Academic avoids extradition over Holocaust denial

An Australian academic accused of holocaust denial has escaped extradition from the UK to Germany. Dr Gerald Toben, 64, was accused of publishing anti-Semitic content on his website. But a judge threw an extradition request out of court after deciding it was invalid because it lacked any details of the website where the …

[caffeine addict]

someone explain to me...

So, an Australian puts information on the Internet that is legal in his country and the country it's hosted in. He flies from Dubai to the US, and he is picked up at Heathrow.

Not a German national. Not living in Germany. Not visiting Germany. Site not hosted in Germany.

Can someone explain how Germany is claiming rights to him?

It's as logical as the Canadians trying to arrest him for not writing his site in French...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have every sympathy with the chap.

Essentially, he is being subject to legal action because of the political and historical beliefs which he holds.

Whats that thing called again, where people are made criminals for their thoughts?

Hang on till I check my newspeak dictionary.

[Anonymous Coward]

erm...

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of this guy, why would we extradite him for a crime which is only a crime in German and which he allegedly committed outside of Germany? Drinking booze is illegal in some countries so are we to see Brits extradited to Saudi in future?

I must be missing something... please enlighten me.

[DavCrav]

Germany =/= world

The last time Germany considered itself in charge of everything going on in the world look what happened. There's something about new bosses and old bosses...

[Anonymous Coward]

Being an academic is dangerous in the UK

So he's got to stump up £100,000 bond just because someone said he did something which they can't show he did but never mind. While others already convicted of violent offences and burglary get let out time and again even if they're on parole and have violated the terms of their parole. The one thing he can be thankful of is that it was a european extradition request , if it had been from the USA he would have been over there before his feet could have touched the ground.

My wife often says that the dregs of mankind get all the benefits and for once I have to agree with that sentiment.

The British legal system is royally up the creek without a paddle.

[EdwardP]

I...

I may not agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Another case of a country trying to use its law outside its own boarders.

And regardless if you do or do not believe in what this guy is saying.

surely he has the right to express his own views - I never thought the Germans would be guilty of passing such a moronic law.

*\. Getting the 'tard diconary out of my pocket and adding

"Lawtard - A law which was passed regardless of how retarded and dangerous it is to a free and supposely open minded society"

[Inachu]

jewish holocaust

Did it happen? Yes

But I think both sides of the argument are wrong.

Death of humans no matter who they are is wrong and exemplifying one race over another saying their persecution matters more than other deaths is equally as wrong.

It does not matter if this holocaust was 5 years ago or 50 or 500 years ago. If history has marked it and proven the truth of the deaths then for the record IT IS WRONG period.

To keep it up as history is a good thing and dictators who do it again should be sent to the jewish holocaust meuseum for some schooling then off to jail with no chance of parole.

Now what about those 30 million christians killed by jews in Russia? History is so ever silent on that.

[Bassey]

I may not agree with what he says....

...but I will defend his right to say it.

This whole Holocaust denial thing is very scary. I understand it's a sensitive subject but the way to deal with these nutters is not to censor them but to let them makes tits of themselves by allowing them to spout their shite.

We have churches trying to stop people being taught evolution and evolutionists then trying to prevent kids being taught about God.

The BBC pulls articles suggesting Climate Change may be a load of hot air (do you see what I did there?) because the "facts" may confuse the public into believing something other than that which the BBC believes.

Maybe we should just all be given the encylopedia britannica on our 4th birthdays rather than going to school. Once we've learnt everthing in there we can be ragarded as posessing the sum of all human knowledge. That way we can scrap schools, universities, libraries, science, religion and all concentrate on making money to pay for CCTV cameras and systems to catch and incarcerate any heretical "thinkers" that may slip through the system.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand

Did he write something anti-semitic or did he write a holocaust denial? They are not necessarily one and the same (although both pretty stupid). He's a Dr. of what? and who holds his degree and why hasn't it been withdrawn? The old dolt apparently has passed his prime and gone to senility.

[Brian]

Just goes to show

This once again highlights the farcical state of the UK's extradition legislation.

