Israel hacks Arab TV station

Israeli military forces have reportedly hacked into a Hamas-run TV station to broadcast propaganda. The hijack of the Al-Aqsa television station last weekend represents the latest phase in a war in cyberspace that has accompanied the ongoing conflict in Gaza. Al-Aqsa is known for featuring allegedly antisemitic childrens' …

[Anonymous Coward]

Olmert should be tried for war crimes

When insurgents kill hundreds of Iraqi policemen with bombs, it's terrorism, murder and rightly so.

When Israel kills hundreds of Gaza policemen with bombs, it's the same. No different. It's targetting civilians and it's a war crime. We should make sure Olmert and his generals are prosecuted for war crimes at the Hague.

[TeeCee]

Re: war crimes.

Well fuck me! You are a genius and no mistake. Who'd have thought that solving all the problems in the Middle East could be so simple? All those years and the answer was right in front of us all the time!

PS: While you're on a roll, any suggestions on what a "dripping sarcasm" icon should look like?

[Anonymous Coward]

why not...

I used to have sympathy for Israel but the last ten years or so escalating oppression of Palestine makes me sick. US support, media and humantiarian-aid blockaded - you don't tend to see any of that in a just action.

Israel, you suck ass.

[Anonymous Coward]

Anonymity is the way to go, it seems

Well, Mr Coward (1), you show your utter lack of understanding of what a Hamas-style policeman is with that statement! they are about as civillian as Gerry Adams was in his (alleged) IRA days.

[Paul]

RE:Olmert should be tried for war crimes

I sugest you go and look at the excelent artical on the BBC looking at the legality of the situation. Basicly the Hamas attacks are clearly war crimes, but the attacks against them are a much more gray area. They are not 100% right, but the situation is far more complex that you seem to think.

[Liam]

@ ac

and the same for hamas too then i guess? remember hamass has been behind many murders too.

i just find that that part of the world really sums up religion. lots of pig-headed idiots fighting over which imaginary deity is the best.

of course there is more to it than that but you get the point. i do find it amusing tho all this shit about the arabs being so badly treated by everyone yet it was the arab nations that first invaded europe, took slaves and generally behaved very badly. interesting that they forget about all that eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear AC

When cities in Israel are being attacked for the last 8 years and the world doesn't say a single word, what do you call it?

There's time for peace, time for war. We will not tolerate this kind of attacks from the Hamas, no matter what the world thinks of us. Please check your facts: Where in the world do u see an army which calls the land lord to tell them to evacuate or he'll die prior attacking the building which hide bombs?

We tried *everything* - agreements with the Hamas (which they didn't honour), asking Egypt for assistance in stopping smuggling bombs, asking the UN and other countries. Nothing helped. It's time we take it to our on hands, whatever it will cost.

Try to imaging your neighborhood being bombed by extremists and no one stops them. Do you still feel the same? or you're just being a hypocrite?

As for killing "hundreds of Gaza Policemen", please check your facts: 19 of them died. Not hundreds.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Re: war crimes.

"Well fuck me! You are a genius and no mistake. Who'd have thought that solving all the problems in the Middle East could be so simple? All those years and the answer was right in front of us all the time!"

You haven't disputed a single claim to my basis for prosecuting Olmert for war crimes. But then nothing is really in dispute here, sooner or later he'll visit Europe and we should arrest him and put him on trial.

As to whether it would fix all the Middle Easts problems, that's not a requirement for prosecuting war crimes.

[Jolyon Ralph]

I guessed allowing comments to this story would be a mistake

Should have blocked comments for this one methinks.

In the meantime, a question.

Was this a real hack, or was it simply broadcasting a signal from another transmitter with greater power? (or possibly knocking out the original transmitter).

Jolyon

(never been a more appropriate time to use the watch out for helicopters symbol)

[Anonymous Coward]

Where were anonymous coward's comments ...?

...when Hamas rained around 6000 rockets onto the Israeli population (exclusively civilian) over the last few years?

Or don't Israeli citizens count?

There are faults on both sides, but I'm sure your mother told you what would happen if you play with fire. Even the Egyptian foreign minister warned Hamas to stop their missile attacks, some time back.

[Anonymous Coward]

@TeeCee

Your comment seems to be saying that criminals should be accountable only if punishment will reverse the damage of the crime (or solve some other pre-existing problem). That's a big statement, and will need more than a sarcasm icon to make it sound reasonable. If you meant that the action so far has been justified and proportionate (i.e. not criminal) then say so.

[Frank Bough]

TeeCee...

If you have to TELL US it's sarcasm, you've failed. Us ordinary Joes can do little about Israel other than boycott their fruit, veg and CPUs. I'm doing my bit and I'd encourage others to do likewise.

[Ian Ferguson]

Inappropriate

So instead of tuning in to the usual cartoon, Palestinian children were presented with politicians being shot?

Lovely. I'm sure that'll win hearts and minds.

[Mike]

Re: Re: war crimes.

