Anti-Scientology crusader vaporized from YouTube YouTube has vaporized a popular user account dedicated to criticizing The Church of Scientology. Last Thursday, the world's most popular video sharer removed the 10,000-subscriber-strong "Xenutv1" channel run by Mark Bunker, a television journalist/well-known Scientology naysayer. Earlier in the week, Bunker posted a teaser …
""They said that because my first account was canceled, I was never supposed to have a second account," Bunker explained. "I was supposed to be banned for life.""
The obvious solution is to ask a friend to host all the stuff on his behalf, and post as e.g. Xenutv2. Alternatively, and just in case that falls under a rule banning meatpuppets, ask for volunteers; if hundreds of people upload the videos perhaps Youtube will back down. It's a lot of free publicity for Mr Xenutv and hardly makes Scientology look kind and gentle.
"an internet protest movement known as Anonymous - which sprung up after YouTube erased the Cruise clip from its entire site"
Never laughed so hard in my life!
Anonymous are a bunch of soul-less geeks that spend most of their lives insulting each other, only occasionally uniting to try and take down anyone that thought they were bigger and better. They're made up of black hats and asshats. The beef with scientology was firmly because they took down the funny video of tom cruise, and their initial reaction (DDOS, prank calls, nuisance faxes, death threats) was far more in line with their modus operandi than the new "legit" protestors.
Still, anyone that wants to take a chunk of scientology is alright by me.
Given that youtube is owned by google and is based out of america, could bunker not argue that the removal of non-copyrighted information was in itself an infringement of his right to free speech and as such sue the parent companies for this, thus gaining a higher profile for his cause?
It's quite true that the whole protest movement started out as yet another raid by the #chans, but things changed once Mark Bunker put a video on his Youtube channel saying "Er, guys, knock off the DDoS BS, you're not helping": it happened and led to the movement dispersing, setting up new bases of operation and joining forces with established anti-Scientology voices. In fact the majority of posts on the subject within the #chans now rubbish the whole idea, as it's gone mainstream and thus doesn't fit the "l33t haxx0rz on steroids" image the more pimply-faced, daylight-averse posters like to project. Anonymous is now an entity distinct from the #chans, but irretrievably entwined with them.
While the Rickrolling (also now gone mainstream, but that's a matter for a different post) and meme-shouting do feature at the protests, these seem to have taken on the mantle of acting as a unifying force for what is, basically, a bunch of people wearing masks to protect their identity who do not know one another to get behind and hang their protest off, and there is some pretty creative work being done in welding these into actual protest slogans, activities and chants. In any event, it doesn't seem to matter what's actually being said, as long as it's legal and noisy enough to attract the attention of passers-by, who are engaged by legions of leaflet-wielding protesters who are passionate and articulate about the cause. It seems to work, though the jury's out as to how this is going to pan out in the long term.
If nothing else, the whole thing is a remarkable insight into how the power of the Internets can be harnessed to rapidly create and deploy a huge body of people who are prepared to engage in mass peaceful protest which is at the same time completely without a hierarchical structure.
What's the big deal?? Is YouTube the *only* video/sharing host on the t'Internweb? If they won't take your custom then plenty of others will. After all it's just a different domain name in any links you post, not exactly a big deal for viewers?!
Also being pedantic, but if the clips were previews of the guy's OWN videoed interview, won't they be subject to HIS copyright, not non-copyrighted per se?
Zohar Lee; "removal of non-copyrighted information was in itself an infringement of his right to free speech"
The American constitution says that the Government cannot limit American citizens right to free speech. As Google is not the American government, his right to free speech is irrelevant. Google, and hence YouTube, can decide who gets to say what on their websites and can remove whatever they wish for whatever reason they like.
As in the Daily Show with Jon Stewart, Sarah Bee? or is u justa poser? If'in u is the real deal den mista Bunker be in like flintstone.
Posting Anon because most of the rest of you are. And I just don't feel very much like a salmon today, need more coffee first. Need to go find some new Verity she makes me laugh BoFH is good to.
@Account policy
Just tell them you want to keep flying and they will think you are nuts and let you out.
Was that a run on? Kinda wuz darn I need more coffee. And why do I keep thinking of comedians spawning right now?
