Windows XP given additional resuscitation

Looks like the Small, Cheap Computer™ craze has yet again broken Microsoft's nerve to completely kill off Windows XP. Following the software giant's concession to extend the life of XP Home for the sub-notebook market until 2010, Microsoft is today granting the same reprieve for low-cost desktop PCs too. Microsoft has been …

[Nuno]

what a shame!

It really is a shame that a company trashes an operating system just for sake of selling a new one. Even a worse and lessen fit one. If Vista was any better that XP, why would not people willingly choose to buy it? We could even accept that MS didn't want to support both operating systems, but it doesn't apply anymore, since they will need to support it until 2010... Shame on you MS!!!

[Dick Emery]

It's because...

...of what is happening with hardware these days. You now don't need the biggest and fastest system to handle 'most' activities including playing back high definition video. The top of the range systems are aimed squarely at power users. People who need that extra speed for intensive calculations, video editing and encoding or gaming.

For everyone else a bog standard PC is perfectly adequate and runs XP at a useable speed. Why do we need a new bloaty OS when the one we have works just fine? Until I see something groundbreaking enough to warrant an upgrade I see no reason to 'upgrade' to Vista.

[James Pickett]

Oh yeah?

"working with more than 20 OEMs"

Twisting their arms and getting them in a headlock, more likely. I can see them giving away XP rather than let Linux in. If only the OEMs realised that the Beast needs them more than they need XP...

[Maurice Tate]

MS is reviving XP?

Couldn't be because Vista is so craptacular, could it? Naw, didn't think so...

[Sampler]

Why not an Ultra Basic Vista?

They already have shedloads of versions so one more wouldn't hurt - with most of the crap stripped out so it was basically XP in nature and resources but at least Vista in name, that way they wouldn't get the negative marketing or the headache of officially supporting XP for a couple more years.

Or even Vista CE...

p.s. both of the above are copyright, MS you will need to contact me if you want to use them =p

[J]

Too bad...

...that MS is doing this. Postpones the end of the Windows empire, which is bad.

[Treacle]

2012 A.D.

Windows XP Professional, Mark III, SP19

Mine'll be the one with the Zip disk in the pocket.

[Tigre Marino]

Fantastic

Fantastic that the Good Old XP is keeping along. Vista is bad, slow, DRM-ridden, and rotten.

But how will XP Home work with processors like the new Atom with 2 cores? AFAIK Windows XP Home will only work in uniprocessor mode :|

[ceebee]

oh the fun ...

Well at least if XP supported and availability is being extended it will mean that drivers and security patches will continue to be released.

Maybe even some things like IE8 (eeek) or the dreaded DirectX 10 maybe ulitmately back ported to properly support XP.

And while Vista maybe a disaster for MS ...I am sure Windows7 will not handle the low end either so standby for XP for the next 5 years!

[William Lee]

Smartest Move MS Made Yet

Linux is eating Vista in our market. XP is what people know.

[Robert Lee]

Are they really listening ?

"Or as Microsoft explains the story at the Computex expo in Taipei, customers were demanding Windows on the low-devices because it is familiar to them."

Everyone is demanding XP on their desktop too ? but is MS listening ? NO !!!!

They only put XP on the baby ones because the crap Vista wont even run on them, and not having XP just driving them to Linux, so its not they were listening, just to stop a Linux train from running on its tracks.

[Pete Dixon]

Obligatory Linux comment

Having switched a couple of months ago from XP to Linux I can totally vouch for Linux superiority. The _only_ reason XP has any reason to exist is because of the eco-system concern where essential apps are only available on MS' platform. It was an easy switch, loving it.

[Moss Icely Spaceport]

It's just a matter of some new marketing:

XP = Vista Lite!

[Is that whale song I can hear...?]

[Anonymous Coward]

Ubuntu

Where's the Ubuntu Angle?

Paris Hilton, because even Paris Knows that Vista isn't the best operating system Microsoft have ever produced and that Ubuntu 8.04LTS is the best all round operating system these days.

[Chris Branch]

@Tigre

XP Home is uniprocessor, but there's no limit on cores that single processor can have (AFAIK, I know it's fine for dual core).

[KenBW2]

"Microsoft is today granting the same reprieve for low-cost desktop PCs too"

That'll be down to that desktop eee then.

First they ignore us, then they laugh at us, then they fight us

Then we win

XP can only go on for so long - and Windows 7 won't be getting any more lightweght

[Anton Ivanov]

AMD does need to wait and see, it has one

As anyone who has had to play with a recent Geode can testify AMD does not need to "develop" such a chip. It already has one.

Geode now has nearly all MMX and FPU "checklist items of importance" grafted from Athlons and can deliver comparable performance to Intel and Via best offerings. All of this within 2-5W thermal envelope. It is already used in thin clients and some custom small PC designs instead of Via. I have a recent HP thin client using it and its performance is way higher than the Asus EE (pre-Atom) or the Via subnotebook platform.

What AMD is lacking however is the in-house support for the rest of the platform. Geode systems are being shipped with SiS instead of AMD/Ati. IIRC some of the ATI offerings should be compatible with it so getting a small cheap computer (TM) platform together for AMD is a question of an engineer sitting down with a CAD system and a spreadsheet for an afternoon. Worst case scenario an agreement with SiS can do the trick.

Now, why it does not want to do it is a different matter.

[Highlander]

@Tigre Marino

XP Home manages quite well to see both cores in my Pentium D 805 system. I don't think that there will be much of an issue in a dual core system running XP Home.

