The real news is....
The real news is that there are still Microsoft Fans out there.
Windows enthusiast site JCXP.net is asking fellow fans to delete the Opera web browser from PCs and devices in an act of solidarity against European antitrust action. "Today we are proposing a complete boycott of all Opera software," David Taraso, editor of the JCXP group, wrote in a blog post late on Friday. Taraso blames …
All sides in this pissing contest are wrong. Yes, everyone. Possibly even me.
Bundled tools aren't bad - not being able to adequately remove and substitute them is bad.
The EC chose the management method out by imposing one restriction and not thinking about their wording - and Microsoft complied to the letter of the ruling, while spreading shitloads of FUD to cover their arses. This website's imbecilic kneejerk reaction doesn't help either.
An adequate solution would have been for the EU to force MS to make available the system hooks for their bundle tools so that others can code replacements - and rather than suppress the bundle tool, give users an option to remove it entirely.
The fact that a lot of game launchers (or other 3rd party tools) auto-invoke MSIE through themselves to get a web connection for anything makes an IE-less Windows basically impossible - had MS been forced to publish the hooks would have made integrated replacements much more viable.
So instead, MS gets to maintain their market share (pacifying the managers), everyone gets to suffer IE a generation longer, blackhatters get to rejoice, and arseholes on webforums get to geek out with another "delete <competing browser X day>" action. Nobody scores - awesome!
I guess they would have no problem if IE were completely removed from the OS (unlike just lying about it), including Opera and requiring Microsoft to charge $35 for any distribution no matter how?
Of course they would because they are Microsoft employees, Microsoft ISVs or just Microsoft promoters.
That much is obvious.
And consumer oriented group would insist upon a real choice. Not buying IE first and having to go through hell to get other browsers. But, that was obvious too.
Greetings and Salutations.
1) I use Opera for about 95% of my web browsing. The ONLY problems I have run into are on websites that are so badly programmed that they will ONLY work with IE or Firefox, or, since I also run Linux, require some M$-Centric thing like running an Active-X control. It is a great piece of software, in that it is small, fast, and, very solid.
2) M$ will have to work very hard and very long to reach a point where they have the moral high ground in the software world. They have such a striking history of underanded and overbearing dealings to push bad software that they already start from a losing position. Their
FanBoys are nothing more than the annoying imps, scurrying around one's feet and poking at one's ankles with their little pitchforks, attempting to be significant.
Not that I have a bad attitude about Microsoft and its software, of course. I just seem to run right on the verge of ulcers from the stresses of having to keep the blasted systems running well and virus/malware free. The Linux systems I administer just keep ticking along...it is great.
Lessee .. Opera Software is a small piss-ant of a company that puts out a browser that's not very popular outside of the smartphone universe. Microsoft is a heavy-handed monopolist that likes to bear down on the OEMs who bundle its products with their computers, and has been convicted of such by at least two different governments. Oh, I see it now. Microsoft's plight is SO OBVIOUSLY Opera's fault.
Microsoft shouldn't be force to bundle and support opposing products. That is the exact opposite of free markets and monopoly power abuse. Then you get legal issues that sprout up over bundled browsers copyrights and implementations. This is one reason why a lot of linux distrobutions don't bundle free but closed license products.
The only solution that I find workable is to not bundle IE with oem versions of windows. That way the manufacturer can choose the best browser to fit the systems they put together. No OEM would even consider selling a machine without a browser. The retail versions should have a browser because without one they won't be able to download an alternative.
I use and enJoy opera(since version 3.72), but their idea of a boot up choice of browsers is taking one companies evil market share grab as an excuse to pull one themselves.
I highly doubt a bunch of microsoft fanboys would even use opera in the first place. With current market share, most web developers won't even support it.
'Taraso compares the browser ballot idea with General Motors being forced to hang an air freshener in their cars suggesting, "Perhaps you would prefer a Toyota?"'
No! It is more like saying 'you have a GM vehicle, now, would you like to use GM maps on your satnav or some other mapping system?'
No one is suggesting that the user should be offered a different OS as Taraso seems to imply.
So much fuss over such a silly thing - ultimately MS is producing and marketing a product. Use it or don't. Regulating them to hell and back so they have to offer countless versions seems plain daft. And suggesting they should bundle the other major browsers with Windows as well is just wrong - my is Microsoft obliged to market and distribute someone elses software?
I agree with Jeroen regarding the system hooks, and it should be easier to remove IE entirely and replace it. Simple as.
Perhaps a similar case will arise next regarding the calculator tool?
I mean for heavens sake, Microsoft are no angels, but expecting them to be a pack mule for other companies software is just pathetic. if people want to use Opera, Chrome, or whatever browser floats their boat, it should be made relatively easy for them to do so - but MS sole obligation is this matetr should be to make IE replaceable without having to jump through hoops. they certainly shouldn't have to strip IE from their releases.
Ultimately if people hate Microsoft that much they'd resort to petty cajoling, they should just switch to Linux and be done with it.
