Grand Theft Auto 4 queue man stabbed in head A hooded male stabbed another man in the head and neck yesterday as they both queued to buy copies of Grand Theft Auto IV from a Croydon Gamestation store. Onlookers witnessed the Niko-style stabbing, which some bystanders have said they initially thought was a stunt pulled to whip-up yet more excitement for the eagerly …
If they had opened earlier, these individuals would have collected their copy of GTA IV, and been stabbing virtual people not real ones..
Let the media frenzied outrage commence....
PS, if you want more fuel, this is hotter than Hot Coffee...
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/O51l7S7Sx3g
"Some anti-GTA IV campaigners have already jumped on both incidents as proof that such games are too violent for society."
On the grounds they were queuing to buy (presumably their first copy of) the game they would not yet have played the game and this actually demonstrates that society is, or can be every bit as violent as the game.
Art imitating art, not the other way around.
I have played the older versions of the game and sometimes I've wondered at the way you start thinking while playing.
However, in this case the men hadn't yet bought the game so I can't see how you can conclude that the game made them violent.
You could of course argue that the game is attractive to people who are pre-disposed to violence, although I may buy it and am yet to stab or attack anyone so it would seem the game is attractive to others as well.
On the other hand this may make for a good headline in the Daily Mail but you can't draw any conclusions from a small sample like this. You'd have to say something like, 20% of GTA IV players committed violent acts in the month following purchase, compared to 10% who bought Gran Turismo and 30% who support Man U :-) Even then you'd need to check for other possible explanations.
So 2 people are injured and they're blaming it on this game, trying to ban it??
How many people have died through football violence/hooliganism? Should we ban that too? I'd think that would take a higher priority :|
The namby pamby wrist-wringers can bugger off back to happyland and leave the real people to their real lives and stop trying to interfere.
Didn't this happen when the xbox 360 was released? ie - people attacking each other for the limited supply of product?
Aren't there fights EVERY time something long anticipated is released and stock is not plentiful (nearly always)?
This isn't a matter of the GAME being violent, people do this for the hardware itself which can't POSSIBLY be considered a violent influence on its own. People are quite simply selfish bastards who will, on occasion, do ANYTHING to get their hands on the latest shiny.
Considering the previous GTA titles have been among the highest grossing gaming titles maybe the correlation shouldn't be to the violence in the game but to the stupidity of the publishers for not being prepared for the high demand.
Most outlets now are quoting 14 days to deliver - seems to me someone screwed up their supply planning, and now I'll just wait for a second hand copy after one of the fanboys has finished it before the weekend...
/bfg
Nah . . . . . .
Every time something happens in the world that is bad, computers / games / the internet is blamed. If it were really true, Horace Goes Skiing would have caused ski-pole rage many years ago !
What happened BEFORE the days of computer games ? I cannot remember anyone blaming Cluedo for violence ??????
Paris . . . . cos she has had her share of games
Mine's the coat with an axe in the inside pocket
So, this guy had a knife, got in an argument and stabbed someone ? Where it happened is irrelevant - the same thing could have happened at the Cinema or in MacDonalds.
It speaks volumes about the pair of them though - one stabbing someone over an argument, and the other going home to get his knife to stab the guy back.
Let Darwin sort it out, I say !
(Kudos to a friend, however, who when I emailed him this story responded with "Did he drop a glowing bundle of cash?")
Even if they had opened earlier people would still need to queue for the game. Also how exactly could you blame Rockstar, they had to release the game on a day, even if they had released it earlier these people would still have to queue.
How can the anti-GTA campaigners claim its because of GTA when they were in the queue to buy GTA??
Tell youngest son no. It's an 18 title. You have to be 18 years old to buy it. Unless of course you let him watch porn, smoke, have sex, vote on your behalf and drive to the off-license to buy booze, then go right ahead.
I've never understood folk that can't read labels. I know for a fact there will be dick-headed parents in those queues buying GTA IV for their kids. Those morons are the ones that cause folk like Vaz to get their trolleys in a knot, ultimately spoiling it for the rest of us who want to play stuff like GTA.
