Only in 'Murcca...
The dateline on this story is 2nd April
I hope it's a day late but if it's true, it beggars belief.
The Oregon man who was born a woman, had his breasts removed as part of a gender reassignment but retained his female reproductive organs and then got up the duff, much to the amazement of just about everyone, will prove he's pregnant by flashing some ultrasound scan proof at Oprah Winfrey on Thursday. Thomas Beatie, of Bend, …
Come on, it could be Jerry. Or Ricki. Or Montel.
We've done this one before (lots of interesting and incisive comments on there too). Should have been a candidate for standard comments. Feel free.
1) How many times? It's a woman, not a man, and for some reason I can't quite pinpoint the fact that she is trying to make everyone believe she's a bloke when she's not makes me incandescently angry.
2) Gender reassignment is a complex issue and no one undergoes the process lightly. Give them a break.
3) Why is this news?
Paris, because she looks a bit mannish doesn't she, really, in a weird way
4) I always suspected Oprah was born with 'a bit extra'
Mines the unisex one
If you have an innie down below and not an outie then you are female. And as stated above gender is decided by chromosomes so if it is xx then it is not a man giving birth. He may be psychologically speaking a man, but under definition of sex biologically speaking he is actually a woman.
on this one.
SHE is a WOMAN.
"Gender reassignment is a complex issue and no one undergoes the process lightly. Give them a break."
And going on "Oprah" makes them (Where did the 'they' come from anyhoo) liable for a 'break'
It makes them an even bigger target.
This whole thing is really weird and sick.
As previously said "Only in America".
They're not doing anyone any harm so why is how he identifies himself so important to some people? He could say "I'm a pregnant llama" and it still wouldn't make any difference in your life.
Get over it and wish them a successful pregnancy and a healthy child.
Raising a kid is expensive. Hope they make a ton of money off the gawping yokels.
The penguin because it's cute and cuddly and suitable for a child.
It's déja vu all over again Boo Boo! I thought we had already done this one to death a few days ago, the most incisive comment for me being "If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, then it's a duck".
Now if Oprah decided to interview that bloke from Ohio who got caught making sweet furniture love to his picnic table four times in one and a half hours, that would be worth seeing.
Paris, because despite Ms Bee's comment above, she's 110% woman. Although I must admit that if I ever did meet her I would be tempted to ask her if she's got any Scotsman in her just so, when she said no, I could follow up with the line "Aye, well, would you like some then". It's never worked for me yet, but here's hoping.
Just because he's Female doesn't mean he's not a man. I bet that if you met him in the street (pre or post pregnancy) you wouldn't know any differently. After all, apart from the dangly bits, what actually makes a male a man? Oh, yeah, it's their outlook, attitude, and such like on life. The body is a very important secondary part of the psycology.
Personally I hope that the pregnancy goes well, and that they both have a lovely child.
"Just because he's Female doesn't mean he's not a man"
YES IT DOES!
Genetically 'He' will ALWAYS BE FEMALE.
AFAIK there is NO medical procedure that will endow this person with fully functional testicles, capable of producing sperm bearing 'his' half of the chromosome pairings. SHE is bearing a child due solely to the fact that HER reproductive organs were never removed.
On a lighter note, I anticipate that higher than average therapy bills will be incurred by all parties concerned.
I hope everyone appreciates the sheer force of will it is taking for me not to weigh in.
But, seriously, can all the hopper-up-and-downers explain exactly why they are so incensed? Do they even really know? And please don't pretend it's because you care about the future of the child.
Tsk, that's torn it. Next thing you know I will be eating chocolate.
It's a woman. It's a woman with serious mental issues. It's a woman with serious mental issues who happens to have had rather a lot of elective cosmetic surgery.
It's a woman with serious mental issues who happens to have had rather a lot of elective cosmetic surgery and is pregnant.
Come on, ffs... if I believed with all my being that I was a sheep, and had surgery to make me look like a sheep... that doesn't actually MAKE me a sheep!
