Enraged vegan spitroasts Reg hack It was sort of inevitable really, but our recent revelation that vegetarians are in fact nothing more than fanatical, self-deceiving, protein-starved perversions of nature provoked a rather angry response from one Rachel Astill-Dunseith: There is absolutely no scientific evidence in this mans dellusional and fatuous claims. …
Lester,
Before airing your private flamings (or flaming privates) please consult:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/01/12/how_to_write_a_flame/
This diatribe fails to deliver the required quota of "deeply and personally abusive" and the grammar and spelling are far too good.
John
(...Still struggling to digest last nights massive pig feast. Damn tasty too)
I found the original article to be poking fun at Pravda, I don't know how this woman missed it. Or perhaps she's being satirical and we're all missing her joke!
But anyway, not all people with animal sympathies are crazy humourless fanatics. Some of us do it out of conviction, not just to look cool and feel superior to others! (Not me, though. I do it for the chicks.)
"As for the rest of the rant, we'll let it pass, except to say that it's a bit rich for someone with the surname "Astill-Dunseith" to have a pop about someone's else's moniker. 'Nuff said."
Suspicious name that, reads as "Ah still dont see it ", but then I am a veggie ( with a sense of humour )
Yes, the mink one please
Sorry, but anyone who tries to tell me I shouldn't eat meat, or use dairy is stupid, end of story.
I have canine teeth, as well as molars. I have access to large amounts of proteases, lactase, etc, etc, etc, to fully digest my meat, milk and vegetable diet.
People who don't have sufficient lactase - i.e oriental, black, etc - due to not having domesticated cows, and their genes for lactase shutting down in adolescence, fine, avoid milk, it will make you windy.
Other than that get of your insanely unfounded high horse and back off. Humans evolved to eat most things - and as we continue to evolve (albeit a lot slower), we will start to be able to eat even more things, including the damaged fats that are currently messing with us.
If you want to be vegan, fine, just don't pretend it's anything more than not wanting to hurt another living creature - which I'm fine with. The problem is it is very hard for vegans to get things like B12 - and despite their claims to being ubber healthy, the majority of vegans I have met look like death warmed up.
While standing at the butchery counter in our local farm store last Saturday, my 13 year old daughter (who is slim, smart, and sporty - all things that the Vegan community seem to think you can't be if you eat red meat and dairy products), gazed at the display of beef in front of us and said "Dad, doesn't that just make you glad you're not a vegetarian!"
Glad and proud to be an omnivore!
"How my vegan children and I will laugh from our intellectually and compassionately superior platform as he dies a slow death as his colon struggles to expurge his over burdoned diet of meat and dairy products."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yes, OK. These claims are as ridiculous as the originals! Intellectually and compassionately superior?? You've got to be joking...
Taken from Rachel's Google results: Profile on Label My Food Forum "I care about the environment, I care about animal welfare (Animal Welfarist), I am vegan"
She does seem to think all of us who eat meat are of a lower order. How to make friends and influence people?
"As for the rest of the rant, we'll let it pass, except to say that it's a bit rich for someone with the surname "Astill-Dunseith" to have a pop about someone's else's moniker. 'Nuff said."
Indeed! There's a pot/kettle thing going on for sure!
I also note that her iron and lard deficency has lead onto punctuation deficiency. With bearely a comma or apostrophe in the piece, I was struggling for breath.
And on a matter of pedantry, the proposition "black is white" is perfectly valid. It's the argument you use to prove it that has to be deemed valid or invalid.
I'm off to eat another rather nice meat and potato pie.
I can't be the only Reg-ular who sometimes gets the naughty urge to fabricate a diatribe in the hope of getting into the FoTW hall of fame, but then along comes one that demonstrates that there is really no substitute for the real thing.
"How my vegan children and I will laugh from our intellectually and compassionately superior platform..." - utterly classic!
or omnivores if you want to be pedantic.
We have carnivores teeth, hunters have eyes on the front of the skull to give good depth of field vision to better track their prey, the hunted have eyes on the side of the skull to give a wide field of vision to see the predators stalking them.
QED We are meat-eaters.
I wonder what vegans taste like?
Or roast penguin?
"How my vegan children and I will laugh from our intellectually and compassionately superior platform as he dies a slow death as his colon struggles to expurge his over burdoned diet of meat and dairy products." - hmmm... the compassion must be so superior that it doesn't extend to humans.
Nice of her to impose her views on what her children should be eating onto them. I doubt they got the opportunity to decide for themselves whether they wanted to be vegan having weighed up all the evidence for and against.
My girlfriend is a vegetarian, and it's not because she likes animals - she'd quite happily shoot a seal in the face - it's just she doesn't like the texture of meat when she chews (doesn't eat mushrooms because of this either). I don't eat fruit for exactly the same reason, so we don't have the "but not all meat/fruit have the same texture" argument.
If people want to be vegan/vegetarian/omnivore, let them. But in the same way as religion shouldn't be forced onto people, there's really no need to force people to eat or not eat something. Prices and availability will be a determining factor in many people's choice. We in the West are just fortunate there's a lot to choose from.
Paris, as I'm sure I've seen a video where she's eating something meaty....
"How my vegan children and I will laugh from our intellectually and compassionately superior platform as he dies a slow death as his colon struggles to expurge his over burdoned diet of meat and dairy products."
While we drive to the private school 200 yards away in our 4X4 to avoid the "common people" who walk.
Paris, cos even she has intelligence compared to this one
To the "anon coward" above, who clearly didn't look that far into wikipedia about carnassial teeth:
"The word "carnivore" sometimes refers to the mammalian Order Carnivora, but this is misleading. Although many Carnivora fit the first definition of being exclusively meat eaters, not all do. For example, bears are members of Carnivora that are not carnivores in the dietary sense, and pandas are almost exclusively herbivorous. Likewise, some full-time (dolphins, shrews) and part-time (humans, pigs) predatory species among mammals, let alone all carnivorous non-mammals, are not members of Carnivora." (Carnassials are the defining characteristic of the Carnivora order)
I'm hungry...
