was finally extracted "from the buttocks area"
So I take it the phone will be destroyed after the court case as insurance does not cover this sort of damage.
A text-happy Wisconsin teen who refused to stop messaging during a high school maths lesson was arrested, charged with disorderly conduct, and now faces a court appearance for her trouble. The unnamed 14-year-old girl was busted last Wednesday at Wauwatosa East High School. According to the rap sheet posted on The Smoking Gun …
Whether or not you consider the punishment disproportionate, context is all, what other sanctions did the girl refuse to accept?
What would you do about disruptive behaviour?
What happened to learning to "respect the group" and other social skills that would be useful to her in the rest of her life?
Do you think teachers should accept all individualistic behaviour at the expense of group development?
Do you think teachers should "put up or change jobs"?
Do you think you could do the job?
You sound like the smirking git at the back of class egging the girl on. Meanwhile nobody learns anything.
Actually Gerry, I think YOU missed the point in that it was entirely about disproportionate responses.
The other aspects might include a teacher who wasn't able to handle the situation in an appropriate manner, excessive use of the law in the US and the specific need for electronic communication at that juncture. Discuss.
Fair points, but arresting her? seems a tad extreme... somethings gone wrong somewhere when the only way to resolve a problem in a classroom is to call the police. How long before they need
to call in SWAT teams?!
Obviously teacher training needs to include a firearms component - "put that phone down or 'say hello to my little friend.' " ...
I get that if the girl refuses to acknowledge anything the teacher does, the teacher is forced to escalate the situation. But what about sending the girl to the headmaster? Calling her parents? Surely there are a few steps between yelling "hand me that phone!" and calling the cops?
And you Gerry, sound like a nazi. God forbid anyone should exhibit any behaviour outwth the norm of the collective.
What's with your line of extreme questioning? Are we not allowed to have a little chuckle without your gestapo style inquisition? I come from a family of teachers and I've always held great respect for most of others too. Still, doesn't stop a certain percentage of them being total c**ts.
That aside, I'd have given her the belt personally. Whack some sense into her, perhaps breaking the phone into the bargain. Would you like that Gerry? Would you like to watch? Here, you take your turn, I'll take pictures for you.
Disruptive behavior was normal when I was a kid and its normal now. Maybe Teachers have a hard Life but it still isn´t right to press legal charges against a texting 14 year old.
If every Kid that was stubborn or disruptive in school got charged then noone would want to have children anymore. It´s expensive to have kids anyway, sueing more Money outta the parents wont be the key!
Actually i think YOUUUUUUUUUU miss the point - I expect the teacher did try other methods -
"Teach: Hey stop texting in my class
Kid: F U
T: go to the headmaster
K: F U
T: give me your phone now
K: F U, if you Fing touch it or me i'll have you arrested you Fing Paedo"
and so on and so forth. until police action seemed like the best action
As for legitimate need for communication - why not leave the class and make a call.
the fact is this (probable) escalation has been sadly missed by smoking gun and the reg, for the sake of a story - nothing new in that i guess.
do you really believe that the teacher said stop texting and then the next time it happened she just called the police? if so then please regain some grip on reality
go gerry, go gerry, go gerry
Ever worked in a school, as opposed to just having fond memories of being there and remembering how 'cool' the distruptive pupils were to your immature eyes? Ever seen what one or two seriously disruptive pupils can do to a whole class?
Without knowing the full details, passing comment is pretty pointless, but there are definitely times where I have been sitting in on a class and it's been pretty clear that the teachers, who are limited in what they can actually do to discipline disruptive pupils ["Sit outside and see me at the end of the lesson" "Fuck off you cunt, I'll get big john to shank you" etc] need to be able to resort to something beyond EU [or federal in this case, I imagine] sanctioned nice-speak.
There is a difference between being 'non-conformist' or not a 'sheeple', 'behaving outside the accepted norm' etc in school, and just plain fucking up an entire class for everyone else who might actually be interested in learning something, but can't get through the coursework because the teacher is spending so much time trying to control a couple of complete toss pots.
