Windows 7 is nice, but...
nowhere near nice enough to justify the price differential over a Linux Mint system.
Microsoft is going into promotional overdrive with Windows 7, four months ahead of the operating system's official launch date. Set to kick in as they are announced today, two offers give you "free" upgrades along with limited-time discounts - if you sign up to get Windows ahead of the October 22 launch. The stick to …
If the 'Pro' version kicks in around the US pricing on preorder (i.e. about 60 quid, or just under), then maybe MS have hit the right pricing point.
Maybe they've found the right carrot this time; could certainly make them more competitive (over staying with XP and never upgrading, as cash is tight and XP just works).
Maybe the lessons of history with Vista were learned!
I'm a bit confused. At the start of the article you mention that full versions of Windows 7 (I presume FULL Retail Boxed versions which can be transferred to another PC) will cost the same as a Windows upgrade?
But then at the end of the article you list the upgrade prices.
So am I right in thinking I could go out and buy a FULL COPY of Windows 7 without IE8 in a retail boxed version for exactly the same price as a retail boxed UPGRADE COPY?
If so, I may possibly be tempted. As much as I am a Linux fanboy, my Media Centre PC currently runs Vista Home Premium (I'm checking out the XBOX 360 MCE Extender before deciding if I should stick with Windows or replace it with Mythbuntu) and if it's not going to cost that much for the retail boxed full version which could be transferred to another PC (i.e. if I replace the motherboard and CPU) then I may well go for it.
"It's likely regulators will take a dim view of Microsoft's decision to pump out Windows 7 ahead of its final ruling on what Microsoft should do on making rivals' browsers available in Windows. "
So it's now up to faceless 'crats to decide when businesses can release new software? So competitors decide on a rivals business plan (i.e Opera will no doubt go 'snot fair) and it will drag on for months.
I'm unlikely to buy 7 for a long time (if at all), but it souldn't be donw to a f**king browser maker to decide that for me.
A full (not upgrade) Wndows 7 Pro for £99 (even ex VAT) would have me interested now, that said Windows 7 Ultimate for less that £200 would have me reaching for the credit card.
Actually, on second thoughts, even an IE-less full Win7 Pro for £99 would mean I'd be content to flash the plastic.
Let's hope that MS don't screw it up by launching umpteen different variants at whatever prices. Don't forget we've already got the Moron edition (netbooks), Basic, Pro, Ultimate and whatever EU-friendly versions.
(Penguin icon because although I have some liking for Win7, my main systems will still be Ubuntu)
As far as I know, you still get MSIE with the non-IE version. IE's glued into the mess they call Windows fairly deeply these days; I suspect you still get the bloat and security holes, just not the web browsing facility.
Also, this is not what the EU asked for, and they weren't particularly impressed when MS suggested it.
I'd suggest anyone who'd like to save a little money and lose MSIE just download Ubuntu.
Here's one for ya: exactly HOW do you actually access the internet to , ummm, i dunno, DOWNLOAD a bloody browser without the bloody browser? Or is it me and the "no-IE8" actually means that they just haven't put the shortcut on the desktop? I suppose I could use the classic telnet client tricks for something like "Lynx" emulation, or just try to input the address to the "address bar" of the "Windows Explorer".
"[Microsoft] said earlier this month it would deliver Windows 7 in Europe minus IE 8 to satisfy with European antitrust regulators"
I thought the European antitrust regulators have already said W7-IE8 is Microsoft's idea, not theirs, and is not a suitable remedy anyway:
The European Commission notes with interest Microsoft's announcement of its plans for Windows 7, and in particular of the apparent separation of Internet Explorer (IE) from Windows in the EEA. The Commission will shortly decide in the pending browser tying antitrust case whether or not Microsoft’s conduct from 1996 to date has been abusive and, if so, what remedy would be necessary to create genuine consumer choice and address the anticompetitive effects of Microsoft’s long-standing conduct. In terms of potential remedies if the Commission were to find that Microsoft had committed an abuse, the Commission has suggested that consumers should be offered a choice of browser, not that Windows should be supplied without a browser at all.
So when did the EU become the people we'd all trust to design our software?
The most beauraucratic, hide-bound, red-tape laden, innefficient organisation on the planet being cheered on by the pingu hippy anarchists - way to stick to your high-minded principles there people.
