Brown pledges annual commons debate on surveillance Gordon Brown today accepted MP’s recommendations for an annual report and debate on the state of UK surveillance in a speech which rejected charges that the government’s increasing use of high-tech surveillance compromises British citizens' liberties. He also said the government was considering subjecting all new UK …
It's nice to see that Brown is not at all worried by the possibility that David Davis might stir up a huge amount of antagonism against his loverly surveillance society.
I'm sorry Brown but I don't believe that any of the nasty laws brought in since 9/11 will have any effect whatsoever. The only useful change was lockable, bulletproof cockpit doors.
When the state needs to pass a law that treats everybody as a potential terrorist so the state can discover the actual terrorist you are doing something wrong. Terrorists are very rare so why the hell are you watching me walking down the street or taking note when I fly somewhere?
I don't want to go on a great rant, because I know that I easily could, but how does fingerprint access to personal computers translate into giving all our personal information to some great central government owned database?
He's spinning like a top at the moment isn't he? I wonder if he really believes it.
I really would like to know how our Squaddies feel everytime they return from overseas to see the freedoms and liberties that they are supposedly fighting/dying for (as Brown stated earlier this week infront of his master GWB) being systematically eroded in the name of Terrorism/Peodophiles/Drugs/"Over-Hyped-Fear-Of-The-Week".
Their flimsy empty excuse for extending detention without charge to 42-days was that it is taking longer to sift through the huge amounts of accumulated data. This Accumulated data is only going to increase and hard-disks grow. Encryption strengths will get stronger, too. What will they do? Detain people for the rest of their natural lives until they finally find some scrap of evidence that the chappie may have parked on a double-yellow-line at some time in their past life...
Whatever happened to "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY"?
On top of all that, sooner or later we'll be stuck with some even worse government that really will mis-use these laws.
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up." Pastor Martin Niemöller.
Note that the above persons only needed to be "accused".
The only strong opinions I've seen for ID Cards are against it. The majority of the public don't seem to have given it much thought.
As for terrorism, I hardly feel terrorised by the current crop of amateurs. Especially when the best they can seem to do is drive a car into an airport, accidentally set fire to themselves, then get set upon by an angry Scotsman.
The “freedom of expression audit” may have some merit, unless its doublespeak. In which case we should start reffering to New Labour as Ingsoc.
"The prime minister argued that terrorism was the “most dramatic *new* threat” facing the UK in the 21st century" (emphasis mine)
Remarkable how quickly the IRA get forgotten, along with the simple fact that we weren't hiding behind our sofas back then, isn't it? Of course, one could argue that it doesn't really matter since it's only an excuse, but that would be realis^H^H^H^H^H^Hcynical...
Proceed with this nonsense since they will, no matter what anyone says.
Just as reassuring really as:
- 'Education, education, education'
- That dossier on Iraq's WMD threat capability that was presented to parliament, and
- 'There will be a referendum on the EU constitution'
Apparently he is aware there are some 'bad' people around (he managed to get the word 'moral' in) so this is justification for routinely spying on ordinary people instead.
I was watching Brown on tv make this speech and when he spluttered a few times I wished I'd been there to 'help' him, though I'd probably have to explain myself as clearly as the politicos do:
"This is a new form of Heimlich manoeuvre, it only looks like I'm punching him in the stomach!"
he is!
So GB interprets “many people now have laptops activated by finger-scans.” as "people think fingerprinting everyone is a Good Thing".
No Gordon.
“many people now have laptops activated by finger-scans.”
means that people are now more PERSONALLY security concious, that's all.
Say it often enough though, and the media will start to believe it. Once you've convinced them...
"we have used nineteenth century means to solve twenty first century problems"
What like effective policing, parliamentary democracy, respect for citizens ?
"Instead we must have twenty first century methods"
Like total surveillance, internment without trial and a suspicion of a particular religous group - sounds like a mid-20th Century method to me !
"Brown said that citizens were not alarmed by the government's demands for biometric data, saying this was proved by the fact that “many people now have laptops activated by finger-scans.”"
So, he's comparing your own fingerprint stored only on your laptop with a national database containing everyones fingerprints and associated information?
Do they ever talk to techy people before making these comments?
*Brown said that citizens were not alarmed by the government's demands for biometric data, saying this was proved by the fact that “many people now have laptops activated by finger-scans.”*
Missed the point about how you choose to buy a lappy with fingerprint recognition, or how the laptop doesn't store the data on a server belonging to the government which may or may not be left on a train next week.
