Excellent news. The new location of Sodom and Gomorrah gives the Austrians an extra wedge of street cred.
A slice of Wiener schnitzel and <cough> something for the weekend.
Gates - the origin sod from gomorrah
A Cuneiform clay tablet which for over 150 years defied attempts at interpretation has now been revealed to describe an asteroid impact which in 3123 BC hit Köfels, Austria, leaving in its wake a trail of destruction which may acccount for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Planisphere clay tablet. Pic: Bristol …
OK, a little off the topic
The British Museum has another tablet which lists the cities of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim, and Lasha in the exact order as in the bible. Prior to the discovery of this, historian's views were that Genesis was not written at the time, but the order of listing such towns was important as they were the trading importance of the towns, which was known at the time, but lost thereafter
See Genesis 10:19
However, I'm glad to see modern computing unravelling the vast knowledge held in those cuneiform tablets
Why do I have a very happy feeling you've got me sucked right in , I'll just set the HG Wells time machine with the co-ordinates 36 degree 24 minutes north latitude and 25 degrees 24 minutes east longitude and the timer to dawn April 1st 1600 BCE for a ring side seat for the greatest event in Minoan History , now that will truly be a blast !
This being an ancient language I expect they misread "squiggly line" as "wiggly line". It should have been translated "Dear Diary, I have managed to move my telescope so I can see into the bedroom of the fit bird opposite my house. In the name of the holy Sun God I must declare: phwoooaarr."
Paris because five thousands years from now Confessions Of An Heiress will be mistranslated as an academic study of cosmic radiation.
I love the fact a complete lack of archaeological evidence for either city ever having existed, doesn't get in the way of a media-friendly theory about their destruction. A shame they didn't go so far as to explain the halification of Lot's wife, but perhaps that's a follow up paper.
BTW. We all know about what was meant to be happening in Sodom, but what the hell was going on in Gomorrah?
The first of the "five cities of the plain" mentioned in Genesis, of which Sodom and Gomorrah were two, was discovered at Bab edh-Dhra, Jordan in 1924 by William Foxwell Allbright, but only later found to be an Early Bronze Age city. Four other Early Bronze Age settlements have since been found in a line southward, though they have yet to be excavated. Despite further searching, only five settlements of this period were found, corresponding the the "five cities of the plain".
Evidence that the settlements were destroyed by fire and not resettled for two thousand years has been found at Bad edh-Dhra and at least one of the other sites.
Also, the destruction of Sodom was discussed by many classical writers, including the Greek geographer Strabo and the Roman historian Tacitus in the 1st century BC. Both stated that the story was widely believed, and that the remains of the cities could still be seen. According to the Jewish historian Josephus, writing in the 1st century AD, "... there are still marks of that Divine Fire, and the traces of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes of their growing fruits; ... [which] if you pluck them ... dissolve into smoke and ashes. So what is told about the land of Sodom is confirmed by the evidence of our eyes."
Source: "Ancient Mysteries" by Peter James and Nick Thorpe, ISBN 0-345-43488-9
Sorry Spleen! It looks like your Paris got turned into a pillar of salt. She probably wasn't looking back at the city so much as she was checking to see if the shift she was wearing made her ass look fat.
And no, it's not your clothes that make your ass look fat, honey. It's having your head in there. Or others....
"...a religious type, usually protestant, who is one or more of the following closeminded, generally intolerant, right wing, homophobic, creationists, anti-evolution, believers in bible inerrancy, American etc etc"
One or more.. so being American alone is sufficient? No "general intolerance" or "closemindedness" shown there by the sneering party above, then.
I hate getting into a theological debate on an IT website but it has already begun so...
if the bible is truely so nonsensical and inaccurate, then why is it when completely rational, non-bible believing people give it an honest openminded effort to disprove the bible once and for all they end up believing it? If you don't believe that this can happen check out www.leestrobel.com, that is if you aren't so closedminded that you can't even give a competing viewpoint a chance. This website just happens to be the most public example of this, there are many more.