You're not alone. I've spoken to a number of people with kids under the age recommendation for this game who are being whined at, and a significant majority are in the position where they either have bought, or plan to buy, this game for said kids to end the pester-factor. In every case, I've tried to put them off, because it really, really, isn't suitable for children, and I know I wouldn't want my kids playing it. Some agree, some don't, but a lot weren't aware of what sort of content was in it.
The people I really feel for at the moment is the staff in the real life games stores who will be under huge pressure with kids (some with parents / other adults) coming in to buy this game, and the problems they're going to face with that.
That will probably be a tough call. Do you buy a copy for 'yourself' and if you're not around and your son manages to play on it what can you do. However my biggest concern would not be my son playing the game, as its no worse than a Hollywood film, but when his friends parents find out their kids have been over to your house watching your son getting a reacharound from a virtual prosser.
"The people I really feel for at the moment is the staff in the real life games stores who will be under huge pressure with kids (some with parents / other adults) coming in to buy this game, and the problems they're going to face with that."
thats no different from kids wanting toys that are too expensive. my parent just said NO when i was younger. since then i have gone out and earned my way without help from anyone. saying YES just to make life easier is the reason we have so many unruly kids that cannot take NO for an answer.
if your young kid came up and said 'dad i want a hooker and some smack - all the other kids are f**king and getting wasted" - what would you do? parent have to take responsibility! the ps3 can actually setup passworded accounts - this should be done by parent if they have a copy of a game they dont want the kids to play.
>> On the grounds they were queuing to buy (presumably their
>> first copy of) the game they would not yet have played the
>> game and this actually demonstrates that society is,
>> or can be every bit as violent as the game.
What twisted logic - this is instalment 4 of a game and as they were already queuing on day of release then very likely they had played at least one of the previous instalments or very similar games - can I interest you in scheme to extract money from a Nigerian prince?
Now whether playing violent games, being closeted away from the world with just video screen or just too much testosterone and adrenaline causes young men to be violent is a different matter
This simply proves that the games aren't to blame. Even before having played the game, people are already happy to bludgeon each other.
I've watched violent films and played violent video games for years but I've never felt an urge to go out on a killing spree or sadistically torture somebody. The violence ends when I turn off the TV/console. It takes a deranged individual with a warped (or completely absent for that matter) sense of right and wrong and little understanding that actions (good or bad) have consequences. Video games may be an influence (I'll happily concede that) but they are not ultimately responsible.
This is just another one of many cases where responsibility is taken away from the parents with raising their children. Before any clever dick asks if I have children, no I don't, but as a parent you are always free to say no to buying them such game or going over to their friend's house to play it. So what if they say they hate you or resent you for saying no? Surely part of being a parent is deciding what's best for your kids and not the authorities.
AARRGHH! When will people learn that you're either predisposed towards violence, or you're not. The game doesn't make you do anything you wouldn't normally do yourself. God, this makes me so mad I could just stab someone in the head.
Mine's the one with the kevlar padded hood.
Of course, silly me... Thanks for pointing that out Mr Vaz, computer games and movies are the cause of all violence in society...
The crusades and Jack the Ripper were caused by a particularly violent Punch and Judy act.
Tw*t.
Mr Vaz, the problem is that some people in society have no respect for others. These people have always existed. Maybe if your government hadn't made parents punishing their children for being bad a legal tightrope, the little oiks might have learnt a little respect early on in life.
"Do you buy a copy for 'yourself' and if you're not around and your son manages to play on it what can you do."
Not let him keep the console in his bedroom and punish him if he does play it, e.g. by temporarily taking the console away?
I'm in a position to be complacent, not having any kids myself, but I don't understand why 'no' is such a hard word to say. If the word was 'Kezhangdenaiachisundurek' I could understand, but as it's a simple monosyllable I'm forced to assume that parents just don't have the guts anymore. What was the point of our parents and grandparents developing all those hoary old clichés like 'If your friends jumped off a cliff, would you jump off a cliff?' and passing them down through the ages if we don't use them?