Grumbles while looking for the peruvian high grown.
However, since the need to remove material was via DMCA, enforced BY THE GOVERNMENT, that is, it has the force of government power behind it, the government ARE most definitely involved and so this IS a free speech issue.
Otherwise, would we be allowed to take Youtube et al to court for deleting our stuff? No. Because they have to do this because of the conditions of the DMCA and the government will enforce it.
Scientology isn't a religion, it's a cult. Scientologists might be nice people, but the cult itself is purely designed to make those at the top rich and to fleece little people out of their cash. The fact that the founder is on record as saying that starting a religion is the best get-rich quick scheme around helps for sure. It is interesting that the US is pretty much the only country on the planet that accepts it as a religion, most rational countries class it as a cult. Of course, the US classes certain countries (Germany for example) as being intolerant of religion because of the cult classification of scientology, but in this I would support Germany - it is clearly a cult.
Now just wait for the black helicopters to get me.
Why when CoS show NO respect whatsoever to anyone else.
They aren't even a religion. At best they are a pyramid scam. At worst a cult (with all the negative connotations thereof).
Why? A short and very much incomplete list:
1) Pay to play. You're stuck at level 1 unless you pay
2) Indoctrination. You're kept from anyone who may persuade you you're not doing the right thing
3) Rabid Attack Lawyers. This is a case in point. The lawyers probably required the immediate takedown of the *account*, which isn't part of DMCA
4) Rabid snoopers. They make Maureen O Gara look like Mother Theresa when they send their shithounds out to destroy socially those who left (or have laughed at them). Even down to physical assault
5) Playing to the crowd. They fake attacks on their property or slander on their people (and then disappear when evidence showing it was faked) so that they can tell the media that anyone talking them down is a nasty piece of work
Well that would be the main point of argument wouldn't it? ("follow human rights and respect people").
I'm all for religious tolerance and blossoming spirituality that go along with those high ideals you pointed out. I just can't reconcile that with the persistent strong-armed aggression of "The Church" of Scientology. If I thought long and hard about their organisational profile and methods, I'd say they had more in common with organised crime than with a church.
They rely on everyone else's ignorance about what they do and fear of standing up to them. All bullys like you to fear them, which is why I am am NOT posting anonymously. I'm reminded of the saying that "Evil prospers when good [wo]men do nothing".
nicest people? They say ignorance is bliss... and considering most people can't afford to pay their way in deep enough to know ANYTHING... I'd say they're ignorant and thus blissfully unaware of how they're being duped... so yeah... they're probably real nice. wait until the truth comes to light about the pyramid scheme ala religion and they'll be not so nice people cause they'll all be pissed about being duped out of money. Probably be pissed at the pub too.
as for asshat?... been used in junior high playgrounds for decades at least.
*goes off to set up another mirror of the interview*
Surely if the beliefs of Scientology could stand up to scrutiny they should not really have any problems if people did investigate them. It is because they don't that they want to silence everyo.....
<Silence as this anonymous coward gets dragged away from his keyboard and threatened with a good auditing...>
There are legal reasons for using copyrighted material.
Namely:
1. Mocking
2. Quoting
Which the authors clips likely fall under. If you let fair use slip by...you wont be getting it back. The author should reply with his own notice. Both to Viacom and Youtube
Paris, cuz even she's not stooopid enough to give her bread to Sciento.
There is a huge difference between being polite and being nice. Scientologists are, it is true, generally polite - so are Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and most evangelicals. But nice they are not, something you'd quickly find out if you tried to expose the nastier aspects of their religion. Their "niceness" takes the form of a rote-learnt sales pitch delivered with a glassy-eyed lack of doubt.
The fact is that non-Scientologists rarely meet Scientologists at anything other than the very early stages of their indoctrination. With the few I have met it was difficult to look them in the eye and not think "the lights are on but no-one's home".
when youtube starts taking down inflammatory or derisive content about catholics, jews, or any other christianity-based religion.
Instead, it promotes these videos while removing anything -even if it's completely factual-that might offend followers of Mohammed or Hubbard.
Censorship, pure and simple. With the added evil of propaganda. Remove all content that ridicules or harasses all religious beliefs, or remove none of it. Anything else is media manipulation.