Just because our German friends have a law against skepticism (I've looked at his site - it's at http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/ , and can't see anything objectionable there), why should we arrest someone who didn't commit a crime in Germany, then waste taxpayer's money on lengthy court procedures to satisfy the German's misplaced sense of guilt?

Sorry, but until he goes voluntarily to Germany and the Germans deal with him, I can't see that it's any of our business.

[Anonymous Coward]

@inachu

>jewish holocaust : Did it happen? Yes

Err, what about the romany holocaust and various others.

It was simply the holocaust.

Just because one group likes to claim exclusive whingeing rights to justify their current actions doesn't mean we should overlook the other groups that were persecuted and in proportion to their numbers more so than the Jews.

[Anonymous Coward]

jew stories bring out the worst comments

Why do stories abouts jews/israel/holocuast bring out the worst in comments from the people here?

"Now what about those 30 million christians killed by jews in Russia? History is so ever silent on that."

Care to substantiate on that?

"Just because one group likes to claim exclusive whingeing rights to justify their current actions "

jews != israel

I'm ashamed to share the same profession as some of the people who leave these grubby comments

[Anonymous Coward]

Bail?!

I can fully understand the Germans being after him if he landed in Germany, but as others have said: what makes them think they have the right to extradite hime from the UK?

More to the point however is why did the British authorities not tell the Germans to get lost as soon as they received the request rather than arresting the bloke? And why, if the case has been chucked out does he have to raise bail? Or am I misreading the bit about bail?

[Ferry Boat]

Plonche

Doesn't anyone else think it's amazing that this came to court without evidence? Whoever brought the case to court needs a good talking to.

Holocaust denier or anti-Semite, the guy is an idiot. Both are stupid positions to hold.

[Anonymous Coward]

Pffrrrttt

Ze Charmans are all nazis still, they just don't want us to know about it.

Fair play to them they're just trying to cover up this wistle blower before the glorious rising of the 5th reich...

[Harry Stottle]

Thought Crime

I find this kind of prosecution deeply disturbing.

MUCH More disturbing than the distorted views the victim is apparently guilty of holding. Do I care that people still deny the Nazi guilt for the holocaust? Of course (my own family lost over 60 members to the Nazis) but these baseless beliefs do no more harm (on their own) than, for example, the conviction held by Creationists that the Theory of Evolution is a conspiracy to destroy religion. Are we going to start locking them up too? If so it's a shame we didn't make that decision before the Americans elected one...

[Avi]

@ChrisW

It *was* the Jewish holocaust he was denying, though.

As in, the process by which a fuckton of Jews were exterminated by the Nazis.

FWIW, from where I'm standing, it's not one group claiming exclusive whingeing rights. It's hardly a pervasive idea amongst Jews that it was only Jews killed by the Nazis, though most notes on the use of the word 'Holocaust' point out that, in common usage, it only refers to the Jewish deaths.

[Master Baker]

@jew stories bring out the worst comments

I don't think they do.

What is highlighted by this event is that freedom to think and speak/write is being oppressed by people/Nations with no real right to do so.

People are entitled to opinions. That's what freedom is. If the Germans, or anyone else doesn't like it then fuck them. They don't own free will.

People get labelled as racist etc just for airing thoughts. If the chap wants to debate the holocaust then so beit. If I want to debate the negative impact that muslim migration to the UK is having then why can't I??

Because we're forced by 'authorities' and dickheads to tip-toe around these issues. There's no open, honest debate anymore, Political Correctness has seen to that.

[Stef]

@jew stories bring out the worst comments

"Now what about those 30 million christians killed by jews in Russia? History is so ever silent on that."

Care to substantiate on that?"

AC, I assume that he is talking about the enforced famine (the Holodomor) of 1932-1933 in which 10% of the population of Ukraine starved to death, - approx 5 million) as for 'killed by the Jews' I would think he is referring to the fact that most of the leaders of Communisim and Bolshevism were Jewish - Stalin was not however.

Thirty Million is a large number, I have revised it down, and we can have a discussion regarding this without fear of arrest. Were this topic otherwise this would not be the case.