Not enough history here to know anything about the teacher/pupil/school competence & setup but, for me, if the lying brat wouldn't do as requested she and her folks have the problems that need dealing with more so than the School. I understand it is not uncommon for Security officials to be present in American Schools so it may have been an inadvertent escalation in response classroom event/screaming fit. It is to be hoped that All will get back to the joy that is mathematics very soon.
Is the IT reference the mobile phone or the mathematics lesson??
I know that kids can be troublesome: I´ve on the offending side myself for a long time. I also had to deal with groups of kids and found ways to either resolve the situation or resort to a higher authority, that being a teacher, headmsaster, etc. Now, calling the cops and ARRESTING a MINOR for sending Text messages....come on people....seriously. I don´t want to fall into the "yanks are wackos" bag, but it seems this news come on a regular basis from the their news agencies. What is the deal with their education/legal system ?
Considering the lack of info...
It seems odd to call the police. Was this girl beligerent???
I could understand some detention, but calling the police really seems excessive. To bad schools didn't use the same equipment we use on our production floor. Then no one would be able to use their cell phones from all the interference.
This story has many points, so it's easy to miss them, what with it being written in a subtle manner, and with tounge firmly planted in cheek.
There's the out-of-control kids; the over-use (abuse?) of the criminal justice system; the fact that teachers are put-upon, or can't hack it depending on your point of view.
And then there's the all-important IT angle, all of this was over a mobile. At least they mentioned what model it was.
I don't think that the escalation was left out for the sake of making a better story, but rather that it was implied for the sake of the article (no-one wants to read a 3 page he-said, she-said).
Frankly, I feel that this was a wonderful way to start my Thursday morning.
in a classroom ... full stop.
They should (and likely will at some point) simply remove them from kids the way they remove guns, i.e. with those metal detectors on entry.
I wasn't allowed calculators, then later walkmans and back then you had to 18 to get a phone (due to the airtime contract).... sorry to sound old but "bring back the old days" or at least bring back some of the restrictions.
Stupid kid, maybe a juvee record is what she needs to learn that she is not in charge and the world does not revolve around her.
When I was at school, say 35 years ago, there were teachers who by sheer force of personality controlled large classes. There were others, one in particular who was nicknamed "Frog" ....she entered the room, everyone started banging their desks and chanting "Frog! Frog!" as one, until she rushed out of the room in hysterics, and wasn't seen for some months(I think she might have needed treatment).
My point is that some people should realise that teaching post-pubescents is not for the weak or introverted, and either stick to 5-year-olds or not bother. If you need the cops to keep order, get another job now.
(Paris has been very naughty and needs a good spanking ASAP)
She wasn't admonished for the texting but for the trouble she caused by not fessing up and accepting she was doing something wrong.
I've been in situations a few times where I'd been ever so slightly naughty, had pleasant discussions with my accusers about how wrong I'd been and what I should have done and come away tail between my legs but without more serious consequences.
Well, Your Royal Smugness, it seems that your prejudiced assumptions are just as ignorant as those of whom you condemn.
The Reg's article is quite accurate albeit written in the flippant style we know and love.
The incident was triggered by the girl lying to a Resource Officer and necessitating an involuntary body search.
I suggest you check your facts before subjecting the readers to your noise in the comments.
After reading several posts it seems that many are out of touch with the new reality here.
The problem lately is very often neither with the teachers (many of whom really do try their best) nor with students (who can't always know better). The problem is the parents. It used to be that parents would assume out of the box that the teacher was competent (unless proven otherwise) and tell the whining teen to do as the teacher says. Now they tend to assume the teacher is incompetent and how dare he or she have anything negative to say about their darling.
So what do you do if you are a teacher?
If you discipline, you and/or the school gets sued.
If you so much as touch the student everyone cries sexual harassment.