Quoted: Taraso compares the browser ballot idea with General Motors being forced to hang an air freshener in their cars suggesting, "Perhaps you would prefer a Toyota?"
Poor analogy. Actually, it is more like "We've included a broken radio in this car, perhaps you would prefer standard's compliant radio that works?"
has Opera got that with a 1% share of the userbase Microshills are afraid of it?
It's reliable, quick in operation, excellent for managing downloads, has a speed dial function, uses tabs, works well on many different platforms. Obviously it's pathetic that a tiny little company appeals to law to restrain Microsoft from using its' corporate leverage to squash competition. Netscape, anyone?
Microsoft have been asking for trouble..
Has no-one else noticed the change in IEs title bar - it used to be Microsoft internet explorer, it's now Windows internet explorer..
They get the hassle they deserve.
The BIG problem with excluding IE from Windows is - - - How does an average Joe User get online on their new PC to download a web browser - without a web browser.......
Open your eyes defiant. Microsoft have stifled competition for years by bundling. Putting IE on a level playing field is good for us as consumers as competition results in better products.
Using your position as a monopoly (Windows) to gain an advantage in another field (Browsers) is illegal for just this reason, and I support the EU's decision.
that wouldnt; work eithe.r
if it's up to the oem , what will they install ? 9 to 1 that it'll be IE. simply because most people will not buy a computer if it doesn;t come with IE.
how many people that own a windows based computer have ever heard about opera ? how about firefox ? how about chrome ? how about ie ? ( note : i am not saying :using. i'm asking the question how many people have heard about... so you coudl place a cehckmark on multiple browsers.
if you then take the total number of computer owners and compare with the number of checkmarks for each browser i think it will look like this
IE : 100%
Firefox : 10%
Opera : 0.5%
Chrome 0.01 %
Safara 0.000001 %
anything else : approaches the reciproke of infinite
I'm usually the first to jump on the anti-M$ bandwagon, but I can't say I agree with Opera in this case.
Forcing Microsoft to bundle or advertise competitors' products in Windows is just ridiculous, and M$ dispatching an OS with no browser is equally stupid. Unless they have an Opera installer lying around (which your average idiot...sorry, user is not likely to have), then their only option to get on the internet to download an alternative browser will be to get IE through Windows Update, at which point, unless they are already familiar with alternative browsers, they will just be happy with IE and stick with it.
I agree with Taraso that Opera should be doing some real marketing to get their browser better known. Opera has been responsible for alot of the browser innovations that have come out in recent years (tabbed browsing, speed dial, smart history) but they are still barely known because they never shout about it.
They need to make an effort to make themselves better known, preferrably by some route other than throwing their dummy out the pram and whining that IE has an unfair advantage. Firefox is in the exact same situation they are in, and they have carved out a decent market share because they make themselves known. It's certainly not because they have a superior browser.
Flames; because the Firefox fanbois are going to make me regret that last comment!
Who the hell uses Opera anyway these days? I tried it once on my Desktop a year ago and hated it. It had couple unique features but is a big yawner overall. Uninstalled it after 1 day. Heard the phone version gives the full HTML look so I tried that also on my Blackberry Curve. It was slow as hell. Dumped it for Bolt right away. Bolt is faster and easier to navigate.
Opera can't make a product worth my time so they cried uncle to EC. Losers. There's no need to boycott. Just leave them alone and they will fade away in no time.
Erm... Opera is payware...
Operatards, like MSTards, are just looking to "cash in" on this whole "unfair competition" hullabaloo.
2/3 of the users I talk to use Firefox. The other third just got their login credentials for their bank/credit card/WOW account/whatever stolen through an unpatched MSIE vulnerability, but claim there's "no way they'll use anything but Microshaft's browser."
Personally, I question the whole "antitrust" thing - just because IE is "there" right out of the box, doesn't mean that you MUST be fool enough to use it. Same with WMP.
Exhorting people to delete a piece of software that they most probably do not have and per definition would not have if they followed the exhortation must be the most bizarre pastime I have encountered in the recent past.
Burning time by posting crayon-drawn pictures of antropomorphic furry animals in various states of sexual activity is positively enriching and productive in comparison.
"Hello!!! Do I really need to explain to you how ridiculous that is?"
No sir. Indeed not.
Well that's clever, let's remove all programs of a company who is based OUTSIDE the EU to have a complain at the EU's directive.
Oh there's another stupid American who can't work out that Norway seceded from the EU decades ago, so thinks it'll make an impact.
"Norrrr way? Is that like just outside of Dallas?"
That's really going to make the regulators change their minds, isn't it?
Also consider this: If you're a Windows user it probably came with your PC, doesn't necessarilly make you a Windows fan does it? If you bothered to download and install Opera then you are probably an Opera fan. So the majority of Opera users with Windows are probably more likely to be fans of Opera than Microsoft. So this could well be something of an own goal. How many Opera fans are likely to scour their machines of all traces of Microsoft as a result of this?
@Defiant: You clearly thought it was good once otherwise you wouldn't have it on there would you? Are you that stupid that you install software that you don't even like? Actually, don't answer that, it's pretty clear how stupid you are.