PS I think the reason why Sodom and Gomorrah haven't been found is that God completely destroyed them. I'll wager though that the map that shows the exact former location of the cities is sitting in some museum.
There are some who believe they must be helped to become 'clear' of the confused Thetans attached to them after Lord Xenu tried a rather extreme solution to intergalactic overpopulation.
Doesn't make them right of course.
But then, as a member of the 4th or 5th Invasion Fleet of the Marcab Confederation, I would say that wouldn't I?
How do they know it's a copy and not just an early example of a fake put in place deliberatly?
Even if it was a copy, how were the Sumerians able to date (and verifiy as genuine) the original?
I'll take the fire proof jacket and any spare asbestos you have lying around..
Anonymous 'cus religous nuts are scarier than black helicopters
"non-bible believing people give it an honest openminded effort to disprove the bible once and for all they end up believing it"
INFECTIOUS MEME CONTAINER!!!
Don't open. Burn on sight. Put anyone who has come in contact into quarantine. Lethal force may be used if deemed necessary.
(Yeah, I was educated by Catholics. Also, my sex life sucks.)
"I love the fact a complete lack of archaeological evidence for either city ever having existed, doesn't get in the way of a media-friendly theory about their destruction."
Well, I guess they are not trying to prove the existence of the cities, but the source of the legend. If some city (or cities) was destroyed in the event, it would sure be something otherworldly to people at the time. Another example that I slightly remember reading about is the hypothesized creation of the Black Sea, when a big flood ensued when sea levels were raised after the glacial period, or something like that. Imagine what people would say about that those days. Might have inspired the legend of the "universal" flood of the Bible (of which nobody out of that region of the world, e.g. China, Americas or even Africa, heard of in those days). Some blokes with their families and goats on boats would easily be Noahs...
"if the bible is truely so nonsensical and inaccurate, then why is it when completely rational, non-bible believing people give it an honest openminded effort to disprove the bible once and for all they end up believing it?"
And I bet that you would define "completely rational" people giving an "honest open minded" effort as only those who end up believing all the crap that is in there. Whomever doesn't is necessarily either not completely rational or honest or open minded, for sure... Like the millions who did the opposite journey of finally reading the thing and seeing what is actually written there -- the best way to make someone skeptical of "sacred" texts is to get them to really read them completely and by themselves (and not have some shaman pick and choose what fits the moral and knowledge of the day), I've noticed.
"if the bible is truely so nonsensical and inaccurate, then why is it when completely rational, non-bible believing people give it an honest openminded effort to disprove the bible once and for all they end up believing it?"
Because completely rational people want to make money, and are perfectly happy to milk people who don't know any better. You can tell them any story you want, and as long as it ends in "I found God" they'll buy it. "I woke up one morning and decided that I could make lots of money by writing a short book about apologetics" doesn't draw crowds the same way. You have any idea how much money Lee Stroebel makes off of those "The Case for [X|Y|Z]" books? They aren't even bought by non-religious or doubting types for the most part, they're bought by avid churchgoers to reaffirm what they already believe.
It's irrational to NOT write feelgood books to people who you already know are going to agree with you, and thus buy more of your 100-page-tossed-together-in-a-week-of-reviewing-some-biblical-passages drivel. Plus, since it's churchy and good, so you get paid to go on the Hour of Power and pitch your book to hundreds of millions of people worldwide who fit the prior description, and will buy your books for 10 bucks a pop.
Jaded, me? Guess I just know too much.
Mmm... maybe God built the universe to *look* as though it elegantly operates on the emergent properties of the simple fields and particles from which we *think* it's constructed, whereas in fact it's a hugely complicated bodge full of patches, fix-ups, special purpose code, and epicycles. If so, He's a) a sadist and b) laughing up His Sleeve right now, and c) wearing a Scary Clown suit whilst riding back and forth on one of His Epicycles. And tooting a horn.
Have you ever thought of *that*?