...she fed her children meat.
While being deeply concerned for the welfare of animals in modern intensive farming, she recognised that meat is quite simply the best way to give her growing children the protein they needed to build all that tissue rapidly.
On a side note, does anyone know the carbon rating of a leather-jacket vs a synthetic one? My leather jacket has outlasted a couple of plasticky ones so far, and I'm starting to think vegetarian clothing may be environmentally unfriendly....
Well she really did us (veggies) a favour there, allowing the usually meatist piss takers a good opportunity to have a go :-\
I'm a veggie, proud of it, happy about it, but what we all eat is our own choice, and ultimately our own problem. If you aks me I'll happily tell you why I think I'm right not to eat meat, but only if you ask. And I'll also explain to you why my kids are vegetarian too: yes by their parents' choice, but as a parent what else can you do but bring up your children in a way you believe to be right? We don't bring them up Muslim, Mormon, violent, or prejudiced, 'cos we're not. At some point they'll feel able to make those choices themselves, which will be another step on their road to individuality. I always find it interesting too that those bringing their own children up to eat meat don't consider THAT as imposing their own beliefs onto their kids.
And my original response to the Pravda article was to have a right chuckle! I think this lady needs to learn to chill A LOT...
While I've no problem with vegetarianism (although I'm not a vegetarian myself), the nutritional attitudes and behaviour of the vegans I've known has more closely resembled a type of obsessive-compulsive disorder, than a rational philosophy.
As for health and longevity, if that is a key goal just eat plenty of fish.
Besides, as some wag once wrote,
"There is not a single pleasure in life worth forgoing in order to obtain another couple of years in some Weston-super-Mare care home".
I wasn't designed and neither were the rest of us Humans, we have evolved as a species! Nothing pedantic about correctly identifying the digestive abilities of a species either; think why our canines have become almost useless, our need for animal protein is almost nil and I've never had to keep a prey item in sight whilst chasing it from the supermarket isle to a shopping trolley.
I myself have been vegetarian for about 13 years and I think it's pretty safe to say I'm not going to be dying of colon cancer but it's more likely you artificially-recovered "meat" eating chaps quite possibly will. I like the view from my superior platform as well!
Learn to spell by the way, it hurts my brain trying to figure out if you're all trying to write yoghurt (not yogurt), where (not were) etc etc (I like being able to spell but I guess I've got a N. Irish education to thank for that)
Nothing worse than Bunny Fascists, with their sanctimonious holier-than you attitude and their firm belief that no animal should be harmed by anything ever and that any dealings between humans and animals count as doing harm. And then they do stuff like RELEASING THOUSANDS OF MINK into an ecosystem that is in no way able to handle a foreign and unknown predator. Nice one, halfwits, that's a lot of animals saved there. Truly our society has become decadent beyond the call of usefulness if it can foster these talibunny extremists. First against the wall when the revolution comes.
Boy, even if I was religiously vegetarian, there would be no way for me to force my kids into that kind of diet. Even if it is just to spare myself endless dialogues like
"Father, father, why oh why am so sickly?"
"Because we denied you essential nutrients, son"
It's like "being cool" with them smoking the high grown canadian at 13. Go to hell, brain, you only good for trouble anyway...
frankly I don't give a rats if I get flamed for this so here goes:
1) we don't have teeth like true carnivores which is why our canines aren't as prominent as cats or dogs. unlike cats we certainly won't develop major health problems from not eating meat. we can chew from side to side which points again to the fact we don't need meat.
2) all the vegetarians and vegans I know are tolerant of those who still eat meat. its a choice they've made.
3) the unhealthy vegetarians and vegans are those who don't consider that they need to find the vitamins in different sources. if protein from animals is the best then why do bodybuilders get better results from man-made proteins (no I'm not talking about the growth hormones and steroids).
4) I gave up meat because of the slaughterhouse production line. I have no issue with those who kill for their own food. Personally I don't want the twisted people who work at abattoirs touching my food.
Enjoy your blue-tongue steak tonight!
It's always dangerous to criticise others for their spelling, and Liam O'Flaherty who is so proud of his Northern Ireland education, probably ought to know that supermarkets have aisles and not isles (and feeble explanations like supermarkets having islands of merchandise will not be accepted).
In addition, the comma after "Humans" really ought to be a semi-colon (the capitalisation is questionable, although a case might be made if this is making a point about the collection of humanity being some form of proper noun). Of course etc. is an abbreviation and should therefore sport a full stop to denote that. I was also taught that stringing two of those in a row was redundant (maybe another stylistic excuse might be made). Yogurt is also a perfectly acceptable spelling of that word; indeed I think it is usually of that form on the North American continent.
I'm not making any claims over my education - I was schooled in Slough and no doubt I will be taken to task. My escape is that this is a tongue-in-cheek posting and that a thick plating of irony deflects pretty well anything.
...that Ms Astill-Dunseith and her overmoralistic attitude to what she puts into her mouth is not about loving compassion toward the animal kingdom, but rather her overwhelming seething hatred to all things vegetable. I can see it now: tearing through the salad fields of the countryside in her anaemic state, ripping tubers from the ground - face stained with beetroot; shredding cos lettuce with her bare hands, consuming the stationary vegetation in its vulnerable plantations.
She's out there I tell you - and she wants your courgettes.
"Learn to spell by the way, it hurts my brain trying to figure out if you're all trying to write yoghurt (not yogurt), where (not were)..."
I've just checked, and there are no such transposition errors anywhere in the comments so far, please eat something which will give your brain energy- as well as being a sanctimonious twat, you're also hallucinating.
Because lets face it, all non veggies like knocking veggies. They claim its all in good fun, and they're joking, but to those of us that are veggies, its like listening to a broken record play the same unfunny joke every day for our entire lives. I dont eat meat, get over it. I've never told anyone else not to eat meat, and in fact, can cook a wicked steak (however you want it.... though I wouldnt serve anything blue for health reasons). This is all in ddition to NEVER having eaten meat in my entire life.
