US customs: Yes, we can seize your laptop, iPod The Department of Homeland Security has outlined what we've all known for some time - that border agents are allowed to snoop through files on your computer, mobile phone or any other digital device. Officials can keep documents or computers, take them to an off-site location, copy the contents and share the data with other …
Big round applause for the DHS and government, you finally got what you wanted! I always wanted to take my kids to Disneyland and visit me relies in Florida, but that has now gone out the window.
"Sorry kids, I'm afraid it's EuroDisney for you lot, if you want to make friends with Mickey and Minnie! Why? 'Cos a group of nasty people in America seem to consider that we are all naughty and want to punish us, even though we have done nothing wrong."
The only reason I will set foot in the US now is when Gordo finally gives up on this country and sells the whole shooting match to his bestest mate Dubya for a knock-down price, and it's finally renamed "GB - The 51st State!"
Everyone should *request* their lappy/ipod be searched. Thats right. If every single traveler formally requested a search, it would screw up the system big time. They have no way to account for that volume and it would cause total chaos in customs.
@Andy, the way I read it is that they cant search mail being sent officially through the border by a federal carrier service (I.E. royal mail or US post office). Carrying it through yourself doesnt protect you. That being said, just put all your stuff you dont want pilfered through on a DVD and first class it to wherever you will be staying in the US.
The last bit in the pdf document states:
"F. No Private Right Created
This document is an internal policy statement of CBP and does not create any rights,
privileges, or benefits for any person or party."
That means that if anything they do in their 'policy' is unconstitutional it can be challenged in court.
Could it be a coincidence that my company recently rolled out 256-bit full-HDD encryption?
Interestingly nowhere on that document does it state that they can require an individual to hand over their encryption keys. Good luck to any customs official trying to swipe data and break the key - methinks the company would rather put any unfortunate employee right back on a return flight..
Uh, I suspect that "relies" should be pronounced "rellies" and is intended to be a corruption of "relatives". So the poster is obviously wanting to go to the USA (one trip) to accomplish two goals: a) visit Disneyland, in California; and b) visit his relatives, in Florida.
As far as sensitive data on laptops is concerned: don't keep it locally. SSH? VPNs? Are you seriously telling me you can't take a secured laptop and find a cheap, high-speed internet connection, and get all your data over an encrypted remote session? I understand some of these business users may want to work during the long trip over - TrueCrypt? 256-bit AES-encrypted folders hidden invisibly within other 256-bit AES-encrypted folders? Come on now.
from the pdf referenced:
"Translation and Decryption. Officers may encounter information in
documents or electronic devices that is in a foreign language and/or
encrypted. To assist CBP in determining the meaning of such
information, CBP may seek translation and/or decryption assistance from
other Federal agencies or entities. Officers may seek such assistance
absent individualized suspicion. Requests for translation and decryption
assistance shall be documented."
Doesn't say you have to provide decryption keys, so if the entire HDD is encrypted they either have to copy it and try and decrypt it themselves or send your laptop off to be decrypted.
"Officers may detain documents and electronic
devices, or copies thereof, for a reasonable period of time to perform a thorough
border search."
No idea what a reasonable period of time might be? At any rate, with sufficiently strong encryption (and nothing of importance on it) it would quickly become a huge pain in the arse to deal with. Encrypt every cheap flash drive you have in your bag with the strongest system you can find and tie them up with red tape (documenting their requests for encryption) :)
Of course they could decide to take your computer anyway :(
"Original documents and devices should only be transmitted when
necessary to render the requested assistance."
Is this the US government way of forcing people into "cloud" computing?
Surely the only reason people are exercised about this is that they have forgotten that the USA is a foreign country. They are different from us. Hostile, to a degree. They will spy on us and would keep us out if they could. Once we remember this and behave accordingly, it's not so bad.
"I love how the free world keeps setting such a wonderful example for everyone else."
Free world? Very funny mate. Some time in the 1980s perhaps. In 2008 I'd choose another expression for places where you get on the national DNA database for dropping litter, and my local town councillor can order up surveillance on whomever he suspects of letting their dog poop on his lawn.
And what if you have one of those diplomatic passport thingies? Or are they easily cloned and useless too or just no good either even if they are genuine.
And what is to stop a malcontent putting anything onto a device, whenever it is away at the Doctor's. Bugger all, I suppose.
My company (or to be specific, the company that employs me, and who for reasons of myself not getting a talking to shall remain nameless) has already briefed us on the new rules on this and set out guidelines for what kind of data we are allowed to bring with us physically when we travel.
Unsurprisingly anything that can be of any value at all now resides on a network location that we have to establish a secure connection to every time we wish to access it.
Thank god terrorists arn't that smart eh?
I certainly hope that any business traveler with sense will follow the guidance that only critical data for your current needs should be stored on laptops, all other data must be stored on company network storage ONLY. I know of many companies who have this policy. Plus, most offfer dialup or VPN or both to get to that data.
I know I would only be allowed to have documents I need for the flight on my laptop. I think driving will now be approved as the prefered method of interstate travel.
I've stopped taking work that requires me to go to the US and I've cut back my flying significantly. I cannot stand being treated like a criminal going through the airport by people who seem to have forgotten they're actually supposed to be there providing us with a service. More than a few of them act like they're doing you a very grudged favour by letting you fly.
Do they honestly expect a terrorist to be carrying a laptop with a document on the desktop entitled "Plans to blow up the United States"? What REALLY are the objectives behind allowing these numpties this sort of power? I suppose the least paranoid explanation is it allows them to say to the right wing press that they're "doing something" about terrorism.