"...how were the Sumerians able to date (and verifiy as genuine) the original?"
the article doesn't say they did - the computer program used the relative positions of the stellar objects depicted to work out the date (presumably using some form of precession based calculation)
just because the civilisations were ancient doesn't mean they were populated by idiots (or paris, bless her cotton socks!)
So that you know where my comment is coming from, I will start by saying that I am a Christian; I am also studying to be a pastor.
I wanted to point out that believing in God or in the Bible has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence. Many people far more intelligent than I (and likely you though I don't know you) deny the authenticity of the Bible, and many others who fall into that same category affirm that the Bible is God's Word.
I would also add that, for many of these people, their decision to believe or disbelieve had nothing to do with open or closed-mindedness. I am quite sure that many who did not want to believe in God ended up believing in Him, and I am just as certain that many who were seeking after God ended up denying Him.
So all the name-calling and jockeying for intellectual standing leads to nothing, because even as the Bible teaches, its message is foolishness to unbelievers and the very wisdom and power of God to those who believe. The Gospel is about God's love calling out to us, not our intellect.
<quote>...a religious type, usually protestant, who is one or more of the following closeminded, generally intolerant, right wing, homophobic, creationists, anti-evolution, believers in bible inerrancy, American etc etc</quote>
Now please explain what a non-religous nut is. An explanation of yourself should suffice.
I find it interesting that the "non-believers" out there feel so insecure about their own beliefs/lack thereof that they must resort to bashing those who do adhere to any religion. Is religion bashing perhaps a new sport? I also find it amusing that they are overly eager to point to the events of the past that paint religion as the source of all evils while blissfully ignoring/failing to mention that people who despised religion in all its forms also committed some less than flattering acts, Stalin comes to mind, though there are others.
Even more amusing than that I find the fact that most of the cricizing is done by anonymous cowards. Are you so ashamed of what you believe that you are unwilling to put your names behind what you say? Perhaps you need to hide because you fear recrimination for your childish insults? I am not ashamed of what I believe so I am not afraid to put my name to it, that does not mean I agree with everything done in the name of God, because as we all know that turn of phrase has been used to "justify" some things that are just wrong.
Again to any posters whos name really is Anonymous Coward my apologies, to those who name is not but still use it, grow some backbone!
No, it's just that the rationally minded non-believers understand that the belief in the existence of a supernatural omnipotent entity generally known as God is simply absurd. It all stems from ancient man worshipping the Sun. And from one man's need/desire to control others.
There's certainly many good things, useful lessons and ripping yarns in these collection of 'holy' texts. They are also filled with some utter tripe. But to believe in a God? It's quite silly if you really put your mind to it.
Perhaps something becomes of our consciousness after death, becoming a part of something else, but that's an entirely different matter. Either we'll find out about that upon death or we won't. Either way, we won't be able to tell the tale.
People who believe in God are seriously in need of a mental health evaluation.
"Might have inspired the legend of the "universal" flood of the Bible (of which nobody out of that region of the world, e.g. China, Americas or even Africa, heard of in those days)"
Umm... no. The "Universal Flood" also appears in the Mayan "Popol Vuh". Given the distance, there may have been some extreme climate change that made the water level rise?
The planet we all live on is still pretty much exactly the same as it was thousands of years ago. It's us that change.
If a giant asteroid were to come crashing down to earth, we (most) wouldn't say "Oh no God is sending his wrath", we would say "Oh no a giant asteroid" because we know better.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that all these old texts ie: the bible, are filled with events that, people back in those days, had no explanation for and thus of course it must be the wrath of a god etc.
We as a people need to wake up and start believing in each other instead of the rants and misunderstandings of our ancestors.
Just like to point out that proving events that exist in the bible are historically accurate is not quite the same as proving that god exists-he sent his only son-blah blah blah.
A metorite destroying Sodom and Gomorrah is fine but that doesn't prove that god exists or that he sent said metorite, just that when people of the time looked at what was left of the sodomites they maybe though twice about accidently popping it in the "wrong" hole incase "god" smote them too ;)
"If a giant asteroid were to come crashing down to earth, we (most) wouldn't say "Oh no God is sending his wrath", we would say "Oh no a giant asteroid" because we know better."