"I bet that if you met him in the street (pre or post pregnancy) you wouldn't know any differently."
You couldn't even tell if he was in the maternity ward pushing a human being out of his penis... oh wait... ouch!
<standard_comment id="2">Gender reassignment is a complex issue and no one undergoes the process lightly. Give them a break. </standard_comment>
A little compassion is given - for I fear Sarah Bee is losing faith in the El Reg readership. :)
I also choose the omni-gendered tux icon... as he/she must have been through this sort of decision too....
To all the self-proclaimed geneticists posting, if you knew more about embryonic/fetal development, you might realize there is more to gender than XX vs XY (nevermind how you guys would describe Turner's Syndrome i.e., XO) The presence of a Y chromosome is not solely what makes one male. The Y chromosome triggers the production of hormones during gestation, which in turn lead to what we typically think of as male offspring. However, if you remove those signals from the mix (in the case of an XY) or add them (in the case of XX) - things are no longer so clear cut. And this does happen outside the laboratory, in utero, for a variety of reasons.
A lot of people seem to be confusing biological sex with gender.
Gender, e.g. what it is "to be a [real] man" or to "be a [real] women" is a social construct. Some cultures have a 3rd gender, for example. Anyone can see how the concept of mascalinity & feminitiy has changed within W.european culture in the last 60 years or so.
Quite a few people also seem to have been skiving from biology lessens at school too. People can have YY chromosone combination (e.g. Kray twins) as well as XX and XY. Remember also that, technically every foetus starts with XX (bilogically female), and ~50% *mutate* into XY later during gestation...
There's also a certain % of people born heamaphrodite (innie AND an outie to use a previous poster's terminology) - though normally the effin` doctor will perform a quick bit of surgery to "fix" this, often without telling the parents...
It's news because it's an unusual situation, also that American culture is generally extremely conservative and there's a scandal aspect. Going on Oprah, well, I hope they're getting paid enougth to pay for the kid's education later...
dervheid: "I'm with the genetics... "
Yeah, there was a bunch of people in Germany a few decades ago who were big into genetic determinsm too...
I draw your attention to an item in today's Indie (Cookinu Up a Storm), where if you put chocolate in your mouth but pinch your nose, you don't taste anything cos chocolate is a flavour not a taste.
And vice versa with salt.
It may be a belated april fool, but if you're going to experiment with choccies perhaps you could do some research and do an item.
Especially as we (the loyal El Reg readership) NEED TO KNOW...
Your tired? I was not exactly aware that this person calling themselves a man was putting any particular burden upon you. Unless you are singly responsible for maintaining the official sex of everyone in the world. Oh that's right your not, its none of your business what someone wishes to be called. Are you people channelling Bernard Manning from beyond the grave?
Whats that? Your not a racialist!? Just because it does not have a liberation movement yet does not make it fair game for you morons.
"To all the self-proclaimed geneticists posting, if you knew more about embryonic/fetal development, you might realize there is more to gender than XX vs XY (nevermind how you guys would describe Turner's Syndrome i.e., XO) The presence of a Y chromosome is not solely what makes one male."
As I understood it, there is no known intersex condition that creates a child capable of bearing children as a mother. AIS takes a genetic male and makes him look female, but without ovaries, whereas exposing a genetically female embryo to excessive testosterone in utero causes the development of the ovaries to cease, hence infertility, and an almost-penis to grow.
The fact that this man can conceive shows that the woman who went to the doctor to ask for the operation had no diagnosable physical disorder, which makes it a very grey area indeed.
We're back to that thorny "dysphoria" vs "dysmorphia" debate....
I'm a little confused as to how junior is coming out. Don't they, erm, re-engineer some of the plumbing? I'd be guessing a Caesarean will be the order of the day; however, I'd imagine that there would be significant problems in the event of a miscarriage. Also, aren't hormonal adjustments one of the main things involved in gender reassignment? Could an atypical hormonal balance cause issues in foetal development?
Confused, slightly disturbed and fascinated all at once...