I don't think ANY sane person can dispute the deaths of millions at the hands of the Nazis however we should be allowed to discuss and - if something is found out to be incorrect - change without fear of prison. It won't happen though will it?

Does the fact that I have just mentioned this make me a traitor to my heritage and a self hater?

AC because it is this horrible flame topic

[Anonymous Coward]

@AC

jews != israel

This is true but where is the Simon Wiesenthal Center and what are it's aims?

Read their mission statement and see if it is inclusive with regards to holocaust victims.

[Luther Blissett]

Not Alice in Blunderland - yet

If Pinochet could be apprehended at the behest of a.n. other country (south of France, north of Morocco) and released, it would hardly be proportionate to ship out Toben on the basis of what he might have said or written, rather than what he did to thousands of people. Meanwhile, mainstream Isaeli press has it that Shimon Peres is to receive an honorary knighhood. Anyone care to applaud?

[Inachu]

replying

@ Chris W

Then all Holocaust meuseums should be renamed "World Holocaust Meuseum"

Under the title should read, " To the shame of mankind. We walk in ignorance."

[Anonymous Coward]

Very wrong

This is another example of the European arrest warrant being misused.

The problem is that the internet means that a country can accuse someone in another country of breaking their laws because their citizens are able to access it. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, the provisions of the European arrest warrant don't seem to deny extradition in cases where a crime isn't physically committed (either by hosting it there or by residing there at the time). There is also no legal way for a member state to refuse an extradition request from another member state: http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/criminal/extradition/fsj_criminal_extradition_en.htm

Of course, I heard somewhere that this German law could be challenged under human rights legislation.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Inachu

"To keep it up as history is a good thing and dictators who do it again should be sent to the jewish holocaust meuseum for some schooling then off to jail with no chance of parole."

This, I think, is a more dangerous road than most realize. History is prone to failure, medling and falsification. Our knowledge of the past must always be re-validated and we should never assume a history book to hold all the truth.

It makes me rest easy at night to know someone has the guts dig in tabus (like the holocaust has become) and challenge the stablished thinking about the event.

Did it happen? I think we have enough proof about that.

To the proportion that is claimed, meaning, as much people died as it is said? To that, we can only answer: "maybe". It is not that diferent to trying to estimate how many greeks and how many persians fought in the battle of the Thermopylae . As I recall, those numbers were adjusted time and again and no one can tell for certain.

It is the work of scholars to challenge the stablished paradigms, so let them dig as much as necessary. Who knows what might happen. It is one of the fundamental principles of the scientific method and, last I checked, history is a science. Throwing this guy in jail and leting him rot is absolutelly no diferent than trying to burn Galileo at the stake. For shame.

And don´t tell me about anti-semitism. Apparently not even the prosecution was able to point out were the made racist remarks. They are crying bloody murder because he challenges the stablished version of the events

@AC 15:00 "a Dr. of what? and who holds his degree and why hasn't it been withdrawn? The old dolt apparently has passed his prime and gone to senility."

Specialize in the subject as much as he did and publish a study debunking his thesis. It is as simple as that. Or are you waiting the thought police to take action?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I may not agree with what he says....

"I understand it's a sensitive subject but the way to deal with these nutters is not to censor them but to let them makes tits of themselves by allowing them to spout their shite."

The problem with this strategy is that it's very "convenient" for a bunch of bigots and racists to buy into what these people are saying, invent their own little parallel universe with its own little revisionist history, and then use this new-found folklore to attack innocent people, effectively propagating the hideous and disgraceful persecution of anyone who just happened to be Jewish over the past two thousand years. History shows that people who are looking for someone to blame for something usually don't bother to question the factual basis of this kind of material if it is digestable enough and gives them an excuse to behave in a way that would typically be regarded as socially unacceptable or even criminal.