Pravda are fools, and everyone here mindlessly veggie bashing is a fool.
A bleeding dead duck because you all like that sorta thing (preferably with orange sauce no doubt).
Mine's the coat that glows with self satisfaction in telling it how it is.
The rise of the human has been documented as being due to the fact that we co-ordinated in groups to run the big cats off of the carcasses of their kills, then bashed the bones with stone tools for the nutrient rich marrow inside.
As with anything in the ecosystem or even in middle school sport. It only takes a small initial advantage in competitive ability to rapidly excel in any system. This was one of our first big steps.
Perhaps the Grub Diggers, Bean Twaddlers, and Ant Slurpers were mildly successful, but the Bone Smashers kicked ass! They quickly gained body mass and strength...and an odd side effect occured: they were able to better protect their young and each other.
Agitarians are lucky that we meaties did all the hard work that allows them to finally realize that after a few stridently vociforous years of shunning meat, fish, eggs, and dairy that they start looking like a sick animal. Minerals. Minerals. My those dark rings under your eyes are certainly a sight!
@Craig: Compassionateness??? Inventive vocabulary indeed!
Vegan? Is this one of Mr Hubbard & Mr Cruise's buddies from the planet Vega?
HOWEVER
When you see the hordes of feral "yoof", and/or the outcome of their actions, you can understand many people thinking animals are superior.
Yes, I'm a believer in animal rights.
No, I'm not a pseudo-terrorist crusader.
Yes, I am an omnivore, but I do buy free-range everything wherever possible. It costs more, but I'm not saving a few bob by condemning some poor creature to a wretched sub-existence - and I don't go in for weirdo slaughter like kosher or halal.
I disapprove of blood sports, but don't have a problem with hunting for the pot. It's the taking of pleasure in slaughter that's indicative of moral, emotional and intellectual damage.
Unless of course, your prey is the ranks of NuLab, any other politicians, and those smug holier-than-thou bastards who read The Grauniad.....
Then it's highly commendable.
***"4) I gave up meat because of the slaughterhouse production line. I have no issue with those who kill for their own food. Personally I don't want the twisted people who work at abattoirs touching my food."***
As someone who *does* kill my own meat (well, fish, anyway) I can relate to this.
You would be amazed by the number people who come up to me when I'm fishing and have a go at me. When I ask if they are vegetarians, 99% of the aren't.
So they are happy to have someone else kill animals for their consumption, but think it "cruel" when someone does it for themselves. Bloody hypocrites!!
Having been the subject of a Mr Haines pop myself (a whole article I might add) due to me writing a rebuttal to a really annoying article he wrote, this time I actually totally agree with him.
I shall remember Sams point above cos its the best I think I've heard in a while - "So how come four of my teeth (the canines) have only one purpose, that is to tear meat?" I'd go further to say more than just four of our teeth are useful for it!!
And whilst parading her insane rantings in front of the official El-Reg tomato throwing associtation (OERTTA) whilst she is locked in the medieval stocks, is in fact quite harsh and heartless, it is in this case well justified I feel.
The silly bitch.
.
I have one point to add - More anti-veggy type articles please - I want to hear more ramblings from her!
I've looked through my old copies of Viz comic and can't seem to find these words spoken by the "moden parents". If Miss "So far up my own ar*e I can see my teeth" hasn't got copyright on her preachings from her self designated high platform, will we see this ending up in Viz next month? Perhaps she is already their original model.
There are probably differences in the way people who are descended from vegetarians for generations obtain their nutrition from what they eat. Although a first generation vegetarian and one descended from several generations of vegetarians may eat the same food, the latter may be more successful in extracting the nutrients necessary for his body than the former. An Indian vegetarian, I come from a blood line of vegetarians. (This is not to say that there are no converts either way). I wonder if this explains why I have not had the protein deficiencies that American/British vegetarians seem to have. For one thing, vegetarians usually consume milk and dairy products like cheese, which are not found in vegan diets. A vegan diet, as indicated in other comments, does not provide any vitamin B-12. However, Ovo-lacto vegetarians have a more balanced diet since they get their vitamin B-12 from eggs. Proteins are not hard to come by for meat eaters, but Indian vegetarian diets include lentils, beans and other food that provide proteins.
Personally, I am a vegetarian not because I have not been inclined to try meat, but because having tried it, I did not like either the taste or the smell of meat. To imagine that others could relish it is a bit disturbing to me, although perhaps acceptable. I cannot claim to be too fond of some vegetarian foods (especially stuff created with an excess of cheese, brinjals and okra) and I guess I can empathize with non vegetarians who cannot do without a regular serving of meat.
There do seem to be benefits in vegetarianism, especially in ovo-lacto vegetarianism. There seem to be benefits in limited flesh eating too (especially fish). If a vegan's belief that he/she does not eat animal products makes them feel good, I am sure that will contribute to their well being too.
I don't know what the hullabaloo is about in this article, given that these choices people make are based not only on nutritional aspects of their diet but also on other things important to them, such as religious beliefs, their partners and what they like and dislike, their ethical principles, and so on. There is no uniquely superior diet, and the diet is only as effective as the human body's ability to process the diet into nutrients, which varies with geography and genetics.
Thank you for your eloquent and balanced comments, thus showing that all veggies don't try to preach, or seek to impose their views on us despicable omnivores.
I suspect however, that Raving Rachel hates you too, because you eat eggs and dairy...don't worry, she'll be too weak to do anything if she finds any of us!
On a side note, if she is depriving her kids of B12 etc., shouldn't she be reported to Social services?
Or, do the little sods bugger off to the golden arches during the school lunch break?
"We don't bring them up Muslim, Mormon, violent, or prejudiced, 'cos we're not."