".. can all the hopper-up-and-downers explain exactly why they are so incensed?"
They are jealous - want to get the op too (other direction) but even then they can't get preggies. Didn't you ever wonder why IT geeks have long hair and wimpy muscles? And it's really a give-away when they start to get fat and stop caring about their appearance...
Anonymous because I value my life :-)
Ahem, yes I should have written XYY, not YY. (There's also various other uncommon sex chromosome combinations, it's not just XX or XY)
The Y chromosome doesn't take effect until ~week 10 of development IIRC, thus the embryo is at least genderless prior to this point - my "mutate" expression was a Valerie S. inspiried polemic :-) Thanks for the correction though.
Oy! How come you get FIVE comments in just one story? Yeah, I know ... favouritism cos you're a girl (a real one, we assume).
Also, your comments here are too sensible: stop making sense* because us commentards prefer it when you talk dirty (see comments here:
*copyright Talking Heads
She is a she, genetically and mechanically i.e. got all the right plumbing.
Just because she has had her tits chopped off & calls herself Thomas (or whatever) doesn't make her a bloke.
Therefore, as had been said above, shock horror, woman gets pregnant.
Feminisation/masculinisation can be achieved at a hormone level, regardless what bits you may/may not be packing in yer pants, doesn't suddenly make you a true male/female.
Load of old tosh really.
And regarding the pinch your nose & not taste malarky: Your sense of "taste" is mostly based on smell, get a cold, lose your sense of taste & smell. Yes yes, before anyone says, you do have taste buds on your tounge for sweet/sour etc but thats nowt to do with flavour "taste".
The IT angle lies in what is revealed about the tech/IT population (which, much to the chagrin of many, I'm sure, is a pretty good reflection of the general population).
There is the (too large) group which loves rules. They seem to have gravitated to IT because of it provides a psychologically safe haven (rule based life). They can be seen at User Groups etc. trying to impress each other with their knowledge of obscure little rules and their ability to apply them and their 'we're all in this together and against the idiots (any non-techie)' attitude. This group tends to be socially conservative (this surprised me when I started attending) though they're seldom aware of this. They are great for drudge work. You don't want them anywhere near designing user interfaces (users: idiots who don't know the rules).
Then there is the smaller group - those who were drawn by a sense of awe and wonder and possibility. They don't like rules - at least not those advocated by the general tech population. Perhaps it isn't so much that they don't like rules as that they see them at most as momentarily useful tools. If they are even aware of the rules. They tend to be very pragmatic. The Techie-drudge population see this group as somewhat flakey.
This second group are the innovators, the ones who see possibilities outside the rules. They tend not to worry about definitions and see everything as a possible source of new ideas. Their technical proficiency and open-mindedness can lead them to do things that make people ask 'How did they ever come up with that'. Their 'everything is interesting' attitude makes them much more accepting than the drudges and far more interesting to be around.
Obviously there are going to be some crossovers - but very, very few, in my experience.
Boy oh boy am I detecting some insecurities here?!? Are people acting so aggressively because of the possibility that this 'person' is more of a man/woman than they?
Way to go Sarah for interjecting; albeit over aggressively and way to go chocolate guy for calming her down (see fellas it does work:-). I was starting to worry about my urges to ask Sarah out for a coupla pints, as she was swinging(no pun intended) so hard for this 'person' that I wondered if there was some personal experience, of an undetermined direction, involved:-)(I'd better throw a smiley there, huh?)
Anyhoos enough trying to regale Sarah with my manly humor. I really would like to know why noone has mentioned the partner in all of this. How hard can it be when your husband is more of a mother than you (cue all you guys with jokes about your wives calling you mothers:-) Then there's the kid and the real daddy the sperm donor - "Mommy why don't I look like you?". I'm not going to jack-off in a booth now as I don't know what they're going to stick my fellas in. I wonder if there will be a drop in donation rates; as I'm sure these generous donors are thinking of cute 100% female babe recipients?