"The BBC pulls articles suggesting Climate Change may be a load of hot air"

It's disingenuous to claim that this and various opinions on other matters should be given prime public consideration on the grounds of "free speech" being protected (as is the usual American complaint) or to encourage "free thinking". Should the BBC be forced to publish candid stories about the Apollo moon landings being faked alongside dishonest "crop the graph somewhat and move some of the points around" conspiracy theory articles about global warming? Although this may surprise anyone running a tabloid newspaper, when communicating to a large audience as an "opinion-maker", there is an additional responsibility to ensure that published material is accurate and has a factual basis - just saying that "this climate change thing is a scam, man!" shouldn't be sufficient to get coverage that would be in any way comparable to a properly researched piece on the topic. (The notion that a single "load of hot air" article would turn the scientific consensus on global warming on its head is reminiscent of the "one brick out, all fall down" simpleton's view of science espoused by various "theotards" a few weeks ago in comments on various articles, although the sad thing is that many readers would probably have the same level of sophistication in their own interpretation of such an article and what it seeks to communicate.)

What irritates me is the amount of time, money and resources wasted on either entertaining the fairy-tales of idiots who seek to pollute public life with the details of their ill-considered, intellectually devoid fantasies, or on having to debunk their idiocy on a regular basis. And when such idiocy has an impact on the welfare of other human beings, it certainly isn't inappropriate to draw a line and to take sanctions against anyone who seeks to cross that line.

[Dave Bell]

Plenty of stupid to go round.

Whatever the other merits of the case, the Germans should have been able to back up their allegations with a URL.

Think of it like this: somebody has a book published. Shouldn't they have to tell a court the name of the book?

[kain preacher]

I'm suprised

That they didn't deport him. He is lucky that they didn't take the attitude not a UK citizen , not our problem. That will teach him. Don't fly any were in the EU. Wonders why they didn't try to grab him in the US ???

[Inachu]

Any so called grabbing by hunters

If the world Allows Nazi hunters and Allows the USA govt to let oliver north have his way Then I can see how people like to turn their blind eye to any problem.

People love misery when it comes to money. This is why usury/debit is told to be good for no paticular reason. So National debt is good too?

Use of credit cards should be outlawed.

[Graham Marsden]

@ Anonymous Coward 17:26

> The problem with this strategy is that it's very "convenient" for a bunch of bigots and racists to buy into what these people are saying, invent their own little parallel universe with its own little revisionist history, and then use this new-found folklore to attack innocent people

[...]

> when such idiocy has an impact on the welfare of other human beings, it certainly isn't inappropriate to draw a line and to take sanctions against anyone who seeks to cross that line.

And the problem with your strategy is that there will *always* be some people/ bigots/ racists/ idiots will buy into this sort of thing or make up their own versions and believe what the hell they want.

But unless someone is *actually* calling for something that will "impact on the welfare of other human beings" it certainly *is* inappropriate to draw a line and take sanctions because then you get the Great Firewall of China or so-called Extreme Pornography Laws or some other form of repressive CrimeThink simply because *you* don't like what someone else says.

[Anonymous Coward]

Missing the point.. Thanks Tony!

Thanks to Bliar/Brown this no longer is "the UK", it is a subserviant of the EU and hence at one with Germany.

I am surprised that under the legislation passed we did not have german police officers storming the plane at heathrow and just carting him off back to the fatherland, or do we have to wait for the irish to revisit their referendum for those actual powers to be ratified!

[Sceptical Bastard]

Denial of free speech

Three introductory points.

Firstly, my wife's family were, until the late 1930s, German jews. By the mid-1940s, a few of them had become British jews but most of them had become smoke and ashes in Poland.

Secondly, I suspect that the Germans have strict laws against 'holocaust denial' because, as the nation whose genocidal policies resulted in the systematised deliberate cold-blooded murder of over 11 milion people (including 6 million jews) they are guilty as hell; they feel guilty as hell; and they are are terrified they might do it again.

Third, the holocaust (in which I include jews, roma gypsies, Polish civilians and PoWs, Russian prisoners, homosexuals, the mentally disabled et al) is undeniable, not least because the ever-efficient and bureaucratic Germans kept such extensive records and also because thousands of allied servicemen and diplomats saw the camps and the victims.

So to "Dr" Toben. If he and other scum like him (the rebartive Irvine for example) want to preach holocaust denial, they do little real harm and they discredit themselves as "academics". They can re-interpret, bend or fabricate evidence til their dying day but the vast majority of people will believe the facts not their fiction. Holocausts deniers may be vile but that is insufficient reason to silence them IMO.