IT, coz the government don't have a clue what it actually is.
"The prime minister argued that terrorism was the “most dramatic new threat” facing the UK in the 21st century, with organized crime, drug trafficking and illegal immigration all close behind."
So, 650 fuel truckers bringing the country to a near standstill isn't a threat then??
Glad to know that climate change, energy security, the massive increase in commodity prices/Inflation/recession are all knocked way down the list.
Phew, I was getting worried.
Mines is the one that's gone up in price 25% in the past 6 months, but as inflation is only 3% I'm all right....
Brown claimed, “It could be said that for too long we have used nineteenth century means to solve twenty first century problems. Instead we must have twenty first century methods to deal with twenty first century challenges.”
I bet his notes said “It could be said that for too long we have used 19th century means to solve 21st century problems. Instead we must have 12th century methods to deal with 21st century challenges.”
Certainly rolling back habeas corpus gets back to the start of the 13th...
I'd be intrigued to see where he's getting his definition of liberty from - it's definitely not Montesquieu, who argued against thought-crimes and for making it as easy as possible for the innocent to prove their innocence.
***"Brown said that citizens were not alarmed by the government's demands for biometric data, saying this was proved by the fact that “many people now have laptops activated by finger-scans.”"***
Well, he doesn't speak for me. I *AM* alarmed by the Government's demands for biometric data. And Brown's naivete regarding the issue is highlighted when he confuses the idea of verifying a fingerprint on a PC login with the much more intrusive storage of an actual fingerprint pattern on a (probably insecure) national database, data that will probably be sold at a profit to 3rd parties in much the same way the DVLA sells vehicle licence data to wheel clamping scumbags.
From the BBC News site:
***"He (Brown) said terrorists wanted to destroy British "freedoms" and that must not be allowed."***
Obviously the best way to stop terrorists destroying British "freedoms" is for the Government to destroy them first. I mean, you can't destroy something if its already lying in ruins, can you?
I see that Hazel Blears has helpfully created a timely reminder of just how far we can trust this bunch of clowns with our sensitive data:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7459579.stm
No Brown, Just *NO*!!!
Honestly - the vacuus thinking by our illustrious Government is beyond belief. So let's get this right - because some people are able to use fingerprint scanning to access their laptops we are all OK with this now? hmmm, there is a big difference between me using my fingerprints to lock a laptop and the state demanding them.
And to even consider that doing all of this, having ID cards, being watched and checked is reassuring and gives us back our liberty. So they have taken it then?
Just absolutely dire
Brown said that citizens were not alarmed by the government's demands for biometric data, saying this was proved by the fact that “many people now have laptops activated by finger-scans.”
That is one of the stupidest statements I've ever heard from Gordon Brown (Bush has done much better though!)
Scanning my fingerprint to access MY laptop is quite different to the government holding everything from my DNA profile to my Iris scans on a central database that, if this government's history with technology is anything to go by, will be completely insecure and operated by a bunch of monkeys who don't know their Security Roles from their SQL.
How long until BluRays are being mailed around the country containing enough biometric data to make current identity theft methods look amateurish?
Mine's the one with the gloves, reflective goggles, and the anti-DNA extracting needle lining.
"Brown said that citizens were not alarmed by the government's demands for biometric data, saying this was proved by the fact that “many people now have laptops activated by finger-scans.”"
I am not alarmed that my laptop knows my fingerprint.
I might be alarmed if a thief stole my laptop...and my finger.
I would be alarmed if the Government knew my fingerprint.
I would be very alarmed if government officials left the details in the back of a cab, or on a train, or on a CD somewhere.
I would be extremely alarmed if someone with a candle and gummi bear started manufacturing my finger print overlay and selling them on ebay.
Mr Brown is a pillock without mandate from the electorate to govern, and the first chance we get, he will get the boot.
... to protest outside parliament. Try and stop me and i'll get French on your ass!
Did anybody try get that protest to go down Whitehall when Bush was here? You know, the old "There's x000 of us, and sixteen of you coppers in shields. If this were France, you'd have a better chance of surviving unscathed against a charging rhinocerous."
Unfortulately, this isn't France. This is the United Kingdom of Apathy Britain.
The entire notion behind both modern Terrorism "investigation" and Peadophillia "investigation" (the bang em up and wait till they admit they did it/till we "find" the evidence we need) reminds me of the Guildford Four and Maguire Seven...