I have thought much the same thing.
I'm all for not being tied to IE (which I'm not anyway), especially if it means i can save a few ££ but without a browser, you cant download your browser of choice.
Also, when was the last time Apple offered anything other than Safari with their OS's? Iv never noticed any commission getting uppity about that.
"So it's now up to faceless 'crats to decide when businesses can release new software?"
It's up to them to decide when and how *multiply convicted monopolists* can continue to take part in the market.
This is not anti-MS, euro-centric nonsense, this is a company that have been shown time and again in multiple markets to have abused their monopoly status. As a result you shouldn't be surprised the courts and bureaucrats get involved in new releases.
"I'd suggest anyone who'd like to save a little money and lose MSIE just download Ubuntu."
When I can download a Steam client and get at all my games I've already bought, I'll consider it.
Plus every single time I've tried Ubuntu (not the latest one, haven't given that a go yet), at least one fairly important component in my PC won't work. For example, with 8.10, two of my six hard drives just didn't show up. I never did figure out why. Also, the Adobe Flash player at the time was cack. Couldn't fullscreen iPlayer. I think they've fixed that now, but I just want an out-of-the-box experience, and to be honest, Windows 7 gives me that.
I'd cheerfully pay £80 for a Full Retail non-IE version.
(Or get Ultimate on The Ultimate Steal for £40, hopefully!)
If the price for this upgrade were circa £30, like Snow Leopard, then it might have been worthwhile. As it is its WAY overpriced for what is practically a service pack. As a result microsoft gets no money from me and I make alternative arrangements.
They really do need to get more of a clue.
"Microsoft is going into promotional overdrive with Windows 7 .. give you "free" upgrades .. if you sign up to get Windows ahead of the October 22 launch"
Except in Europe as the big bad EU commission will only allow European users a clean installation, which will wipe out all their old settings and files. Curious as I thought that the EU only required the absence of 'Internet Explorer'. It's almost as if MS is penalizing EU users under the pretext of complying with the ruling.
Just a thought, if your going to be paying €199 for Windows 7 Pro or whatever the conversion to £'s will be then why don't you just purchase a Technet Direct subscription, is about £180/year (cheaper if you can find a 40% discount code).
It will give you access to Windows 7 as well as Office 2007 and plenty of other applications / OS's that you'll probably never use...
Now using CentOS, Puppy and Ubuntu, have been on and off with GNU/Linux since Slackware in 1994. Last two years pretty much full time with Linux. The so-called "free" OS is actually worth paying serious money for,...if I had a SOHO that was critical to my income, I'd willingly pay one of the major commercial distro's (Redhat, Canonical, CentOS) for support and remote maintenance. Also GNU/Linux these days is LOADED with quality applications software, some of pretty powerful stuff.....sure the interfaces are a little rougher and lack some of the "polish" of commercial apps, but the underlying quality is often superior to the shrink-wrapped stuff. With Win& with its likely legacy of driver issues, mal-ware issues, expensive applications issues, I'd want Microsoft to pay ME to use such a limited system and suffer it's problems.
a) open a command prompt and use FTP *,
b) use another machine and copy the installer across,
c) Use Windows Update to deploy IE, and use that to go get another browser, and then "uninstall" IE.
* cue Ipswitch complaint that MS bundling an FTP client is "anti-competitive"
Thanks for making life so much more pleasant for the rest of us here in lovely old Europe, your distance from a real-world understanding of technology makes me want to have your babies.
Also, the plural of OS is OSes or OSs. Look at the icon I used with this post. I am right.
"...buy a full or upgrade version of Windows 7 Home Premium. Microsoft has nailed the recommended retail price for this SKU today at $119.99 and $199.99 respectively"
So the full version is $119.99 and the upgrade version is $199.99? Invoice is in the mail, I don't do this subbing for free y'know :)
It would be so nice to have an entirely UK-orientated article which stated what was available in the UK and when and at what price, including retail editions and upgrades from recently-purchased Vista PCs and laptops.
All the other stuff about pricing and availability in the US and Europe is mostly irrelevant (except for ranting and point-scoring purposes)...