Not if you are a 'merkin right-wing born-again evangelist zealot. You'd be saying: “Oh no, God is sending his wrath”.
We can sit around and study small circles of stone forever (even coming up with hundreds of meanings - as one chap did from Azerbaijan I believe, suggesting that this great event related to some sort of inter-stellar vehicle...)
Ultimately any quasi-religious link between archaelogical findings and events/places that are still subject to people's opinions will never settle the issue.
More importantly the Bible discusses many hundreds of facets of history and science that have been proved true. If we stop making assumptions based on our long-held views that because many religious leaders have lied/cheated/stolen this makes the Bible wrong or that science is absolutely right 100% of the time - which it damn-sure aint - then we will see that the Bible has more impact on us now than we care to give it credit for.
To the "religious nuts" out there: remember not all doctrine and belief is in the Bible - that should tell you something.
To the "religious nut"-haters out there: remember that there are some things that science will never be able to explain. It takes more faith to believe a theory than it does to look at a simple explanation and make your own mind up. It's often the simplest solution that gets thought of last
People seem to forget that the Bible is not just a collection of writings from the apostles but was also reviewed, redrafted and censored in by the Romans 325 years after teh death of Christ in order to set a uniform Christian doctrine, with one leading body (the Church) dictating the terms of belief to believers and forcing the rest of the Empire to convert. It's easier to control an empire that way than letting everyone celebrate their own religion.
Also, let's not forget the Bible has had 2008 years of existence, coupled with Vatican dictatorship, Spanish inquisitions, persecution of scientists and doctors for centuries, forced conversion of infidels in colonised countries, and finally with the president of the most military powerful country in the world handing out god bless america left right and center.
Suffice to say, that's enough to put doubts into anyone's mind...
...the Great God, is real.
I saw him in a dream once after reading Small Gods... which must mean that I am his prophet... hence, hear my Prophecy!
"Yer all gonna die."
Anyways- ascribing causes after the fact is as easy as claiming to be psychic and speaking in specialized semantics. Hmmm... making a prophecy pointing to a know and absolute fact, is stupid.
The article is lovely in the graphic details of the crash and the events following it.. but the obvious misuse of Sodom & Gor* is dishonest and should be frowned on. (Really twist those brows and make Mr Potatoheads' Angry Eyes.)
Then we can go on with the rest of this day and enjoy our coffee, electric lights, big cities and high tech gadgets while smiling upon the Wise and Mystic Ancients, who in their Glory, had absolutely nothing on us- really- we are living in the Greatest Age of Man.
But then again...
Nuts go well with beer- so we should be careful before we say they are Not Worthy of our Attention or cultivation!
Hmm... more coffee... I feel my Math Co-Processor overheating (i486)
The Bible has always been proven by archeology to be historically and scientifically accurate, when it touches upon those subjects.
It never starts out: "once upon a time, in a far away place"... but rather always gives specific dates, places, and names of people, etc. This is very different to mythology, which never gives specifics.
Take as an example the Babylonian King Belshazzar spoken of in Daniel Chapter 5. For the longest time, historians doubted the existence of Belshazzar, because he wasn't spoken of in secular history. Secular historians new of Nabonidus as the ruler, not a Belshazzar. Turns out, that archeologists turned up some writings dated at that time, called the "Nabonidus Chronicle" that corroborates the existence of Belshazzar... turns out Belshazzar and Nabonidus had a kind duel rulership. During the events spoken of in Daniel 5, Nabonidus was out of town, with Belshazzar left in charge. This is also why, Belshazzar could only offer the 'third position' in power, and not the second position, for deciphering the hand writing on the wall (Read Daniel chapter 5). Very interesting reading no matter what you believe.
One more example... this time on scientific accuracy. Check out Isaiah 40:22 and Job 26:7... how did the Bible writers know the shape of the Earth, etc. at that time way before the invention the telescope and before Columbus sailed the world?