On top of that the government and general populations are obviously based on fear and are clearly showing all the most loathsome and discusting traits present in human society. The revenge, the fear, the panic, the prejeduice, the spite and vitriol.
The notion that what does it matter if a few peoples lives are ruined as long as people may be saved.
meh, one day I'll get out of here, till then, just hope I don't get a knock at the door.
The one counter-argument that I haven't heard to date is that whilst terrorists are using technology like cell-phones, computers, encryption etc - the police, MI5, MI6 should also have significantly improved methods for sifting through what is now a digital society.
If I can find anything on my 120GB hard-drive in seconds using spotlight, or millions of pages using Google et al, surely the police can also index an array of a thousands of hard-drives and apply some fairly simple search terms, or other means of making sense of the data?
As an analogy, if the haystack hiding the needle is so much bigger these days, surely our detection techniques have evolved somewhat from going through it straw by straw?
Government funded department to watch the Government.... Hmmm
So you have a 'mission statement' which proves you are independent, but, upper management is fully aware that if you have any findings which question the government your funding will be cut.
Look at the difference between the Data Commissioner and the IPCC's funding issues and you can see that its not a good idea to rock the boat...
Mines the one with the "you can trust me, it's Goverment Policy" logo
David Davis' resignation prompted me to pick up my copy of 1984 again last week. I read this bit earlier today which now seems quite fitting.
"It appeared there had been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grammes a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grammes a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it....
Was he, then, alone in the possession of a memory?"
Clearly, I'm not the only person who is feeling more than a little terrorised by the Government of OUR country.
I do not feel insecurity from Terrorists today and I didn't in the 70's, 80's and 90's when the terrorists were at work then.
I felt considerably more secure about my money and identity in the past than I do today and have NO faith that ID cards will do anything other than make me less secure. There is no balanced evidence for the governments case.
That these preposterous fools premote such nonsense is a waste of their effort, OUR taxes and is a diversion.
Just stop it, now, and start treating the taxpaying electorate with a little more respect and a little less contempt, please.
This post has been deleted by its author
"On CCTV, he argued that “it actually helps give them [citizens] back their liberty, the liberty to go about their lives with reassurance.”"
So, the citizens are "them". Does this mean that Brown does not think of himself as a citizen? Interesting!
"It helps give them back their liberty", this implies that their liberty was taken away. Although most citizens would argue that their liberty has been taken away, it is refreshing to hear a PM confess to the theft!
What a dumb bunny, he kicked himself in the nuts twice in one sentence.
PH because she knows what it is like to have her liberty given back.
An annual debate on anything is obviously a knee jerk intended to make the news and then be quietly forgotten. Nice to know that DD's resignation has had some impact at least, though.
As for a "freedom of expression audit" - God help us! I guess most people don't realise that they publish impact assessments on proposed legislation already. They're full of the sort of, ahem, "arguments" that ministers come out with when they're doing interviews on TV (i.e. spin). Balanced? Not. Independent? Not. Believable? Not.
How will a "freedom of expression audit" be any different?
I think the only real test we need of freedom of expression is for us all to start expressing ourselves freely and see how many of us get locked up. After you...
"After Gordon Brown was informed of the theft from Ms Blears' office, he told cabinet ministers to ask their civil servants to remind staff of the importance of enforcing procedures on the treatment of sensitive information."
A Minister f**ks up at her Constituency office & Brown blames Civil Servants. When are this Govt. going to take responsibility for their own actions.
A Man from Mars because Brown & his cronies are obviously on a different planet
2 questions Gordon...
1) How many people actually use that funny little touch pad that doesn't seem to do anything and that the IT dept just told me to ignore...
and
2) This is just the next standard model from work and it replaces the last one... do i get any say in the matter? No... so really the finger print scanner is there because Hewlett Packard thought it would be a good idea.
How can you take that as some kind of indication that i want to be on a DNA Database??
Every time a politician ignores our concerns and steam rollers over public opinion, another terrorist gets their wings... although maybe thats what our esteemed leader wants, so then they can say "we told you so".
I dont feel safe now (mainly from the state but also the hoodies and all those other boogey men)... this government has reduced our safety and continues to do so.
Bring back our civil liberties and people will have less to terrorist about!!
...that I could come up with against pretty much this entire article - or, to be more accurate, the person and situation that the article is informing us of.