Seems to me that censorship is alive and well in the USA. With DMCA takedown notices being so easy to make, and there being no real appeals process, and providers falling over themselves to be first to comply with any and all DMCA notices, it seems to be used as just another scare tactic to get material taken down. It also completely ignores supposed "fair use" sections of copyright law, as well as "innocent until proven guilty", as well as "due process".
Perhaps it's time for services outside the USA to fill that gap? Or are there any countries left that haven't fallen victim to the US lobbying for insane copyright laws?
Rather than pay to become a Level 10 Intergalactic Thetan ... or whatever it is ... just download the Scientology 'bible' from WikiLeaks.
It is mainly complete and utter gibberish but was quite interesting seeing what suckers are paying thousands of dollars for.
Download now while the CoS lawyers are still preparing the goat.
"It's a blast"
(Posting anon because I don't want any wackos torching my house)
Surely, Scientology is one of the finest methods ever dreamed up by man (or indeed ancient spacefaring alien) of fleecing the terminally gullible of large amounts of cash, thus contributing subtly to their decline and therefore the gradual improvement of homo sapiens as a species? As such, we should welcome its effect on the likes of Messieurs Cruise, Travolta et al, who would doubtless otherwise squander their millions on wooing impressionable young ladies and procreating like a bunny with a really big basket of carrots in a field full of impressionable young lady bunnies.
Mine's the one with the tinfoil-lined hood and the army surplus label.
No matter witch religion you beveilve in. If it censore its critics, it has something to hide and should be banned. Look arround you. Religion is reponSible for the majority of pain and suffering of human kind. Religion Censor, Religion go to wars, religion kill innocent, religion enslave, Religon is BAD.
Imagine a world without religion, imagne the peace......
Or how some like Saatmarket with coloured beliefs prefer to very conveniently overlook and put their heads in the sand the many big and continuing very questionable and some rather illegal doings this CO$ organisation has been up to from the first day of foundation , by a failed penny dreadful SF writer at the instigation another that fateful day in 1948 or so we have been told and his continuation man's abuse of the laws against those who expose the truth of that he prefers the world not to see beyond that which is acceptable in any normal society !
Perhaps some people would see more clearly now , if they removed those rose coloured blinkers and come back to live in the real world instead of the fantasy one leaching off society for the fast tax free buck ?
One can only live in hope ?
"However, since the need to remove material was via DMCA, enforced BY THE GOVERNMENT, that is, it has the force of government power behind it, the government ARE most definitely involved and so this IS a free speech issue."
No it isn't, unless free speech allows you to use copyright material without permission. The DMCA takedown was for copyrighted material, subsequent takedowns of none-copyrighted videos were at youtubes discretion and not covered by the DMCA request.
All you guys slagging Co$ for being a Ponzie scheme or a cult are off the mark. Of course Co$ is a Ponzie scheme. That's an inherent feature of any religion. The purpose of any religion is to divert wealth from those that produce it and power from those that have it. All the lies about Shamash, Osiris, Baal, Zeus, Jupiter, Xenu or various versions of the InvisibleSkyDaddy are meant to distract one from feeling the strange hand on your wallet.
The Co$ is just another religion. Those screwy Co$ texts are no more silly than any other religious text. The litigious and harassing aspects of Scientology are just the modern versions of fatwas, the Inquisition, and witch hunts.
The everyday freedoms that we in the West currently enjoy were hard won, often bloodily, and generally against the wishes of the politicians and lawmakers in charge at the time. So it will be with the internet. If we want a guaranteed right to privacy and a guaranteed right to freedom of speech on the internet, then we are going to have to fight for them.
The first stage of the fight is to go through the normal channels. There actually are politicians out there who care about the people they represent - if you live in a country that deals with YouTube (eg, in the UK the BBC has done a deal with YouTube) then you should write to your local MP saying something along the lines of 'how can we justify handing over British tax-payer's money to a media organisation that censors so readily'. If enough people make a fuss, the more independent and less toadying members of the political classes will start to rock the boat.
>Imagine a world without religion, imagne the peace......