Thought you all would find this interesting.
I have deeply researched the Bible, and have found it to be true and accurate in all respects. I have come to believe that it truly is the word of God.
For those of you that believe in the Bible, but have not studied it and read it... you are blind. For those of you that do not believe in the Bible, but have also never read and studied it, you are ignorant. Too many people make flippant and uniformed comments on something they have never taken the time to study... I guess we can blame religion for that.
All religion that breeds hate, harbors terrorists, defends pedophiles, milks money from their parishioners to fund an extravagant lifestyle, gets involved in political affairs, and controls it's people through ignorance, superstition, & fear is from the Devil, not God. (Matthew 7:13-29 & 2 Corinthians 11: 13-15 & 1 Timothy 4: 1-3)
Yes, what the Bible really teaches, and what todays brands of religion teach are completely different things.
Today's churches act as political pulpits and provide refuge to the worst offenders in our society. They extort money from the masses for greedy selfish gain and do not even come close to providing spiritual enlightenment as taught from Scripture. Therefore, they should be taxed just like every other business, they should be held accountable for their actions, they should show proof of their teachings.
I agree with Ben Franklin & James Garfield:
"The divorce between Church and State ought to be absolute. It ought to be so absolute that no Church property anywhere, in any state or in the nation, should be exempt for equal taxation; for if you exempt the property of any church organization to that extent you impose a tax upon the whole community."
— James A Garfield, 20th U.S. President (1881)
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obligated to call for help of the civil power, it's a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin
Ok, since this discussion has evolved into a discussion of biblical accuracy, I must add my $0.02 worth.
Just as evolutionary theory, geology and astronomy have destroyed the scientific claims of the Pentateuch, so modern archaeology has methodically exposed the origins of these writings as Iron Age spin and propaganda, collected around the 7th century BCE to bolster the territorial ambitions of Jerusalem-based kings. No Exodus, no Golden Age of David and Solomon. Excavation has, for example shown that the towns identified in the Exodus story were not inhabited during the period when the events must have taken place- but they were inhabited later, during the 8th-7th centuries BC, when the stories were being crafted. In any case, identifying a 'biblical' site is one thing, but it doesn't prove the claimed events actually occurred or that historical personages did what was claimed, any more than future archaeologists discovering the site of Edwardian-era London would prove the existence of Mary Poppins.
This is why the straw man approach of Aaron is misleading. The Old Testament is not pure myth, but a mix of facts (for credibility), fancy and spin, setting out for its 7th century BC audience a 'Golden Age' that can be returned to by adopting a particular brand of faith (and also, naturally, the Jerusalem-based kings that champion it). This doesn't mean that the OT is always wrong, it just means that until its contents can be corroborated with other texts or excavation results, it's best treated as a massively-massaged folk story.
And yes, I've read the Bible, but i've read other books as well.
my fire and brimstone evangelical preacher from ones youth, insisted that that the issue was not with the debauchery of Sodom and Gommorah (much as it was) but the real and greater sin was that of the "pride of man" in so much he though he new best and ignored the will of God. There by God really and truelly shafted the said dwellers of the sea side towns.
oh, for a similar fate to Skegness and Rhyll
I read the bible. But i also read this book: The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. In 1970, the famed Dead Sea Scrolls scholar John Marco Allegro published a series of articles which which maintains that Christianity has its origins and nature in fertility cults of the Ancient near east centred on a sacred Mushroom. Allegro was a expert in Semitic languages and also studied Hebrew dialects. Extremely interesting reading, revealing hidden messages and codes within the Bible.
The gist of the theory is that pre-Jesus, religions were closed and secretive and difficult to join, namely because of intiation rituals and so forth. Then Jesus came along and told people that anyone could be part of his religion, that the only condition to entry was to repent and believe. It became a hugely popular religion, and all the other smaller religions struggled to survive. So they became Christians, and for fear of losing their own religious beliefs, hid the secrets of their practices within the Bible itself. One of these practives is the preparation of mushrooms for consumption and communion with God. Very interesting reading for those who have the interest.