'Pester power' is a disgusting modern phenomenon, pestering should have no power whatsoever. And in this case, for once, I believe it is a modern phenomenon and not one of those 'ooh wasn't everything better when we were all dying of rickets' things.
Anyway, the fact that the response of the "victim" was to go home for his own knife tells us all we need to know about that one.
"Some anti-GTA IV campaigners have already jumped on both incidents as proof that such games are too violent for society."
As Au Contraire said, they hadnt even played the game yet! If anything it's 'proof' (in the apparently new definition of the word in common usage) of the exact opposite.
Surely it's more likely the case that the sort of sociopathic violent person who is capable of stabbing someone in the head over a dispute in a queue is more likely to be attracted to a game like GTA IV than -say- 'Pippa Funnel - take the reigns'.
So, when one of these people finally goes postal and takes out a whole bunch of poor people, what game are you more likely to find in their home, GTA-IV or 'everyones favourite no-holes barred horse-fest'?
It's not the game that made a knife-weilding maniac. Millions of people play violent computer games without turning into sword-swinging psychos, and concentrating on banning games takes away from the real debate on how we identify and help people with much deeper problems.
Next week: 'Anti-Diary groups say looking at cheeee makes you fat'
(Paris because I bet Pippa Funnel is her favourite game as well)
Obviously if the guy isn't comfortable with his kids playing it then the answer is not to agree to buy it for them.
Smallbrainfield: So you never viewed porn, watched an 18 movie or tried alcahol before 18? Either you lived a shockingly dull life, or more likely your parents and the goverment didn't monitor you constantly allowing you to develop like everyone else.
Kids do things their parents aren't happy with, if their parents are big enough asses about it they'll hide it from them. Personally I'd be perfectly happy letting a 14 year old play GTA, they'd be more than capable of treating it as a form entertainment not career advice.
Someone visiting violence upon another person isn't because they played a violent game or watched Chucky3 it's because they are already broken mentally.
Or is that just FAR too obvious for the modern day jingoistic, bandwagon-jumping, specially-interested, self-motivated, greedy, lame and generally dysfunctional society we find ourselves living in.
And that's BEFORE you add in the political correctness f*c*tards.
"Sadly, my youngest son has started pestering me for a copy of this game.
I should have bought a Wii."
Since the game has a 18 rating tell him he's not old enough.
This is one of the problems, parents buyng games that children should not play. Therefore if a child goes postal they shouldn't blame it on the game but themselves.
People are mugged and stabbed for trainers, mobile phones, ipods etc. etc.
But all gta 4 incidents are the cause of the game!
Come on idiots! crime and violence has been with us for years long before these games. and it will be for as long as we live with or without them!
drives me mad!!
Rant over! im off to finish burnout paradise! then im going for a real drive to find some billboard's to crash through!
Dear El Reginald,
Please can we get a rewrite of this story - sensational as it may be, clickworthy as the writing makes it - it's of very questionable veracity.
This version of the story sensationalises and trivialises a nasty street attack, and uses the incident to further inflame the already muddy debate on computer games and their proposed link to violence.
Yours, etc
Steve
I'm not necessarily condoning it, but out of curiosity can anyone tell me exactly what the consequences of letting a person under the age of eighteen play this game would be? What, exactly, happens to a person on their eighteenth birthday that suddenly means they are less likely to be influenced by games like this?
I remember playing the blood and guts versions of Carmageddon and Duke Nukem 3D when I was in my early teens, but I have so far not run over someone in a spectacular fashion or cut off someone's head to shit down their neck.
To AC I say this: You know your youngest son. If this game has content you personally would not want your son to be exposed to just yet (because he will be, eventually), don't buy it for him. If you think he is the kind of child that would be directly influenced by this game and go out and commit some of the acts portrayed in it, then don't buy it for him; seek counselling instead. If, on the other hand, you want to show him that you have faith in his ability to distinguish fantasy from reality, buy it for him and take the time to play it with him. That way you can ensure that he is not getting over-zealous and, if something appears in the game you'd rather he didn't see, you will be on hand to wrap things up or tell white lies to explain things away.