Teachers no longer have any real authority in the classroom, and their actions tend to be second-guessed all the time.
Problematic students tend to hold up the entire class.
What's your solution if the student refuses to listen or even to leave the room?
Children are in a class to learn. Mobiles should either be off or not there at all. If a there is need to contact a child, this can be easily done by calling the school. There is no need for a child to have a mobile in school. Period.
I would also (outside of certain IT related lessons) not allow children to use a laptop or other mobile computing device in class. Children have no need of personal IT devices in school, they should use pen, paper and the library.
Not only would it stop shenanigans like this, it would reduce the amount of peer pressure children experience.
Oh, and don't start me on the over dependence on calculators. Before A-level there is NO NEED for a calculator. And even at A-level all that is needed is a fairly simple one with basic trig/log functions.
As to children who do not behave, bring the parents into it. Why are they not in the dock as well for fairly to teach their daughter manners and respect for others?
You all missed a step out. Why not call the parent(s) of the child and explain to them they have 2 options, come and take the phone themselves or you will call the Police. Parents expect schools to control their kids, but they just don't have the power to anymore.
Could you imagine your Mum or Dad coming into your class and telling you off in front of your classmates??? Certainly would have been a deterrant for me.
I for one am all in favour of the return of Capital Punishment, never did me any harm, just the fear of what could happen kept me in line.
Paris Hilton, cos she probably texted her way through school, and now thinks Gordon Ramsey is the PM.
Does anyone honestly think that calling the parents would have been any better?
Most of the parents would have come to the school all pissed about having to miss Jerry Springer or some other wasteful show.
As for the headmaster option this was in the US, they do not have headmasteres/headmistresses. It would have meant sending the student to the principle who would have thier hands tied behind thier back on what they can do.
The principle could suspend the student: this would mean a short vacation.
The principle could give the student detention: if the student then decides to leave there is nothing the teachers can do as touching the student would be means for dismissal.
Only option left is to call the cops.
...that the little ingrate resisted arrest.
I for one would love to have seen her fat lazy arse (assumed) tazered right there in the classroom. mob video clip on YT anybody?
A continuation from Arun Marsh's comments -
Police : Put down the phone maam.
Kid : F U
Police : Put down the phone now or we will incapacitate you.
Kid : F U I know my rights
Police : Put down the phone NOW
Kid : F U
I for one do NOT think it was excessive calling the cops knowing all too well how totally unrespectful they can be. Hell they'd be unrespectful to Mr Obama himself if he were there, totally ignorant to the fact he's surrounded in Secret Servicemen of course.
It seems to be that the answer is that the reason disproportionate measures had to be used was because all proportionate measures are already banned.
When I were a lad if you got caught being disruptive on that scale you weren't going to want to hide anything "in your buttocks area" anytime soon.
If a school can't deal with their pupils in such ridiculously banal cases, their teachers and disciplinary procedure are an abject failure. Handling unruly kids is an integral part of their role, and one they clearly can't do well enough.
There is a place for the police in schools, but it's only for the most extreme occasions. Kid with a gun? Sure. Kid with a phone? No.
Yes this story has all sorts of implications relating to various issues raised. BUT, I think Arun has hit the nail on the head with his example dialogue. I have done some teaching (UK) and this is exactly the kind of thing I experienced (and much worse), my last resort, after trying all rational approaches, would be to call the head from the phone in the classroom. The head would turn up and the conversation would go like this:
Head: Now Sharron, you know you are not allowed to use your phone during a lesson.
Shaz: F U
Head: !!? Right, youv'e been told before, please leave the classroom.
Shaz: F U. I'm textin my Dad to punch you after school. Which one is you car Sir? Is it this one [shows picture on phone to class]
A trip to the police station in cuffs might be whats needed to give them a wake up call.
My teachers did it the easy way. If the phone rang in class and didn't get shut off, you got booted out of the class. If you answered your phone in class or sat there texting, you were gone for a week... during which there would be a couple easy 10% exams. And missing more than 10% of the class for anything other than medical meant you failed.