Quote
Officers who find business or commercial information "shall take all reasonable measures to protect that information from unauthorized disclosure".
/Quote
So don't take your confidential/corporate information to or through the US. If they don't use it to brief your US competitors, it'll just get left on a train.
"I always wanted to take my kids to Disneyland and visit me relies in Florida, but that has now gone out the window."
so, just because the border cops *may* search your laptop your not gonna take your kids on a holiday to Florida ? that's the most lame excuse i have heard yet for not taking the kids on holiday, at least blame the credit crunch...... forget euro Disney anyway, for what it costs, its not much more to go to Florida...
ether leave the laptop at home while you went on holiday, or remove data you don't want anyone else to see...
the whole issue is pathetic, if they want to search your laptop, let them. I can see it may be a issue for a business traveler, but if it is going to be a issue for anyone seeing the data, don't keep it on the computer..... download it when you get your destination !!!
mines the one with the purple gloves hanging out the pockets
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of how ridiculous this is getting. Knowing this gov't. please everyone request that their equipment be searched. laptops, ipods, zunes, the works. They will have no idea what to do with it. Infact if you have free HD space. zip or rar up your trash and make copies until your drive is full encrypt it, put the key on a post it note on the bottom of the drive it will be madness.
Then use a live CD and VPN back to your office to get work done.
Where the fuck is my moon base, this ride sucks and I want to get off
and people thought the plot was ridiculous... the very idea of a data courier carrying confidential data across borders encrypted on a data-drive linked into his brain... I can see there being a stimulus for developing this sort of device for getting commercially confidential data through US customs... because downloading it via ftp or whatever when you get there will mean it gets intercepted and sent to be decrypted.
don't apply to non US citizens so you can bleat and quote them 'til yer blue in the face and it will have zero, nil, nada effect. I often tell my friends that in the US you are subject to at least 9 levels of policing all of whom can arrest you, whereas in the UK I think the only people who can actually arrest you are the police.
Paris cos she knows what its like to be arrested, and to have her private video raided.
Efros
..that the shaven gorilla going through your laptop is going to think about checking your wallet for an SD card?
What exactly are they looking for anyway? Unless they are expecting to find "Secret_WMD_plans.doc" sitting on the desktop, how are they going to have time to search through all those massive harddrives getting packed into laptops nowadays?
...in secure connections to remote servers and encryption? Really? Do you connect to them via your own satellite and satellite-phone, or how do you do it? I would much rather trust in a hidden micro SD than in anything that has to pass a wire on its way. Fill your lappy with heavily encrypted bullshit data anyway, they can have their fun with that.
that YOU are a threat to the establishment, if you can think for yourself, don't work for 'the authorities', and won't bend over and let anyone do what they want to you.
also, because we havn't gotten as terrified by all this BOGUS 'terror' stuff as we are supposed to be, this is a way of trying to keep us all scared so we are easier to control and manipulate.
well, i will NEVER be going over to the ol US of A. not because i am anyones 'enemy' at all, but just because i refuse to be bullied and pushed around this way.
..multiple layers of encryption? or something that auto-expires so you need some kind of physical device (which the makeup of cant be determined) to reset the enc/de-cryption keys of? :)
Flame at paranoid souls (whose x-rays couldnt tell difference between a glass ornament we brought back and a solid clubbing object)
You people just don't seem to get it. They're not interested in your confidential company documents. These documents are usually so full of industry specific lingo and acronyms they'd never have a hope of translating them. They're not interested in so called "terrorists" with secret plans. If one of those came along they'd be as surprised as we would be.
No, this is about viral analysis of dissenters. They want your cookies, your web browsing history, your application logs, and your configuration files. They [the neo-cons or whatever you'd like to call them] want the ability to prevent organized resistence against their capricous whims. Do you go to web sites which question the validity of the war on terror? Have you ever traveled to/from the country of origination/destination before? Are these two things interrelated? If your identity is cross-referenced with your communication tree and if you've communicated with a known "truther" in the past, then is this trip the pretext for some manifestation of dissent?
Ask yourself this question: if I decided tomorrow that the powers that be are utterly corrupt and evil, what organized resistence could I make? I'm afraid the answer is none. They'll know and they'll know nearly immediately. You cannot even send courriers [get it now?] to send messages.
Aha, you say, I'll just delete all that before I go anywhere! Haha! Well, that gets noticed too. That's probably fairly revealing information. You've got something to hide.
Can you imagine an iPod with 2 days worth of tracks with someone screaming "You b******s; leave my files alone"
I can imagine some low level clerk being tasked to listen to the whole thing, then having to go through it again at high and low speeds (backwards even) to check to see if there are any hidden messages.
Gives me a warm glow just thinking about it.
I'm not going there again. I own a few 8GB SD cards and stuff, and my pr0n is on a hidden, 256-bits encrypted, hidden filesystem already, but that does it. My longer-than average hair and casual dressing habits already qualify me for a "random" extensive check every time I go to the US (sometimes *two* extensive searches -I kid you not), each time making it difficult for me to catch my plane, what if the US monkeys want to have a look at my triple-boot laptop and the 2 external drives that go with it? Methink I'll have to get to the airport one week in advance (just to think I could have to explain *why* it is triple-boot -and what it means- to a non-techie USian. Yuck.).
Now there is a problem, as the handbrake works in DC. Heck, she'll just have to find a job in a civilized country.
Now I foresee a solution... GRUB waiting time set to 0, default boot to Vista (it came with it and I didn't remove it), I bet no US custom person (whatever the seniority) will even imagine that there's something else on the laptop. Oh, wait. Given Vista's boot time, I'll still miss my plane. Forget it.