[Highlander]

XP has it's reprive...

I can see this going somewhere that MS will not like.

How exactly will MS prevent XP from being loaded on and sold with any desktop now that they have re-opened the XP license book for low cost desktops?

Given how low cost some of the low end Intel CPUs and motherboards are these days, you can easily throw together a mini PC for a couple of hundred dollars. I can't see MS doing anything to spike the system to prevent it from loading on other hardware, that would be very anti-competetive and land them in hot water.

How long before the big box shifters start shippig consumer PCs with XP again? Wonder how many Vista licenses will be sold now.

[Stuart Van Onselen]

Ultimate non-modular

I agree with ceebee: I'd love to see how Windows 7 is going to support ultra-light PCs any better than Vista does. Or is MS once again hoping that improved technology will allow cheap-and-light machines to handle Vista/Win7 by then?

The problem is that the Windows core is, by design, a huge, ugly, monolithic monstrosity. With no built-in modularity, it becomes damned difficult to make a version "with most of the crap stripped out" without accidentally breaking something else, and making support so much more difficult.

Now even Linux is not a modern* micro-core design, but it's still much more modular and adaptable, stretching from hand-helds to super-computers. If MS keep dropping the ball like they have with Vista, then Linux has a VERY bright future ahead of it.

*) For "modern", read "largely academic and non-commercial". It's such a shame that the "real world" lags so far behind academia, except for "niche" systems like Plan 9. Although the economic prerogatives of backwards-compatibility make this inevitable.

[The man not from delmonte]

Spin

I love the marketing spin in this. So people want XP for low end computers that don't run Vista well? Last time I checked, it was mostly businesses and techies that wanted to stick with XP on ALL machines regardless of spec because of the complete ballache that Vista can be trying to get it to work with everything on the same network.

[David Rollinson]

Windows 7

I don't think the low-cost PC market is going to go away anytime soon; Microsoft have to consider this in the design of Windows 7 and ensure that their next O/S is able to function properly on low-power hardware, otherwise they'll be back in the same scenario of hardware manufacturers being forced to ship linux.

[Robert Harrison]

The Challenge

Dick Emery: "For everyone else a bog standard PC is perfectly adequate and runs XP at a useable speed. Why do we need a new bloaty OS when the one we have works just fine? Until I see something groundbreaking enough to warrant an upgrade I see no reason to 'upgrade' to Vista."

I second that. Modern computing is approaching 40 years, maybe 50 even 60 years old it's time to pause and take stock of where we are. On the hardware side we largely still have the beige box. Ok so we've put fancy blue LEDs on the outside and tarted the chassis up a bit but its still a clunky box.

On the software side, the jaw dropping moment for me will be when the future computer:

- Boots near instantaneously into a usable desktop (and that doesn't include a desktop that is displayed but unusable whilst you wait for the services to load)

- Doesn't need to be rebooted after updates, updates should be quick and painless.

- Frees you from the worry about spyware and virus issues to the point that system resources are not having to be consumed even by an embedded antivirus system in the background.

- Abstracts the user interface in some nice way such that you literally have links to: Email/IM, Web, Games, Office, Media and that's about it. Obviously a server edition of this future computer would have additional links.

- Installation of a game package should be as easy as drag and drop. Uninstall likewise, and the uninstall should remove *everything*, no cruft. Remember, you the user just want to use the computer not have to manage it as well.

- Manages your documents such that you can hierarchical store them how you see fit (all in one sensible location on the future computer, not in the root drive, not in my documents, etc, etc) but that they are replicated so you can get to them from anywhere in the world, and they are secured.

- Handles as many different media formats as possible all abstracted from you the user. If media conversion is necessary it should be as simple as renaming the file whilst maintaining aspect ratio, sound quality, etc etc.

- Doesn't crash or lock up or suddenly slow down for no explicable reason. Yes yes this is a tough one, but this is the ideal. If you can solve this you can retire immediately, somewhere hot, with a nice beach.

If such a desktop system were to come on the market I, probably like most people, would be willing to part with a lot of good money for it.

Disclaimer: most of the criticism in the above points could apply equally to Linux, Windows, Mac, etc.

Here's hoping anyway...

[Joe K]

Not just CPU power

This is what happens when you price a new OS as more expensive than the computers that will be running it!

[Scott Mckenzie]

Yuk

I welcome this if we can get reasonable business machines with it on... i am busting my nuts ensuring that all machines in my office stick with XP, i've not yet had a good experience with Vista... though i do like it as it has done wonders for OS X!

[Anonymous Coward]

2001 called...

...it wants its OS back.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice...

...now if we can just convince Dell to stop charging an extra 50 quid for the privilege of having an "outdated" operating system installed, the World will be back to rights (then again, they probably got Vista at a major discount just to shift a few copies...).

[Mark]

XP still off the radar

I won't use XP because I read the EULA. I can't agree to that pile of shite! I own my computer. I don't give MS carte blanche to remove, install and inspect MY stuff on my computer. I don't agree to let it phone home. I do not agree to having it linked to one OEM machine (which was the issue with Win9x but with activation, they can refuse to let it install).

So I will not use and agree to the XP EULA. It's still off the radar.

Maybe when they turn off product activation (as they said they would when activation came out for XP, but then again, I'm assuming they will do what they said to get activation accepted).