News just in... apparently David Taraso has been found murdered. Police have recovered a sharpened Peek-A-Boo hack from the scene!
On a serious note: I read David T's more recent post and I can't believe how weak his arguement was. For example, apparently the fact that MS have pursued Google over antitrust issues and Google likewise versus MS, these things are all completely fine. Somehow it's *only* this issue that is a problem. Oh, and David also states that he doesn't really know anything about European antitrust laws. Great work there David... well done!
As far as I'm aware, no decision has been taken as to what needs to be done, but the reason why the EU (and oddly enough, Opera) are somewhat less than enthused at MS's remove-IE solution is because that's likely to have a net result similar to Windows-N.... e.g., it won't change anything! But the EU have stated that they are taking previous remedies, including Windows-N into account whilst deciding what to do here.
Yep, MS having to ship competitors products would be a bit weird for sure. But the reason for this proposed solution is because MS have a near monopoly position in the OS market place and have a history of abusing their position to move into other markets.
I'm interested in why any MS fanbois care. First up, Opera are not competing with MS as regards Operating Systems. So if Windows ships with IE or Windows ships with Opera, MS still get paid the same and users will continue to use Windows. And leading on from that, why do the fanbois think that MS cares?
The answer is: MS want to have IE available as a tool to extend their platform, so it is likely to be used to extend Silverlight market share for example. Opera conversely would favour standards compliance because that provides them with a level playing field. So would Mozilla, Google, etc.
Whilst IE8 is almost as good as anything else as regards standards compliance, MS only produced this after years and years of punting IE6 and telling us that that festering pile was as good as it gets and that they wouldn't be developing it any further. The only thing that forced them to produce IE7 and then IE8 was erroding market share and possibly the threat of EU action.
If the EU does nothing, everyone suffers. Even if you're an MS fanboi, why would you want IE to have market share?
I'd get rid of Opera and replace it with IE. If I could.
Firstly, for some reason Adobe CS3 insists on installing a crippled version of Opera somewhere in the bowels of my system, purely for the support documents...
Secondly, the horror that was Vista made me try a Mac when my venerable Vaio Z1 with XP died. I couldn't believe what I'd been missing. So no chance of installing IE on OS X!
So, no dice Bill. I like what I have, and I'm staying with it.
I love opera. Even though im currently on Chrome.
My list is
Something | --- REPEAT * Infinity
I can imagine. Install Windows 7 and have a popup
*Which web broswer would you like to install?*
Microsoft Internet Explorer 1 (With Latest Updater)
Microsoft Internet Explorer 2 (With Latest Updater)
Microsoft Internet Explorer 3 (With Latest Updater)
Microsoft Internet Explorer 4 (With Latest Updater)
Microsoft Internet Explorer 5 (With Latest Updater)
Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 (With Latest Updater)
Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 (With Latest Updater)
Microsoft Internet Explorer 8
And a scroller bar that doesnt seem to work. If you get to another browser. It will magically (Crash)
I think the big issue many are ignoring in this case is why such extraordinary lengths are being proposed. Microsoft didn't get majority market share just because they bundled their browser with the OS, they got majority market share because they (amongst other things) repeatedly stopped any attempt for an OEM to bundle a different browser.
So, the issue is not whether Microsoft should be bundling someone else's browser.. it is what should be done to undo the damage they did by making sure no one else could bundle a different browser. Putting a price on the damage is one option but one which does little to undo the damage to the browser market. Forcing Microsoft to bundle other browsers is actually a very mild punishment for them, akin to making them do community service.
For those still not following the point and crying about the death of the free market and how socialists are trying to kill Microsoft, maybe the somewhat limited but factually correct and unbiased BBC report from 2000 will paint a picture for you: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/business/2000/microsoft/635689.stm
Competition is vital to a working free market and a company in Microsofts position going out of its way to ensure it has no competitors by manipulating the market should be unforgivable to anyone who believes in a free market. The idea of a free market is for inclusive competition not no rules monopoly, hence free market rather than free for all.
Opera didn't tell the EU what to do, they just made a complaint, and in a democracy everyone has the right to do that. Some Americans need to learn this. Opera isn't even based in an EU country, so rest assured that the EU wouldn't be doing all this if they didn't want to.
And as for some of the nonsense being spouted here and elsewhere. Anyone who uses phrases like 'Hello!!!!!' in a written document is either immature or trailer park trash. And a ballot screen isn't like GM having to hang adverts for Toyota on its air fresheners, it's more like hanging a choice of air fresheners from the mirror. Opera don't make an operating system, and by definition, you need to have bought Windows to get that ballot screen. And how does everyone boycot a browser that no one uses? What kind of a statement/request is that, and why do *you* want to tell everyone what browser to use or not use? Sounds like the EU need to investigate *you* too because the EU is a democracy. Perhaps you don't live in one and so don't understand the principle?