No way ! If there was no religion then all the bun fights between Intel/AMD fans, the Windoze/Linux sniping etc. would all become more important ! Face it, no matter how hard we try we just love to argue and bitch :)
Mind you, certain peoples devotion to the Church of Jobs would mean that the CoS would have an instant replacement :D
Mines the one with the asbestos lining and the buttons made from Trolls teeth
scientology is not a cult ...to right it is not a cult becasue cult's have set ideals they follow, scientoloy just gets made up as it goes along just like it's hefty bank balance but the crux of what it is is based on who founded it and that man L .Ron was a nutcase 150% , so what he wrote books! but the man spent his life biting bricks he was totally out to lunch at all times the only thing he was "CLEAR" of was sanitiy.
But the whole sickener about this band of halfwitted gullable fool's is the crap the say about the holocaust... and here is me thinking holocaust denails or preaching falsehoods about the holocaust are a crime! cant be thought since the cheif inspector of the met opened the london branch of the CoS ( church of saps).
Paris: because even she wouldn't swallow that
I honestly can't see Scientology as being any kind of an issue. People will always claim to know something others don't in order to be one up. The fact that they're a pyramid scheme just makes them even less interesting. Bunker's story is worth looking at, but not because of Scientology.
The story here is really about YouTube. Time and again they show themselves as being immature and spineless. Pathetic, really. They could use a little help from someone who has been around the block and who has developed some real principles ... an adult perhaps.
Thanks for covering this El Reg ;)
Mark Bunker was standing up to these guys before it was "safer" to do so as it seems these days. Anyone who doesn't know the darkside of this "church" may not think that is a big deal. He's suffered a lot for it though but kept at it. I respect this man greatly and I was shocked and saddened when YouTube took his stuff down.
Welcome to the new age of Xenu.
Perhaps someone within the upper-hierarchy of Youtube actually belongs to the cult, which would explain why they are so willing to remove users who post videos with non-copyrighted material about it. Every time I hear about Scientology it reminds me of an episode of The Simpsons where they get brainwashed into a cult. I don't know why, but it probably explains why I can't take it seriously.
I love the way people will defend it so completely, as if it is something they have believed all of their life, rather than something made up by a con-man in order to extort money from people. Still, fair play to "the creator", he managed to find yet another gap in the market for the extortion of stupid people.
I think you should get them in perspective, it's not a political activism site. It's a site for teenagers to stick their "mobe vids" online.
This is like complaining about the political content of the beano.
It's good to see that he's found alternate video hosting though.
Anyone contemplating involvement in scientology should take a look round his site first www.xenutv.com. They're a weird bunch.
>Perhaps someone within the upper-hierarchy...
ooooh they're everywhere they're all powerful, QUICK! To the tinfoil hats!
Copyright controls only those actions copyright is concerned with. So you have the right to make a copy for critique, parody, teaching and so forth. Just because what you're saying is copyrighted (this message here is copyrighted...) even if by someone else doesn't mean it isn't speech and must be sileced to the "God Of IP".
Basically, you're wrong.
I once met a couple of ex-members of the old South African apartheid government's Security Police (secret police) socially. They too were really nice individuals and the salt of the earth. That doesn't escape the fact that as an organization the Security Police were a bunch of vicious scary murderous bastards. In other words, you can't judge the organization by the individual.
I'm all for patience, but I'm not very tolerant.
I am intolerant of organisations that are con jobs just as I am intolerant of people that are con men.
If someone poses as a gas worker come to check your meter and instead nicks your purse, I see no point in being tolerant.
I think many people confuse being tolerant with being understanding or patient.
it's a "political activism site" as soon as Al Gore and the DNC start putting policy change and candidate videos up on it. Which has already been done.
Political forces deliberately create youtube commercials to advertise their policies and people. At that point it is a media channel and a "political activism site".
This would be akin to youtube deciding to remove any and all pro-Obama video or pro-Clinton video depending on their upper executives choosing to enforce their personal bias. Youtube has gotten to where it is by claiming some sort of egalitarian ideals and needs to be exposed, just as Wikipedia has been.
So unless youtube eliminates *everything* but jackass style mobile phone shots and underage girl's bedroom webcam vids, then it becomes de facto an advertising venue, a political outlet, and bears a responsibility the same as any samizdat publication or university printed socialist rag or Old Press weekend newspaper.