They are not interested in your data -- they are really not. These are arbitrary rules, purely constructive. You can carry any data you like, as long as you acknowledge that they have the right to look at it. If you make it hard for them to look at your data by encrypting it or hiding it, you are not acknowledging their authority, and they will make your life tedious. It's all about containment.
Remember, they are not there to stop terrorists. They are there to :
1. Show you who's boss.
2. Stop an exodus from the city or state should something bad happen.
"...Can you imagine an iPod with 2 days worth of tracks with someone screaming "You b******s; leave my files alone"..."
alternately, just fill your ipod with several thousand copies of "fuck the USA" by 'the exploited'.
or even better just don't visit the USA. OK there might be some nice scenery, but that's slightly outweighed by the fact it's a militaristic fascist shithole - where if the police don't beat you up and shoot you, the local twelve year olds will. why the hell anyone would want to go there in the first place beats me!
do you do it just to make nu-lab-britain seem slightly less shitty by comparison?
a UK traveller with his encrypted laptop gets his laptop taken. He refuses to give his password and sent back home.
The US tell the UK about your laptop and ask the Met to get the password for them..
A few day's later the police knock at his door saying they want to have a chat about your laptop and it's password.
If you refuse you get locked up for a few years and labelled a terrorist......
Mine is the one with the padded insides and padded envelopes
I love americans - they spend so much money on the 'apperance' of being safe. As many people have pointed out - what is the point of this when you have the internet? Just download any dodgy data when you get into the country.
Hopefully if the UK govt pull this shit - we can stop them by telling them its to expensive. (they wont listen the the worthless argument).
We've all heard that you can be "forced" to give up passwords and the like, regardless of whether you actually know them.
I'm fairly sure something to this effect exists (hell, it's a piece of cake with any assymmetric key encryption), so why haven't we thought (or rather, why haven't I seen the suggestion yet) of putting the decryption key on a stick and _leave it at home_ or whatever? Mailing it forward would work as well, I suppose.
Gah, the fact that circumventions like this have to be made disgusts me. Papers please, indeed.
Icon because I'm not sure what it even represents but it looks like a helicopter.
Not sure if I speak for the guy you were replying to -- but this has made me decide to put the US on my "never going there" list (though I have been in the past). The reason? Do I carry lots of terrorist plans and company secrets around with me? No, at least not outside of my head, the reason is simple: I refuse to visit countries ruled by oppressive, unelected, governments. Just a shame I have to live in the People's Democratic, Free Republic of Great Britain.
So I take my laptop in which has193,000 files in 50GB on it. How can they check that - and thats a tiny amount compared to my wife's laptop or most of my friends.
So I hide my "plans to bomb Disneyworld" in a file with a executable extension and hide it in the windows folder or in a folder under the Program Files folder (and we all know how many apps when de-installed leave crap in there so there is no way of checking each of the files).
Is that 15MB file called photoshopelements.exe really photoshop?
Or what about those .dbf files - Oracle datafiles or terrorist documents? Or that zip file with a MySQL DB with Blobs in it. Innocent data or plots to give Congress a brain?
What about that 4GB pagefile.sys file. Is it really a pagefile?
I don't know which Peabrained moron in the US Government came up with this idea. I get the feeling that people in government just dont understand the modern world - look at this stupid UK Gov Idea that ALL internet videos should be reviewed BEFORE they are made available.
All this crap will, as everyone with two brain cells to rub together will know, NOT stop terrorists. All it does is piss off the innocent people who are sick and fed up of being treated by their OWN government, and the government of supposedly "Friendly" nations, as criminals
Depends who you work for.
Boeing have been prosecuted in europe for using echelon intercepted communications to win a contract over BAe.
French security got caught so many times nicking stuff from the Paris Airshow that Americans don't go there anymore.
If you worked for Airbus you wouldn't mind handing over a blackberry with all your emails to customers to secuity in Seattle? Or an oil company that competes with the Bush family in Houston?
If you compete with a US company with military business you can assume your data will be handed over to them by the goverment. If you compete with a local company, it will be handed over by a bribed security guy.
I almost cried when they pushed through the whole DHS BS right after the attack. They had a problem with too much red tape and dumb ass public officials getting in the way of "the job" and their solution? Add ANOTHER layer of red tape and dumb ass public officials to the mess.
Oh, and while we are at it, lets go ahead and ignore a few of those pesky Constitutional protections while everyone is scared and easily herded. No law abiding citizen has anything to hide, so let's go ahead and basically strip search everyone that wants to fly on public transportation. The 4th Amendment be damned!
As Benjamin Franklin once said: "The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."
The Lord knows we didn't trade freedom for security. We simply discarded a significant portion of freedom for nothing. And many of the fools in the country cheered for it.
Jokes aside, it is no longer safe for any businessperson to take more or less any business laptop to the USA (or indeed, just about anywhere else outside the EU). EU law requires personal data to be protected. US law requires you to had it over. So unless you are certain that there is no personal data on your lap-top, you should not travel abroad with it.
Of course, since these days only US citizens are protected by US law and anyone foreign can be arrested, held indefinitely without charge and even be tortured, you might prefer not to go there at all. To think it was once "the land of the free"!
(That's a non-white vulture with the same name as a terrorist, in case you were wondering).
Tried my best not to rofl when the guy upstairs told me the TSA refused to let him board his plane with 2 deadly ham and swiss sandwiches. Next they'll be taking our bottles of water from us.. oh wait..
Coincidence that airlines have started charging for meals and drinks? Riiiight, of course it is.