I've never seen such a wave of irrational hate against a small company who are against MS before, I really haven't. It's as bad as the foaming at the mouth you get from the Unix or Firefox fanboys AGAINST Microsoft. All of which leads me to wonder if these are genuinly heart-felt comments or some kind of viral campaign. Or maybe it's just computer nerds out for a lynching for any reason. Why would a normal person be scared of an EU investigation? Surely if MS are doing nothing wrong, the Eu will find in their favour? Unless they have their own agenda, in which case why blame Opera for that? As I said, they're not even in the EU, no more than Google, Mozilla, Apple and all the other companies whose prints are on the knife.
Like a previous commenter said, it's funny how a class will sit in silence for so long, scared of the bully, but then turn on the person who finally stands up to them.
While most people reading this will pick their favourite techie brower, some will pick FF, others IE some Safari, and a few Chrome. The problem is that if Opera wants a bigger market share it does have to get its name out there. Being a web developer myself I have 5 browsers installed and to be honest I have no out right favourite. Most people out there are "normal" users with very little tech knowledge and most believe what they hear from friends and family. The reason why IE and FF enjoy the market share that they do is that they get a lot of press and make waves. Chrome and Sarafi have the backing of mighty Google and Apple and that is the main reason why the are not at the bottom even after coming to the game so late. Opera needs to get out the and actually do some marketing for themselves, good or bad, but at least get their names out.
At the end of the day people are only going to choose from what they know. Putting an option of all the browsers within the Windows Setup is not going to make you install that option if people don't know what it is and what it is about.
It seems that the EC thinks that ALL computers MUST use Windows. If they really wanted to curb the perceived monopoly M$ has, they should look at why Windows shows up on such a large number of computers and why there are so few drivers written for use with Open Source software.
I use Linux every chance I can, and prefer it, but Windows is Microsoft's operating system, and should not be forced to keep certain applications off just to satisfy some whining. I also remember the days that you had to pay to get the non-adware version of Opera. Anybody else curious about this? I do have to say that Opera on my cell phone blows IE out of the water and into orbit.
Those who jump on the fact that most Linux distro developers put Firefox on as default probably don't realize that Firefox is not embedded in the system and can be removed quickly and painlessly with the package manager (where you can also find - and install - replacement browsers). There is a decent assortment of browsers available, but Firefox (in my opinion) is the tops, with Seamonkey coming in a close second - but it has roots attached to Firefox.... For those who like to live life on the edge, there is Dillo, and even further out on the edge is Lynx!!! Try surfing eBay with Lynx!!!! LOL
Paris: She knows better than the EC!!
..if IE wasn't so unutterably shite then maybe, just maybe, people wouldn't feel it necessary to, you know, demand it's destruction.
People won't not-buy-Windows because it doesn't have IE. THEY WILL HAVE IT FORCED TO THEM ANYWAY. This just stops Microsoft wasting thousands of pounds of companies money by allowing ignorant users to continue using rubbish software.
Opera is free and works.
IE isn't and doesn't.
Feel free to continue using it, while you're there, send me some money for laughing in your face?
I hope there is a forced voting system for each browser. The blue E might be familiar.. but with 1.5 stars.. Hmm.. maybe this "Firefox" that I hear my IT literate friends talking about is worth a go with all those stars?
Version 8 and still not working properly. Time to give up the pointless fight Microsoft, it makes you no money, costs other people development time and for what? Brand presence? Yeah, should have considerer that before "Vista-capable" and then "Vista-itself". Now you'll sell us W8 like it isn't the same reheated shit with the broken bits taken out. Marvellous.
I want to Love Microsoft, they helped put computers on our desks, but instead of actually moving forward they just want to sit on their monopoly and watch creativity fester. Applications tether us to Windows, if a free OS let me play games...
Microsoft dosen't yet know how far the antitrust commission is yet willing to go. As far as i'm concerned, for the next 30 years, every microsoft exec and their oem partners better get a receipt every time they take a dump , cos they WILL be audited.... prolly no fines next time neither.. hard time ....: and these auditors have done dawn raids with militia backing in the past before too? no?
Way to piss people off!
At least the Russian Mafia wasn't this cocky!
I don't think I have seen this level of stupid, all in one place for ages - its cute :-)
Could they all be <12 years old? This does not seem likely....
...so that would just leave a stunning level of *STUPID*
Hah just when you think you have seen it all...
There are actually MS fan boys? Here I was, thinking it was all brought and paid for astroturfing by PR firms.
The still got suckered in though. Quick thought 2 stage thought experiment;
1) are MS allowed to steal any old software like say the Opera code and bundle it in Windows (like they did with Stacker code in MSDOS 5.0 days? No, why not? Because it is illegal.
2) Are MS allowed to use there monopoly position to crush competition and stop advances that benefit consumers in areas like browsers. No, why not? Because it is illegal - check Wikipedia for a quick summary of a massive court case which MS *lost*.