It might be obvious to you, and many other people, but religion is always afforded more respect than it desrves, even more so when it's the excuse for killing people.

The AC has made more of a contribution than you TeeCee, what have you added? not very constructive are you?

[Sarah Bee]

Re: I guessed allowing comments to this story would be a mistake

Oh no. We're hoping that a solution to the situation in the Middle East may at last be reached through this thread.

Besides, if you lot fight it out amongst yourselves, the casualties and international fallout should be minimal.

[Anonymous Coward]

@AC 13:29

Here's a thought, if all the Hamas scumbags weren't hiding behind human shields then maybe the IDF wouldn't be hitting civilians? Mind you, be a short war then.

You should petition the Hague to retroactively declare Churchill a war criminal whilst you're in a litigious mood, I'm sure the unquiet ghosts of Dresden would thank you for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Please remember....

...that Israel was born from a terrorist group, much like Hamas or the IRA. Irgun, the organisation murdered many British solders in the King David hotel bombing for example.

This is not to condone Hamas and their rockets, but to remind that Israel is not from perfect stock themselves.

[Anonymous Coward]

@"where were the AC's Comments" posted by AC

"...when Hamas rained around 6000 rockets onto the Israeli population (exclusively civilian) over the last few years?

Or don't Israeli citizens count?"

Yes apparently 20 Israeli lives count the same as about 600 Palestinian lives. That's the number of Israelis killed by those rocket attacks vs the number of Palestinians killed in JUST the latest incursion. See the problem?

If not you're part of it.

Enjoy

[Alien8n]

Perspective

While I'm all for Israel protecting itself this should still be seen in perspective.

The Palestinians are not the ones blockading ports and borders, preventing food and medicine being distributed. The Palestinians are not the ones trying to claim land as theirs, kicking out the rightful owners and then building huge walls that prevent the rightful owners from working the farms that they've owned for generations. israel is an occupying force and as such must abide by the Geneva Convention.

And a final piece of perspective:

Imagine it's 1989. The news story reads.

"Britain is now in day 10 of it's offensive against the IRA in Belfast. After pounding Catholic areas of Belfast for the last week and a half with artillery, tank and missile strikes a massive ground force has now entered Belfast with the aim of crushing the IRA. Civilian casualties are running high with several hundred Catholics dead from the British bombardment. Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams is reported dead, killed by a missile strike that also destroyed the surrounding houses in the street he was hiding in. His entire family has also been killed in the same strike."

Do you think the USA would have allowed the UK to get away with that? Of course not. Do you think we'd have peace in Northern Ireland today if we'd reacted that way? Of course not.

The simple facts are this, Israel is not interested in peace, it just wants to keep the Palestinians living in fear. Until Israel seriously wants peace there can never be peace. These actions will simply keep generating more terrorists. Israel and Palestine will still be at war in 100 years time unless both sides sit down, agree what is needed for peaceful coexistence and actually do what is agreed instead of trying to back out of every agreement made as they have done so far.

The only other alternative is for one side to completely wipe out the other side, while the world watches genocide taking place.

[Anonymous Coward]

oh yeah

Fucking hell you bunch of muppets.

I would only hope that the UK government would show as much balls as Israel's if we found ourselves in a similar situation. I doubt it though.

[alan]

war crimes

Now what Israel is doing may or may not be proportionate, I dont think the mass bombing of Ireland would have stopped the IRA, but its certainly not war crimes.

They arent trying to kill the civillians, they are going after Hamas, who are firing missiles at their cities. Hamas have also said that muslims should try and target all jewish children, everywhere in the world, this is ethnic cleansing. Israel are not trying to kill all the arabs, only the ones firing missiles at them. These people are hiding in civilian centres, and hence going after them with force will produce civilian casualties this happens, its not nice, but shit happens.

[Philip Kroker]

Religion?

To the best of my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong) but the little war happening in Gaza at the moment has precious little to do with religion, it is a purely political war. After WWII the Jews were given a piece of historic Israel back and the Palestinians living there didn't like that. So the current conflict has been going on for the last 60 years with low blows by all sides.

Perhaps the situation could be resolved (read ceasfire NOT cessation of hatred) by replacing the police in Gaza with UN troops with the authority to kill. That should stop the rockets and therefor the Israeli blockade and any excuse for restrictive military checkpoints on the boarder.

If you want to inform yourselves about the situation a little more there is a wonderful documentary made by a Brit entitled "Death in Gaza". Watch it, it should make even the toughest guy cry.

(Alien because religion not at the center of conflict seems to be an alien concept)

[Anonymous Coward]

Bored now

I too am interested on how the hack was perpetrated.

Can we not kick every one out of the area. not let them back in until they learn to behave like grown ups? It makes feel sad that stupid nations like these hold back all of humanity. can we not expunge the lot of them from the gene pool? No wonder our alien over lords have not come down to offer us wonderful advanced technology like clean energy; the first question asked would be... "nice, now how do we turn this into a weapon?"