So Muslims == violent & prejudiced? Not the ones I know, and certainly none more so than Christians, who for some reason you did not include in your little list of evil things to bring your kids up as. - though I agree they shouldn't be either be indoctrinated into religion or brainwashed into a political / philosophical mindset, which vegetarianism is. They need to be allowed to experiment freely with their thoughts, make their own mistakes and discover their own opinions. As parents we must educate objectively, and prevent them from coming to any harm. Tough job really.
Parents, they f*** you up, etc.
For some reason I happened to be at a annual meeting of a leftwing (very middle class) version of the Scouts.
One of the descusions was....
Should they as a group promote Veggie or Vegan diets as it seemed to be more eviromentaly friendly.
As the debate heated ( you've seen what the lack of meat does for the temper) Someone said " vegetarian and vegan diets lead to eating disorders"
I haven't laughted that hard for sometime.
The next day walking to breakfast I heard to small children talking about the options ..
Kid 1 "Whats sausages are there for breakfast"
Kid 2 "Veggie ones"
Kid 1 in a tone of total horror "VEGGIE!!!! are they trying to kill us!"
Personally I think humans are omnivorous with certain individuals being healthier at either end of the eating spectrum (i.e. vegan or nearly true carnivore). What I dislike seeing are all the comments from people who believe that a couple of pointy teeth make a meat eater.
Plenty of animals that no one would argue as anything but true herbivores have sharp canines or additional wolf teeth. The canines are not used in food processing but for protection or aggression. Wolf teeth are usually considered vestigial and are closer to the molars. While pointy they aren't much use for food processing or for fighting.
Cattle, horses, deer, and many other herbivores have canine teeth. Take a look at the mouth of a hippo sometime. If they haven't had dentistry to cut down their canines they have sharp pointies to put most true carnivores to shame.
I still eat cheese and consume milk so I can't take that pious attitude. Vegetarian food that is a substitute for meat will never be anything other than a bland alternative.
I realise there are plenty of uber-vegans out there who see it as a competition, but not all vegans/veggies are like that. Strangely I've met more hostility from meat-eaters since I turned like my choice was somehow an attack on them.
Literally, in every way. Your eating habits should be as wide as possible. This will give you the capability to experience the world and act in it with the widest possible repertoire. Assuming, you like to exercise the choice - since you have it, you probably will.
If you don't, you will end up a boring blinkered bum-numbed bigot borg, as this wingeing veggie demonstrates, and you will not have the option of doing anything about it either.
Strike for freedom - else determinism will get you. Enjoy your food, or it will enjoy you.
again, I feel that I have to point out that no matter what you eat, something has died in order to keep you alive.
It's the greatest twisted joke in existence.
If your only reason for being vegetarian is because you can't bring yourself to eating a dead animal, then it shows your ignorance of life in all of its forms and how intelligence might well be a lot more common than we would like to admit.
Spare a little thought for the plants you eat because they have exerted a control over their environment that is every bit as significant as we animals have.
And yes, plants are aware that you have cut them since their bodies react to the injury - pain isn't some special emotion; gifted to a select few on this planet so that they may have a mark of superiority in some imaginary organisational chart of importance, it's a mechanism to inform an organism that they have been injured.
May I point out that some plants are also meat eaters ;P
"intellectually and compassionately superior platform" = permanent seat on the "throne" because of massive anal retention due to excessive fibre in diet !! Suggested treatment - Colonic irrigation via the cranium !!
@Paul Donnelly - you *cook* meat ???!!! What's wrong with riding around with a lump of raw meat under your saddle for a week before you eat it ?? The Mongols did it for yonks and they passed on the recipe to the Europeans as Steak Tartare !!
@Chewy - but what about those mass murderers who slaughter millions of innocent plants daily to supply you with the vegetation you need ??
@Geoff Mackenzie - "Where did all the cells in my body come from?" - Tesco ?? Buy one, get one free ?? Tesco's value pack ??
@Ted Treen - You pervert !! How can you eat putrid meat ?? Can't you smell the stench coming off them as they enter Westminster ??
Mine's the one made from cute puppy skins. They were delicious and I see no point in wasting their skins !!
As soon as the old eyes focussed upon the opening words of the rant, I wondered if the ranter was actually a rantress (or is that rantrix?), as these types seem to be predominately female.
And, oh, dear God, yes, she is! A genuine certified Earth Mother in full throat and in spades. And then came the bit about "dies a slow death as his colon struggles to expurge his over burdoned [sic] diet of meat and dairy products", so to top it all off we have an Earth Mother Who Believes In The Colon Cleansing Fallacy. Betcha she takes a high colonic regularly—and, sadly, subjects her kids to it too, thereby permanently f'ing up their digestive tracts and temporarily disturbing their electrolyte balance.
[Feeding your kids a strictly vegan diet sounds like a really bad idea. Perhaps someone should point this out to the child welfare authorities? No, wait,wouldn't work -- *their* ranks are infested with Earth Mothers who wouldn't see the issue, PC again trumping common sense.]
Don't the authors of these rants realize how utterly silly they make themselves look???
Side issue: Mankind, carnivore or not? If I recall my anatomy correctly, our teeth and digestive tract give us away as omnivores: canines & incisors for meat, molars for veggies, long digestive tract that efficiently extracts the goodness from nutrient-poor foodstuffs, i.e. veggies. True carnivores are distinguished by very short digestive tracts as their usual diet is so nutrient-rich; vampire bats with their exclusive diet of blood have exceptionally short tracts.
These anatomical details coincide nicely with the picture of our ancestors wandering the savannahs of eastern Africa as hunter-gatherers primarily of roots, seeds, fruits and other veggy truck, but sometimes hitting it lucky by finding a good chuck of carrion or even killing an animal. Moral, for those who care: the ideal diet is near-vegetarian, supplemented by small amounts of meat.
And what about lactase? Tony Barnes: "People who don't have sufficient lactase - i.e oriental, black, etc - due to not having domesticated cows, and their genes for lactase shutting down in adolescence..."