That MS are losing the browser war is a good thing; even though competitors have to give away their software to compete, the fact that MS appeared to have stopped development on IE until Firefox showed them up, is a clear example of what happens with a monopoly; remember they wanted to cripple standards to the point that you would have needed IE on Windows to interact with the world. Apache, FF and google and maybe the court cases helped stop/delay that future.
I am not a Opera user or a fan of companies getting a leg up from governments to compete, but I would like to see more choice available to consumers to help innovation. So why not ensure a level playing field by allowing all OEM world-wide to choose a browser. IE will be there under the hood anyway, and if Opera or Google can convince OEM makers that there browser makes a good selling point, then all the better. The OEM's just need protection from MS playing the license pricing game... and encouragement.
You buy Microsoft's release on a new machine, sans browser. You install your favorite browser.
After your first run through the monthly patch, a new patch is downloaded.
You then start up your web browser like Firefox....
A pop comes up...
"We notice that you're not using Microsoft's IE browser. Would you like to install it now?"
[Yes] [No] (yes button highlighted.)
If you say no, every time you try to launch your browser, you will be given this pop up notice until you cave in and install IE but just don't use it.
Yeah, that's the ticket! (Microsoft: Oh no, we didn't *ship* IE with the OS, the customer *chose* to download it.
Or better yet, they sneak it in an update and unless you don't run automatic updates and manually watch each update, it gets installed.
A black helicopter because you *know* Microsoft had already thought of this ....
Repeat after me people: "Windows is an operating system in exactly the same way as Ubuntu is: Not!"
Both Windows and Ubuntu are *distributions*. Packages. And *part* of that package includes an OS (Linux for Ubuntu, NT-Kernel for Windows).
So please kindly stop calling "Windows" an OS. It is not. It is a package that contains an OS, a GUI and a few apps on top.
And I, for one, would like to see more user options as to which apps were actually installed by MS. Personal choice: I *don't* want *any* traces of IE or WMP on my installs (not even residual DLLs). I'll find my own browser and media player, thank you very much.
Better car analogy is:
IE is the car radio, It might not pick up all the stations or play the sound correctly. But it's so tightly integrated to the car that if you remove or replace it, your brakes might fail, Windscreen wipers will not stop moving, your horn will go off every time you turn left and you're tires will wear out quicker......
This post has been deleted by its author
I've used Opera for years (even paid for a license key back in the day). I found it worked best for me. And that's what a browser should be, a personal choice. You like IE? Use it! You like Firefox? Use it! You like Safari? Use it! You like Mosaic? Use it (if you can)! Just don't have the audacity to point at me and say my browser choice is wrong, because I'll tell you to piss off.
That being said, that blogger needs the WAAAAAMBULANCE desperately.
Paris... because even SHE doesn't want to be limited in her choices.
By Daniel Pimley Posted Monday 15th June 2009 19:47 GMT
I hope they will also stop using Google's search engine as a protest against that company's role in this despicable anti-Microsoft action.
"One Bing to bring them all and in the darkness bind them"
That will really do it.... then the microsoftys won't even be able to find their own a$$holes when they try to 'bing' it.
The joke is the BS blinkered microsofty wankers...
but I can't help thinking that MS have got themselves into an enormous mess here
With the amount of anti-MS sledging going on, I'm happy to have a pro-MS guy pip up, took some balls to do that.
But what would have happened if MS did plumb in and document API calls into Windows for web browsers? Perhaps we would have had a richer internet experience, and even tighter internet integration into the OS, given a bit of competition.
Paris because she ensured documented, unrestricted access to her routines to all
"This is absolutely nothing more than a company who can't legitimately gain market share trying to squeeze their unpopular browser onto Windows systems," Taraso wrote.
What a moron.
It's not a case of a company who can't legitimately gain market share; it is about a monopoly position preventing any other company from even standing a CHANCE of gaining any market share to begin with.
Taraso has pinned his colours on his sleeve well and truly ... and he presumably has forked up a fortune for, "Microsoft Lick Ass v2.0"
1) Opera hasn't been payware for the better part of a decade and even when it was you had the banner-ad version. If you think it's payware/adware you're officially old and out of touch.
2) Opera doesn't have many unique features because Opera isn't a company that patents every little thing they do. Imagine if Opera had patented tabbed browsing back in the day? Or blocking scripts on a site-by-site basis?
3) No MS fanboys use Opera.
WINFLP gives you the option of not installing IE during OS install. To use the internet you can just use Windows Explorer, it may not have IE installed but Explorer functions same, in a limited way.
If you install WINFLP without IE, then try to download IE7 and install it, it fails because you "do not have an existing IE on this computer", but you can download any other third party browser and install it fine. It things like this that drive you rational M$ user crazy.
You beat me to it, software fans are blinkered, celibate idiots. Get a life, a computer is a tool not a fucking football team.
After a few years of being a firefox user (and loving most of it) I ended up going back to IE. Firefox of late has been buggy, resource hungry and the frequent forced updates can come at some irritating moments.
IE on the other hand seems to just work and is n't as prone to needing a restart after watching my CPU going up to 100%.
OK - Firefox probably could be "tweaked" on my systems to run better but I really can't be arsed doing that when IE8 just seems to work period.