[Pierre]

Naughty Israel

You mean, in addition to running the worst apartheid regime of all times, in addition to the ongoing genocide, they are hacking TV channels? Now *that* is naughty.

[Dangermouse]

And whilst I'm at it...

My own personal view is that although yes, Israel has been on the receiving end of Hamas rockets, nobody seems to asking the reason why. Let's look at a fact the Americans and Israelis seem to ignore - Gaza City and the West Bank are the biggest concentration camps in the world. They have been blockaded for years and the Palestinian standard of living there is appalling, if not sub-human. Israel has been on a land grab for years. Not enough imports coming in, not enough exports going out. If Israel had let more supplies in so the quality of life improved for the Palestinians, then perhaps they would not had felt desperate enough to elect (note for the Yanks, ELECT), Hamas. You cannot disagree with the results of an election and call the winners Terrorists just because you don't like the result.

That, in my view, is the problem.

And Israel should be tried for war crimes - what they are doing now is barbaric. 500-plus dead Palestinians so far, with 2500 injured. Oh, and FIVE Israelis.

Animals.

[Chris Bradshaw]

Solution to M.E. problems.

Here you are Ms. Bee:

Make the Israeli foreign aid (all of it) dependent on immediately finding a solution with the Palestinians. Give a large (but reduced over time) bonus, based on speed of reaching a peace agreement. Give the Palestinians a huge amount of foreign aid too, and a similar time-based bonus.

BUT:

There is a problem (on both sides) that a minority want to provoke the other side into retaliation, at any cost, because of their political agendas. There has to be a disincentive to retaliate ...

So:

For every single Palestinian rocket falling on Israel, lower the Palestinian foreign aid by $100 million. Similar huge penalties for other terrorist attacks and peace-breaking events.

For every single Palestinian civilian killed by Israel, lower Israel's aid by $100 million. Similar huge penalties for leaving illegal settlements and other peace-breaking events.

The public pressure on both governments and terrorists to abolish the bombs/rockets and the retaliations (and generally to keep the peace) will be immense. Even if a rocket hits Israel or Israel drops a bomb, the victim won't want to retaliate.

Send the Nobel Peace Prize c/o el Reg, please :-) Ta...

P.S. Yes, of course I know that enforcement and judgement is a problem. Let a uninvolved and non-aligned country make the decisions - perhaps Iceland or Tonga??

[Steve]

A war on euphimisms.

I'm so tired of hearing people arguing about which side are the terrorists and which are protecting their people.

Israel has stated that one of their aims in the campaign is to "undermine popular support for Hamas" and I can't see how that is any different from Hamas saying, "We'll keep firing rockets until civilians change their ways," other than the fact that Israel is far more powerful and efficient.

I do think it's worth pointing out though that while Hamas may have "broken" the latest ceasefire, Israel never lifted the siege against the civilian population which was a condition of the ceasefire to begin with.

In terms of attacking civilians, they're both just as guilty, but at least Hamas is honest about it.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Jews were given a piece of historic Israel back"

Given back? More like took back and nobody dared challenge it because anyone that could was already feeling a little bit guilty for having screwed around in the area. Yet again the aftermath of British and American imperialism comes back to bite us on the ass.

All this talk of who is the terrorists out of Israel and Hamas is pretty irrelevant because history only remembers the point of view of the winner and Israel has more money, more arms and a nasty streak a mile wide so will no doubt do unto Hamas what Darth Vader wanted to do unto the Rebel Alliance.

Personally I think the UN should impose economic sanctions on Israel to even things up a little bit and then the world should just let them fight it out.

[Anonymous Coward]

Solved

Well easy to solve this one, get the leaders of both sides in a room, and brodcast it publically on TV / Radio in english /arabic - that if BOTH sides don't just STOP they'll find their beloved leaders dead, and it will keep going until they stop, the deputy leaders, supports their families..

Pointless violence maybe but at some point they are going to get it, and just learn to live with each other..

Oh and I have nothing against either Isreal or the people of Gaza, just the ****wits running it, going oh look my "stick" is bigger than yours..

Anonymous - well obvious reasons really!

[Simon]

IT?

You have 2 groups of arseholes fighting and killing each other to determine who has the best imaginary friend.

If anyone can work out which side owns the miserable scraps of land that they keep fighting over, then they are stupider than I am, or at the very least far more blinkered.

[Steve Swann]

@Philip Kroker

"..the Jews were given a piece of historic Israel back..."

Surely thats not historically Israel, but biblically? They claimed a 'divine right' to that territory, and the US/UK backed the claim, forcibly migrating the extant populace, against their will, into 'reservations'... (that sound familiar to the Native Americans?)

I'd say that places this squarely as a religious conflict, albeit with modern sectarianism as a close cohort.

[Mike]

@Philip Kroker

You said "the little war happening in Gaza at the moment has precious little to do with religion"

but then went on to say

You said "After WWII the Jews were given a piece of historic Israel back and the Palestinians living there didn't like that."