[Greg]

@Tigre

As far as I know mate, all versions of XP will handle multi-core processors. x64 is better at it than x32, but they'll all have a crack at it. Standard XP licence has always been for "1-2 processors" as far as I know, so you should be good at least up to dual core. x64 handles my dual-dual-core (twin Opteron) box very nicely indeed.

[Greg]

@Mark

Software firewall mate. I just block all the Windows services from phoning home.

If someone makes a copy of Linux that looks and functions pretty much like XP (and I know there are ones that are getting pretty darned close), that's it for the ultra-mobiles and low end I-just-want-it-to-work PCs. The second MS withdraw XP that entire sector will fall to Linux. Windows Vista and 7 won't be able to run on that sort of hardware for a good few years yet - perhaps not even 2010.

Could this be the beginning of the beginning?

[Gilbert Wham]

@ Robert Harrison

"Boots near instantaneously into a usable desktop (and that doesn't include a desktop that is displayed but unusable whilst you wait for the services to load)"

Atari ST.

[Anonymous Coward]

@ Robert Harrison

Interestingly various of the points you raised in a desirable system match what Amiga OS from 2.0-3.9 offered (not sure re OS 4.0), it didn't quite have the stability issue down pat, but various of the other issues you mentioned its always had including near instant boot up times, ability to immediately power off (no shut down), drag n drop install of apps, install updates without rebooting, handling plenty of media formats. It had viruses too, but never spyware, but yeah on a modern system using the Intel community version (AROS) it makes even Linux seem slow!

[Elmer Phud]

@ highlander

The box shifters have already seen the light - it used to be that you could only get a box with Vistaaargh on it, then they offered XP Home as OEM alternative - not installed with no sign of XP Pro, now they are offering XP Pro as either OEM or pre-installed.

Oh, and no to XP being 'Vista Lite' - they'll just tell us that the sales of Vista soared and how much people liked it.

[spegru]

MS defends itself - no surprise

It's been obvious to me at least, that MS would revive XP to fend off Linux.

It will probably work to some extent for a while too.

However MS has serious problems as this concept affects Office too.

Do you think that people will be happy to pay 200 for Office on their Small Cheap PC? I don't think so. So either MS undermnes its own business or they give the business to Openoffice.org

Then there is the fact that XP is old old old. So either they continue to develop it (undermining Vista) or the new Linuxes such as Ubuntu will steal the market from MS anyway.

MS are in a Catch 22 position, and the only way is down.

Opensource will win this market - but it will take a few years

MS needs to diversify to survive in the medium/long term - and they probably need to adopt opensource themselves

[Test Man]

No surprise really

Similar situation with Windows 98/Me back in the day. Microsoft had to extend the life of it by quite a few years because there was still a substantial amount of people who used it, especially in developing countries. Same with XP now. Nothing to do with how "poor" Vista is perceived by certain MS-haters, or those same people would also be hating on XP too seeing as it was in the same position years ago (as I've explained earlier).

[Chika]

@spegru

"Then there is the fact that XP is old old old."

Be very careful about this, as you are close to falling for the kind of ploy that MS wants you to. XP may well be old, but nowhere near as old as some of the stuff I still use. RISC OS 4 isn't any spring chicken, nor is Windows 98SE but I still use them both because they do what I want them to. If the same can be said for XP, then "upgrading" is a pointless exercise.

There has been too much of this "upgrade or die" policy from MS and others, and it's us farties that get hit in the wallet every time. Therefore, instead of trying to re-invent the wheel every few years, MS should concentrate on getting it right with what they have. Us farties have finally woken up to the game they are playing, and this lifespan extension is, as far as I can see, an admission that what we are doing is hitting MS in their own wallet!

[Mark]

Re: No surprise really

However, the difference now is that activations must continue to be honoured. Win9x didn't need activation and there were no bugfixes, so continuing to support it was minimal effort.

Not so any more.

[Mark]

Re: Software firewall

True, Greg. As long as you don't trust the built-in firewall. Also, NAV (I think) said about the US government keylogger that they weren't going to block it. Huge outcry, but since the software is closed, this doesn't *necessarily* mean anything.

Use a cheap linux box as a firewall, log packets and cache the interweb. Reduces your risk and the cost of your internet connection.

[Anonymous Coward]

@ Robert Harrison, Gilbert Wham et al re:boot speed

Way back in 1999 I was millennium bug fixing stuff for a large county council based somewhere in Nottinghamshire, who shall remain nameless.

During times we were'nt patching the Netware 3.12 boxes to compliance we tended to install computers in schools, firestations, libraries and similar county places.

As the hardware was quite new, top end PII, bottom end PIII (all around 500MHz IIRC) but the only OS properly tested and accepted by the county was Windows 3.11 the startup process was something like:

POSTDOSWindows

In a few small seconds. The POST took longer than loading Windows.

I have to say these days I never turn my computer off anyway so I don't worry about startup times as it is about as long as it takes me to switch the monitor on and move the mouse.

[Kevin Bailey]

@ Robert Harrison

- Boots near instantaneously into a usable desktop (and that doesn't include a desktop that is displayed but unusable whilst you wait for the services to load)

Check.

Ubuntu may need a reboot after a 6 months upgrade - but can suspend/restart in seconds.

- Doesn't need to be rebooted after updates, updates should be quick and painless.

Check.

Ubuntu doesn't always need a reboot after an upgrade let alone updates. Also, ALL software on the system is included in the updates - spreadsheets, browsers, library files, OS files, - everything.

MS updaets the OS, Macs update the OS and most Apple software - Ubuntu updates ALL software.