As for Opera Mobile (which came preinstalled on my phone)... again, buggy, prone to crashes, resource hungry and takes ages to start up compared to IE. With the SPB enhancements for IE I can use tabs when I want to, completely removing any need for another browser.
No, no, your all wrong, it's like this...
It's like having a bag of crisps, but the crisp makers have made the crisp flavours so that your standard tongue can't taste every bit of flavour correctly, and if they remove the flavour then the crisps are boring and there is not much point in eating them. So the boss of all the crisp makers says that the crisp maker has to use another crisp makers flavours that the standard tongue can taste fully, or at least give the taster a choice of which crisp makers flavour they want to have on their crisps.
Yours was better but still crap
If IE is the car radio and you want it "completely" removing because you refeuse to use the radio that BMW gave you.
Then you find that the satnav which you kept has gone completely silent cause the speakers were part of the BMW radio system and you end up with several speeding tickets from not hearing the speed camera warnings
Then when your wife calls you to tell you she's shagging her dance instructor you can't here a word cause the bluetooth kit also hasn't got any speakers to use any more
So you install a new radio with new speakers... of course the new radio won't work cause in your eagerness to really remove all traces of the old BMW radio you also ripped out the antenna
lifelesspoet wrote: "Microsoft shouldn't be force to bundle and support opposing products. That is the exact opposite of free markets and monopoly power abuse."
Shouldn't that have read: "Microsoft believe in the exact opposite of free markets and in monopoly power abuse."?
They're not getting singled out for special attention - they've been caught with their hand in the cookie jar and now daddy is preparing to give them a leathering. That is all.
Who said anything about making MS bundle a competitor's product? Not us, not the EU. This is just a MS fanboi strawman tactic and utterly irrelevant.
What most people want (well, most people with sense) is the ability to remove COMPLETELY IE and use the browser of their choice of EVERYTHING that is browser related.
That mean Windows Update MUST run on standards complaint browsers.
I can nuke FF totally from Ubuntu (just one example) if I so choose. I cannot do that same with IE on Windows.
Note to MS fanbois: hiding and icon is not removing.
Oh, and stop with the car analogies. They're false analogies and worse than your crappy strawmen. Still, if you have to resort to those kind of arguments, I guess you have nothing real to base any opposition on!
I have not previously bothered about the browser wars and have typically used IE because it was there. However, this latest round of bullying from Microsoft and their supporters has pissed me off enough to download and install Firefox.
I might just install Opera on my Nokia mobile just for the hell of it - I have been using the native browser to date.
The utter contempt shown by Microsoft and their representatives towards EU legislature is staggering. I hope the EU ban their products from sale within the EU.
The new version of messenger will use your default web browser.
I think the old versions were tied to IE because of hotmail being a bit choosy over which browsers it would open in. They finally sorted out hotmail to work in most browsers so messenger has followed.
Ironically this is at about the same time that I started to find firefox to bloated to use.
For many years now outlook, word and excel have all used the default browser
... if you didn't have a basic browser bundled with any new operating system - how in god's name are you suppose to download the competitors one??
The only thing I use IE for is to open firefox.com... once that's installed, I never see it again. If it wasn't for IE, I'd have to keep a standalone disk or a second system around with any old version of another browser, install it, go to the website and get the newest version, install again.... this only makes things harder... EU should be spending our money on something much more useful, not making the average users life impossible.
It will also open the floodgates for people like dell and acer to put on a basic P.O.S browser that doesn't let you uninstall or change it from default too... because they "needed to".
I'm not pro microsoft, but even I can see they need to bundle some sort of browser with windows - everybody else does, and since they have their own browser, it's stupid not letting them. It's not like they are restricting people putting on another browser - or putting in roadblocks to make it more difficult.
The EU are well within their rights to stop anti-competitive behaviour. If Microsoft want to sell their products in the EU then they have to obey the laws of the countries in which they trade.
It's all very well talking about the free market, but when a monopoly exists and that company uses its market position to force out competition then free trade doesn't actually exist. Remember that competition is what the free market is supposed to be about, and also competition has forced MS to improve their products.
...it would have more market share than Firefox. It doesn't because it's shit.
I don't see Mozilla running to tell mum about big, bad M$ stealing their lunch. They just get on with the business of making a good browser and are steadily taking share off IE
Opera = Pack of whingeing cry babies who blame MS for their own lack of talent.
They should invite the people from Lotus software over for a moaning session about how they are all so hard done by.
"2/3 of the users I talk to use Firefox. The other third just got their login credentials for their bank/credit card/WOW account/whatever stolen through an unpatched MSIE vulnerability, but claim there's "no way they'll use anything but Microshaft's browser.""
Yes, those unpatched MSIE vulerabilities, gets them every time. If you believe that that many people suffered from MSIE vulnerabilities you're an idiot. 95% of the time it's either user stupidity (ie going to a phishing website then wondering why they appear to have spent £300 on ballet lessons) or some random plugin (ie Flash). Blaming it on IE is the easy way out, at the end of the day there's not that many people actually get stung from MS browser vulnerabilities..