I'm sure it's something they don't grow tired of; last time I went to america I had long hair unlike now, I wore predominantly black and probably worst of all, I flew out of Belfast International Airport here in Northern Ireland - I was "randomly" selected for two different searches, during which they x-rayed literally everything I owned seperately, X-Rayed my shoes and the empty case and even had some goon from DHS pat down my hair (presumably incase I had stiletto knives hidden in its length). It's absurd and it's not getting any saner.
The government's right to investigate at the border is not limited in any manner: it applies far beyond electronic devices (computers, storage). ANY repository of information--wallet, purse, briefcase, trouser pocket, conference notes and binder--can be held and investigated. (In fact, any object whatsoever. Without reasonable grounds for suspicion.) That has long been the policy for non-U.S. citizens crossing the border.
The new development is that the policy has just recently been applied to U.S. citizens entering the country. In effect, the federal court approved the argument that the U.S. Constitution's 4th Amendment rights of citizens against unreasonable searches and seizure applies only once the citizen has been allowed by border guards to come back into the country.
Just follow uncle Anonymous' 1-2-3 below:
1: Upload any data you'll need while you're in the states to your website, in a password-protected directory. My hosting provider lets me do this; I'm sure yours does also.
2: When you enter the U.S. don't bring any electronics with you. Only carry clothes. Once you've touched down and been waved through customs by the guard, who will now be utterly bored with you, proceed directly to Wal-Mart (or a local pawn shop) and pick up a cheap laptop and some single-use cameras. When you get to your hotel, download your data from your website using their complimentary network access. Enjoy your vacation or business trip as you would normally.
3. When it's time to go home, upload your data to your website, format the laptop's hard drive, stick it in a Postal Service mailer, and mail it to your house. Take any photos you've shot, and stick them in a SEPARATE envelope (in case the laptop gets "lost") and mail THOSE back to your house in a regular envelope. Then go through customs with only your clothes, as you came in. On future trips, mail the laptop to your hotel in advance, and so on. It's cheap, so if it gets "lost" you won't be heartbroken.
It's inconvenient, but it'll get you where you're going with a minimum of hassle. What's an extra 500 bucks paid one time, compared to the level of irritation you might otherwise be facing?
Consider it "the cost of doing business"...
Sillyfellow wrote:
"also, because we havn't gotten as terrified by all this BOGUS 'terror' stuff as we are supposed to be, this is a way of trying to keep us all scared so we are easier to control and manipulate."
So in other words, we are terrorized to prevent from being terrorized. Same difference. Except that from a statistical point of view, the cure is worse than the problem.
I am not an expert, but here's my (partly informed) opinion:
Constitution: There is no US Constitution until you pass through Immigration. Pointing out you're on US soil means nothing, as it's classed as International Territory until you're through Immigration. Forget it.
Encryption: The DHS want to make sure the data they have is accurate and complete, so they'll probably want to compare the copy with the original. The Border Guard won't care about encryption or not; He'll want to see if THIS word document is the same as THAT word document in the copy. If he can't read either, you don't get your laptop back until he can.
Fly back home: Good plan. Trouble is, to get into Departures you need to get through Immigration TWICE. I don't think they'll have a special room just for you to be awkward without some very unhygenic investigative practices occuring.
Either take a vanilla Vista installation with a couple of letters and family photos, or leave the whole thing at home and use a cyber cafe / hotel computers. If anyone paying attention figures out you purposefully circumvented "The System" i've a feeling that US Gov. reading your latest sales figures will be the VERY least of your worries.
"Officials can keep documents or computers, take them to an off-site location, copy the contents and share the data with other agencies."
Does anyone remember the Star Trek episode where the Enterprise crew saved some Borg and embedded a paradoxical file that once examined by 'The Collective' would cripple the Borg?
If you don't, here's the link:
http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TNG/episode/68552.html
Anyways, I recommend all US-bound travelers to do the same thing. Just don't wimp out like Picard, m'kay.
When I was in the Navy (and had ID to prove it, and had my travel bag filled with spare uniforms just in case) I STILL got pulled aside for 'random searches' every damned time I flew, even when I was on transfer orders and the Navy itself was paying for my damned tickets.
If they're profiling, there's also an age component too - apparently 18-26 year olds are to be suspected of everything in the book.
Kind of lends some credence to the above "The information they're looking for" post....
Hiding the stuff you want hidden in some system file folder, thinking they can't find it there because the filename is innocent sounding?
You (and everyone else who made that suggestion) seem to think that they will inspect all those files manually, apparently?
Did it occur to you that they could use ... you know ... computers to do that? Scan through ALL files (computers are good at this kind of stuff), look for strings or encrypted content automatically, etc.
Sounds like very few of you have tried entering the UK without going through the home citizen line. Immigration and customs officials are the same everywhere, the US is no different. There's something ironic about people who live in the UK saying they won't go to the US because it is a police state, especially on a website with regular articles about the latest uk.gov "security" scheme.
The easiest way to get through is to marry a US citizen - the whole family can now go through the fastest and least uptight queues when entering both the UK and US. Still have to wait ages for the luggage though.
Americans are all tossers anyway. I could not care less about their stupid draconian laws. Anyone with a ounce of sense knows this will only impact the law adibing people, the terrorists are always one step ahead..
Oh and leave afghanistan, you will never win, did you not learn from the russians or vietnam, oh sorry i forgot you "solved" the conflict in Northern Ireland, ha ha ha .....
Not going. Had it.
I've had that feeling for a few years, since i was "lucky" enough to spend like 6 months over there. Messed up I tell you. And that's not just me.