For people who are supposedly literate in the IT world the question of how to surf the internet without the IE browser is fairly rediculous. Simply download the browser of your choice to a thumb drive or SD card prior to putting in Windows 7. After the installation you can then add the downloaded browser to the new installation.
I'm also confused - was trying to figure it out from the BBC article too.
"So am I right in thinking I could go out and buy a FULL COPY of Windows 7 without IE8 in a retail boxed version for exactly the same price as a retail boxed UPGRADE COPY?"
If my understanding is right, not quite. There are different prices for full and upgrade. Except due to the EU, the upgrade product is actually a full one. I think. So assuming there's no difference between upgrade and full apart from the price, will anyone actually buy the full product? Is there some check that you actually do have a previous version?
Just to let you know I have Steam running happily on my Gentoo box at home thanks to wine and due to those lovely Penguinistas I can even start it from the command line with this command
So scrub that one of the Linux is crap list
ok .. no web browser *installed* ... no internet authoration of Win7 without IE , correct ? ..
no patches without IE, correct ?
simple ! .. MS will just either put IE *seperately* on the disc or provide a seperate IE / other free crap disc for retail, then *ask* if you want to install with all the *warnings* that you won't be able to authenticate or recieve patches/upgrades without IE ...
OEMs are gonna include IE anyway .. the few percent that build for themselves aren't going to have a problem .. only those that do fresh retail install on an existing machine .. upgrade from Vista , will probably just keep the existing IE installed with Vista ..
I don't get it .. thought the point was that IE could be unhooked from the OS .. not that you'd get an OS with no web browser
"So when did the EU become the people we'd all trust to design our software?
The most beauraucratic, hide-bound, red-tape laden, innefficient organisation on the planet being cheered on by the pingu hippy anarchists - way to stick to your high-minded principles there people."
The EU aren't designing our software, they're passing judgement based on which MS is giving us a Full Retail at an Upgrade price.
Although some places I've seen this claim it doesn't apply to the UK. We'll see, I guess.
My only gripe is their $100 = £100 fuckwittary. But meh.
> "Desktop - Introducing improved taskbar previews, bigger icons, pinning, and creative ways to personalize."
That's great, except that I turn all this shit off by default because I'm not a child and don't require constant visual stimulation to keep me alert. No desktop wallpaper, no icons.
> "HomeGroup - Takes the headache out of home networking, so it's easier to share files and printers."
I don't have this headache. I have two computers. They share a hub. It works just fine.
> "Jump Lists - Speedy access to your favorite pictures, songs, websites, and documents."
How much did it cost you for some idiot to rename favourites as 'jump lists'? And didn't we already have these things in Windows 98? And now you want more money for the same thing?
> "Snap - A quick (and fun) new way to resize and compare windows on your desktop."
I use 'Tile Windows Vertically' myself.
> "Windows Live Essentials - Must-have software for your PC—free! Get Mail, Photo Gallery, and other favorites."
No, thank you very much. Your 'must-have' is my 'unnecessary clutter'. What I'll probably end up doing is removing all the shit you've installed by default (assuming the security manager will let me, of course) and installing Thunderbird and Adobe Photoshop.
> "Full 64-bit support - Windows 7 makes the most of powerful 64-bit PCs, the new desktop standard."
So did Vista and XP. Aren't you doing 128-bit computing yet?
> "Power management - New power-saving features are designed to help laptops run longer.
I don't have a laptop.
> "Windows Search - At last, searching your PC is as simple as searching the web."
OK, so this is a nice-to-have.
> "Performance improvements - It's designed to sleep and resume quicker, be less memory hungry, and spot USB devices faster."
OK, so that's nice too, but frankly I don't mind waiting for an extra 3 seconds for the computer to recognise the fact that I've put my USB stick in.
So, for my £200 I'm going to get 2 nice-to-haves and a load of guff I don't want.
Remind me again why I 'need' to upgrade?
culled from technet
"BRAD BROOKS: Yeah. You know, that is the best thing about what's happening with Windows 7 is all the excitement that's going on. I'm still humbled by the amount of customers that have participated in this process. We have literally had millions of customers downloading, using, and giving feedback on our beta and RC product, more than any other version of an operating system that we've done in the history of Microsoft.
We have also got a lot of enthusiastic customers that have been following every day all the news coming from Windows 7.