Instead, I had a wank - given NuLabias record of actually paying attention to public opinion, it seemed like a more productive use of my time.
I can't even summon the energy up to list off the broken promises - some pretty fundamental ones - that have come up of late, never mind the rotten policies, infringements of civil rights [screw Magna Carta, just stuff that we used to take for granted], etc etc.
I swear to god NuLab won't be happy until we are all RFID'd up, in barcoded suits, living within 2 miles of our minimum wage job [no inflation problem if you don't have any money!] as happy little banana replublic serfs.
Not that I seriously think the Tories would be much better - there don't appear to be any real MPs, with things like ideals and morals, or public interest, any more - just career politicians desperate to hang onto the gravy train.
Steven R
Of course just because Parliament *debates* something doesn't mean that they are actually obliged to *DO* anything, especially when you have a bunch of arrogant, Big Brother, Nanny State pillocks like the current lot who are quite happy to guillotine debates which might ask awkward questions about the liberties they are taking away...
If I am not mistaken, Prime Minister Gordon Brown just spent an entire day, vehemently, pledging (to President George Bush) that the wishes of the British-people would, in no way, be allowed to interfere with British-government support for the Iraq War..?
Hhhmmm... Who does Brown work for again..?
Manufacturers are making laptops with fingerprint scanners - how many people would go to the effort and expense of requesting a scanner if it were not built onto the machine?
What a tosser - he thinks we're all stupid, unfortunately in the majority of cases he is correct.
> By Anonymous Coward
> Posted Tuesday 17th June 2008 14:49 GMT
>
> I really would like to know how our Squaddies feel everytime they return
> from overseas to see the freedoms and liberties that they are supposedly
> fighting/dying for (as Brown stated earlier this week infront of his master
> GWB) being systematically eroded in the name of
> Terrorism/Peodophiles/Drugs/"Over-Hyped-Fear-Of-The-Week".
Well I can tell you what one ex-serviceman thought. A very good friend of mine was so disgusted with what they were doing that he emigrated to Canada. I am only staying because 1) Canada is too cold for me and 2) I want to "Do my Bit" by trying to wake people up to this stuff before the doors finally close and it's all too late.
Are you happier? According to Brown here, people *like* CCTV. So since you have so many CCTV cameras everywhere you must be really really happy.
They're putting speakers on them now, soon you will be practically organismically happy, safe in the knowledge that if you are doing any wrong a voice from above can bark at you, 'you there cyclist in red shorts, wait at that traffic light', 'you there with the dog, don't let it pee near than man's tyre'.... joy oh joy.
Jacqui's busy making all sorts of personal choice stuff illegal, because you need protecting from yourself! The ultimate caring is your minister wants to impose her personal choices onto you because she is right and you are wrong. Be well citizen, sing with joy!
DNA lets us catch criminals, some people object because it is being used for minor stuff like catching people who spit. They are of course wrong. People are afraid of people who spit, it is anti social, whereas locking people up for spitting is social. Terrorism is also anti-social, so why do these people support Bin laden spitting?
Then we lock people up for 42 days, without charge, but only under exceptional circumstances. But 28 days was previously the 'exceptional circumstance', and now it becomes the 'norm', prior to that 14 days was the 'exceptional circumstance' but now it's routine, prior to that 3 days was the 'exceptional circumstance' now it's just the exception. Your government is trying it's best to protect you from bad people, who are so bad they need to be locked up, but not so bad that they need to be charged with a crime. Double plus joy citizen!
Soon we will be discussing the 'Return Directive' pushed by Britain. See Britain has a problem with immigrants from Eastern Europe, the newspapers blame 'immigrants' so the minister tries to twist that to 'non EU immigrants' and pushes a directive to detain illegal immigrants for up to 18 months. It won't fix it, but it will make nice headlines. Joy be with you.
****
It seems to me the ultimate purpose of life and therefore government is to make it's citizens happy. Britain is unhappy, you can argue that if we didn't have these things then Britain would be *more* unhappy, but the rest of the world is doing a lot better without them.
Whose in charge Bin laden or Brown?
I must have been asleep.
I had this weird dream that some years ago Parliament enacted the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIP Act) which basically allows anyone with government approval to spy on any 'citizen' (aka 'Subject').
Sleepwalking into a surveillance society?
No ... we've passed that point some time ago.