- Frees you from the worry about spyware and virus issues to the point that system resources are not having to be consumed even by an embedded antivirus system in the background.

Check.

- Abstracts the user interface in some nice way such that you literally have links to: Email/IM, Web, Games, Office, Media and that's about it. Obviously a server edition of this future computer would have additional links.

Check.

Ubuntu's default Gnome window manager is a great clean interface.

- Installation of a game package should be as easy as drag and drop. Uninstall likewise, and the uninstall should remove *everything*, no cruft. Remember, you the user just want to use the computer not have to manage it as well.

Check.

Easier than drag and drop - just select tick box next to it on list in Add/Remove programs.

- Manages your documents such that you can hierarchical store them how you see fit (all in one sensible location on the future computer, not in the root drive, not in my documents, etc, etc) but that they are replicated so you can get to them from anywhere in the world, and they are secured.

Check.

Shared Documents can be accessed from the Place menu option. Depends on how you want it set up but we have a central server for docs and a folder on my desktop is connected straight to it.

- Handles as many different media formats as possible all abstracted from you the user. If media conversion is necessary it should be as simple as renaming the file whilst maintaining aspect ratio, sound quality, etc etc.

Check.

Ubuntu uses much cleverer stuff than (ha ha) file extensions. All media formats I've tried have been handled automatically.

- Doesn't crash or lock up or suddenly slow down for no explicable reason. Yes yes this is a tough one, but this is the ideal. If you can solve this you can retire immediately, somewhere hot, with a nice beach.

Check.

Easy one. Unix based so crashing doesn't really happen.

If such a desktop system were to come on the market I, probably like most people, would be willing to part with a lot of good money for it.

Don't need to - Ubuntu 8.04 is here for free.

Try it - what have you got to lose - I think you'll be shocked at how good it is compared to MS products.

Of course - you might have to admit that you're behind the curve a bit - but you'll still be a relatively early adopter.

Also, I'm not as experienced with Mac's but I think most of the points I've made apply to Mac's as well.

[Gordon Fecyk]

How to make XP behave like Vista

Ya know, after reading that XP is going to be available for "low end" PCs, I wondered just how different Vista is from XP, aside from the Aero interface.

Let's see... we have:

* DRM in Windows Media Player 9 and 11

* Windows Desktop Search

* Three different versions of the .NET framework

* Internet Explorer 7

* Windows Defender anti-spyware

* Windows Firewall

* And, if you dare, even a form of User Account Control (Run As...)

Aren't these the things everyone here is complaining about? Load all of these things onto a bog standard XP machine, and you have an XP that's just as bloated as Vista.

Mind you, I can make Vista work on a 512 MB machine quite comfortably. I just have to avoid unwanted software, which is something I do second-nature.

"I'd love to see how Windows 7 is going to support ultra-light PCs any better than Vista does..."

Think, "Windows Core Server 2008." That's how.

[C]

@Software firewalls

"Software firewall mate. I just block all the Windows services from phoning home."

I'm not sure if you're aware, but using a software firewall is like protecting a hen-house by giving one of the hens dark glasses, billy club, and a trench coat. Dirty looks are optional.

As the firewalls from Symantec, McAfee, MS, and atleast a few others that are *known* let some obscure NSA traffic into and out of the computer with ZERO notification or impedance. They are pretty much useless, I've seen MANY spy ware infested XP machines that had to be formatted because nothing could clean them, with the MS or Symantec firewall on the whole time.

MY short list of alternatives 1) a hosts file from MVPS.org and then add some MS domains to it. 2) a Linux firewall on an older box, with said hosts file. 3) just use Linux .. my preference BTW is either PCLinuxOS 2008, or Debian Etch 4.0r3 also released in 2008.

<blatant plug>

PCLinuxOS 2008 even has eye candy, transparency that looks good is on by default and is easily turned off, 3D desktops can also be turned on using slimmer hardware than the whole "Vista Capable" will ever settle for. *Easiest configuration ever*, control panel icon right on the desktop. Also has many of the perks that Ubuntu users enjoy, I like it cuz I CAN log on as root if I choose :-p

</blatant plug>

[Astarte]

MS Claims 'Reduction in Greenhouse Gasses'

.

XP fan here.

I'm not sure about the rights and wrongs of false advertising claims by American companies such as Microsoft but does anyone really believe Microsoft’s claim that –

"Every 10 PCs that switch over to Windows Vista is the equivalent of taking an automobile off the road, in terms of greenhouse gasses"

is conscionable?

Who are they trying to convince? What about the consequences of having to recycle the hardware dump triggered by the need to buy better, faster, bigger and more power-hungry systems just to do essentially the same job? I won’t even mention the energy wasted in earning the extra cash needed to buy the thing. OK, the old saying ‘You pays your money and you takes you choice’ is one thing but being forced to pay for unnecessary or unwanted 'features’ is no more than simple ransom, robbery or hijacking.

They are talking to the wrong people. The USA has about 2 cars per person (statistically) and MS is telling us to buy Vista to keep the greenhouse gas emissions down. WARNING: Creditability failure confirmed!

If MS want to try the ‘Believe me I’m believable’ line maybe they should stick a ‘Bio’ label on the Vista boxes and logos – sure to get the green (as in immature or gullible) punters coming.

WALK (What a Load of Krap - especially Americanised to protect proper English).

BTW I’m really, really impressed that Vista now supports 77,000 printers, cameras, speakers and other devices. I have just a few but whenever I add something new the supplier’s default recommendation is usually “Check for the latest drivers” etc.