What about the Balfour Declaration and UN Resolution 181 (II) of 1947 which would indicate that (regardless of birthplace) a Jewish person has a "National Home" in Palestine, this is land ownership defined by religion.

If there were no differences of religion there would be no border, don't dress it up as a "political problem", as for northern ireland, it wasn't a british/irish political argument, hell, different streets couldn't mix if they worshiped the same god in slightly different ways.

[Psymon]

civillian casualties and war crimes

How short our memories are.

Let's just get this off-topic thread back to its grass roots issue so we can get back to the plot.

Yes, I'm afraid I have to reluctantly agree that churchill should have stood trial for war crimes.

Prior to the carpet bombings of Dresdon, the willfull neglegence of civilian lives during the state of war was considered unthinkable by the more civilised empires.

Unfortunately, England was backed into a corner, and the new technology of aerial combat allowed us to distance ourselves from the repercussions of our devastating military actions

Before planes, wars were fought on fields, army facing army and civilians were quickly evacuated (like they needed persuasion) from the area of conflict. Civil casualties by comparison to todays wars were miniscule

Then America took Dresdon as a new precedent and ran with it. Let us not forget Little Boy, after staging and provoking the Pearl Harbour attack (fact) and ignoring calls from Japan to enter negotiations (fact) they lied about the military status of the target (fact). We all know the rest.

War crimes? We all have bloody hands. It's time to stop pointing fingers and start negotiating.

As for religion? It's a dirty disease that causes nothing but death suffering and ignorance.

How many wars have been ended by religion?

OK, then. How many has it started?

[lglethal]

Now for some more completly uneducated responses (just like all those above)

Whether the size of the Israeli action is justified or not is debatable, but action WAS forthcoming. If Indonesia started firing missiles into northern Australia, or Mexico started firing into the states or the Irish started firing missiles into England (or the Scots, or the Welsh, or the French or the Cornish - lets face it everyone wants a go at England! :P), a response would be swift and timely and not protested excessively - that the Israelis held off for this long under constant missile attack is in my opinion (after knowing how passionate a people Israelis are) is quite remarkable.

Still one has to look at this in perspective with the West Bank, the people in the West Bank have probably more reason to complain bout Israel (with large settler communities and the West Bank barrier) then those of Gaza, who if we remember a few years back, the Israelis physically removed all of the Israeli settlements unilaterally from Gaza and gave it completely to the Palestinians. However, in the last year, there has been few if any incursions into the west bank, the various blockades and road blocks are slowly being dismantled, the economy and all up security of the West Bank is improving. And peace almost looks a possibility there!

So whats the difference? Well the obvious answer is Hamas, but i doubt its that simple - especially since many of those firing missiles from Gaza seem also to be from groups like the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade who are more aligned with Fatah then Hamas, so whats the difference? If someone can answer that question - maybe, just maybe a solution can be found...

Oh and whilst religion is used as a rallying call from both sides, this is really nothing to do with religion, its a territorial dispute just like the Falklands (for example). Its just another excuse to draw the simple-minded more deeply into conflict...

[shay mclachlan]

Anonymous cowards day?

Is this international anonymous cowards day or somesuch? The place is infested with them.

[Spider]

Predictable.

you must have seen these coming a mile off!

<islamic nutter voice>you are massacring our women and children!</inv>

<us backed israeli voice>you are firing rockets at us from their schools and homes!</usbiv>

<inv>because you have occupied our land!</inv>

<usbiv>we gave some of it [the shitty part we don't want] back!</usbiv>

<inv>you have blockaded us!</inv>

<usbiv>because you bring in missles (see previous reason)</usbiv>

<inv>because we must martyr ourselves in the name of allah to get our homeland back</inv>

<usbiv>it was our homeland first (yeah 2K years ago!)</usbiv>

<inv>you will not give us all we want and so must be killed!!</inv>

<usbiv>you will not give us all we want and so must be killed!!</usbiv>

and on, and on and on. can we take it as read that no-one is going to change their behaviour since it is backed by God? they're as bad as each other.

I'm with Marcus - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UY-ZrwFwLQg

[shay mclachlan]

@Now for some more completly uneducated responses (just like all those above)

The Cornish huh? No problem, blow all the bridges over the Tamar and ban the sale of pasties. Sorted.

[Peyton]

Imminent Mid-East peace solution aside...

I'm glad comments were allowed. I was a bit curious on perspectives on this across the pond. With Israel a longtime US ally, had to wonder if our media might be covering this with above average bias. But nope - seeing the same things here you would see in the US (blinkered perspectives, anachronistic views of religion, history reinterpreted to fit contemporary thinking - it's all there :)

Glad we are mutually agreed there cannot possibly be a middle ground.

[Anonymous Coward]

Turn the tables

by 90 degrees. The Gaza strip appears to be split vertically- so why not split it centrally, giving a shorter border to maintain and- hopefully- mixing things up for long enough that people stop fighting? Or find out if there's anything specific that Israel would like from the region- perhaps a few square miles- that it could take as "victor" and cease hostilities?