And they all just sit back and let it happen. I wonder if we, in the UK, would react any differently...I doubt it...When will ya'll waken up? www.realityinfo.org Snap to it:)
I think you're incorrect on the constitution part of that. There was a case in the Supreme Court where a drug trafficker argued that the removal of his fuel tank (to find ~40kg of pot) was an non routine intrusive search, and as such cannot be carried out without reasonable cause (two lower courts agreed with him, and ordered the pot evidence to be suppressed).
The supreme court actually agreed that it was an intrusive search, but that it could be carried out without reasonable cause because
- its reasonable because it is a border
- the reasons intrusive searches of the person can only be done with reasonable cause - 'dignity and privacy rights of the person concerned' - dont apply to a vehicle
I expect you'd have a good case arguing that anything illegal found as a result of an intrusive search of your data would be an infringment of your privacy rights, especially if encrypted. I also expect that the Supreme Court would find some other way of denying you your 4th amendment rights, especially if you're seen doing a terrorist fist jab.. They want your data, and they're gonna get it.
Besides that, surely copying of the data from your hard drive without probable cause is an unwarranted seizure - the sort of thing that is known to kick off a revolution in the colonies. I could see a court agreeing with this; a border search is a transient event, like getting a speeding ticket. You're seized for the duration of the border search, but after it is complete, you are released. I think you may have a reasonable argument that your goods and data should similarly be released.
Tell any company in the USA that wants my time to fuck off. I've done so before, and now I have yet another reason to do so again. If they want me to work for them, they'll deal with me outside the USA. No way in hell am I travelling to that increasingly fascist state that is proving yet again it has no respect for "due process".
Presumably the "reasonable amount of time" that your laptop can be held and its contents shared with any of your competitors is roughly the same as the "limited time" that copyrights apply. That is, by SCOTUS interpretation, forever. ("Heckuva DOS, Brownie")
Although I agree that they are probably fishing for dissidents (e.g. registered democrats and libertarians), and the industrial espionage is just a nice perk.
First, this is not a dig at the US. It's a complaint about the western response to terrorism.
I have a brother who's a US citizen and has been living there for decades. I also have a nephew who is currently seeking citizenship. Both of them love it in the US. In a recent email, my nephew said how everyone was so polite.
It just goes to show stereotyped citizens of a nation can become. I'll bet that the people of Ibiza have a pretty dim view of folk from the UK.
Wikipedia.com has a page on Terrorism. Interestingly, it says there is no internationally agreed definition, they are acts intended to create fear in the name of an ideological cause. They deliberately target non-combatants. Warfare of this type is unconventional and psychological in nature.
The psychological nature of terrorism is one aspect that interests me. When citizens are frightened, it gives a government an opportunity to introduce measures they would not normally get away with. It seems we get our freedoms eroded bit by bit. Peoples fears are used against them by the people in power, who want more power. Witches, anarchists, the first red scare, the cold war, McCarthyism, the IRA, bask separatists and al-quaeda. The list is truly endless. Each and every one inspires fear, real or imagined.
Ask yourself this, when your next at an airport, with armed police carrying machine guns. Do you feel safer or do you feel more fearful?
Your getting on a plane, there are some men who are talking to each other in Arabic. Are you more afraid to get on the plane? Does the destination matter?
After the events of 9/11 and 7/7 lots of people interviewed said that they would not behave any differently because that would be letting the terrorists win. They were absolutely right. It's a crying shame that our governments feel they should inconvenience everyone, regardless of who they are.
Take Mr. Jayakody for example, prevented from boarding a flight because he had a t-shirt with a cartoon character holding a gun. He was forced to change before he could board. This is the levels at which we stoop in the name of security. Did the official think he could somehow intimidate or terrorise the other people on board the plane with a t-shirt?
This not about a war on terror, it's about inducing terror in your own citizens so (in the UK), local councils can invoke anti-terrorism laws to have you watched for any reason they want and are able to gain entry to your house under the pretence of 'checking what energy rating your fridge has' or 'checking your house plants for insects'. For you non UK citizens, I'm not making this up, these laws have been passed.
The worse thing about this kind of stuff is, WE pay for it in taxes and WE pay for it with our freedom.
I'm off to breath some air now, as I think that's about the only thing left I can do in peace, without some jumped up arsehole with a clipboard telling me otherwise.
...since more than one poster has mentioned them I'll see you and raise you and raise you some gunships....
"As darkness fell, soldiers, tanks, and police secretly surrounded the crowd. At a preset signal, helicopters, undercover agents in the crowd, two columns of soldiers advancing in a pincer movement, and tanks opened fire. Over 300 people were murdered and thousands wounded and jailed on that October 2 evening..."
(Mexico City, 1968)
The thing that's annoying about the CBP's attitude to search and seizure is that they maintain that nothing they do is protected by the Constitution since it all happens -- technically -- outside US borders. They're probably trampling on the Constitution but it will take some very deep pockets to sort it out.
All the people who fought and died for freedom, only to see it taken away by governments in the interests of protecting the polulation ?
For fucks sake if I have to live with this bullshit drop a fucking bomb on me and have done with it. I am sick of all this fuckwitted security crap when travelling. I am *NOT* a fucking criminal, yet I am treated as such. This is worse than prison - anything I say, own, posess or do can get me locked up.
The terrorists have won already. We have already lost.
Fucking stupid bastard government wake up !
Brown, be a good retard and fuck off back to the asylum. Bush you're already in one !
They will drop their prices. Shit, I thought Apple put SOME value on what customers thought, obviously not.