The natural human condition is for lactase production to shut down once a child is weaned. Those of us with adult lactase production can thank many generations of distant ancestors who found milk a convenient and nourishing food, thereby providing an evolutionary advantage over those who couldn't digest the stuff. I am curious how many generations it would take for the adult-lactase gene(s) to spread as widely as they have in milk-drinking populations: any guesses?
Dead vulture because what delicious carrion it would make.
I noticed that this is a vegan, and the original article concerned vegetarians. Now, I realise this could still be veggie, as technically the diet we most associate with 'vegetarian' is in fact ovo-lacto vegetarianism, e.g. including eggs and dairy products. This being the case, the original article states that egg white gives the most protein absorption, so someone like me, who is an ovo-lacto vegetarian, and gets enough eggs, butter, cheese, milk should have no problems.
Well, Mormons are sort of Christians, or so I've heard. I believe they can be just as violent and prejudiced as Muslims. Or veggies. Or meaties. Or russkies. Or yanks. Most humans have these imperfections, you know - its in our genes, probably has been all the way back to our common African supergranny.
Which is why I can't understand why we are so eager to demonstrate these qualities: "Ha-ha, I am violent and prejudiced, I must truly be special." No you are not, chill the fuck down you cunt...
...is not the plain fact that veggans and vegetarians don't eat meat. The problem lies in the fact that more often than not, they go out of their way just to tell to the unwashed masses that their life style is better, and that veggies are the pinnacle of human race and meat eaters are just barbarians that delight in the suffering of animals.
Let's face it: You don't see non-veggies (the expression meat eater is a little bit untrue, as non-veggies eat vegetables and such) doing pickets (It's that the English expression? You know, that protests people do in front of some place just to piss of passerbys) in front of farms and such. But, on the other hand, we need to stand with veggies destroying markets, restaurants and even that thing people call "McDonald's", just because these places sell or serve meat.
Also, we don't see web banners saying "Eat meat! Become an Meat Eater! Show that you are superior by eating meat!". But there's plenty of banners telling you that veggies are superior.
So, I respect the decision of veggies of not eating meat, but they need to respect my decision, and the decision of manny millions of people of eating meat.
I know I'm a horrible, horrible cold-hearted butcher just because a like a good steak. You don't need to remind me everyday.
By the way, when we meet, my girlfriend was a veggie. She just didn't like the taste, smell and texture of meat. The explanation: from where she came (other city in the same State) they didn't have much tradition in preparing meat. After a month eating my Mommy's Super Delicious Meat(tm) she started to like meat.
An heart, because all the world needs now is love, sweet love (and bovine heart in a barbeque is a dellicacy).
If he didn't refer to himself as a vegan, rather than herbivore; and if he didn't refer to ordinary omnivores as carnivores (as if that were an insult) then perhaps we would give a rat's ass to his opinions.
In the mean time I'm going to put a vegetarian on the BBQ for a nice 8 hour smoke and dinner tomorrow.
Well, I dare you to use your puny canines to hold down a struggling cow :D
Anyway, that's beside the point. The point is, if you're going to butt in on any debate, get your facts straight first. That applies to opponents and proponents of any diet/lifestyle alike.
It's been my experience that most people don't know the first thing about nutrition, so whichever diet they chose, they'll end up harming themselves. Which makes discussions about which diet is or isn't sensible pretty pointless.
I briefly dated a "knock-out" Vegan [hard to believe that she was a consequence of nuts and tufo and not an ounce (er, gram) of silicon anywhere......] who tried to convert me.
Relationship went down when HER parents served us {horrors} meat for dinner on a weekend. Although we were a number, I couldn't stand the thought of not biting into a nicely BBQ'd Alberta Beef steak for the rest of my life.
Although many vegetarians have a point about some of the stuff we consume as "food" , fanatical evangelising hardly endears them to the rest of us.
Paris, because she's probably easier on the appetite than Ms. Astill-Dunseith ;)
BTW Go Lester go
right next to the potatoes. ;-)
(springcreek bbq was good last night, my wife and I have a deep love of all food, meat and veggie... and if we don't get both in our diets, we have adverse reactions in the bathroom soon enough. I'll leave the gory details out for those with weak stomachs.)
the leather jacket, thanks.
You need to switch off the macro that turns "Mormon" into an equality operator!
David was saying people don't normally raise their kids to be different from themselves, i.e. Catholics don't raise Muslims, Hippies don't raise murderers, Loony Lefties don't raise Rabid Rightwingnuts (and vice versa)
Of course the end result may not be what the parents intended, speaking as a Catholic Atheist...
I'll get my cassock.
Good two- fer Rachel -- corroborating the "vegetarians/ vegans are self- righteous whackjobs" and "females are hystrionic twits" stereotypes -- well played.
Side note: given the hormones, anti- biotics, and who- knows- what- all- else is being pumped into cows, sheep, chickens, pigs, and other livestock these days, I'd be more concerned about the side effects of these additives than about anything inherent to the occasional slab o' steak or dish of fried eggs. Of course, the chemical cocktails lovingly drenched onto our food crops (fertilizers, herbi-/ pesti- cides) don't make vegetarianism/ veganism a riskfree alternative.
This post has been deleted by its author
Ranter --> Rantress
Rantor --> Rantrix
Personally, I think Rantor sounds more like an evil bot programmed to flame (metaphorically, over the tubes) everything and everyone in sight, so I would go with Rantrix for this Flame of the Week.
IT angle, because, er, anyone remember that potato-powered server hoax a while back that got picked up on (and subsequently dropped from their website quietly) by the Beeb.
@ Rajesh
Great post, indeed. I just have a comment...
"To imagine that others could relish it is a bit disturbing to me, although perhaps acceptable."
Now, I myself feel exactly like that when I see people eating salad. I just don't say it would be "perhaps acceptable" -- I think it's truly acceptable, even if I can't do it. Just the smell usually turns my stomach. I'm allergic to chlorophyll. OK, just kidding (although some people do fall for that one). But I do have a big problem with leaves, can't stand them. Even if I don't know they are there and eat, I then feel like throwing up. Other parts of vegetables are almost always fine, specially roots and fruit. But I can't pass a day without meat, feels like I haven't eaten real food. That's how I am (and my culture).