For those customers I've got something special, which is for customers in the U.S., Canada, and Japan, starting tomorrow on June 26th, is they will be able to pick up a copy or they'll be able to pre-order, excuse me, a copy of Windows 7 for delivery on October 22nd of either Home Premium or Windows 7 Pro versions. Home Premium in the U.S., example pricing will be 49.99, and the Pro version will be for 99.99."
I get to hand over £199 (lets face it.. no matter what it will be 199 quid no matter the conversion rate) for an OS that has not got all the security holes and issues of Windows Xp.
It has a whole new bunch of them that wont be fixed until SP1 is released and just like Xp wont become a decent OS untl SP2 is released (vista on the other hand is a dog and always will be)
The hardware requirements means win7 will run happily enough on this AMD dual core thing, but I suspect will run better on some quad core thing with 4 gig of ram and a Nvidia SLI gfx system.
But I cant see the point.
Everything works in windows Xp, my steam games and software tools etc and its not going to wear out like my car would over the next 10 years.
But I think the killer is, This box is a dual boot and runs in fedora linux all the time I'm not playing games.....
Well for a change looks like M$ are going the right way and putting their priceing at a point where their OS is actually realistic for the average home user as well as the enthuseast where as vista was just way to expensive initially so was hardly taken up in reality.
Win7 ultimate for me when its out as I do like it and have been using the RC since it was released.
You know what? I am tired of playing pricing games with MS. I bought my copy of Windows Vista Home Premium OEM, and also "obtained" a copy of Business (not pirate; it was a pressed Dell DVD for my Dell laptop with legit key, from some other Dell laptop through some school's [not mine] deal with Dell. Got it for $50 so it was a bargain for a full Business DVD. Only prob is that it is usable with Dell laptops, but that's OK since it's being junked in a few months anyway).
However, back to the point. I think a Technet Direct download-only subscription with one of those coupons floating around the net works out much cheaper than buying multiple licenses for my computers. Besides, with that subscription, I get to "evaluate" Windows Server 2k8 on my main PC, and get Windows 7 Pro for my laptop, and Windows 7 Ultimate for another computer. All much cheaper than buying those licenses retail or OEM and I get loads of other MS software to "evaluate". Since I don't run a business with any of these pc's (being a college student), that all works out. Why is it that not many other people do this?
"a) open a command prompt and use FTP *,"
lets see, open a command prompt, startup an ftp client (it's built into explorer so yay!) and type... what? Well I suppose you could look up details of an ftp site on the net... oh wait.
"b) use another machine and copy the installer across"
Good idea, but may be an issue if you only happen to have one pc. Or you may have 2 and be upgrading them both at the same time . Work pc's? For security reasons they usually frown on you copying stuff off the machines to a usb stick and block it (government employees can feel safe in the knowledge that this option is clearly available to them). I suppose you could get someone to email it to you, but then windows mail isn't included either. Oh well, you could always use webmail i suppose...
"c) Use Windows Update to deploy IE, and use that to go get another browser, and then "uninstall" IE."
I suspect this is actually what everyone will do, but rather than go and find another browser then uninstall it, they will just stick with IE as if it was installed all along.
My sentiments exactly, I can't really see my mum managing to do any of those. Unless windows update automatically installs it as a critical update, the average user won't be able to get online at all. I suspect there will just end up being an IE icon on the desktop that kicks off a one-click install process.
Although you did miss d) boot from an ubuntu live cd and use that to download a browser. Which surprised me as it seemed almost a given for a story like this :)
I paid for Vista Ultimate. I was promised extras. A shite robot game and animated backgrounds does not constitute this by any stretch of the imagination. Fuck 'em. It's the last time i get mugged by Microsoft. Especially when you consider that this upgrade is the rough equivalent of what Apple have done with 10.6. They should have got Visa right first time and honoured their commitments.
Write their own OS, put FireFox on it, pay for marketing it to the masses.
No, hang on. Why not just bitch about a company who provides them a platform for their software?
MS should prevent any browser other than their own onto their OS.
Let's then see a true equal playing field.
Removing IE8, then offering it via Windows Update ... isn't a proper remedy.
The only way to make up for their anti-competitive practices is to out of the box allow users to chose IE, Chrome, FF, Safari, Opera ....