If this is the way operators are going to treat their customers, this iPhone will flop just like the last one did (outside of America). Purses are being tightened and people know what extortion is when they see it.
I was going to buy one but I am off to get an N95 instead... better phone too.
"so, just because the border cops *may* search your laptop your not gonna take your kids on a holiday to Florida ? that's the most lame excuse i have heard yet for not taking the kids on holiday, at least blame the credit crunch...... forget euro Disney anyway, for what it costs, its not much more to go to Florida..."
And provide some financial support for the Fascist State of AmeriKKKa?
I don't think so.
Encrypted hard drives: It's my understanding that you can be held (indefinitely) until you give up your password. So no help there. I've heard of people encrypting their actual data on an unmounted partition and keeping a "dummy" OS on the active partition, but a good forensics expert would find a partition containing what could be encrypted data, and then you're back to the "held indefinitely" part.
However, there is a practical workaround that works almost anywhere. Find a Taco Bell or coffee shop with wifi, upload encrypted data to a server somewhere on the Internet, erase from your laptop (*really* erase, not just "empty recycle bin") cross border, download data on the other side. Leave a few Page 3 images lying about so you don't seem too squeaky-clean.
Alternately, leave encrypted data on server, work with it only through internet connection. Then the only challenge is to clean temporary files off the local computer before going over the border.
If you're really serious, upload data to server, discard laptop, cross border, purchase laptop on other side, download data.
With practically any system on the Internet available on both sides of most borders, it's kind of naive to assume that anyone really serious about privacy would carry the goods across the border on their own laptop or PDA. That might be cool in spy/action flicks but it's not necessary in real life.
Yes, it's awful isn't that we have a country so obsessed with watching everyone that it's capital is the most heavily surveilled city in the world. A country where you can be detained without a warrant for weeks until they decide to let you go. A country where simply carrying a camera can make you seen as a terrorist. Where you can go to jail if you don't give up your passwords when they want them.
Wait a minutes.....that's England we're talking about, not the USA.
The US is a fascist neo-con paranoid state, eh? Pot.....kettle..........
Well if the US authorities can get information out of my bad tempered laptop they are welcome to it. The beastly thing is forever locking up and losing documents just before I'm about to save the work.
With a bit of luck they will seize it and I will get a replacement with a CPU somewhat faster than a Z80.
ps - don't tell my laptop that I sent this message
So before you leave, you load up your HDD with all sorts of disgusting (but legal!) pr0n, rename all the files to suspect names like 'Plan A - Whitehouse.jpg', 'Plan B - New Yolk.jpg', etc.
A nice goatse background and flying vagina mouse cursors for the desktop and use some stegno s/ware to hide the text string "I hope you've enjoyed wasting tax payers dollars!" in every single image. Set the background image to a closeup of goatse and the mouse cursors various flying penis.
Look very nervous as you approach the gates, then kick back and get a good laugh as they waste hours upon hours going through your laptop.
Don't visit the Evil Empire.
Americans as individuals (well, the couple of dozen I know personally) are great people. But they live under a vicious government with a political system based on wealth and corruption. Bush and Cheney have, almost singlehandly, destroyed American's reputation in the world outside their borders.
Anti-American feeling is very strong in Europe. That is wrong when it comes to the American people (as opposed to the USA's national government, trade policy and foreign policy). We should judge individuals on their merits.
But we should Boycott the USA.
Yes they are badddd, since all these new regulations came into force they have created thousands and thousands of jobs for the mentally retarded and easily led.
Its a wonderful world, freedom just keeps folks poor. Ahem.
As mentioned earlier they are just after industrial secrets. As they are now waking up to the fact their US lifestyle is about to crash around them they need all the info possible on how the rest of the world lives in this new fangled 21st century. They could just ask but that would be too humiliating.
If they delete my iPod files I want my money back from Apple.
because remember those downloads cost a lot more in the UK.
Also they are not allowed to copy them off otherwise I'm reporting
them to the RIAA as music pirates.
And how can you have "revealing information" and "something to hide"
at the same time. Oh wait ...
Defeating this kind of laws and rules is not hard, however, the West cannot claim to be the "Free World" anymore, as we have left the free bit behind, a very long time ago, Neither USA, England, or other European country can claim to be a truly free society, if the word free relates to freedom, privacy rights, and civil rights. Big brother is watching your every move, and they are slowly conning the population in to giving up more and more privacy rights, and freedoms, in the name of combating Terror.
Historically, this means that a significant war is neigh, because to obtain the freedoms, that have been given up, a bloody war is historically necessary.
If you want to hide something, hide it literally in plain sight, use a pseudoramdom sequence and XOR, with a layer of encryption, then encode the data into some pornographic images, and share via P2P, now no one knows who the recipient is, amongst the millions of downloaders, nor do they know that there is a message, and proving that the sharer knew what was in the image is also hard.
Maybe instead of letting them do a search some terrorists might decide to oh I don't know... hijack the plane before hand and crash it?
Well done America, you did a great job of stopping that one. Give yourself a pat on the back.
Flame? Because that's what you get when you crash a plane into a building. Flames. Lots and lots of flames. No doubt I'll be due some too if a yank reads this.
No, the US didn't use tanks.
There are some doubts about the real drivers behind the use of some planes to kick-start central NY real estate development at the cost of an awful lot of lives, however. Note that said event has been the overarching excuse for an awful lot of questionable activities from invading a country that had little to do with the event (but just happened to start selling oil in Euros) to permitting an unprecedented raid on people's rights (which, too, is strange way to respond to a threat to democracy, call me picky). Oh, and since when does a genuine democracy allow its leader and enforcement to basically stand above the law?