[Slaine]

Meanwhile, in a dirty shed behind Redmond...

Staff: Look, if we don't keep supporting XP we are toast

BillG: But I want the whole world to run on Vista

Staff: You don't get it Bill, if we keep pushing Vista, we're doomed. Even the pre-installed machines are getting wiped in favour of anything but Vista

BillG: Noooo - it's my life's work, all those security holes for me to browse in my retirement

Staff: Look mate - your outta here in 3 weeks - just piss off and let us try to salvage something from this mess.

[Paul]

XP forever?

"When the XP home licensing extension expires in 2010, Microsoft has said the successor to Vista (Windows 7), will already be in the hands of consumers."

Which given Microsoft's track record on bloat, will be an even bigger resource pig than Vista, even if it's a better product overall.

Meanwhile. many users will continue to be happy with specs that aren't capable of running Vista or it's successor. Leaving XP to stand in the gap, or Linux to take over.

That leaves Microsoft with some uncomfortable options to choose from:

1. Drop XP, cede the low-end market to Linux and hope that it stays there. I can't see them doing that, somehow, because the last thing they need is for average consumers to realize that you *don't* need Windows after all.

2. Make a cut-down Windows 7 version which is capable of running on low-end gear. I'd put longer odds on that than I would on Red Rum winning the next Grand National from beyond the grave. I don't think they know how...

3. Continue extending XP's lifespan until the minimum comfortable spec anyone will buy rises to meet Vista Basic's needs. Which might be never, given the success of cut-down systems like the Eee.

They've bet the farm on computer users continuing to demand bigger, faster, more powerful systems, but maybe that wasn't such a good move after all.

[Mark]

"Then there is the fact that XP is old old old."

But that doesn't stop it working.

What about XP will not work in this new Digital Age? DRM not built in to the OS? Well, that's not the OS's fault. WMP10 on XP still has DRM (for all the good it does).

Does it run games?

Yes.

Does it handle all the families of hardware out there?

Yes.

Does it have multiple accounts so you can share the home computer with your family?

Yes.

So what about XP makes it no longer suitable for use?

Nothing is my intimation.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Ubuntu

(spit take)

Can someone explain to this AC (me) what is so special about Ubuntu?

I've played around with a fair number of linux distros (Fedora, RHEL 3/4/5, Slackware, Debian, etc.) and I found Ubuntu to be absolutely underwhelming.

Considering how much it is talked up, I really thought there would be, I dunno - something special about it?

[Chika]

re: @Ubuntu

I suspect that the only thing that puts Ubuntu in the spotlight is its fans. Like you, I've used quite a few distros and find that the difference between them can be less than impressive depending on what you are looking for.

On the other hand, some distros are often tailored for a specific market, something that I suspect is true of Ubuntu. I'll leave it for you to decide which market that might be.

[Claire Rand]

Key Selling Points...

two points, firstyl open souce won't win this microsoft will, with windows, but not the way it currently is. to compete with linux windows will be cheaper, much cheaper. ditto office for 'home' usage, business license will still be expensive but the 'non commercial' usage will be cheap enough to effectivly keep linux as a specialists system. drop the price to similar to an OS X system, sub £100 and they have it more or less nailed.

second point. Assume I have a fully working XP system, on a machine powerful enough to run vista without any significant (to me) concerns...

sell me vista. *whats in it for me* to upgrade exactly? what will *I* be able to do that I can't do now? and more to the point, what will I be able to do thats *worth* the cost of upgrading (ignore the time taken etc, thats life with computers these days, just the financial cost).

the EULA etc are essentially not relevent, there is no 'business case' for a home user to upgrade. DX10? bwah, get a console, the DRM at least generally works there.

personally I use a mac at home, and a windows machine for work. the mac is a better 'platform' in many ways, but windows is generally better at getting things done due to the software. pays ya money etc.

but if microsoft want to 'win' they need to drop the price of windows so using it or not becomes a non issue, drop all the different versions, have *one* (ok maybe a 32 and 64 bit version, but on the same disc with an installer that uses the correct one). sell add-ons by all means, and by all means keep the OS 'light' but make it workable and it will be used and sell.

license office for non commercial usage and open office is more or less dead in the water.

but to date *no one* has pointed out exactly what I get for my £x when I upgrade that makes it worth my money to do it. what exactly is the key selling point here?

[Sampler]

@ C

"a hosts file from MVPS.org and then add some MS domains to it."

Host files ignore MS domains - try it :D

[Anonymous Coward]

@ Robert Harrison

"- Doesn't crash or lock up or suddenly slow down for no explicable reason. Yes yes this is a tough one, but this is the ideal. If you can solve this you can retire immediately, somewhere hot, with a nice beach."

Erm nope, you've just put the entire IT support industry on income support (including yourself) as there's no need to hire departments to answer the phone with the response "have you tried restarting it?"

[Mark]

"Vista now supports 77,000 printers, cameras, ..."

Aye, just for printers:

ESC P/2 : all Epsom printers

PCL5/6: all HP printers, most laser printers

Postscript 2/3: all high-end printers

and often (apart from Windows GDI printers) either PCL 5 or ESC P/2 is supported on Samsung, Kyocera, and so on. They may not have all the features (though that's unlikely) but that's support.

Few hundred there, but they're "free".

