RE: Steen Hive and Steve Roper
RE: Steen Hive
"...Using Iran's despicable treatment of homosexuals to apparently attempt to justify plonking a fucking great murderous, ethnic cleansing state full of immigrants down on other peoples' land just exposes you as a juvenile shill...." And your statement just exposed your glaringly-weak grasp of history. Oh dear, I think I'm going to have to upset you further with some more "Zionist propaganda", please feel free to try and formulate a response based on historical facts rather than gibbering.
Firstly, there have been Jews living in the area of modern Israel for thousands of years, they were there before the division of the area Britian christened the Mandate of Palestine. So much for them all being immigrants. Many others were at the time in residence in Arab countries in the Middle East.
Jewish Zionist emigration back to the area started as early as the 1880s, but really picked up pace during the 1920s. These were not dumped there nor did they invade and expel Arabs, they were emigres seeking a better life. At that time, the area was mainly underdeveloped and not valued by the Arabs. Under the Turks the area was considered a backwater and nobody made any pretence to the Al Aqsa Mosque as being the place Mohammed supposedly soared up to heaven from, that only happened later. Strangely enough, the Syrians used to claim that honour for Damascus until they realised the political power of insisting it was Jerusalem.
The local Arabs described themselves in a British census as "Southern Syrians" and "Egyptians". The Zionist emigres bought land legally from both local Jews, Arabs and Christians, and brought modern farming and irrigation techniques from Europe, Russia and the US, making the largely untouched land bloom. Arabs, seeing a chance for work, also moved to the area from surrounding areas of the French Mandate of Syria and Lebanon and from Egypt, and the Jews welcomed them seeing as they needed additional labour. At this point there were no such people as "the Palestinians", and the influx of Arabs from neighbouring countries meant "foreign" Arabs out-numbered local Arabs by almost four-to-one by the 1948 divide. Interestingly, more Arabs moved into the area now known as Israel during this period than moved to the Transjordan area because they saw more opportunities in working for the Jews. One of the Arabs that came to Jerusalem in 1933 was Mohammed Abdel Rahman Abdel Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini, when his Egyptian father sent him there from Cairo. Mohammed's uncle was the Mufti of Jeruselam and later became a close associate of Adolf Hitler. Many years later, Mohammed took to calling himself Yassir Arafat, and "his people" "the Palestinians". This was all the funnier seeing as the Arabs couldn't actually pronounce "Palestine" seeing as it is not an Arabic word, so they used the term "Falastin" which is the Arabic term for the Philistine people that did once live in the Transjordan area, Egypt, most of Iraq and parts of Persia. But then Arafat was full of male bovine manure.
After the humiliation of the 1948 war (when the Arabs decided to try and eradicate the tiny state of Israel created by the UN), the Arabs took their revenge by driving out almost 800,000 Jews from their own countries. The failed attack on Israel was attempted ethnic cleansing, the ejecting of the Jews from neighbouring countries was also ethnic cleansing, yet neither got a mention from the UN. But I don't expect you to admit that it was ethnic cleansing. You may notice that there is still a sizeable Arab population living inside Israel with full rights as Israeli citizens, which kind of puts a major hole in your Israelis-as-ethnic-cleansers whimsy.
Israel found homes for these Jewish refugees from the Arab countries along with others coming from Europe and created a thriving state. The Arabs took the "Palestinian" refugees and herded them into refugee camps where they were kept in limbo deliberately, ironicly with the assistance of the UN. At this time, the Egyptians siezed the Gaza Strip and the "Jordanians" siezed the West Bank - strangely, no-one howled about "expansionist" Egypt or Jordan, even when Jordan annexed the West Bank in 1950.
Jordan itself is the other and larger part of the original British Mandate. To appease the Arab nationalists, Britian hacked off just over 75% of the Mandate and called it Transjordan. The idea was it would be the Arab state and only Arabs could own land in Transjordan, and Jews living in Transjordan had their lands stolen. To rule Jordan the British shipped in Abdullah I, of the Hashemite family, the losers in the battle to control Saudi Arabia. Still, no-one screamed about a Saudi ruling over "Palestinians". Mind you, the Arab nationalists did assassinate him in 1951 because he wasn't rabidly anti-Jewish enough for them, he having sought peace via deals with the Jewish Agency.
As your maths is no doubt as weak as your history, that meant that after the 1948 war the "Palestinians" and other Arabs controlled 85% of the original British Mandate area known as Palestine. Strangely enough, this wasn't enough for the Arabs, even to today, despite the surrounding twenty-two Arab countries comprising an area 640 times the size of Israel. All that oil money and space and they still can't home their "Palestinian" brothers they swear they want to help so badly. It seems the Iranians would rather spend the money developing nukes and missiles (which is bizarre considering any nuke attack on Israel will probably kill thousands of "Palestinians" as well as Israeli Arabs, and render the land unfit for the return of "refugees" for thousands of years).
So, let's recap - Israel was created by the UN, not by some invasion or expulsion of "Palestinians"; there were plenty of Jews in residence before the creation of the Israeli state; many of the "Palestinians" are descended from Syrians and Egyptians and were welcomed to the area by Jews; the Arabs kicked off the whole ethnic cleansing thing, and then cleansed their own countries of Jews; and there's still a large Arab population in Israel living as Israeli citizens with full rights. I suggest you try a little reading before you produce any more of the drivel you have vomited up with such little pre-thought.
RE: Steve Roper
"....Your conflation of the two is simply you spouting the same old Zionist propaganda that allows them to tar anyone who gainsays them with the "anti-semitic" brush....." Strange, but it was Richard Cartledge that tarred the whole state of Israel with the Zionist brush and you didn't object to that. Or do you seriously belive all Israeli Jews are Zionists and it's only Jews living outside of Israel that aren't?
But don't let that colour your judgement of Israel, which withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005 in the hope of peace, withdrew from Lebanon 2000 again in the hope of peace, and gave up the oil-rich Sinai in 1982 to Egypt in return for peace (which actually worked, but then the Egyptians seem a lot smarter than their "Palestinian" or Lebanese brothers). Because withdrawing and giving up land is just so Zionist, right? In fact, in the whole conflict, the only side that has consistantly declared a desire for peace has been Israel.