It sometimes makes you wonder who the real enemy is. Terrorists appear overall a miniature problem. But anyone who's lived through the IRA years in London knew that already.
are talking of ways to defeat this defence measure brought about by the great statesmen to fight the terrorists are now considered enemy combatants....Any second now, a knock on your doors...
Guess what...now they come for you but, there is no one left to speak...
Poor Americans...
I've been thinking about some of the comments; leaving your laptop behind and buying one once you are in the US. Call me paranoid, but....
Don't forget that they now insist on having your personal deails before you fly. It would be fairly easy to set-up a check on credit card details. If you then buy a laptop, they will then be alerted to the fact that you have done so (unless you pay cash). Similarly if you pay for any high speed data access.
The fact that you have done this would immediately indicate that here is something going on worth investigating.
Someting I forgot to mention above:
"Excuse me sir, we found a large amount of random data on a flash drive in your bag. We believe it is encrypted information. Could you please provide the key to decrypt the information?"
"It's blank. I used a secure deletion program to write random data to the drive once the files were deleted. There's nothing on it."
"Could you please provide the key to decrypt the information?"
"... Shit."
"You (and everyone else who made that suggestion) seem to think that they will inspect all those files manually, apparently? Did it occur to you that they could use ... you know ... computers to do that?"
Yes it did.
This mythical scanner would have to cope with multiple operating systems and an enormous number of files. Ever virus scan 300GB of data? did you consider how practical this would be to do for every passenger?
You can't find a Truecrypt file unless you already know it is one. It is just a sequence of ones and zeroes.
If I create a file called dumb_border_guard.tmp there is no software that is going to identify it as an encrypted file and not a bunch of random data.
Although being the US they will just assume any information not stored in MS doc files must mean you a terrorist.
Paris, because even she can see it is easy to hide an encrypted file from jack-booted officials.
Ash, if the constitution doesn't apply then this must be because you aren't in the US.
If you aren't in the US then the border guards have no rights.
Either argument means they are forked.
What it really is is that the US government have wiped their claggs off on the constitution so much that they can't read the writing any more. Worse, it's losing its absorbency.
>>Ash, if the constitution doesn't apply then this must be because you aren't in the US.
If you aren't in the US then the border guards have no rights.<<
True. Thing is though that the US policies tend to get driven forward by the US into governments outside the US (even though the US won't give anything back). That's why this gets people outside the US so inflamed.
When flying from most EU countries to the any country except the US, you get processed by the country you're in. Going to the US? You get processed by a US official. Funny thing, wonder if the "search and seize" will apply there too.... even when you're not on US soil.
This year, for the first time EVER I've had to produce a passport on arrival in Dublin from Cork. That's a domestic flight... no arrival from another country, nothing.
If the trainees in CDG confiscate another item of mine that is not on the list of prohibited items...well I guess they are not trainees...simple overall French incompetency.
CDG still beats LHR to the number one spot in mind bogglingly frustrating ways.
Why is there no way to complain about this sort of treatment or legal recourse to over-aggressive customs/security in any airport throughout the world? Sigh.
As an American caught in the middle of the Government's BS & the President's utter disdain for "the god damned piece of paper" he swore to Uphold & Protect, I am now forced to travel with my Visa (passport, not CC) on me any time I need to board a plane.
Not just Internationally, but *at all*.
As a US Citizen, there's that pesky Constitutional Right against Unwarranted Search & Seizure, my Visa has the words "Shall not be subject to unwarranted delay" on it, and my Right to not be harassed without Probable Cause.
Oh, and that whole "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" clause.
So stand up for your Rights.
Throw a copy of the Constitution at the TSA Agent's head as you walk around the line for the metal detectors / body cavity search.
Sorry, I'm Innocent, there's no Probable Cause, and you're not allowed to Search my person nor belonging without a Warrant.
Oh, and you can take your "No liquids, nail files, blah blah blah" and cram it RIGHT up your ass.
None of those objects is illegal to carry on the street, nor into a Federal Building, thus you can't ban them from *Public Transport*.
And YES, that airline is subsidized by my tax dollars, just like Greyhound, Amtrack, & the local Public Transportation System.
So the next time I have to fly, I'll be bitch-slapping a TSA agent or two on my way past the lines.
Because I paid for my ticket (with cash - you don't need my information), I have a right to be on that plane (because I paid for my ticket), and unless you want to refund me my money (in cash, immediately) AND reimburse me for what-ever it is I'll miss due to your illegal cancellation of our contract, you'd better let me aboard...
And if I suddenly disappear, my family/friends will know where & why.
The resulting shit storm will probably make headlines.
And all because I refused to let the asshole in charge strip me of my Constitutional Rights.
[Pirate icon because it was people unafraid to stand up to their oppressive government who created this Nation in the first place.
Posted Anon because my government needs to fear the populace, not the other way around.]
"Do they honestly expect a terrorist to be carrying a laptop with a document on the desktop entitled "Plans to blow up the United States"? What REALLY are the objectives behind allowing these numpties this sort of power? I suppose the least paranoid explanation is it allows them to say to the right wing press that they're "doing something" about terrorism."
One question on the immigration form used to be "do you plan to overthrow the Government of the United States" - I can't remember who was alleged to have written "sole purpose of trip"...
You're right, they would not know a terrorist plan if you called the file How_To_Blowup_the_USA.odf
They might say that's what they are looking for but I think it more likely that they will be learning the following:
1. If you visit infowars.com
2. If you have any good porn that they can copy and that might be held against you
3. If you have taken the trouble to encrypt anything.
We are being trained to accept being searched.