At the end of the day, how well do you know your kid?
I've just read few a handful of comments from people either blaming this on the game, saying that its not the game because he had not bought it yet or saying that they more likely will have already played the game hence why they are queuing up for it on day 1
I think you've all missed the important fact that the people involved in the stabbing WERE NOT IN THE QUEUE TO BUY ANY GAMES, they were walking past the queue...... jesh.....
A stabbing in Croydon.... and some people were queuing near by..... gee that doesn't happen every day it must be that evil games fault.
Check Croydon local news
I can only speak for myself but when I was a kid my dad let me watch plenty of 18 certificate films when i was about 12-13 on wards. Plenty of these films were very violent but somehow and I dont know. I managed to go to uni get a degree and then get a very good job.
Strange!
That while 50% of the involved murder-simulator immersees were carrying knives, 50% weren't- a marked improvement from previous years where (according to my Daily Mail) EVERY SINGLE GAMER was packing about 400kg of guns/ammo/armour that they found in crates at the side of the road.
GTA:IV is clearly then FAR LESS likely to cause murders than Doom (bodycount from Doom: Columbine and Dunblane, according to said Daily Mail; bodycount from GTA:IV: 1 person). So, from what I can see, the route towards societal peace is to support more games with ridiculous amounts of guns and ammo, lots of drugs, and plenty of sexual content. I'll provide the graph to prove it if anyone asks politely.
Games rock. GTA:IV should rock more than most games. Though I doubt it'll reach the levels of rock attained by GTA: Vice City.
lets get some perspective .... this happened in Croydon!?
i wouldnt surprise me if this would have happened if these two people had met anyway?
last week there was a stabbing outside west croydon station at 3 in the afternoon - not anecdotal: i saw the abmbulances, the pools of blood and the police...
where was Mr Vaz, the Reg or the Daily mail then?
nor, is it jsut the afternoons! twice this year in the mornings on teh way to work there were pools of fresh blood near the george st tram stop!?
maybe it was people getting train rage after an all night session on M$ Train simulater: urban edtion ?
none of these events made it beyond a foot note in the local rag!
Given how badly some ultraviolent game/film/tv show appears to affect the weakwilled public what about the following:
a- Dumbed down tv shows making stupid people even more stupid
b- Ensuring RTA's involving speed have not seen the F1/Rally cars in the 24 hours prior to driving (god help em if they have GT5 at home)
c- Politicians on TV - making kids think its ok to lie and cheat...
"if video games affected children we would all be running around in the dark,eating little white pills listening to repetitve electronic music"
Ive always loved that quote. I believe it was from the original creator of the Nintendo wayyy back in the 80's. Such foresight.
Paris cos she does all of the above. :)
"Some anti-GTA IV campaigners have already jumped on both incidents as proof that such games are too violent for society."
Well duuuuuuuh! So playstation 3's are evil too becasue the same happened with them, and X box's. Crikey we'd better just ban all computer consoles and games!
I say these anti-GTA IV campaigners are TOO DUMB! for society!
Hrm, you can either:
- allow your kids to grow through their teenage years with no limits or boundaries, still disciplining them but not shielding them away from modern life, or
- restrict your kids access to anything deemed by some censorship body as "inappropriate", stoke their curiousity up until the day they turn 18, at which point the parent loses guardianship and has no control over their child whatsoever..
I grew up through the first one and I'm a fairly well rounded individual - never committed a crime, but been exposed to depravity, filth, crime etc through tv and video games. And when I have kids, I'll expose them to it too - it's when they learn the most and start developing their personalities.
Liam: Don't understand your response....
You quoted me:
"The people I really feel for at the moment is the staff in the real life games stores who will be under huge pressure with kids (some with parents / other adults) coming in to buy this game, and the problems they're going to face with that."
And replied:
"thats no different from kids wanting toys that are too expensive. my parent just said NO when i was younger. since then i have gone out and earned my way without help from anyone. saying YES just to make life easier is the reason we have so many unruly kids that cannot take NO for an answer."