"Thanks to some heavy publicity from an internet protest movement known as Anonymous - which sprung up after YouTube erased the Cruise clip from its entire site"
Nope, not even slightly. Anonymous has been around for quite a while and it is not "an internet protest movement". If you check its Wiki article you'll find out its an internet hate machine, a collection of hackers on steroids, and just a term for people who hang out on places like 4chan.org to say mean things about people (and then get misreported on Fox News).
Yeah, a lot of Anonymous are involved in Project Chanology but that doesn't mean that all of Anonymous is.
Scientology is the biggest load of crap I've ever encountered disguising itself as a 'religion'.
I call BS on the whole group. L Ron Hubbard was a crap author who wrote mildly entertaining (to some, I found them boring as hell) science fiction stories. He once made a statement to the effect that if a man wanted to be rich, he should start his own religion.
Strangely enough, he later did start his own religion, and then backed it up with pseudo-psycho-babble and B-grade pulp science fiction. Utter BS. Oh but we're supposed to be tolerant of others beliefs? Screw that you morons. What, as we supposed to respect the beliefs of Star Wars fans trying to start a Jedi academy? Or should we laugh at their fanboy folly? How about Trek fans who believe that one day man will live in a utopian future without need for money? Or better still the ones speaking Klingon. You know that a university in California actually ran a Klingon language course, right? No suprise then that California also provided the tolerant and fertile ground that has allow Hubbard's weak minded followers to prosper with their scam.
Why do we tolerate this crap? Why do we apologize for calling it crap? Why are we stupid enough to give these idiots respect by calling them a religion in the first bloody place? Scientology is little more than a group of L Ron Hubbard fanboys who get together on a regular basis to sell trinkets and over priced literature and devices that are as effective as Star Trek props for $$$$. Holy crap, if you've ever been to the big Star Trek or Star Wars conventions you know what I mean. There you'll find 1000s of people willing to use their vacation time to be there and spend hard earned dollars on fiction. Guest appearances take on the air of evangelical meetings. You can buy any amount of literature and garb from the various resellers, not to forget the promotional video materials and any number of prop reproductions, some even with powered internals. Hell, you can buy communicators that are really cell phones and tricorders and phasers with lights and sound effects.
How does any of that differ from the BS that $cientology does? It's all based on science fiction, it's followers (fanboys) give up their time and hard earned dollars to be at meetings. Guest speakers are no doubt treated to enthusiastic welcomes and rapt attention. People pay $1000s for the literature and video material and then even the mystical e-meters, which frankly have nothing to differentiate from a Star Trek tricorder with a set of lights and sound effects.
Yet we give $cientology respect and call it faith? How is it any different to rabid Star Trek fans or Star Wars fans? How? I challenge anyone to show a meaningful or valid difference between slightly unhinged Trek or SW fans, and $cientologists - well apart from the propensity of $scientologists to sue people.
I don't care if someone wants to tell me I'm intolerant, I'm not, but I don't see how or why this group of scam artists and fools is given the status and respect of a religion when it's nothing of the sort. Some claim that it's no different to Christianity. I think you're wrong. Unless you want to compare it to the Catholic church of several hundred years ago that was run for the benefit of the priests and which used tools or persecution to keep opposers silent - typically by declaring them heretics and having them killed. Scientology attempts to do the same thing today only their tools of choice are the courts and laws never intended to protect an organization such as the Fans of Hubbard.
You Tube is obviously full of it, if the guy posted no copyright material on the account they most recently removed, then they have no reason or excuse for removing it. All they're doing is participating in suppressing him and his views. I guess that means that both You Tube and by implication Google are within the grasp to some extent at least of $cientology. Timfoil hats on ladies and gentlemen. Can you imagine if several key figures in Google became $cientologist? Would you really trust that Google would remain as squeaky clean as it claims? Perhaps it's already happening? I don't know, but I do know that You Tube is acting in the best interests of the Fans of Hubbard. Interesting.