Yes that's not fair to have them promote a competitors product, its not meant to be fair. Its supposed to be a remedy to undue the damage from their prior anti-competitive practices.
I am all for the EU forcing this upon MS. It won't hurt the consumers any to have a choice of browsers either bundled with windows or part of Windows Update.
Again the point is not to stop the anti-competitive practice but to undue any damage.
Love the new icons, thanks register overlords!
By the way I´m I the only one who finds microsoft rablings about windows pice booooooooooooooooring... As in more of the same release after release?
This is vista sp3 or what vista should have been since the beginning...
Put this where the sun doesn't shine
Hell will freeze over before I pay those monopoly inflated prices for an OS. We can all be assured that those poor mugs who live in blighty are going to have their hat nailed on by MS because those prices will not equate to those seen on the shelves here.
Personally I would prefer if we could get a windows free version of windows and wipe the smile of the septic tanks faces. A good idea might be to hand all that MS fine money over to Linux, then just watch all the whining over at MS's mouthpiece ZDNET.com
What ever is costs do you get the following 'out the box' :-
- Decent html editor
- Decent web browser ???
- Music editor
- Decent email program
- A system that isn't prone to virus/malware
- A 3d graphic app
- a midi creator
- A good media player (i.e anything other than windows media player)
- The ability to configure pretty much every aspect of the system
I'm guessing not.... Many linux distros however do have all these features....
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Is it just me or did it not use to be the case in Windows that if you put a web address in to the address bar of a normal folder window it would take you there? Sure I've had to do that in the past. You could also use a help file with the "jump to url option" - in certain apps like notepad, google it I don't have time to explain that method.
As I'm sure you're all aware one of the reasons Windows is so difficult to secure from a SysAdmin's point of view is that there are so many ways to perform one task.
They didn't even bother with fudging around with figures in Japan, they arbitrarily priced it at 14000yen (US$40 more expensive). When this offer runs out, an upgrade version (not the full version) of Professional will cost approximately US$300. I'm sure the full version will cost more. I was interested in upgrading from XP, but thanks to this obvious money grab they can kiss one sale (and many recommendations to potential buyers) goodbye.
Yup. To upgrade to '7' from XP Professional OEM I have to hassle with a Vista license just so M$ could add the 'purchase' to their books as a Vista 'sale'. So far I have 3 XP OEM licenses / machines and no 'sensible' upgrade path, license wise.
P*ss on M$ and their market model.
Now all I have to do is find a good Linux vector graphics and CAD program. Comparable to AutoCAD and Adobe suite you know. Hahahahah.
I suppose they'll be prying XP out of my cold dead fingers because I am a cheap bastard plus, hey, it's a depression and who the hell can capitalize new equipment and licenses these days. Probably all you folks who believe in 'green shoots'. And those locked into M$ product lines. Sigh.
Yes, indeed it is, for the sort of people who read and comment on a site such as this.
But take a step back and think about the normal people who might be unlucky enough to by themselves a new computer, and find they 'dont have the internet on it'.
Cue PC's being returned to shops because they don't have the internet etc...
or, as people have said, IE will most likely be available through WinUpdate, which will mean that (a fair majority of) people will just end up using it like the 'default' internet that it has always been.
I for one will be fine, i keep a copy of firefox, along with many other important/usefull apps on my 8GB usb stick, but not everyone is that way inclined.
(although i dont really blame Bill for this cock up)
My main machine, my laptop and my back up machine are Linux or Xp and some dual boots so I only need this to play online games.
Xp works, so do I need to consider buying another OS, it should be cheaper or free for all those muppets that bought Vista and for those like me that bought the ultimate version of vista we should be getting it free and with additional content or a cheque for the price of Vista.
I think XP for my games will continue to suffice at least a nother couple of years then. At least I don't have to run the risk of Beta gfx drivers like Vista.
No IE8 is a bonus
And the media player will still be absolutely !"£$!"£$" at cataloguing my MP3's into the order I have them in. (ie in their own folders) insisting that it's wierd way of doing it is better.
You really need to get a better job, working for MS obviously has a "Church of Scientology" affect on you.
However MS should raise it's prices, then more people will see the merits of Linux.
Here's what i get 'out-the-box' with windows that actually matters to me:
- Ability to install and play games (how come that's neer on the list when people spout about how great linux is?)