@RW
"long digestive tract that efficiently extracts the goodness from nutrient-poor foodstuffs, i.e. veggies"
Well, sort of. Yes, our digestive tracts are longer than a carnivore's. But they are way shorter than the ones from true herbivores! We are in the middle. You know the appendix, that stupid little stump on your intestines? It's also called the caecum, for "blind" as in blind-alley. So, that is very long and complex in herbivorous species, and it is responsible for the digestion of plant matter. The more plant a species eats, the longer the caecum (sometimes, if stretched, it's longer than the animal itself!). Very little is left in us, and other apes. *Because we are not supposed to be eating just plants* Whomever wants too is welcome though -- just don't forget your artificially synthesized supplements. You don't want to know what B-12 deficiency looks like. Oh, and eating fungi (yeast) is cheating, since fungi are much closer to animals than to plants, hehe! ;-)
@ people talking about chewing sideways and flat teeth
Get a clue. By for example getting a copy (won't be cheap, try a library) of late Milton Hildebrand's "Analysis of Vertebrate Structure". If I remember my days as Vertebrate Zoology TA well, there is quite a lot about comparative teeth structure there. Our molars are NOT like the ones from herbivores -- look a horse in the mouth, our teeth are not like that, but like a pig's. Our molars are tuberous (good for succulent stuff like roots and fruit, OK enough for grinding meat when needed), definitely not flat. If your are, you urgently need to see an orthodontist.
Our teeth are NOT those of an pure herbivore, and NOT those of a pure carnivore. Our teeth are pig's teeth, appropriately enough.
This is a damn long post.
Sigh... no, the list is simply four random things I'm NOT, not things that go together.
And as for letting your children choose their own path, well of course they will as they grow up and develop and being to form their own opinions. But until then I'd be hypocritical to bring them up in a way counter to what I do believe.
Regarding the evolutionary arguments, well yes that sure works extremely well when the human race was still struggling for survival, but I don't see much evidence of that for the past few millenia. If you ask me then homo sapiens jumped the whole evolution train as soon as we started cutting down forests and building shelters.
Just a final thought though, I do find it interesting that when I mention to a meat eater that I'm veggie, they very often reply with some explanation of how they don't eat all that much meat, only chicken, etc etc. I've started to wonder whether it's actually some inate guilt response, because deep down they *know* we're right... ;-)
And just when I thought the pathetic comments people are forced to wade through when someone talks about operating systems were bad enough.
I'm quite used to people making a joke out of my dietary choice and if it wasn't such a waste of time I would in turn take great delight in stuffing raw meat down their throat until they shut up. The fact that some vegetarians promote the advantages of the diet is hardly worthy of contempt in itself, if they're obnoxious and annoying about it then fair game but if you're going to take it out on the rest of us then you're as moronic as they are. As for the comments about peoples choice to not eat meat because they think its cruel, I hope your ideal comes to pass and you get eaten. Although I care little for the cruelty aspect of eating meat myself it sickens me that people get ridiculed for caring.
It is funny how (as some have pointed out) the original article either purposely or unwittingly presumes that all vegetarians are vegans, I suppose it is thankful that the biased nature of the article is so obvious.
Something that has not yet been touched upon (as far as I have noticed) is the non dietary or moral aspects of vegetarianism. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that being vegetarian has benefits on the environment and on the economy as well as for preventing starvation. After all, as one of the most respected minds of this century Albert Einstein was an advocate of vegetarianism and I believe not because he cared about animals. I cannot claim that I know vegetarianism to be a better way to live but as it is my choice to make and it harms no one else I reserve the right to be damn well pissed off at people who make a joke out of it.
Oh and I feel the need to respond to the somewhat interesting postulation that humans should eat meat because they have pointy teeth. We had tails once too, I know my family have moved on since then.. have yours?
Hurrah to all the people who manage to not make fun of others for making different choices, meat eaters or otherwise.
Of course with a career in IT, my chosen dietry preference is Beer! (Real ale not that Fizzy lager stuff). A food group in its own right, full of complex vitamins and minerals (esp Guiness).
Why? because like a lot of veggies in the presence of a bacon sarnie, I occasionally slip from the true path and have a steak and chips with my beer.
OK.
I'm more than a little pissed off with the original letter and the repetition of a certain quote for humorous effect...
Colon cancer isn't funny.
Colon cancer is also not a matter for vegetarians to get on their high horse about.
We've just had 6 weeks of hell when it turned out my mother's gall stones were a complete misdiagnosis. She had a huge tumour in her colon and needed a massive section removed.
It transpired that she was hours from a fatal rupture and maybe weeks from the cancer killing her.
The kicker? She has been vegetarian since she was in her late teens nearly 40 years ago.
Oh and let us please not beat around the bush here. If we were herbivores we'd have much longer colons, a functional caecum, more developed crushing dentition and a variety of chemical adaptations such as the ability to synthesis certain amino acids and so forth.
If we were carnivores we'd have a much shorter colon, more developed ripping, gripping and tearing dentition and a variety of chemical adaptations such as the ability to synthesis certain vitamins and so forth.
We are evolutionarily speaking omnivores but we are also humans.
Humans are odd little creatures that transcend the rest of the animal kingdom (well as far as we can tell, it may well be that Bonobos, Chimps, Gorillas and Dolphins fall into the same category to name but a few) due to our ability to reason etc. We can and do decide to change ourselves and the world around us. So just because biologically speaking we are supposed to be omnivores does not mean that we must be.
People can choose to be vegetarian (not herbivores, that is different) but they cannot claim it is how we are supposed to be and they must adapt their diet accordingly to make up for nature.
We're allowing each of our 3 kids to decide if they want to pursue vegetarian diets as they grow up. Our eldest was for 2 weeks after he realised where meat came from and we showed him the whole process of farming and slaughtering. In the end he decided to come back to meat but we'll support him if he changes his mind again.