I still think it's a good idea to encrypt anything you don't want others to see. You never know who might get hold of the laptop.
I am not sure how much anyone believes in anti-terror measures as a way to tackel terrorists. Many people simply go through the motions of their job. Others will believe what they are paid to believe. Think of how you believed in Father Christmas because by doing so you recieved presents. The grown up version is doing your job to recieve your wages.
@George Johnson
"Big round applause for the DHS and government, you finally got what you wanted! I always wanted to take my kids to Disneyland and visit me relies in Florida, but that has now gone out the window."
Take a holiday in Cuba and invite the rellies to join you there.
Job's a good'n.
I believe that the original text was "do you intend to overthrow the Government of the United States by means of armed insurrection" (just a note: the way that the USA was created in the first place?)
It was the wonderfully irascible Gilbert Harding back in the early 60's, having spent many hours waiting for a delayed flight, then a foul trip due to bad weather and yet more delays at immigration that wrote "sole purpose of visit" in large plain text. It appears that he was allowed through.
The solution to this is in two parts:
1: Refuse doing any business that requires you, or information from you, entering the Uncivilized Surveillance Area (USA)
2: Refuse doing business with any person going BACK to the Uncivilized Surveillance Area.
An optional third is:
3: Refuse doing business that requires you to be paid in currency from any country that doesn't acknowledge the United Nations charter of Human Rights (and yes, this includes the Uncivilized Surveillance Area)
When I used to travel to the USA, on return I had four boarding passes. Almost always the top one (Dalls-New york) wsa samped "SSSS" whrich meant exra security checks. So, when I went thro' border control, I swapped the order of the BP's, so it read "JFK-Frankfurt". Dumb shits never noticed, and waved me through.
Pay peanuts, etc...
America.... F*CK YEAH!!!
Coming again to save the motherf*cking day yeah!
America, f*ck yeah!
Freedom is the only weah yeah
Terrorists your game is through
Cos now you have to answer to...
AMERICA! F*CK YEAH!
So lick my butt and suck on my b@lls!
"It's the dream that we all share, it's our hope for tomoorrrrrooow".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz77TI7t7Do
Though I guess having posted this from my laptop I will now longer be able to take it to America.... DOH!
and when the happy Border folks PUT *their* pr0n collection there and say it is yours? Wot then??
("Border folks" sounds so much nicer than Grenzpolizei or Stasi or the Pogranitsnaya sluzhba FSB Rossiya)
@amanfromMars , I get a diplomatic Visa and they just allow you to bypass all queues and security controls, waved thru' no less. No photo , no fingerprints!
@ someone else, the microSD is usually wrapped in clingfilm and stored in the mouth, not the wallet, prior to being swallowed should you be cavity searched. see a recent French Oil executive , IRA and Dutch Nazi resistance back in history. I wonder what flavour my Kingston 2GB is? Maybe a bit of salt & pepper in the clingfilm!
I say maybe cause I lost the will to read through all the posts (seems nobody can resist a dig at the US government muppets).
The trick being pack your devices full of Virus' cause you can bet your bottom dollar that they won't have any virus protection when checking/scanning through your kit. What's even more likely is that they would also be networked to the rest of the US gov including defense.
Governments always want more power, especially if they are owned and run on behalf of the rich elites. They will market their power grabs to the people as 'good for you', 'for your protection' they may even simulate terrorist acts and crimes in order to bring in their new laws.
Everyone know this is what is going on right?
The people can always say to the State by what authority do you take away my liberties? Did I contract with you anywhere that your self-serving laws are applicable to me? They may throw you in jail with Bubba for a long time, but the truth is they have no authority to impose their laws on anyone, unless they have agreed to live by 'their laws'.
Name me one government that has NOT been "owned and run on behalf of the rich elites." The current problem with the former Constitutional republic once known as the "United States of America" is that the elites currently running the show have overreached so far that, now, everybody sees the "man behind the curtain in Oz" for what he really is. Lord Acton might have had the fictional legal "people" (corporations) which tell Shrub what to pretend to think in mind when he said "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
And for those who are holding out hope that, after 20 January 2009, the Democratic Wing of the Corporate Party will do any better...dream on. All you need to remember on that score is how much of the transition from "rule of law" to "rule BY law" occurred on the watch of President Blowjob (the DMCA is a shining example) and just how close he and his wife/partner came to resuming power this time 'round, until they finally endorsed Bush's Third Term via McCain. 2012 awaits.
As for where all this is going to lead... I'm presently living in a functional one-party state with pretensions of democracy, where those who dare less-than-stellar thoughts about the Great Leader, Father of the Nation, or his Son, the Dear Leader and current Prime Minister, can be made extremely unpleasant. The US Navy is a regular visitor here for shore leave... it has occurred to many expats here that this might well be a model for where the US and UK are headed. If so, then Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Wentworth and the lot made much ado over nothing, and we are much the poorer for it.
Most in the US are not happy about this either! Those that voted for our turdtastic leader probably like it though.
To the earlier poster that may have been answered, no, you are not immune from search of mail unless it is actively in the mail. Therefore, you cannot carry a sealed letter and expect it to not be searched.
There are suggestions on how to protect your laptop
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9892897-38.html
though the smartest, safest way to do so is to wipe it clean with secure erase, reinstall the OS, and put everything you need online so it can be downloaded via secure connection after you pass the gestapo. Do NOT put movies, music, or contraband on there. Presumably, you could put some movies/music on a laptop so long as you can secure erase it prior to inspection.
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