And to the "167 israelis hurt" ACs- if I shot 2000 rockets into a region my intention would very definately have to be to kill as many as possible. And given the quality of the targeting on those rockets, pretty indicriminately.

If I phone people up, bomard them with papers and stick stuff on TV saying to leave their homes unless they're militants and THEN bomb the hell out of the remaining few, that's far less of a war crime as it's no-where near as indiscriminate. You've told everyone to leave the area you're bombing. Anyone left is a pretty legitimate target.

And to the Ireland commentor, it never got that bad- and one cause of that was probably the Irish phoning up and saying they were going to blow up wherever it was they were attacking rather than just firing rockets into a shopping mall.

[Anonymous Coward]

"since the conflict began last month"

For your info, the conflict did not begin last month but in 1948 and cannot possibly stop unless this ridiculous religion-based "state" is dissolved and turned into a real country (like Palestine as it was before the idiotic UK/US intervention) where all citizens would have equal rights. The IIIrd Reich exterminated gypsies and gays, but to my knowledge no-one gave them their own countries for them to exterminate the natives. Of course, the US needed only one outpost in the middle east at the time, so no need to "create" more states. But now, with the need for cheap oil, maybe we should create a gay state where Iraq used to be?

Anon to avoid the zionist flames.

[Brian]

Time running out

Well, at least it looks like time may be running out for the Israeli offensive.

I can't see how the US can continue to block calls for a UN Security Council resolution mandating a ceasefire after the latest atrocity - targeting a UN run school full of people fleeing the fighting and murdering 40 of them.

Maybe now we can start to talk about international sanctions against Israel, and force them to come to terms with the fact that they have to answer for their crimes before they can expect peace.

If I had a time machine, I'd assasinate Balfour - that was the worst foreign policy decision this country ever made.

Mine's the one with the magic solution in the pocket - not.

[Steen Hive]

Bah

Why is everyone bellyaching about Palestinians firing rockets onto their own land? Any "Israeli" that gets in the way would've been safer staying in Florida/Russia/[Insert your place] here instead of evicting people off their land and complaining they get pissed off about it.

Ethnic cleansing is just that even if Jewish people do it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Leave Gazza alone..

Beats me WTF Gazza has done to upset the Israelis, I mean, sure he had problems with alcohol, he allegedly had that breakdown, he was a shit manager (aren't all ex players?) and he gave his ex wife hell but shelling him and sending a couple of armoured divisions after him seems a bit extreme to me.

BTW, quick correction, I think you'll find he played for Newcastle United, Tottenham Hotspur, Middlesbrough, Everton, Lazio and Rangers but never West Ham (colloquially known as The Hamas) so unless Kettering Town has a large and influential Jewish following I think it's all been a bit of an unfortunate mistake.

Paris, I'm sure she's got a good grasp of important political issues as well.

[John Watts]

Those Hamas missiles

Aren't they the home-made tubes that don't really do much other than make a statement?

Of course, when I say don't do much that doesn't mean I'd want one going off next to me, or anywhere near me, just that a single Israeli tank probably contains more explosives than all 9,000 missiles that have been fired.

I know it's a good way to settle your conscience telling yourself that you're performing a just and proportionate response but most of those missiles land in fields and olive groves (that were farmed by Palestinians for thousands of years before they were taken).

As a last point, and someone please set me straight, Judaism>Christianity>Islam (in age terms). The Christians and Muslims must have come from somewhere right? Would they have been Jews before changing their subscription? Meaning that those with an ancestral right were already there?

I mean, I'm no expert but I'd say a Semitic Palestinian has more claim to be there than a Russian.

[fnordianslip]

Cyberwar, my rrrrs!

So, to get back to the topic, why exactly is this act of old school electronic/psychological warfare being billed as an attack in cyberspace? Since when has the rf spectrum been part of cyberspace? I don't see the connection. TFA has been sexed up!

[Boris the Cockroach]

What its really about

This is'nt about wheteher the Israeli government is right or wrong, or how the oppressed palestians fight back or which sky fairy gave which side exclusive use of which bit of land.

Its about power. thats it.

On one side we have the Israelies , who have elections due in March, so the government is going for the 'look we protected the people' card and grab power that way.

While on the other side in Gaza we have Hamas, who are never going to stop firing missiles in Israel because without Israel's oppression of any sort, the people of Gaza will turn to hamas and say 'Hey f***wits... what actually have you done for us?' and kick them out of power

[Alien8n]

@ the ones who say "good on Israel"

Okay, you're on an IT site, that should suggest you're intelligent people (even though some comments seem to suggest otherwise)

Does anyone want to hazard a guess why bombing a civilian population to get at a handful of terrorists is a BAD IDEA? Sure your bomb has just killed a dozen terrorists, but how many have you now created?

Imagine this scenario:

You're a 15 year kid who dreams of peace. You're in your home when an Israeli tank fires on the building next to yours trying to kill the terrorists that have run in their to fire at the tanks. In the resulting explosion your home collapses, killing your parents and younger sister.