Maybe I'm being slow today (wouldn't be the first time) but I don't see the connection.... All I was saying there was that I feel for the games store assistants who are getting the shitty end of the stick from kids & parents when they refuse to sell / say "you ARE aware this is an 18-rated game you're buying for your 9yo son, right? And that the game manufacturer agrees it's not suitable for minors?" - because they get a lot of grief for this (based on what I've seen in Game/HMV/Zavvi etc). I don't personally think this is a suitable game for kiddies, even if they are "very grown up for 12", and was just telling the AC he's not on his own with the child pestering him. My 12yo nephew has been doing the same to his mum, but she has the balls (metaphorically!!!!) to say no and deal with the ensuing tantrums. So did I when he then came to ask "Uncle Mikeeeeeeey" because I *do* buy him some 15 etc rated games - but only after I have played them myself and am comfortable that the content is suitable. In this case, "no chance kid!"
Paris cos I'm probably just being slow (again).
..this game just plays into the hands of the the pathetic yardie-imitating chavs that scurry around our towns in their pitiful, exhausted Novas and Saxos. Just what our society needs, another stupid game that kiddiots can play endlessly while they listen to their shit garage 'music', smoke their homegrown skunk and furiously w**k themselves into oblivion over their dog-eared copies of Nuts magazine. And it's all fine until one of more insecure ones decides to start carrying an knife or a gun...
According to an eyewitness (i.e. sombody in the queue), the stabbed man walked past the queue and said "Get a life". Upon which somebody from the queue jumped out and stabbed him...
Now, I didn't hear of this happening at the launch of Wii-Fit......
Logical(ish) conclusion? Violent video games cause violence.
Proper conclusion? The guy who did the stabbing was a complete psycho and would've done it regardless of what he was queueing for.
>"Some anti-GTA IV campaigners have already jumped on both incidents as proof that such games are too violent for society."
That explanation fails to consider the fact that we've seen very similar dickhead behaviour left right and centre down the years in contexts that have nothing to do with video games - for instance the opening of new Ikea stores, at least one of which there was a stabbing at, or does anyone remember the fist-fights that broke out in toy shops when Cabbage Patch dolls were the latest must-have thing? So it looks to me like their reasoning is demonstrably back-to-front: the game can't be the necessary cause if the same thing happens without the game being involved.
It is society that is too violent in every context, not just games.
sorry mate - i think i meant to quote something/someone else :) (im tired too after celebrating england whooping the spaniards AGAIN at footy :))
i was trying to say that parent cannot let kids play 18 games then complain. arghh too tired to even bother... my apologies... nothing to see here... keep moving on :)
"The victim managed to survive the ordeal - and stumbled home to grab a knife for a revenge attack. However, he collapsed in the street on his way back to the store."
If only he'd have picked up a health pack or bought a burger.
What possesses someone to use a knife like that? The RPG is far more effective as you don't need to be as close.
Before I started playing first-person shooters I didn't fantasise about shooting holes in people who were a little bit rude to me. I've personally stopped playing FPSs, and I'm better now.
I support a sensible debate on the control of immersively violent games and am bloody well sick of the usual reactionaries on both sides screaming "games are evil!" and "games don't have the slightest effect".
Paris, because when I hear her speak I'm more inclined to hit-and-run violence than when I play GTA.
Not sure what you mean by being monitored by the government due to my lack of porn/alcohol usage prior to turning 18. Are you monitored in some way? Do they know you have access to the internet?
I'm not sure how the government monitoring my teenage porn-buying escapades would have any bearing on whether or not I turned out as shockingly dull as I am. I wasn't tall enough to reach the top shelf either.
Going back to the original post, we don't actually know how old the kid in question is. You said you wouldn't mind a 14 year old playing GTA4. What if he's 8? Is that young enough? If he's not old enough to earn the cash to buy it himself, then he shouldn't be playing it. Is that a better benchmark? I don't know. Anyway, I'm off to catch up on my drinking. I didn't start 'til I was 18, you see.