There is a significant problem with this specific theory as the Kofels landslide / (Pseudo)impact is too old to the alleged impact that is allegedly described in the tablet. First, about the Kofels landslide, Hermanns et al. (2006) stated:
“Pieces of wood recovered from a reconnaissance gallery in the Tauferberg gave a conventional 14C age of 8710+/-150 years BP (Heuberger, 1966), and an AMS 14C age of 8705+/-55 years BP (Ivy-Ochs et al., 1998),”
If a person presume that the 700 BC date is calender years, the transformation of years C14 to calender years gives a calibrated date of 9683 ± 90 BP (about 9700 BP) for the Köfels landslide. Thus, in calender years, the landslide happene about 7,000 years before the cuneiform clay tablet was made and about 4,600 years before 3123 BC (5123 BP) when it is argued that the impact occurred. The Köfels landslide occurred thousand of years before either the tablet was argued to have been made, or the when the alleged impact was suppose to have occurred. The Köfels landslide is much too old to have any connection with any of them.
Hermanns, R., L. Blikra, M. Naumann, B. Nilsen, K. Panthi, D. Stromeyer, and O. Longva, 2006, Examples of multiple rock-slope collapses from Köfels (Ötz valley, Austria) and western Norway. Engineering Geology. vol. 83, no. 1-3, pp. 94-108.
Heuberger, H., 1966, Gletschergeschichtliche Untersuchungen in den Zentralalpen zwischen Sellrain-und Otztal. Wissenschaftliche Alpenvereinshefte. no. 20.
Ivy-Ochs, S., H. Heuberger, P. W. Kubik, H. Kerschner, G. Bonani, M. Frank, and C. Schluchter, 1998, The age of the Köfels event. Relative, 14C and cosmogenic isotope dating of an early Holocene landslide in the central Alps (Tyrol, Austria). Zeitschrift fur Gletscherkunde und Glazialgeologie. vol. 34, pp. 57–70.
Also, there is a discussion of the evidence for the Köfels landslide being an meteorite / comet impact in:
Deutsch, A., C. Koeberl, J.D. Blum, B.M. French, B.P. Glass, R. Grieve, P. Horn, E.K. Jessberger, G. Kurat, W.U. Reimold, J. Smit, D. stoffler, and S.R. Taylor, 1994, The impact-flood connection: Does it exist? Terra Nova. vol. 6, pp. 644-650.
They found a complete lack of any credible evidence for an impact having created the Köfels landslide. The alleged "shock quartz" found by earlier investigators was discredited as neither being "shock quartz" nor formed by an impact. The melted rock associated with this landslide was identified as "frictionite" created by frictional heat generated by the landslide, the largest in Europe as discussed by:
Erismann, T. H., 1977, Der bimsstein von Köfels impaktit oder friktionit?. Material und Technik. vol. 5, pp. 190–196. Erismann, T. H., H. Heuberger, and E. Preuss, 1977, Der Bimsstein von Köfels (Tirol), ein Bergsturz-“Friktionit. Mineralogy and Petrology. vol. 24, no. 1-2, pp. 67-119.
Masch, L., H. R. Wenk, and E. Preuss, 1985. Electron microscopy study of hyalomylonites-evidence for frictional melting in landslides. Tectonophysics. vol. 115, pp. 131–160.
These above studies clearly demonstrate that the estimated kinetic energy of the rock mass displaced by the landslide would have generated the heat necessary to melt the rock and form the “pumice”, which they called “frictionite”.
Sorenson et al. (2003) concluded:
“Analysis of the Köfels sturzstrom seems to indicate that most aspects can be explained without recourse to exotic emplacement scenarios. The bulk of the material resembles the debris from an energetic but conventional landslide.”
Sorensen, S.-A., and Berthold Bauer, 2003, On the dynamics of the Köfels sturzstrom. Geomorphology, vol. 54, no. 1-2, pp. 11-19.
Go look at "Cause effect models of large mass movements" at
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