In amongst all the flames and knee-jerk reaction, I suggest that in all future articles on this subject, the Register staff should include links to download a selection of browsers. For this list, I suggest Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer, Opera, and Safari. ( Before anyone gets excited about the order of these suggestions, I will point out that they are listed here in alphabetical order, NOT any other preference. )
For those who say "WHY?" I will answer that this lets El Reg track and publish the cost in money and time of providing this information to the "ordinary users" that will now have to exercise otherwise-unused brain cells in order to make a choice. My working hypothesis is that this cost will be in the range of reasonable to minimal.
If nothing else, this may inject some FACTS into the debate. Hence, the heresy.
Just do me a favour, go into your office, and your home, and maybe the computer suite at a library, and without any prompts - ask everybody to download opera and firefox from the internet, but they can't use any web browser to do it. I'm assuming even in a techie environment, maybe not even a quarter of people would have the prior knowledge to open the command line and know the relevant commands and urls. Most people who use ftp usual google for a client like filezilla or cuteftp *spits*... or use IE as an ftp browser... I know how to use ftp via command line and I still install filezilla on all my systems.
It's not all about us you know, if it was, I'm sure there wouldn't be any phishing, spam or botnets around the inter-webs!!
Opera as Payware? Where have you been? Like Mycho said, it hasn't been for over a decade.
I run at least six browsers and Opera is my first choice. For those sites that say "IE only" Opera has a fun little feature allowing you to identify it as IE. Want to view multiple tabs at the same time (say watching a woot-off and browsing at the some time), use Opera. Accidently close a tab "ctrl+z" to reopen it. Find me a browser that can do that and I 'might' consider switching from Opera.
I used to travel from Finland to Irving, TX regularly. Whenever I arrived at Dallas Fort Worth airport, my car was waiting. I'd ordered a "Compact" - whatever that means - and was told where to collect it.
I got in the car, switched it on, drove 20 miles to my hotel, went to bed.
Following morning, I started the car, drove to work. Did it for 5 days, then drove it back to the airport, and flew home. It did what I wanted. Nothing more.
NEVER opened the hood/bonnet, never felt an urge to decompile the engine. It did what I needed. Got me from a -->b.
I use linux, OK, 'cos as an unemployed bloke I can't afford or need Vista/XP/Windows-7, nor "Office 2007" or whatever. I don't play games, I don't watch pr0n, I just wanna e-mail, Skype my kids in UK, browse for a fuc*king job, and write some application letters. Openoffice.org does for me.
In short, couldn't give a flying fuc*k what's "under the hood" so long as it works for me.
Am I alone? Or am I in the presence of bearded, pizza-chomping, sandal-wearing Demi-Gods???
I personally have three different FTP clients of various age on my main Mac and two more on my main Winbox. Not counting the ability to FTP using the command line. And several major download sites are bookmarked in my various FTP clients. i don't need MSIE to download anything.
That said, I still have MSIE installed on my main Mac. MSIE v5.something, that is, that being the last version that Mickeysoft released for Macs before running away with their tails between their legs. There are certain websites which simply don't work except with some version of MSIE and I often can't be bothered to launch VMWare on the Mac and load MSIE for WIndows or to walk over to a Winbox. And every time I touch MSIE 5.x I'm reminded of how absolutely crappy MSIE is, and how little has changed with it over the years despite all the work and money that Mickeysoft has tossed at it.
And then when I'm done with that particular website I go back to using Safari or Firefox. And may even see if Opera is any good on Macs. It still behaves like the poor man's Firefox, and I already have Firefox.
I see much of these comments being arguments over bundling or non-bundling of browsers or lists of browsers in an applet during setup, etc.
@Bundle? - Anonymous Coward Posted Tuesday 16th June 2009 09:39 GMT
Yes, the Opera stance is that a list of browsers is supplied by MS to install during setup, which must be done with *or without* network connection, so they must be bundled. Whether the "us" you refer to is Opera or not is not clear from your comment, so I don't know if "you" are calling for bundling or not. If you are not personally calling for it, cool. But otherwise I must be missing your point - my personal opinion won't change MS or EU actions at all, either.
But all this misses the point, I think.
IE already does a setup, at first run, for "installing" a search provider. Why can't the first run home page of IE* simply go to an EU-managed browser clearinghouse? This can be redirected from the main IE* first start page when an EU country of origin is detected (from network ISP origins) and will ensure to the EU's satisfaction that other browsers are being promoted as options because they will have control of it. Records of sales vs. hits will ensure that this is actually working or not, eh?
MS would still be required to allow the user to completely remove IE*, and I definately agree to that as well... But that may be yet another battle. :(
I used the ftp built into the command line on a UNIX box to get my first FTP client. This was back in 1994 or 1995. I've since replaced that client (it was for Mac System 7) and have set up bookmarks in successive new clients for useful sites. Typically it's quicker and easier to use the FTP client to grab stuff than it is to use a web browser, so I use them to this day. If I want to, for example, download all items in a particular directory using a web client, I have to click on each. If I use my FTP client, I merely direct it to select all and download. Or to select all new versions. Or to select all which begin with the letter 'a'. Or any other parameter I choose. And this way I avoid the tedious advertising which clogs up so many web sites.