Other philosophical questions not covered:-
Are they getting any jolly from jollies and how?
Breastfeeding? Preggers daddy has been mastectomised so are they going to slip mommy some hormones and get her lactating? Will daddy still have some wierd lactation?
It did not say but is easily assumed daddy's eggs(if he's still producing) were fertilised. Or?...they invitro-fertilised one of mommy's still produced (?dunno if hysterectomy removes ovaries and womb) or even frozen eggs.
Questions, questions, questions. There are tons more but I think I've shown enough sensitivity to ask Sarah out on a date and tell her I won't be holding my nose whilst licking chocolate syrup from her neck and shoulders:-) Now if she breaks wind!!!!I might have to.
Sorry Sarah, I couldn't resist; although allow me to state to ElReg's leaders that I'm impressed with your bravery here.
Love'n'kisses Stu (fully XY, testicularised, and male pig:-)
Some narrowminded people here.
If HE has taken testosterone, had the minimum amount of gender-reassignment necessary to 'change sex' in his state, has paid the exorbitant fees to do so, and identifies as such, then HE is now a MAN.
All of you crying "Wah wah she still has female genitals, so is a woman", do realise that reconstructive genital surgery for FTM transsexual can cost upward of $50k don't you?
So, let's add it up. At *least* one year of weekly therapy at $50-200 a session, to be given 'permission' to start hormones. Hormone shots monthly at around $90 while saving up for 'top' surgery ($10k approx, for surgery and related costs).
A hysterectomy and oophorectomy runs to about £35k, then add in about $50k for genital reconstruction. Chuck in a miscellaneous few grand for legal fees, name change etc, and the total cost is quite high, yes? With most insurance providers in the US not covering any of the costs associated with transitioning, it's not exactly a cheap process.
So maybe you can understand why if he looks like a man, talks like a man, is legally a man, he doesn't feel the need to drop $70k on 'lower' surgery just to feel 'complete'? Sure the hysto will protect him from cancers caused by Testosterone shots interfering with 'female' organs, but who the hell has that sort of money lying around spare? And I bet most FTM transsexuals would *love* to have a 'real' penis, but as their $50 grand won't really get them much, will cause them to lose most sexual sensation, could render them incontinent etc etc, you can see why most are holding out for a better solution somewhere down the line?
Oh and btw, Thomas Beattie is *far* from the first FTM to give birth to a kid post-transition, there have been at least 2 here in the UK!
Now furries... they're another kettle of fish, why not mock people who think they're foxes instead, or atakin who believe they're Sonic the Hedgehog?
so someone without fully functional testies is not a man? Wow, going to have to go get my husband fitted for a bra soon in that case (he is clinically infertile).
is the opposite true? does a woman without the ability to bare children = a man? I'm sure there are plenty of girls out there who have had hysterectomies who need to be told they are really blokes.
i mean really.... that is the most misogynistic BS I have ever seen. Women especially have been fighting for HOW LONG not to be seen as just walking baby makers, yet people in this tread seem to see nothing wrong with equating a human being as nothing more then a DNA factory.
If anyone watches Mr Garrisons Fancy New Vagina I think we can clear this all up. The point is that the person wants to be a man but 'he' will never really be a true man. However if he/she is happy whats the problem? As regards the pregnancy, as long as the doctors give the go ahead there is no major problems whatsoever.
Gay couples raise children and the children are fine as long as they have loving, caring parents. That said the child is being born into a family where it will have a dad and mum (though of course under very different circumstances!) who care. I say good luck to them. As for everyone else quibbling over the genetics of dad there is little point to be made there. Yes we know dad is biologically a woman but he has had the (pardon the pun) balls to change himself from a woman to a man so what right has anyone to say to them as a couple they cant have a child when there is a good family structure there (abet different)
how many guys would be willing to give birth if their partner was unable - I wouldn't, I'd rather let the human race die out first, I'm THAT selfish (ask my other half), ergo, she's a lesbian who likes extreme makeover.
dysmorphia :-) what a bitchin' word, I love that.