The notion of Innocent until proven Guilty went away a long time ago and now we have the loss of Habeas Corpus.
I, among many, have called Brown a Stalinist. I continue to call him Stalinist. All that are missing now are the pogroms.
***"What a tosser - he thinks we're all stupid, unfortunately in the majority of cases he is correct."***
Sadly that is very true. When Blair said Education, Education, Education, he ended up producing Educashun, Educashun, Educashun. and Indoctrination, Indoctrination, Indoctrination.
Keep them stupid and they'll believe whatever they are told.
Let's face it, we all know that the headline to this article should have read;
Fascist Twat Pisses On Your Shoes
And claims it's raining
Given the number of computers I've seen with fingerprint scanners I reckon their owners must make up a smaller proportion of the population than those who have some nudey pics of their girlfriend.
Does this mean we are all happy for the Government to force us to sign up to an amateur porn database?
Again the british governent is selling the people out with the CCTV, also the way they are keeping it out of the news the Phorm monitoring everything you do over the internet. ICO says it maybe legal. The illegal trials BT completed they will not investigate. Then there is the pdf released by Simon Watkin ICO page 13 is a very interesting read. All Gordons promises are just hot air to cloud the issue and shut up the public, do not trust him any more he is also the unelected prime minister!
Read more on the Communications Data Consultations on access and code of practice foir voluntary retention. Page 13. Government will stand with industry on any human rights challenge! that says it all
Survilence is coming in all forms CCTV, Internet interception, next it will be mobile phone taps and land line taps without warrents.....
How about a freedom investigation into MP's, their spending, their complete lack of care at what people think (referendum on europe, how our tax payers money is wasted, how we really feel about MP's, how much we really think parliament is a job for the boys and bears no direct bearing on what people actually need or care about in the real world.)
Or a large sliding scale from "free" to "owellian" at the two ends. Get rid of the london eye-sore and then the whole world can see.
Mines the one with "communism is the new new labour" on the back.
This is by Simon Watkin do a google search for communications data consultations on access and a code of practice for voluntary retention by Simon watkin this will give you the power point page 13 says it all...
http://www.fipr.org/sfs6/watkin.ppt
"Good evening, London. Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of every day routine- the security of the familiar, the tranquillity of repetition. I enjoy them as much as any bloke. But in the spirit of commemoration, thereby those important events of the past usually associated with someone's death or the end of some awful bloody struggle, a celebration of a nice holiday, I thought we could mark this November the 5th, a day that is sadly no longer remembered, by taking some time out of our daily lives to sit down and have a little chat. There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent."
"and insisting that public support for the ID card scheme remains strong, “despite years of exaggeration about its costs and its implications for liberty”.
How's that project going I wonder? I'm sure it must be on time and on budget, because politicians never lie about stuff like that...
I thought we were 'subjects' not citizens. I'd prefer to be the former given what the latter implies these days.
"He also said the government was considering subjecting all new UK legislation to something called a “freedom of expression audit”."
What about the existing nonsense already in place?
As usual, Scott Adams already lead the way with a Dilbert cartoon. Specifically, one in which Dilbert is interviewing a candidate who asks him the question: "Why do you have to specifically use the phrase 'We enable our employees to feel empowered'?"
Double speak ++good.
Sorry to break it to you guys, we represent perhaps a 1% demographic of people who:
A) Are well informed.
B) Don't automatically believe the hype.
C) Have the intelligence to form opinions based on fact.
D) Have the forsight to realize that what we allow the Gov to do today, has much more of an impact on the future generations than it will ever have on us.
E) That when those millions fought and died for this country, it wasn't to prove a point to Hitler, it was to preserve the very freedoms that NuLabour have taken from us.
The other 99% of the country (and it's rising every day) either don't care or don't understand. If you can keep people busy fighting each other, suing each other, or desperatly looking for that next pay check, then they'll be too busy to notice as they lose what is truly important.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Gov doesn't want an intelligent population, they want livestock.
Labour have killed our National Identity. Don't let them bring it back as a register.
(for those that remember his song).
I have a laptop with one of those annoying fingerprint scanners on it. It keeps popping up boxes complaining that it couldn't read my finger print if I rest my hand on it so I finally got annoyed enough to go look up how to disable the damn thing.
Anyone remember the chap with the Mercedes where the crooks just chopped his finger off and used it? Or the Mythbusters episode where they totally fooled a fingerprint lock?
I think we need a steaming turd icon.
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