Among the sites I have in my FTP bookmarks are Apple's and Microsoft's download areas. Mickeysoft sometimes has restrictions on what can be ftped out, but you'd be surprised at what is _not_ restricted. Apple couldn't care less, you can get the full versions of some older OSes off Apple's site without a problem. This has been useful when I have to fix an older machine.
I don't think anybody can reasonably against the statement that MS are using their effective monopoly in the desktop OS market to stifle competition in the browser market. The interesting thing is that the abuse goes deeper than that.
Anybody who has experience of MS server products will know that they often have a web server built in, what reasonable server product doesn't these days? With a browser client you can access your server from a range of devices anywhere. Great. Well sort of. MS make damn sure that to access the full functionality you must be using IE. And of course to use IE you need Windows.
Which brings us to the real abuse of market position here. IE is not free, not by a long chalk. You have to buy a copy of Windows to run it. So in structuring their products in this way MS do all they can to make sure that if you use MS server products you have to buy the MS desktop OS too. MS have heard of standards so they could code their server products so they'd work with any browser, but they choose not to.
That they carry on like this is understandable. You'd expect any company to try to leverage any advantage to make more money. However consumer choice is important, no matter what some might think it's a very important part of capitalism. This is why we need official, commercially independent bodies to police anti-competitive behaviour. The only problem in this case is that the EU took far too long to act.
Ever seen a toddler misbehaving and continuing to do so while the parents turn a blind eye in the hope that it will stop on it's own? Ever seen the look of confusion on the toddler's face when the parents finally give in to the disapproving stares of the assembled company and scold the child? That look says, "Hey! I've been doing this for half an hour why are you telling me off now?" And I'll bet you a pound to a pinch of smelly stuff that the toddler will have a hard time stopping the behaviour even after a sound telling off. Bad behaviour has momentum.
In this case MS are the toddler and the EU the parent who should have nipped the behaviour in the bud as soon as it became apparent. Then maybe the toddler wouldn't have thrown a tantrum when it was punished.
Oh and if IE is such an integrated component of Windows that it can't be removed without crippling the OS, how have they managed to remove it without crippling Windows 7? Simple answer: They haven't, they've just taken away the stub exe that fires it all up.
And finally why have so many pro MS commentards above made the assumption that Opera in some way equates to Linux? Opera isn't even open source for god's sake.
Lets face it people are idiots boycotting Opera is not going to help anyone especially Microsoft
The EC are being stupid about this
Opera are not helping themselves at all
Microsoft, well they are just doing there usual stonewalling act
Lots and Lots of programs relies on ie to be there to run , this it self is unfortunate but is a truth to remove IE from windows would cause chaos
I try not to use Internet explorer, its there on my desktop Box minding its own business ready for the few times its needed
EC go back to measuring the bend in bananas
This is a start at addressing the disgusting business practices of this crapware manufacturer. Microsoft's software is ubiquitous, not because it is good , but because it is pushed like heroin by a unscrupulous, malevoloent company. Anyone who thinks otherwise obviously doesn't know their MS history.
THe real issue the EU should have adressed years ago is the fact that it is nigh-on impossible to buy a PC (not a netbook) from a shop that hasn't been precrippled with an MS Windows installation. Why is this allowed to continue? It is corrupt. It is stifling technological development. It is taking away European jobs. It is siphoning European money straight to Redmond. And worst of all it is a severe infingement of the rights of gadget-buying geeks everywhere.
The irony is, if you have been uing Opera for a long time, you will see that FireFox copied a lot of the ideas from Opera, so the single poster up there who stated that opera looks like a bad copy of Firefox ... sorry mate, you aint been in computing long enough, I for one am an Opera user, on both windows and Linux, my Linux came with Opera pre-installed..
I will use Firefox for sites that Opera doesn't like...I refuse to use IE and for ALL of my clients I give them FireFox or Opera, whichever they choose, but block IE...
Security to me is important and IE has holes you can fit an elephant through, and don't you even think of tellingme to patch it, as some other user said, as soon as you enable automatic updates in Windows, they screw you...
Some have questioned regulatory agencies telling a company what to do with its own products. The answer is simple. M$ has essentially a monopoly in operating systems (though I am a happy Ubuntu user) and is leveraging this to gain an advantage for its other software. That is anti-competitive. Keep in mind that M$ loses lawsuits on a regular schedule.
If folks want to boycott Opera, how about doing the same for all other victims of M$ predatory practices? Let's see, in addition to Opera that would include Apple, Corel, Netscape, RealMedia, Java, OpenOffice,org, Lindows, and anyone trying to adapt to their server protocols. The point is, M$ is a Machiavellian company and for them to whine about competition is truly hypocriical.