But in all seriousness, good luck to the couple, and their baby. It doesn't matter what makes you happy, just so long as you are - where it doesn't hurt another, unless they like it. Peace out.
God! is Oprah still going? The smiley 'cause it feels good...
And what about us Chimeras, are we "both", or "neither", or would you just prefer we don't exist making people's cozy little world of definitions less complicated?
People confuse gender and sex all the time - but when it comes to genetic intersex, the nice little black and white world people would like comes crashing down around their ears.
But at the end of the day, why should *anyone* care? The story is silly enough to quality for El Reg, but does it really matter to the people who have posted with such ... "authority"?
Icon for obvious reasons.
Hey, Stuart - I'm really quite flattered. And you noticed that whole chocolate thing! Seems like my lessons are paying off - if I can pass online, then surely I'm nearer to being a convincing female in real life? Just need to perfect that wiggle, and the girlish giggle... tee hee! Need to tone down the aggression, though, thanks for pointing that out. Maybe drop a few IQ points?
I should say there's no bravery required to pop into comments and point out that people are acting like excrement-flinging apes. But then, since I started on the hormones I have found myself being a little more timid... almost as if I really need a man to defend me. Fortunately, I've hung onto some of my relevant bits (just seemed prudent, you know), and so when required I can bar-brawl with the best of them!
So, having proven you're sufficiently open-minded, how about that drink? Mine's a pint of best with a Malibu chaser! Tee hee!
Since you ask; chimeras can be categorised according to their chromosomes, same as the rest of us. If they are found to be truly party male and partly female, then by definition they will be partly both and fully neither. What's the problem?
Why ask inappropriate questions about whether folk don't want you to exist? The issue here is not just about gender, it is about being honest and not claiming up is down, or left is right, or slavery is freedom, or green is red, or in is out, etc. One either wants falsehoods to be perpetrated and accepted in society, or one prefers honesty and sees dishonesty as wrong.
The difference between males and females is more than physical. Females think differently, act differently to how males do - men and women are not the same.
How do you define someone who looks like a woman but thinks like a man? Someone who, essentially, is a man trapped inside a woman's body.
Clearly there's a lot that medical science doesn't understand about what defines gender in the first place and why some people seem to be inbetween, but I'd say (and the general medical profession seems to share my view here) that the emotional and mental take precedence over the physical - therefore, if someone has a female body, but thinks like a man, acts like a man, and believes himself to be a man, then he is a man and that's all there is to it.
The peculiarity of this story isn't so much the fact that a man is pregnant, because obviously he was born a female, but more that he chose to retain parts of his female anatomy whilst choosing to live as a male, and then chose to become pregnant.
His wife is lucky though - how many women have expressed a desire for their male partners to experience childbirth?
"does a woman without the ability to bare children = a man"
Women = paedos. All of them.
Seriously though, we need to lay off. I don't like them taking it onto Oprah or getting as much publicity as they have, but only because it calls into question their ability to be good parents imho. All the best to them, if they ARE good parents, I'm sure everything will be fine.
Women with male DNA and men with female DNA occur commonly and nobody deems them to be the opposite sex because unless someone took a cell biopsy how would they know?
I'm with the other definition. This person has an innie and is thus female. Having small or no breasts ... well, those brazilian men who get implants so they can perform in drag are still men.
I'm with the other definition. This person has an innie and is thus female. Having small or no breasts ... well, those brazilian men who get implants so they can perform in drag are still men.
Great so when I get my SRS I will be a women .but those poor FTM will never be men.
OH by the way Lack of DHT in the womb will make a genetic male develop as female. No penis no testicles.
Yes he was born a woman - yes he's had gender reassignment surgury. What REALLY matters is how this individual identifies himself. He gets to choose because it's his body and he's not insane.
If everyone would just mind their own bloody business maybe significant chages could be made towards oh..i don't know...world peace - ending world hunger - raising responsible, considerate children, rather than belittling a man for wanting to raise a family with his wife. Just a thought.