Cameras:

MASS storage USB: almost all cameras now

Windows Picture Transfer: lots of cameras (and heck, this isn't windows supporting, it's the hardware supporting windows...)

So all cameras pretty much.

speakers:

??? What, some sort of voltage thingy that is specific to Windows capable speakers?

Other devices:

Well, given they claim support for speakers, this could include devices such as "Desk". "Office furniture". "Microsoft".

So ignoring the odd last two (unspecific and silly), they have a support of (rough estimate) about 400 printers and 1,000 cameras just by supporting five protocols:

ESC P/2

PCL

Postscript

WPT

USB Mass storage

Forgive me if I'm underwhelmed.

[Robert Harrison]

@Jaowon

"...as there's no need to hire departments to answer the phone with the response "have you tried restarting it?""

You actually want those kind of phone calls? ;o)

I'd get my coat but I can't find where in the manual it tells me how to do it.

[alistair millington]

I like M$ when they backtrack. Without trying to look sheepish.

They didn't make a blunder with Vista because people were buying super charged PC's with tons of kit for answering email. That fact it was rubbish and bloated was hidden by the beefed up super laptops that people were buying.

But people wised up, prices and eco friendly thinking kicked in and Vista has no place in a small PC market. It can't run on small 4 GB SSD with little ram and no integrated AGP's, XP can.

...and no way could M$ lose to linux. As people would then think they could put it on their desktops instead of Vista. If it runs on the laptops why shouldn't they?

Long live astute buyers of Pc's and clever engineers making things small and compact.

[Steve Barnes]

@Kevin Bailey

Well, that's not all quite true is it.

The fact is that although Ubuntu may be great, customisable, not DRM'ed to the eyeballs, free, etc etc. NO-ONE can deny the fact (well they can and do, but they are tech geeks) that it is ridiculously difficult to use for a novice PC User! - which is where Windows wins!

40 year old builder & father of 3 (eg, like my friend's dad) walks into a PC shop to buy a PC for basic word processing, email, internet, printing, music, dvd's etc, - is he going to choose Windows or Linux? Of course windows! Can you seriously imagine him playing with the terminal and trying to install programs like that?! No way! He's going to go to download.com on his Windows XP machine, download an .exe, double click it and let the install-shield wizard do it for him. obviously.

for the record, i have 2 desktops, one with xp home, the other with ububtu 7 (not gone to 8 yet) - and i hate vista - xp i can live with. i would love to see ubuntu take off, and with openoffice, firefox, etc, it's starting to penetrate the mainstream, but what the diehard linux tech boys dont understand is that it needs to be PISS EASY ti use for the novice users if it wants to dominate.

[Steven]

Damn...

I was hoping to see XP get the boot soon.

Not because I'm anti MS, but because I'm pro Vista!

I've been using Vista for almost a year now with no problems (and I use my computer a LOT). Infact I had more problems with XP, especially in its infancy. Everyone seems to forget how when XP was released it was slated, but now it's suddenly all things wonderful.

The sooner they axe XP and people move to Vista and actually USE it before slating it the better IMO.

[Mark Land]

software firewall and hosts file

I have done some experiments to block windows update on XP and I can tell you that blocking the update Url in hosts file does not work, MS bypasses it as the IP addresses are hard coded in the DLL. I blocked mine on the ADSL router.

But now I use a Mac and VMWare fusion (for ie6 testing of my websites)

for @ Robert Harrison, yes OS X does tick most/all of the points you make. I have not tried Linux for a while, i used to develop on it, oh correction, i use it as my web server!

I think its ironic that I graduated in Computer science in the 80s using BSD Unix on VAX, and that's pretty much what OS X uses today and Linux is not far off the same technology. We did not ahve PC's back then, the only Windows was Sun Solaris workstation. It's funny that Vista is touted as new tech, and yet the multi-user systems i was using at Uni in 1984 are far in advance of that rubbish.

[Robert Harrison]

@Kevin Bailey

@Kevin Bailey

I hate to break it to you, but Ubuntu just isn't there yet. It certainly didn't make my jaw drop when I tried it last. Note that I've been running Debian 'etch' for several years now, previously upgraded from 'sarge'. I'm in the unfortunate position of having run this system for so long that I cannot remember all of the setup I performed for web server, LDAP, Samba, mail, etc etc.

Anyway:

- Boots near instantaneously into a usable desktop (and that doesn't include a desktop that is displayed but unusable whilst you wait for the services to load)

-Check.

No, unless you have a significantly powerful system with an init.d starting asynchronously I doubt that you get a near instantaneous startup. Asynchronous startup still requires certain service dependencies to be met, file systems to be mounted, so its still not going to be that fast. Suspend may be a suitable option, as you say, although you've still got a memory image to load from disk.

"Ubuntu doesn't always need a reboot after an upgrade let alone updates. Also, ALL software on the system is included in the updates - spreadsheets, browsers, library files, OS files, - everything.

MS updaets the OS, Macs update the OS and most Apple software - Ubuntu updates ALL software."

No, updates still need to be downloaded, dependencies met, packages installed and services restarted. What about new kernel images? Don't get me wrong I still currently believe that the .deb blows most other offerings out of the water in terms of dependency checking and sophisticated pre-install post-install scripts, but a bug still potentially leaves cruft. The other problem is config files getting blated on updates, often because its a major new release version or simply because of a badly structured install. Anyway, there is still pain in this process.

- Frees you from the worry about spyware and virus issues to the point that system resources are not having to be consumed even by an embedded antivirus system in the background.

-Check.