What would you do? Say "Oh well, I'll forgive them as they were only trying to protect themselves from the evil terrorists"? Or go out, find a gun and start shooting back?

While both sides refuse to abide by the agreements made (as stated, Hamas may have broken the ceasefire, but Israel were the ones refusing to abide by the conditions of the ceasefire in the first place) then nothing will change short of one side committing genocide.

And don't think the Israelis are above lying to get sympathy, don't forget it was the Israeli secret service who tried to bomb a US warship a few decades ago in order to create sympathy. Their mistake was getting caught

[Anonymous Coward]

What will bombing achieve?

OK so Hamas will (potentially) be neutralised by this, and their rocket attacks will quieten down. But how many future generations of radicalised youth, with little or no prospects will have been created by Israel's economic blockade, and the current military action? How many more potential suicide bombers have been created?

The bombing (from both sides) is wrong and won't achieve anything. Try opening up Gaza's borders so that they can develop industry, and trade, so that they can actually build their economy - giving people opportunities to succeed in life, rather than years of life struggling to eke out a decent standard of living, and you're not going to have nearly as many radicalised people.

Take away the radicalised, pissed off people, and you starve Hamas of the oxygen that they need to justify their existence.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Psymon

"Prior to the carpet bombings of Dresdon (sic), the willfull neglegence (sic)of civilian lives during the state of war was considered unthinkable by the more civilised empires.

Unfortunately, England was backed into a corner,........"

N.Ireland, Scotland and Wales not involved, obviously.....

[Anonymous Coward]

I would hope

That if the tables were turned, that if it was Palestinians that blockaded, bombed and murdered hundreds of Israelis (I think the total just this time has been greater than 600). That Palestinians were the ones with influence in the US that stopped Israel receiving UN protection.

That is Palestinians claimed victim status when clearly they are nothing of the sort. That if Palestinians were the ones invading Israel and shelling schools. That if there best justification for this slaughter of Israelis was a startled old woman complaining about the hole in her garden wall from a rocket.

I would hope we would step in and protect Israelis from those war mongering Palestinians and their bombs and tanks.

But the tables aren't turned, and it's Israel having one last killing spree while they effectively control the US Presidency, not the Palestinians. The best we can aim for is to get Olmert up on trial at the Hague for war crimes.

As to whether Olmert has support that can prevent this, he does not. He didn't for the invasion of Lebanon, he is a minority leader in a coalition and his control of the US stems from the misbelief that Jewish American voters will block vote the way the hardliners in Israel tell them too.

I think this is false. Olmert does not have support and once out of power will not have power or influence and will be prosecutable.

[Sajjad Syed]

How pathetic.

I find Israel supporters completely laughable. Is this a joke? No god would give anyone a "promised land" that was STOLEN OUTRIGHT from the people who have been there from time immemorial. No god would give people a land so they could carry out these atrocities unchecked. No god would teach people to make a nice country for yourself at the expense of everyone around you. No god would teach that some people's lives are worth more than others.

These gutless, inhumane oppressors always claim impunity because they are the "historically oppressed", but look at them now. Look at the quality of life in Palestine that the Israeli government is directly responsible for. They subjugate, kill, oppress and perpetuate the theft of land from Palestinians, while they then brainwash the world into sympathising with them by controlling the media. HELLO? WHERE ARE YOUR PRINCIPLES AND YOUR CONSCIENCE??? THIS IS GENOCIDE. There's no other definition for what is going on. For the Israeli government, Palestinians have less value than animals.

If you grew up in Palestine and you only knew death, destruction, violence, racism, oppression, hunger and poverty day in and day out, tell me what options you feel you would have outside of joining a militia. Diplomacy? Oh yeah, that's gotten us real far. It's easy for you to sit in your warm, comfortable armchair thousands of kilometers away and expound about "terrorism" and the "plight" of the Israelis. The UN is a toothless organisation, and its failure to rein in Israel's illegal atrocities and America's financial and material support for the killing of innocents highlights its irrelevance and irresponsibility.

[Anonymous Coward]

"since the conflict began last month"

4th Nov Barack Obama wins election.

5th Nov "Hamas fires rockets after Israel kills six in Gaza."

The truce was broken by the Israelis while no one was looking.

[Anonymous Coward]

Israel with a schmael

It is a war crime. Israel is illegally occupying huge swathes of Land which has been stolen by force from the indigenous people since 1946. If Zionists came and stole my City killed any resistance and bulldozed my house, I would throw rocks and anything else I could get my hands on at them. Remember too, that these Ashkenazi Eastern European (converted) jews' ancestors never set foot in the holy land and are almost as cruel to Sephardic/Semetic Jews who live/lived there as tehy are to the Palestinians.

[Alien8n]

@ AC Turning the Tables

Actually you're talking out of your backside there. The IRA did warn quite a lot, yes, but not as often as you would think. Victoria Station in the 90's. Hyde Park. Warrington. Arndale Centre in Manchester. No warnings were given when the IRA killed people those times. I remember those days very well, by luck I wasn't blown up in at least one of those bombs as I was there 1 week earlier.