- Ability to install Firefox
- Ability to plank any member of the family in front of the pc
- Ability to configure a lot of the aspects of my pc (do people just go 'Open control Panel can't find it so it doesn't exist' instead of editing policies?)
- Define 'good' media player? WMP does everything i need it to with the added benefit of working with my MCE remote
And seriously, do people read the article? Where's all this confusion about the EU Full and Upgrade versions coming from?
US gets Full and Upgrade version. EU gets "Full" version WITHOUT IE for the same price as US Upgrade. EU doesn't get Upgrade WITHOUT IE because MS won't have it ready in time.
Once again the European Parliament stuffs it up. What about the rights of people to buy goods in the form that their manufacturer intended them to be (i.e, Windows 7 with IE8)?
Honestly all this talk of freedom of choice and protecting the consumer is absolute and utter BS. In previous incarnations, Windows has been one of, if not the most customisable operating systems available - I don't think this one is going to be any different. If the consumer doesn't like IE8 they will install a different browser, it’s as simple as that.
How many millions have they wasted forcing Microsoft to unbundle IE? Last time they did this with Windows Media Player (to produce XP N), what was the take-up of the bastardised version – almost zero (see http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/legal/european/04-24-06windowsxpnsalesfs.mspx).
So what are the consequences of this EP enforced removal of IE, besides the pissing off of Microsoft (the EPs largest OS supplier) and a not unsubstantial number of EU residents and organisations in the process? In Europe we are forced to pay full whack (no upgrade discount) for the product from 01/01/2010. Woohoo, way to go EP I’m glad to know our best interests are in such capable hands. What a bunch of tossers.
Please create a burning EP flag icon for people to use in their posts – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_European_Parliament_1973-1983.svg – it’s not currently used but should make the point.
-- "They will see it as a sign of weakness against Linux, which is free."
"Linux is only free if your time holds no value." - quote 'anon'.
I love Ubuntu, and i love Windows 7! i do, and will continue to, use both at my leisure!
it is the freetard stallmanite preachers that i can't be @rsed with - get over yourselves and get a life!
What you see, is Microsoft being obstructive, and continuing to abuse their monopoly. The EU has not "stuffed it up". It's Microsoft that's stuffing us right royally.
What they *should* do in the spirit of the EC ruling, and what the EU court might yet force them to do, is to ship it with a simple download tool, that starts with a page saying "download your choice(s) of free internet browser(s) by clicking below" and a set of links, of equal size, to MSIE, Firefox, Opera, Safari, and others(?)
What vendors will do, I hope, for those who are still stuck on a modem, is include a software CD containing all the common browsers pre-downloaded (except MSIE which you *have* to get through Windows Update because Microsoft don't offer it as a download.exe). Also OpenOffice and other common freeware.
Now someone's going to tell me that MS has agreements with all the majpr vendors that prevent them from bundling such an optional software CD containing products that compete with MS ones? Back to that EU court for round three!
Linux Lovers: Yes we know Linux is free. We all know you get lots of stuff with it. Just sit there in your slippers feeling smug and content. You're not going to buy this anyway - no need to comment.
OSX Lovers: Yes, we know Mac stuff is just better than everything else and Snow Leopard will be cheaper. That's because you already paid for it when you bought the hardware. Move along please - no need to comment.
XP Lovers - Yes we know XP is faster than Vista and this is just Vista SP3. And why would anyone want an OS with 'whizzy' stuff anyway - you're an IT professional FFS. Nothing to see here - no need to comment.
Seriously, Win7 is an excellent OS - most people I know who've downloaded the RC have been really impressed with it. I was running it on my AAO Netbook quite happily (until I replaced it with Ubuntu Net Remix - short attention span).
IF you like Windows, you may well find you like Win7. And at this price - it's a bargain. IF you like Windows.
PS - Currently running XP, Ubuntu, Mandriva, Vista and Win 7 RC on the various kits in my house. No bias here - well apart from the fact that I think all Apple products are shit.
"Seriously, Win7 is an excellent OS"
Only to someone who has no grasp of proper OS architecture and design principles.
Due to several serious and fundamental design flaws deep in its underlying framework every version of Windows up to now AND into the future is and will continue to be a poorly designed steaming turd.
They just keep on polishing it with every new release.