In some countries it is illegal to deny the holocaust. But what precisely is Toben accused of? In your story, it is variously "holocaust denial", "publishing anti-Semitic content on his website", and "downplay(ing) the extent of the Nazi's mass extermination of Jewish people". Which? All three? Does the last constitute the first?

More to the point, what precisely was charged on the extradition request?

I do not think the UK can refuse an extradition request solely on the grounds that Toben has not committed a crime in the UK (or appears not to have). However, it appears he is not a UK citizen nor is he resident here. Furthermore, an underlying principle should prevail: in Germany free speech is evidently even less acceptable than here in New Lamer Britain.

I do not think Toben should be extradicted simply to help Germans appease their (rightly) guilty conscience.

Our horror at what happened in Europe in the 40s would better be served by never forgetting who perpetrated it rather than colluding with the guilty in persecuting a few ranting nutters.

As a footnote, I too detect a decidely anti-semitic tone to some of the comments above.

[Norfolk Enchants Paris]

touchy subject

It's a touchy subject innit? DON'T MENTION THE WAR! Let me state at the outset that I am not anti-jewish in any way and that I have visited Holocaust sites and monuments and have the utmost sympathy for those who died, their families and friends.

I for one wonder why Anti-Semitism is treated any differently in law (in any EU country) than any other form of discrimination, say anti-gay, anti-christian, anti-black, anti-white, anti-aged etc. How is it a more serious offence? How? Whjat possible logical reason is there for such distinction. I could theoretically publish content to a website saying that old gay negro christians are ruining the ecology and I guarantee I wouldn't get an extradition request from Germany.

Secondly, whilst I have not read the article that the Dr. wrote, and have no wish to, I have seen over and over again references in the media to 'anti-semitic' behaviour to the point where you can't say anything negative about Judaism or the nation of Israel and its actions without having this nasty tag attached to you. I agree that it's poor taste, and in defiance of all fact, to deny that the planned extermination of Jews by Nazi Germany happened - however, people don't get arrested for suggesting that the Spanish Inquisition was over-reported, or that we never drowned Witches in the UK.

Yes, the holocaust was real. Yes, it was a terrible thing. But why are people more over-sensitive to this than to any other form of discrimination, racism or stupidity?

[Inachu]

hmmm

@ Sceptical Bastard

Do you think the despora was only to be in Biblical times or will it be forever on going?

Neocons think it is now time for all to return back to Israel.

So I am confused to think that some people think they have the right to live anywhere on planet earth even if they move to a country that hates them? Is this matter of money or religion or to be in every city and every nation of the globe to prevent extinction? With todays method of transportation and willingness to be open to international trade countries are less alienated by seeing people who do not look like themselves but should this be the reason why even now at this time the reason for moving for some to even think about using the word "DESPORA"

For some that means you could not make it in your own country. What a shame.

Not everyone has a right to think they are a NEW WORLD ORDER citizen to think they can come and go as they please to any country as they see fit and expect to be a citizen of that country.

What is being done today is not Biblical at all.

[Sceptical Bastard]

@Norfolk

While I see your point, you choose untenable parallels. There is no comparison to be made between the Spanish Inquisition or medieval witch-burning and Germany's holocaust . If you must make comparisons, more valid parallels can be drawn between German totalitarianism and the barbarous tyrannies of, among others, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot.

You also ask "why are people more over-sensitive to (the holocaust) than to any other form of discrimination, racism or stupidity?" Firstly, what the Germans did went far beyond "discrimination, racism or stupidity"; secondly the sheer scale makes it extraordinary (though Stalin was undoubtedly responsible for more deaths); and thirdly Germany's holocaust was initiated, organised and executed by the legitimate government of a modern state (though the same applies to Stalin's atrocities).

[michael]

re:Bail?!