Maybe, maybe not. I have to reiterate the tired old argument that Linux-based systems have not particularly gained the interest of hackers/virus writers/etc yet. As usual, we'll see what happens when the desktop share has gained a few %.

- Abstracts the user interface in some nice way such that you literally have links to: Email/IM, Web, Games, Office, Media and that's about it. Obviously a server edition of this future computer would have additional links.

-Check.

"Ubuntu's default Gnome window manager is a great clean interface."

Well..... It's alright, it's very similar to the Windows desktop concept is it not? Ok, that concept has been copied from previous desktop concepts and so on and so on. But, even on Ubuntu, you still get the deluge of menus and menu options, it's still easy to accidentally wipe out a panel and it's still frustrating if, when presented with all the configuration possibilities that Gnome presents you, you still can't configure the layout quite how you want, or find the right Panel applet to install. The future computer needs to simplify all this possibly, dare I say it, remove some of the flexibility that we have to admit that we just don't need.

- Installation of a game package should be as easy as drag and drop. Uninstall likewise, and the uninstall should remove *everything*, no cruft. Remember, you the user just want to use the computer not have to manage it as well.

-Check.

"Easier than drag and drop - just select tick box next to it on list in Add/Remove programs."

Assuming of course your package repositories are set up correctly and that dependencies are met. See above. Again there is detail creeping through the abstraction that I'm sure the likes of you and me can deal with, but why should we have to?

- Manages your documents such that you can hierarchical store them how you see fit (all in one sensible location on the future computer, not in the root drive, not in my documents, etc, etc) but that they are replicated so you can get to them from anywhere in the world, and they are secured.

-Check.

"Shared Documents can be accessed from the Place menu option. Depends on how you want it set up but we have a central server for docs and a folder on my desktop is connected straight to it."

And is that folder automatically cached when off-line and resynchronised? Can you log in to a computer on the other side of the world and just click on a link to access your documents as if they were local, safe in the knowledge that they're encrypted and inaccessible to anyone but you and permitted third parties? The whole reason we have great security cock-ups, CDs lost in the post, etc is because you can't at the moment accomplish the above in a couple of clicks.

- Handles as many different media formats as possible all abstracted from you the user. If media conversion is necessary it should be as simple as renaming the file whilst maintaining aspect ratio, sound quality, etc etc.

-Check.

"Ubuntu uses much cleverer stuff than (ha ha) file extensions. All media formats I've tried have been handled automatically."

No. What about ones it doesn't recognise, does it seamlessly pull down a codec for the job? Can other users then use this codec? What about the cruft factor? The last time I checked even on Linux, conversion is still a slow and painful process. And conversion will still be necessary for a long time while legacy systems interact with this future computer. You didn't answer my requirement on this one.

- Doesn't crash or lock up or suddenly slow down for no explicable reason. Yes yes this is a tough one, but this is the ideal. If you can solve this you can retire immediately, somewhere hot, with a nice beach.

-Check.

"Easy one. Unix based so crashing doesn't really happen."

You're starting to lose my respect now. Linux crashes. I've seen X desktop take out a system (graphics drivers most likely), I've seen many a kernel panic, 2 days ago I saw a log entry where the ext3 driver puked out a stack trace whilst writing to the journal file. I've had a Linux root filesystem destroyed because of some long term steady file system corruption (ext3 based), lesson learned by upping frequency of automatic file system checks. Yes, unfortunately, Linux crashes. Maybe this will be unavoidable in a future computer, but maybe we'll have some clever stack recovery techniques by then.

"Don't need to - Ubuntu 8.04 is here for free.

Try it - what have you got to lose - I think you'll be shocked at how good it is compared to MS products.

Of course - you might have to admit that you're behind the curve a bit - but you'll still be a relatively early adopter.

Also, I'm not as experienced with Mac's but I think most of the points I've made apply to Mac's as well."

And here's where you lost my respect completely with the smug overtones and evangelistic approach. I have a Linux and Windows box side by side (both configured a long time ago), and have done so for years. I've had a Linux box since before 2000 for what its worth. I have tried Ubuntu and found it to be a slight, marginal improvement on Debian. But not much. My post was not about current desktop systems and all their idiosyncrasies, my post is a wishlist, prompted by the fact that there is room for improvement in all the software technologies we currently have. Unfortunately, Ubuntu doesn't answer it and my jaw remains where it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

Vista Haters

to preface this yes it is long and no im not a MS fanboy i also run 3 flavors of linux and 2 of unix, and have been in IT and Support in many positions over the last 20 years.

I find it funny that the very peeps that pile up so much hate on vista either A) i have never installed it and worked with it

B) Installed in on an old pc with very little ram and had a bad experience beacuse of it.

of those 2 the most intresting are the A type, they have no idea what vista is like the just have heard FUD and jump on the bandwagon, without any real knowledge of what the are vehemently spouting about.

The real deal: Vista just like xp when it was 1st introduced wont run well on a bottom end pc's well, least not with out some upgrades. simplest and cheapest of these is memory, I have a 1.8ghz p4 laptop with 512mb ram to start installed vista as a test ran really slow uppped the ram to 2gb ($50 US, got the ram used) runs very well now, obviously slower than my quadcore dektop with concern to apps and cant run aero due to video, but runs with 0 issues, and actually faster than the dual boot to xp does with the same amount of ram.