"if video games affected children we would all be running around in the dark,eating little white pills listening to repetitve electronic music"
Well I can't say for sure whether the quote was ever made by someone from Nintendo, but I saw it last night on a few year old repeat of a Jack Dee standup. Except it wasn't Jack, but some guy called Marcus Brigstocke - and he was funny as fuck.
As for this event, well to be honest, the two people involved are probably a fine example of the sort of person who SHOULDN'T be allowed to watch violent tv, play violent games and the like. Unfortunately until they make psychological screening a pre-requisite for said activities, there's not much can be done. Why ruin it for the 99.9% of people who buy a game like GTA4, play it and carry on with their normal lives without the need to stab anyone?
Oh and on another note, I am halfway between being impressed and disturbed at the obvious amount of effort that has gone into making picking up a hooker more interesting. Gone are the GTA3 days of the car shaking from side to side a bit, but you can still probably run her over afterwards and get your money back :)
"Keith Vaz, a prominent British Labour MP, said that news of both incidents didn't surprise him."
What he probably meant was, "I'm not surprised to hear that, in today's Britain, people are stabbing each other and mugging people for their possessions...it happens every day."
Before the day's of computer's and video games people were beating each other up stabbing each other and stealing someone's possessions that they wanted for themselves.
Nothing has changed at all now that you can do it on a computer game, the same violent ass wipes are still out there but they also what to play the cool game just like you.
Human behavior has not changed for a very long time and the item that people get stabbed/beat up/mugged over has no bearing on this.
As for those people saying their kids want this game, well if you buy this game for your children than your a bad parent full stop. These games have an 18 rating meaning they are for adults only. Sure I might understand you being a little lax with a 16 or 17 year old. But I've seen 8 year olds with this game. What needs to be stopped is these piss poor parents that are exposing/buying their children adult only material.
The media basically needs the public to have a bogeyman and games fit the bill. They are the preserve of the geek, the nerd, the quiet teenager locked in his room hour after hour, they are a great unknown to the chattering classes and middle Englanders all reading the Daily Mail and fearing that chavs or immigrants will invade their cosy little villages and devalue their property. Games industry, unlike music and movies isn't used to the attention yet, they haven't quite got the hang of basically saying bugger off, yes well stick some more labels saying anyone under 48 isn't allowed to buy it, whatever you want, just sod off.
Sorry but alcohol and/or driving ( without or without a mobile!) causes more deaths an injuries than any other aspects of modern life, don't see many angry mothers picketing TESCO demanding all the alcohol be poured down the drain. Don't see the government banning drink or cars, now why is that? Oh yes, 'cos it makes shed-loads in taxes, unlike games which only reel in the usual 17.5%.
>"Wait. Aren't you talking about a rave?"
*headdesk*
Of course they are, you bleeding' idiot. That is the entire point of the joke.
Putting a "Joke alert" on your post when you're just spoiling the original joke by clumsily restating and explaining it doesn't make you immune from having missed the joke yourself, which you clearly did. EPIC FAIL.
The delivery van driver dropping off my copy of GTA IV special edition stabbed me in the head too, and ran off with it, the bastard!!
The knife went right thru the skull, I have a slight headache but I'm alright now.
.
Moral of the story - If you're buying a copy of a game from a hellhole of a games shop in a hellhole of a town like Croydon, expect such behaviour - its not news to me.
I would have been surprised if NO such stabbing occurred at least once somewhere like that.
Having said that, Manchester seems to be a bit too peaceful at the moment!!!
The stabee might've had a knife on him as well.
Seriously though, I live in France and films that were rated over 18 in Ireland (where I grew up) and Britain are rated at 12 here. Movie violence is rarely rated over 12 here. There's no 15 rating,soft porn gets a 16 rating and hard porn gets an 18 rating. And they don't even have a 21 rating! And you don't see French kids killing and raping each other in the streets every day.
I think the Irish and British censors are living on another planet. And I won't even get into American "values" when it comes to TV censorship. You can burn, bomb, shoot, strangle, torture, maim, rape and kill, only during the destructive act of choice you can't show more flesh than you'd see in church on Sunday (except for HBO of course!).
Mine's the one with "don't tell me what I can and can't watch" written on it.
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