The BBQ sounds good, can I come?
Nothing better than a fright chunk of ex animal. And my bowls work just fine because I also eat my veggies and and my dairy products. It amazes me how fanatic's like this seem to deny our evolutionary history. We are whom we are because of the meat, the killing and eating of the wildlife that lived around us. The idea that, to be enlightened, is to limit the bodies intake of required materials to a narrow portion of the evolutionary needs of the human body seem a bit, ridiculous. I understand that some of it can be supplemented or found else where. But not all of it, one tends to see a pattern in the physique of such people.
I think I will organise a BBQ in the honor of this dispute!
I have to agree, the vegans I meet (and I meet many) are often highly militant and lacking in civility. Not *all*, but far more than the average dead animal eater. I don't know if it's the anger a disaffected minority person might feel over being ridiculed for their beliefs, or whether it has something to do with their diet (or whether their angry personality somehow causes them to choose veganism). But there really is a certain militancy there that makes me just tune them out. And I'm actually quite sympathetic to the idea of compassionate living and eating more healthily. Pity...
Iron is definately a problem nutrient for women but the main problem that arises from being a vegan is pernicious anemia caused by vitamin B12 deficiency. Vitamin B12 can only be obtained from animal products. A vegan would have NO vitamin B12 in their diet unless they take supplements.
They could go to a farm and "liberate" the B12 bottle :D I gave the calves a jab of cobalt supplement last week, I'm sure it would do them good too. And rabid PETA freaks are used to "liberating" things from farms so she shouldn't have any problems there.
Just use a clean needle dearie :P
the alien, because they're more understandable than PETA freaks.
"How my vegan children and I will laugh from our intellectually and compassionately superior platform as he dies a slow death as his colon struggles to expurge his over burdoned diet of meat and dairy products"
Interesting that this compassionately superior individual will laugh as someone dies a painful death. I (and anyone else who runs an anti-christian webside) get similar mail from compassionate and concerned christians, gloating about my enevitable eternal torment.
Religious folk all got the same mnindset, regardless of the details of what they happen to be religious about.
the majority of people almost never eat meat, not because they don't want to, but rather cos they can't afford it..
personally, I want to see the reaction from vegans and vegitarians when we start using organ printing technology for the production of animal free synthi-steaks made from 100% cultured cow cells :-)
that has to be at the same time the most cruelty free way of producing food, whilst also being the most stomach turning to any true tofu-welder..
This retort is typical of whining liberals all over the UK. They're not happy unless they're whinging & whining about something and it matters not what they're griping about!
Must be the lack of vitamins and protein that makes them so 'touchy'. Perhaps the money they save on not eating meat and eating veggie crap all day could be spent on an 'anger management' course!?
"the majority of people almost never eat meat, not because they don't want to, but rather cos they can't afford it.."
Get to your local supermarket as soon as it opens. Head for the clearance fridge(s) before the pensioners.
2 steaks, 4 pork chops, 4 chicken breasts all in date (display until date is tomorrow) - £2.50
So that's steak tonight and the rest in the freezer for later.
Where's the IT angle? I had to provision a few desktops this morning before 9, so it was easy enough to be at the Co-op for 6...
"Vegetarian and vegan diets lead to eating disorders" - sort of. People trying to concel an eating disorder will find it easier if they opt out of the family meals and take control of their own cooking - so it's not vegetarianism which leads to eating disorders, though if you examine the diets of people with eating disorders you find an excess of vegetarians.
I'm an omnivore, but I have to admit that there's a superb vegetarian restaurant near where I live. Incidentally, does anyone know where Vegetaria is?
"reveals she has a habit of sending ranting missives of the type favoured by rabid yogurt-knitters. It's like the Guardian equivalent of the Mail's "Why, oh why, oh why..." letter to the editor." Nothing sanctimonious about pitying those who cannot spell is there? No hallucinogenics on me this weather, it's gonna be another few months (and hopefully a nice summer) 'til the wee critters pop out of the ground to say hello ;)
Down with the meat industry, up the hunters who can at least earn some respect!
You know Lester, writing articles like this is a easy as clubbing baby seals (arf arf arf sound in the background).
I love reading these comments, although at 120 I was getting a bit tired, so I hope someone gets to read my comments :)
I knew a few people who were vegetarians. The first one I met, was a Veggie (Not a vegetable mind you) because of his parents preferences. He used to spend his pocket money buying Hamburgers at school. His parents never found out.
The second one I knew became a Veggie for some other obscure reason. One day I was going into the supermarket and was almost knocked over by this person FLYING past me. It was said lady, on her way to the meat counter. She subsequently bought 1 Kilo of Biltong (Dried raw meat from South Africa) and went and sat in her car and ate half of it in one go.
Personally, I love my meat, and if I go a week without it I start feeling physically ill. Same goes for vegetables though, so I know I am pretty well balanced (most of the time :))
I am also not religeous so I don't believe in "intelligent design" or whatever the bible-bashers current justification is for persisting in the insane belief that the world is only 6000 years old.
And if I get colon cancer at least I will have enjoyed a good few bacon butties before I go to meet my maker (which I won't as there isn't one).
Woah - you get one email from a hot-head who can't spell and then you DO tag all vegetarians as the same, ie 'having a low boiling point'? Come on, guys - I read your original post about the Pravda article, found it hilarious, checked out the Pravda piece and then marvelled at its lunacy. But then, it comes from the land where some folks still stick garlic on the door at night and marry off their daughters in exchange for a bag of corn (actually, I made that last bit up but you kind of get my point, I hope!).
PLEASE don't start attacking vegetarians on the basis of one loon having a go at you. Otherwise you might find yourselves pelted with vegetable OR meat products by rabid Luddites because you're guilty by association of being evil because you're tech-heads, ergo the blood of Bill Gates runs through your veins. :-)
For the record, I'm live and let live where animals AND people are concerned. Vegetarianism is my choice but everyone has the right to choose, and I don't believe anyone should be maligned for making their own choices.