I know a few people both in highschool and later in college that had to repeat courses because of thier cell phones. There was a reason we had 10min between classes.
Read the entire complaint posted on TSG and it will become clear to you. This was a school resource officer (most american high schools have a specially trained police liason officer onsite) that was called to deal with a repetitively disruptive student. The complaint makes it all clear: they knew she had the phone, couldn't figure out what part of her anatomy she shoved it up, and had to ring into the HQ and get a female officer out to frisk the girl for the phone. You can't frisk someone until their arrested and read their miranda. So there you go.
To be fair to the kids mother, the police report makes clear that the mother cooperated with TPTB.
The kid was also telling the 'truth'; she didn't have a mobile, it was her father's.
Still, no harm in having some boundaries for the youth to bang up against; strange it took the cops to do it though.
Of COURSE she should have called the cops. Anything else would have been career suicide.
Disclosure: I've taught, and I don't any more because it's too scary.
Today's teachers in the US walk a tightrope between maintaining control and getting their own backsides hauled off to jail.
ONE charge -- even if unsubstantiated -- of inappropriate conduct (having sex, mentioning sex, swearing, religion, anti-whatever-ism) is enough to get you suspended without pay... guess who's going to hire you with THAT on your record. So you wind up short-changing 90% of the class in order to avoid offending the most prudish, intolerant, narrow-minded, and loudest 10% of the parents.
The kids know this, and each class has a couple of walking turds who will happily use it to their advantage. Half the time, their parents are complicit. The other half of the time, the parents lead the charge.
As a result, many who SHOULD be teaching these days WON'T. The educational system is stripped of their dynamism, and they are replaced by the cautious, the careful, and the meek. Sure -- they'll keep the school board out of the courtroom, but they sure as hell won't inspire anybody.
Saccharine as it was, "Dead Poet's Society" hit it on the head: you can be a great employee or a great teacher. The former gets tenure; the latter gets fired.
Paris, because I wouldn't mind having her in my classroom.
>I for one am all in favour of the return of Capital Punishment, never did me any harm,
Crucification, best thing the Romans ever did for us - nail em up I say.
Or did you by chance mean corporal punishment?
You aren't allowed to shout at or touch a kid, so if a student refuses to leave the classroom calling the police is the only legal option. If you suspect they have a knife (and remember you aren't allowed to search them) then an armed response unit needs to be called.
My sprog get the same story my parents told me. You get in trouble at school, you're going to get it worse when you get home. That pretty much took care of things for all of us kids.
That being said; there have been a couple of times that trips were needed to school to straighten out some folks there on appropriate adult thinking. Thankfully my other half took care of that because i would have been going in there with a clue bat and things would have gotten really ugly; really fast.
Another example of how us adults are failing the kids. So a teacher is so scared of legal action/being accused of assault that they call the cops rather than dealing with it themselves.
Back in my youth, the teacher would have given you a clip around the ear, take the phone from you and if you were lucky get it back at the end of the week. Would I dare tell my parents? No way, i'd get an even bigger hiding from them!
Thats how it was, parents backed the teachers. Nowadays its all changed. Had the teacher have touched the pupil then no doubt some sleazy no-win-no-fee lawyer would be now suing for sexual assault.
Who wins? The lawyers. Who loses? The children
Hell yeah i look back fondly to the time i set the carpet on fire :)
but yeah i have to admit no matter what class they stuck me in the entire class went tits up !
but looking back on things i wasnt really that bad i spose
most of the time just sat in the back of class listening to my discman and reading a book.
Got in a fight with a teacher over that one so i guess it can be annoying its a little disrectfull
but looking back now im older and can bullshit better, she should of just put the phone down and stopped. But that would make me a hypocrite !
but nah she got what she deserved. You wanna fight authority you gotta expect to get hit back
"A solid tasering FIRST, *then* a damn good thrashing and incarceration in the local chokey, followed by a Reg Playmobil Reconstruction."