I can't even be bothered to write the rest, it's clear there's very little in the way of intelligent conversation here. Intelligence is being able to view both sides of the argument, not holding a totally blinkered view from just one side. And that's aimed at both the pro-Palestinians as well as the pro-Israelis. Only by seeing how both sides view this can you find a compromise.

[Robert Heffernan]

Nuke Em!

Israel and Palestine are just a couple of thugs fighting over a stupid ball. Nuke the pair of em and let the survivors argue the smoking, glowing remains.

[Rogan Paneer]

Not so effective as they might hope

Of course most of this hacking will be ineffective because there's precious little electricity to operate a tv in Gaza, so very few of the intended audience will be able to watch it (necessary IT content). Israel's been restricting supplies of petroleum (and everything else) into Gaza for years, and now they seem to be systematically smashing Gaza's civil infrastructure, so electricity will be in short supply for years to come.

I used to support Israel's actions, but now I'm nauseated by them. It's ethnic cleansing. There seems to be some unstated paradigm that because of the Holocaust, israel has a right to inflict some of its features on anyone else they choose.

[Joe Cooper]

@Psymon

"staging and provoking the Pearl Harbour attack (fact)"

You realize that staging and provoking the attack are mutually exclusive?

How exactly did we provoke it? But not playing ball with Japan's slaughter of Chinese people? Hell, we should've attacked first.

[Private Citizen]

IT? Why are other media sites blocking comments on this thread

I was surprised that this thread is open for comment. All the media sites I have accessed are not allowing comments - this could be the real IT issue - the blocking of comments globally regarding the Isreali incursion. Conspiracy anyone?

While I believe Hamas are assholes for launching rockets from residential areas - I assume that there is little other space to launch rockets. So they are twits for the retaliation they have brought down on their surrounding refugee population.

Yet Israel the nation that wishes that we never forget the atrocities that countries can inflict, want us to turn away when they fire high explosives into occupied residential buildings to kill one human.

If you turn refugee camps into death camps then you have become the monster. death by oven or death by high explosive is still death.

- Protective eye wear for the atomic flash that will finally end this senseless bickering.

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost 600 dead now...

... and one third of them are children.

Israels war with Hamas is a lie.

Israels war against the defenceless Palestinian people is the reality.

Absolutely sickening.

[Olaf]

Religion, Hamas & Gaza

Do these videos promise hope for peace?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av3-OnlUedw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h42-2tLQ5f0

More:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3ZXXtzbmVk (1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwod6Iczj8U (2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdSes188Ovw (3)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIs4rt6k58A (4)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nNr5bWYjhA (5)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqHCmhIgu0c (6)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfsbbBftL88 (arabic)

[Alan Fisher]

If ever

you needed proof of a NeoCon Conspiracy or NWO "taking over the world" theory, this is it.....the US supports Israel no matter what they do...why?

Book of Revelations provides an interesting insight; it talks about God being angered by the excesses of the Israelites; their neighbours massing to drive them from the land and being pushed to the sea. Only the White Dragon and Yellow Eagle (ideas anyone?) will side with them and in the end all the races of Man will be embroiled....

is this in the process of happening or are some people making sure it does?

It also mentions the war in Iraq (something about the "Cradle of Man" - city of Ur in modern-day Iraq - and Babylon - also in Iraq) as the precursor to this amageddon-type scenario...

or Obama would end the war in Iraq and thus the war against the Arab, the Christian-Republican Crusade, Bush's lot are making that as difficult as possible, if not impossible for him to do

[Anonymous Coward]

@Psymon

My dad invented Japanese (fact).

I am the true king of France (fact).

You owe me £10,000 (fact).

You can just write "fact" in brackets after an assertion without providing any actual evidence and it automatically becomes true (fact).

[Anonymous Coward]

one day...

I would say these criminals are just getting a bit of mass murder in to test Obama's reaction...

Hopefully due to a shortage of cash US will stop funding these degenerates in the future.

Naturally UK as Renfield to USA dracula is just waiting to be told what to do...

[Anonymous Coward]

As usual....

Just love how both sides react.

The pro-Palestinians forget how Hams trains kids to hate Israel, the US, the UK, etc. There are videos floating around showing kids in the latest terrorist gear being training to shoot, stab, etc. You also see the coward leadership of the Hamas in hiding while telling civilians to fight. Or how Hamas fires rockets from houses, mosques and universities while civilians are at the same location. Israel has dropped leaflets warning of their reactions but Hamas saying to ignore them.

On the other side you have Israeli's fighter power but who can't handle urban warfare. They "over-react" but they have to when they are surrounded by 15+ million Arabs.

Known facts:

* Egypt has closed the borders with Gaza - still technically open between Gaza and Egypt.

* Aside from a bit of rheteric in the media, no Arab country has done anything - wonder why.