The misnormer some people state vista uses way more ram and it does on its own but not by that much, the amount of ram shown to be used is a fake it "reserves" a large portion of ram for sytem use, but can be quickly diverted to application use if its requested, the ram is not in use at this time but will show on ram monitoring tools even vistas own that it is, this is part of the vista memory mangement which far exceeds xp's capibility in both speed and capacity.

Another thing that i was suprised with vista is spyware even when ive purposely loaded some of spyware apps or tojans that crippled xp onto vista they either didnt work and showed installed but had no effect to worst case limted effect IE created popups installed software etc, but its nasty side unlike xp, once in safe mode were easily removed.

Reason is Security, we hear it all the time vista has better security, but few know intimately what that means, NO application runs with admin privledges unlike XP where everything runs WITH Admin rights which was xp's biggest criticism. Many have heard that but what it means to spyware and other malware is alot of spyware/malware either assume admin rigths or they use tricks that require admin user rights to do, like moding system files or inserting themselves in to system areas, these things are impossible in vista as it doesnt have the right both on the system side or file system side to make those modifcations, there are some ways it can be bypassed but not via the web only loacaly running and asking for the executables privilages to but upgrded then the user agreeing, hence they fail and are either broken or easily removed. not to say vista is bullet proof to spyware i have had 1 that took a bit of a mess to remove that was virtumonde, but although present and hard to get rid of it didnt do anything it was broken, just hard to get rid of beacuse it was broken.

Is Vista perfect? not by a long shot. Is it better than XP? depends on how you use it. All the drm etc is easily avioded if you know how, but overall yes it works faster smarter and has less issues when properly configured than xp, just like xp did exactly the same way versus windows 98.

Moral: the less one makes declairative statements the less one is likely to look foolish in retrospec :P

[Anonymous Coward]

DRM?

Oh yeah, that stupid software that tells me what is on the newly-purchased (genuine, original packaging etc from a 'real' shop and not some dodgy online music store) music CD I just stuck in my floptical drive and then asks me if I want to buy a copy?

The software that wants to see if the 'movie' files on my PC are genuine before it will run them... Oh wait, they're not movie files, they're cut scenes between stages in a gorram computer game!

The software that will happily let my wife watch a dubious copy of a film downloaded (by a friend, prior to intended purchase of same) from the 'Net but then insist on displaying a "copying is theft" video track from FACT every time we watch the Genuine, holograph-protected, originally-packaged and bought-from-a-store DVD. Every rutting time we watch it. The quality on the dodgy copy was damn-near as good as the Genuine DVD, but we didn't have to sit through FACTs blatant self-justification crap every time we watched it.

Let the DRM creators burn in (Development) Hell. Hangning's too good for 'em.

[Mark]

Re: Vista Haters

Well you're trolling or lying because the very headline is over-emotive and unhelpful.

Do you think we hate being locked out of our house when it is pissing down with rain?

Yup.

Does that mean we're "door-unlocking-and-not-being-rained-on" zealots?

No.

We have a damn good reason for it.

So why must there NOT be a damn good reason for hating Vista?

[Mark]

@Steve Barnes

Yes, we can. It's real easy to say that Ubuntu is real easy for a noob to use.

Why?

Because it is.

It's not easy to buy software for in PCWorld, but that's fuck all to do with using the OS.

[nobby]

@Vista Haters

Ah.. so the two machines I bought last year for me and the missus to play games on should run vista fine with no problems?

like *gentle caress* they do.

i'd love the spritelyness of my old XP machine(*), i'd love the speed of the Fedora machine we used to use as a file sharer.

Hell i'd love the two new machine to admit the other machines existed on the network!

Vista is shite. Shite on old boxes and shite on new boxes.

Accept it. If you dont use your machine for much it might like you. But copying files over a network, nah. Stable desktop, nah.

Sometimes I feel like looking in the garage for my ZX Spectrum (48k upgraded from 16k manually) and seeing if it'll still work, then see if i think that Computing has got Better or just Prettier(**)

(*) bought from Tiny in 1999 as a win98se machine; four motherboards later the only piece left of the original machine was the floppy drive (which refused to work but i kept it in for keepsake) and the oem message on the windows screen (Which survived the upgrade to xp home, then xp pro); just finally got too flaky to continue even after clean installs. yes it was likely my own fault but installing vista on it trashed it due to the 18monthold motherboard not having drivers even though the vista-compatiblity check came two thumbs up.

(**) sarcasm included at no extra cost

[Steve Barnes]

@Mark

To be frank, bollocks. Simply bollocks. Ubuntu may be easy for a "NOOB" to use - as in, someone who's half decent with computers and trying Ubuntu for the first time etc, but for your average joe with little computing experience etc, i would bet solid money they wouldn't be able to install apps or configure settings etc. I love my ubuntu set-up. But I'm not in denial that it's not suited for novices!

[Mark]

@Steve Barnse

No, your zealot rant is bollocks. For your average Joe, preinstalled, it is as easy as Windows ever was. Since it already HAS Office software, DVD writing, movie playing (this is a paid distribution, Dell does it this way), lots of time-waster games, email, several IM clients, several Photoshop equivalents, many editors, languages and lots,lots more, so you don't have to install anything, it's EASIER for Joe to use than MS, which requires installing a lot of stuff that isn't in Windows or the bundles (which either don't include much other than AV, firewall and "Works" if you're lucky, or it's much more expensive).

If you're having to install it yourself, compared to installing a retail windows on your machine, it is FAR FAR easier.

And if you want dual-boot?!?!?! Jeez, that under windows can be a herculean task.