You want an image of a Playmobil reconstruction of a minor being imprisoned and beaten? I think you need to take yourself to the Jacqui Smith Sexcrime correction facility...
an education is forced onto people who refuse it. If the kids don't want to learn, admittedly most don't, and their parents don't care about it enough to make them try, discipline them etc, then let them sit out the lessons in a room somewhere with an xbox.
within a generation you'll have a massive separation between the unemployable wasters and the people who paid attention. all you then need to do is tie unemployment benefits to school attendance and you've got a nice solution to all those mindless jobs that no-one really wants to do.
Arun is defintely on the right track here. In American schools these days, teachers and administrators have been effectively neutered with regards to their options for handling unruly students. If verbal threats don't work their only real option is to call the cops.
If the teachers tried to physically force the girl to leave class or take the phone, they and the school district would most likely have been sued into oblivion by the little snot's parents because they dared lay a hand on their little angel.
Children are very adept at detecting ways to manipulate adults to get what they want. They're like wild animals, they can smell fear. With teachers, the fears are usually assault charges or sexual abuse charges. Kids know that the mere accusation is enough to effectively end a teacher's career. Sadly, authorities usually take the child's word as gospel even in the absence of any other evidence. Because we all know that children are pure. They are never vindictive, spiteful, vengeful, or willing to lie to get what they want.
Usually these children will have their parents wrapped around their little finger. The parents are so scared that their child might "hate" them, all the kid has to do is scream "You don't love me!! I hate you!!" and the parents roll over.
Before lecturing others about their prejudices & assumptions, why not think about some of your own..... "The incident was triggered by the girl lying to a Resource Officer and necessitating an involuntary body search."
Firstly let's speak plainly - a "Resource Officer" is an armed cop with powers of arrest. Secondly, let's ask why a search was necessary in response to disruptive behaviour. Surely if a kid is being disruptive you just send them home, why would you need a strip search?
What was the 'necessary' objective involved in this search, exactly? Was it perhaps necessary to teach a lesson to an uppity black kid who dared to mess with their AuthoriTAH... ?
I never once said the reg wasn't accurate in its story - it told the truth, i'm just questionning if it told the whole truth.
Why should I, as a reader, have to conduct further research to get the whole story - that's the job of the reporter writing the story, at least it is where I work (as a journalist).
As it goes, I read the smoking gun story and the police report before commenting - sadly a day job prevented my from reading every local newspaper report. (although the report you linked to actually backed up my point that there was more of an escalation than included by the Reg or SG)
But then in this case I'm the comment writer not the reporter - there is no onus on me to spend a morning researching.
I guess as journalism shifts towards 'the twitter angle?' then "OMG!1! cant blv grl arrested for txting http://tiny...." is always going to win out over an in depth account of what actually happened.
So don't libel me (a journalist, using my real name to comment) as someone who doesn't check his facts - I was commenting on the scant detail in the story and went on to include a flippant (you love that remember!) account of what obviously didn't happen in the classroom.
I am not criticising the Reg reporters - they are doing their job, and probably under massive time pressure on stories and I too love the flippant style of the Reg - but you can't take a flippant story as read, like some of the comments did.
2. I'm not some right wing nutter calling for the return of corporal punishment - I simply wanted to point out that it was extremely unlikely that the arrest was for sending a text message in class, rather than what took place as the situation escalated. Not to mention we have no history on this girls behaviour, previous calls to parents etc.
It should be:
"Meanwhile nobody learns nothing"
At least it were when I were at school
Well only in the US south where double negation is emphasis, rather than double negation.
You could say "Meanwhile everybody learns nothing" or "Meanwhile noone learns anything".
After all if nobody learns nothing, then everyone (being every body not covered by nobody) learns something (being not nothing). That's the only logical way to parse that. Of course applying logic to the south's use of english is probably why it has never made sense to me. It just doesn't work that way.