@anonymous coward:
"at least their 'beliefs' have a higher probability of being true compared to some other religions"
Um, what? I mean, yeah, I don't view the Bible as being true any more than I view the Qu'ran as being true, but to say that Scientology has a "higher probability" of being true is, frankly, insane. The notion that an evil galactic overlord buried millions of enemies in volcanoes and destroyed them with H-bombs, and their wandering souls attach to us, is as likely to be true as the legend of Queztlcoatl. All religious myths are equally ludicrous.
@anonymous coward:
"Of course Co$ is a Ponzie scheme. That's an inherent feature of any religion."
Not quite. You can get a free Bible anywhere. You can attend religious services for any of the actual religions free-of-charge. This is absolutely not the case with Scientology. Scientology has a fee structure, such that the minimum cost to complete the Bridge is in the neighborhood of $300,000, assuming you make it through each course on your first attempt. No other religion does this kind of thing.
Scientology makes it a practice to harass their critics, via litigation and intimidation. They sue people who speak ill of their belief system. No other religion does this, either.
I'm an atheist, and think all religion is bunk, however Scientology goes beyond mere bunkum, crossing the line into outright criminality. Google Lesa McPherson, and read about the numerous people who've lost the lives due to the "Church" of Scientology's actions.
"however Scientology goes beyond mere bunkum, crossing the line into outright criminality. Google Lesa McPherson, and read about the numerous people who've lost the lives due to the "Church" of Scientology's actions.".... By Ign R. Amis
Posted Saturday 26th April 2008 02:36 GMT
Here's a list of lost lives caused by actions on the spoutings of another criminal who has crossed the line In God we Trust bunkum, Ign R. Amis .... http://icasualties.org/oif/ .... but hey, he is voted for [or wangles the vote for there is some real doubt in the last pantomime of an election] and he is afforded protection as a President too, while he destroys everything America seeks to do for the Good of Man. Who's the bigger idiot and where do all the biggest idiots live?
Sue me if you like but the Truth will defeat you. IT never loses for it always wins the popular vote.
Or are we to be told that that is different?
Yeah, right ..... pull the other one, it's got bells on it.
@amanfromMars:
You'll get no argument from me that the Bush administration isn't a criminal enterprise. I think Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice should all be behind bars. If I were to start prioritizing action items in order of importance to humanity at large, taking down Scientology would be somewhat low on the list. So, too, would be the malfeasance of the Bush administration. Impending water and food shortages are at the top, followed by mitigating the effects of the changing climate, and finding workable, non-polluting alternatives to fossil fuels. Regardless, there's no reason whatsoever that this criminal cult should be permitted to keep operating.
"Scientologists i met are nicest people on the planet!"
Until you criticise them. Then they reveal their true personality and "faith" like in vampires' movie.
"I recommend to follow human rights and respecting others beliefs."
Only if they respect the rest. It's stupid and sucidal to respect who doesn't show any respect. Sects can be as dangerous as anything else, if not more.
"@amanfromMars:
You'll get no argument from me that the Bush administration isn't a criminal enterprise. I think Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice should all be behind bars. If I were to start prioritizing action items in order of importance to humanity at large, taking down Scientology would be somewhat low on the list. So, too, would be the malfeasance of the Bush administration. Impending water and food shortages are at the top, followed by mitigating the effects of the changing climate, and finding workable, non-polluting alternatives to fossil fuels. Regardless, there's no reason whatsoever that this criminal cult should be permitted to keep operating." ... By Ign R. Amis Posted Saturday 26th April 2008 15:33 GMT
Some would posit that 42 Fix the Criminalisation of the US Constitution by its Administrative Executives [and there would be any number of them engaged in that Perverse and Subversive Conspiracy to be Top Gun/Dog] would surely cure all Ills, Ign R. Amis.
As you have rightly said, it is all a matter of Prioritizing and dealing with the nastiest little bugs first, and starting Top Down allows for the Poison Flow/Supply to be stopped and Full Body Recovery to Begin Immediately.
MeThinks also there's no reason whatsoever that this criminal cult should be permitted to keep operating...... for it is costing a Nation its Dignity, Wealth and Reputation and Driving it into a Deep and Damaging Depression and Recession.
Where are the Patriots whenever Madness roams the Plains and White Housed Lawns and Dogged Rose Gardens?
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