"but as others have said: what makes them think they have the right to extradite hime from the UK?"

probably the EU constitution....opps I mean treaty or what ever they are calling thses things

I still find it incredible that this came to court with out some sort of evidence form the procreation I think we are missing some sort of info here

[BioTube]

They're just making matyrs

The worst way to silence an opinion these days is to criminalize it or hasn't anyone heard of the Streisand effect? Never mind the fact that the tactics Germany uses to keep Nazis silent are awfully close to those of the Nazis.

Though if Germany's gonna be demanding extradition of somebody who committed a criminal-in-Germany action in Australia, maybe the US should challenge the Holocaust denial law for being unconstitutional - it's the same logic.

[Inachu]

Let the reader beware.

The comments here are just as bad as a yiddish theatre.

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF?

Okay first of all what am I missing...? What does any of this have to do with Germany? He must be linked to Germany in some way yes ?? EXPLAIN?

I agree completely with the first poster, they got it in one (except the bit about Canadians, and I think they meant Quebecians..)

Why isn't this all over the news?! Stories like this make me want to deny the jewish holocaust just for the sake of it. It's bloody sickening. I can somewhat understand why it has to be a law in (IN) Germany. Due to the EXTREME circumstances of Germany's past.. but they should have it more as a gesture rather than a strictly enforceable law that they use to stifle free speech.

Then again... it hasn't spread into other forms of thought control..* so I suppose maybe it is okay considering the history and associated danger, and is just 'one of those things'.

After all, Japan hates foreigners and even has signs telling them to f**** off and we still all seem to get along fairly well. Hell there are even plenty of foreigners living in Japan

Personally I prefer to hear people's views so I can tell who the idiots are. " Ah, so you don't believe (or should I say 'you deny') evolution? " "you think all gay people are pedos?"

Okay great!........ weirdo.

* I say it isn't spreading but according to this story maybe it is.. Can we have confirmation that the man arrested is not related to Germany? Does he drive a Volkswagen... anything ??

[Norfolk Enchants Paris]

@sceptical

I realise that the atrocities that tge German state performed against Jews and others were tessible, and large scale. Perhaps the Witches analogy was poor, but the Inquisition (and yes, the purges also) are fine analogies - people murdered by the state for their beliefs. We don't see John Cleese et al extradited to Spain for bursting through the walls stating that nobody ever expects the Spanish Inquisition.

My points, simply, are thus:

1: Remarks about Jews in general cause one to be labelled 'Anti-Semitic', regardless of the nature or validity of those remarks.

2: If you are deemed to be 'Anti-Semitic' this is seen than as more evil than being a homophobe, a racist, anti-muslim, anti-northerner etc.

I still don't understand why this is so. I personally see no distinction between these forms of anti-ness, or why one should be reviled more than others. I do see why the specific actions of Germany in the 30's and 40's should be reviled more than, say, the homophobic rules of the US Army.

[Inachu]

nuts

I am sure one day soon there will be jewish hackers bent of tracking down every ip address linked to antisemitism Be it an up front attack such as stormfront or be it a silly jewish girls online guestbook who has fellow jewish teens leaving silly remarks.

There will be those who take things too far both on the left and right and both will proclaim they have a right,a mandate by god. Well if you claim a right then others will have that right as much as you do and your right does not take their rights away. Even after reading other news that some people are trying to make the "COEXISIT" bumper sticker banned which is made up of religious symblos.

Kinda reminds me of the Jerry Springer video where a KKK guy and a jewish body gaurd got into a scuffle over symbolic gestures. One is allowed to have german and jewish pride and to have one which is better than another is foolish. But hisotry plays itself out as Germans being the fools. The german govt is allowing jewish victims of the Holocaust to buy historical german buildings then after the purchase they tear them down. It is the same difference as to how they obtain their german last name. Germany is no more. get over it. I was there recently and the beer sucks long live TsingTao chinese beer!

[elderlybloke]

The Nazis

killed a lot of people in Russia , Eastern Europe and the Balkans, because Adolf Hitler wanted to exterminate SLAVIC people, who he called "sub-human".

With the Russian dead at around 25 Million at the last count I know of, then many more Slavic people died because they were Slavic , than died because they were Jews.

Strange that few seem to care about that Holocaust.