary to the entire real truth about the current state of Linux software.
Personally I WISH I could get a lot of the software I want and need on Linux, it would probably be cheaper for one thing. The truth is that you [currently] just CANNOT.
Sure, it's fine if you are into specific server or database deployments or just use OpenOffice and surf or if you want to roll your own software, but your average user doesn't want to or have the time to write everything they need.
I'm not a fanboi for any OS. Since 1980 when I first got into computers I have used numerous OS's and platforms. I use my computers as tools to get my work done. And Windows just covers more bases and does it easier [I didn't say "better"] -- that's a fact. Wintel is far from perfect, but if it can do more of what the majority of people want, then that is the platform that they will choose, even if they have to pay a few hundred bucks to get it.
So if you want to post your "Linux is perfect - Wintel is evil" then please go elsewhere since it is not the truth.
<<Really? Let's see Final Cut Studio running on your Ubuntu box then ..>>
Erm, I agree it might be a problem.
If I needed to. Or even had heard about it. [google, pause] Then, you need a MAC for that. Like, taking grannie to the shops, you probably don't need a tandem - a car is the RIGHT TOOL for the job!
However, I don't have a grannie, or need to mess about with videos. So, back to Ubuntu for my needs.
IDEA! Let's use an autogyro as a kitchen aid. About as relevant an argument.
(OK, done already. www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8KsAPoSuPI)
"IDEA! Let's use an autogyro as a kitchen aid. About as relevant an argument."
I think AC was just pointing out that Linux doesn't do everything, contrary to what some fanbois would like to believe. As deegee said in the post above yours, Linux is very short of quality applications. Of course there are plenty of great internet-centric apps like mail daemons and web servers but audio, video, CAD, photo, DTP and so forth are not well catered for.
Of course you can run a lot of these things (Windows ones anyway) on Linux in a VM but since they're very processor intensive there's not much point.
In those past 14 years, their up-time has been 99.99% with only 3 hours downtime total [!!] due to one failed PS in a server -- that's 24:7:365 running Windows OS's. Anyone who is getting less than that with MS OS's needs to seriously examine their technical knowledge or fire their IT.
###
Nice of you to be so black and white about it, but you were complaining about reality yes? I'll spare you the debate of *nix versus Windows and go right onto the subject of our fellow techs out there who are not as fortunate as yourself. The ones that work in public sector, educational sectors, government offices and other places where nobody gives a shit about your experience, advice or knowledge. Where by contract your position in the food chain of business is 'necessary evil but quickly replaceable', where your greeting is 'are you done yet?'. The same places where 99% of the software they shove into your hands, is not enterprise class, isn't tested at all, is certainly not meant for clients in a domain and where you're expected to finish installing and configuring, *and* explaining it's ins and outs in full it by lunch today or else. Policies? fuck policies, that's management level business, you're here to install and maintain. In the end, What they say goes and you do it.
These places have no problem forcing you to help them hoist the jolly roger in front of a superior battleship, and then go right ahead and stab you in the back once it goes wrong. After all, who was hired to install and maintain again?.
These ships of theirs will sink, sometimes several times a day, just because of their choices. Does that make the tech the bad guy?
And if you've been in the 'industry' long enough you know what i'm talking about, and you know change (either for you as a new job once you leave or get fired, or the company you work for) doesn't come at the wave of a hand.
At the end of the day these techs will have worked the hardest for the rest of us but receive little to no acknowledgement for their efforts, it's do or die.
Agree. If I want to write a letter, I'll use a pen and paper. Or Linux/Gmail. Or ooo.org. I don't use apps that cater for other stuff I wanna write, see what's on TV tonight, check my emails, find a job - (I've got two hopes - no hope and Bob Hope. Well, one now - no hope, as the other croaked) - not eff about editing porno, or songs. Plus, I don't play games on the thing. I don't want my machine to clean my undies, etc. Got a wife for that. It's just a computer, fer chrissake!
Now, let's get into a discussion on the best coffee-maker in the world. (MokkaMaster, loaded with Presidentti, natch. Just bought one, but someone'll come on saying Kulta Kaffe is better...;-)
(BTW did you enjoy the video?)
It's interesting how the key FUD talking points seem to be stuck a decade in the past. Macs are no longer terribly expensive. They are in the same price range as consumer PCs that some clerk at the local electronics store might try to your mother. Linux is also considerably different from the hysterical portrait some try to paint of it.
The Windows fear mongers are pretty much wrong on all accounts.
It's a sort of 2 for 1 sale.
The biggest barrier is the fear generated by the fear mongers.
Given that Linux pushed Microsoft to keep XP alive longer and slash their OEM prices, their required disclosure of Linux as a competitor is clearly not just a smoke screen. Linux may not necessarily gain market share but it can certainly devalue Microsoft's products.
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