* Israel has previous said that with no rockets firing into Israel, this wouldn't have happened.

* Notice how quite it is in the West Bank?

[Anonymous Coward]

a shred of balance please?

article says, "Israeli military forces have reportedly hacked into a Hamas-run TV station to broadcast propaganda."

Al-Aqsa does not broadcast propaganda?

Article says, "Al-Aqsa is known for featuring allegedly antisemitic childrens' cartoons"

Ummm... DUHHHH!!! Allegedly?

Sorry folks... both Hamas and Israel were both broadcasting "propaganda" over Al-Aqsa!

[Anonymous Coward]

Several Observations

<coward> WTF Gazza has done to upset the Israelis

Nothing - Gaza is a strip of land.

Terrorists within that strip of land launched missiles for months at a sovereign nation that they refuse to recognize.

<john watts> Aren't they the home-made tubes that don't really do much

Some are, others have been illegally imported from Iran and manufactured in China.

Some of the latest missiles now have a civilian nuclear power station in range, which is a critical situation.

<alien8n> Does anyone want to hazard a guess why bombing a civilian population to get at a handful of terrorists is a BAD IDEA?

That is a good question - why does Hamas continue to launch missiles for months into civilian population in Israel?

It costs too much to bomb a civilian population, which is why leadership in Gaza has been targeted who have: authorized the breaking of ceasefires, authorized importing of illegal weapons, authorized launching of missiles at civilian populations, authorized suicide bombing, authorized propaganda to encourage civilians not under legal military command (i.e. illegal combatants or terrorists) to kill foreign civilians, etc.

<Sajjed Sayed> a "promised land" that was STOLEN OUTRIGHT from the people who have been there from time immemorial

There is an assumption that the land was owned by someone to be stolen. To say it was stolen from some other people before is the same argument that ethnic Jewish people use. It is unfortunately sad to see the same rhetoric from both sides but both sides unable to see they are committing the same mistake academically.

<coward> Israel is illegally occupying huge swathes of Land which has been stolen by force from the indigenous people since 1946

Borders were carved out by he United Nations, making it legal.

Surrounding nations and Israel engaged in various wars, land was lost... whenever nations engage in warfare, this is a risk.

This land was occupied by the Romans and Byzantines for a couple thousand years, they don't own it any more, and this was due to war.

If a group of people do not have a viable form of government who can provide security to their group of people as well as to surrounding nations, there is no way they can administer a plot of land.

Considering an American President had advocated a plan to provide a group of people statehood through a constitution & popular elections and elections caused people to believe that elected people could violate constitutional order of government by having elected officials fund an illegal parallel army to the constitutional force - it unfortunately demonstrated that the American President may have been wrong and that this group of people were ready for statehood.

Until the regional people can act as a nation and not kill people in their area they don't like and kill people in other nations that they don't like - they will forever be nothing more than a subjugated people.

People want to be a political nation, they have to recognize the other recognized political nations surrounding them.

People to administer a piece of land as a political nation, don't engage in wars where opposing nations have an opportunity to take the land.

<private citizen> While I believe Hamas are assholes for launching rockets from residential areas - I assume that there is little other space to launch rockets

The closer you get to the border of Israel, the deeper into Israel they can reach.

Take a look at google - there are plenty of non-residential areas to launch rockets from.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=gaza&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=38.690438,56.601563&ie=UTF8&ll=31.705971,35.104065&spn=0.650757,0.884399&z=10

The strategy to launch rockets is part of a plan for genocide by Hamas in the borders.

Launch rockets from areas where Hamas wants to kill people in Gaza and blame foreigners for killing the politically or religiously unpopular people in Gaza.

It is the "kill 2 birds with 1 stone" strategy.

<alan fisher> the US supports Israel no matter what they do...why?

Just because a group of popular people are elected to a government does not mean the government does not follow the law.

Because Israel followed a reasonable legal process and a Palestinian constitutionally illegal army is illegally occupying Gaza.

The only Palestinian organization that can be supported is the current recognized government in the West Bank, since Gaza was overthrown by an illegally funded militia, and the U.S. is supporting that government.

If there was no civil war within the ranks of the non-Israeli's in the region, if the non-Israeli's in the region would recognize the statehood of Israel, and there was a regular chain of command for military & police forces - then they could form a government which could be internationally recognized and negotiated with.

Right now, Hamas in Gaza is not run under a recognized governing authority, making them Unlawful Combatants under International Treaties.

Hamas has to "get with the international program" and stop being Unlawful Combatants or "Terrorists".

Hamas had popular support, Hamas just needed to follow the law - but they were incapable of doing that. Had Hamas been able to follow the law, then they could gather more international support.

[neil hanvey]

we all need a common enemy

like aliens or something, that would unite the world, although they only ever land in the usa (funny that isn't it)

[ian]

The smaller the prize....

... the greater the struggle. The solution is to let Israel and the Palestinians fight over something worth the candle, because the Gaza isn't worth all of this effort.