Same goes for the Mac vs Windows vs Linux vs whatever debates as well, thinking about it...
"but he feels that vegetarians and vegans are a safe bet"
cause they are usually to pale and pasty to fight back!!
vegetarianism is not a minority group,
though it seem that those with a sense of humor are a minority group
icon: dead bird blood dribbling from mouth...?
not really my cup of tea, but seemingly fitting
Just as I finish posting my smarmy remark, it dawned on me that I could attempt to explain a point of view, of mine that is.
The thing is, that we humans, have such a nasty habit of going against nature (in more ways that I can simply imagine) that making "choices" such as veganism or vegetarianism (like that one 'eh?) is almost surely to be unnatural and therefore, probably, bad for you (I'm a numbers guy, so probably is a safe term usually ;-] ).
Furthermore gorging oneself with anything, whether it be pork rinds, Indian pale ale or broccoli isn't good either. If there's one lesson we should take from experience is: moderation is the best option in all things.
As for the case of us being omnivores, those who deny this fact are simply morons. Whether people choose to behave like one or not, leaves me quite cold either way. However, left in the face of starvation I truly believe that most of us would get off any high horse (or celery stick for the PETA members) and eat what is available, which is, after all what we are adapted to do. To point out an extreme example: some very moral people have become cannibals/anthropophagi in such circumstances.
I agree, like most I assume, that there are some foods that give you more of some nutrients than others. But can anyone be so sure they are intaking *exactly* what they are needing when they are needing it? I think not. And that has always been man's (read human's) menu...availability, well until recently.
It must be the highest form of decadence, as to have food available and to turn one's nose to it. (I of course do not mean allergics).
Though one might have the right to choose one's position in the food chain I seriously doubt that any argument would convince "mother nature" what place we *should* have other than the one we already had before we knew how to argue.
Steak in the pan, just isn't right without onions and butter, I am decadent.
Cheers
I have always subscribed to the concept of minimizing the suffering impact of my food choices, typically in terms of the sheer number of lives lost per meal - but moderation is key here, we mustn't go off the deep end!
For example, popcorn-shrimp is amoral (many lives lost per meal), beef is sound (one life lost - many meals).
Under this rubric, carrots may be worse than shrimp - tilling the soil kills dozens of earthworms, etc. and you eat the carrot (and its brethren) once it matures. Who am I to say animal life is more precious than plants? You get to make that call for yourself.
The fact is that something has to die (or suffer - like an apple tree) for us to eat - my opinion is that we serve the world well when we, with due moderation, minimize that suffering.
- Tony -
If Mr. Jobs was (openly) partial to bacon, then I wonder if the 5 iMac flavours would have been any different?
instead of:
Blue - blueberry
Red- strawberry?
Purple - grape
Orange - tangerine
Green - lime
We would have had:
Blue - Blue Steak
Red- Spicey Rib
Purple - Liver
Orange - Roast Chicken
Green - erm... Garnish?
hey lester--- just for the record i have no iron deficiency and recently my blood checked out perfectly healthy, by my coincidentally veggie physician.
i've been vegetarian for 14 years, and have contributed blood at local blood drives often, out of the kindness of my heart, and proving the strength of my blood.
i'm late into this little spat, and i'm not sure why you are so upset or threatened.
for the record, i like the register, generally.
i like other periodicals that on occasion publish anti-veg posturings.
could you clear it up with me, why are you so upset and what did vegetarians ever do to you to hurt your feelings so?
ahh pravda!!!!!! my favorite source of truth.
if pravda said it it must be so.
while some slurp down their soured milk, i'll console myself with the likelihood of a longer life free of preventable diseases. it is unnecessary to eat the flesh of others to obtain all the essential amino acids. our bodies build the non-essential out of the essential amino acids found in a variety of plant sources.
it is also totally unnecessary to drink the blood of others under the mistaken notion that failing to do so will result in iron deficiency. our bodies produce heme from the basic essential aminos. that is why entirely herbivorous animals (like cows or myself) have iron-rich heme-filled blood pumping through their bodies.
too much iron, as with too much protein, especially of a low quality source actually become indicators for a whole host of diseases such as stroke, hypertension, heart attack, kidney stones, etc. but you'll find that out soon enough.
in the meantime, the joke's on you! and i hope the mere existence of vegetarians doesn't increase your stress hormone levels, bc that's not good for your longevity either!
peace out dude!
Now this comes from a Biology teacher, and from some researchers at the Instituto Politecnico Nacional from Mexico City I worked with during a high school project that, well, went a little too much beyond a simple HS task.
The reason veggies *seem* to be so healthy is because they were not veggies since birth, but decided to turn into veggies at some point in their life. Actually doing the full-veggie diet since day 1 (ok, since you can eat food then) would end up with weak, underdeveloped children with nutrition problems. We *need* some animal protein, especially during our development phase. That said, this isn't a free pass to go 100% meat, you also need the veggies or you'll have even worse things (fat, cholesterol, colon cancer and such) so its better to have a well-balanced diet.
By the way, current studies show that a protein-rich diet helps us lose weight, or at least avoid gaining more. Why? Because with protein-rich diets, the body feels well-'fed' and doesn't demand more food that much. Check it out, actual medical studies have found that out.
I'm 26 years old, I'm not fat despite eating big quantities of food, and have no food-related health problems. Hell, I even have a slightly overdeveloped immune system, as I am able to ward off some nasty diseases without antibiotics by myself! ;)
Vegetarians all eat meat on the sly. Every one of them just can't get enough of rasher sambos. Me I'd miss steak but apparently the fools crave bacon above all else and secretly eat it and then just lie about it afterwards. Disgusting hypocrites the lot of them.
A steak and some mushrooms, onions, and a pint is enough to keep you perfectly healthy forever. Vegetarians have to eat sixteen different kinds of beans and pulses along with kidney beans walnuts and some kind of herb to get just seven of the eleven amino acids contained in a steak. Think of the carbon footprints involved in getting all that to tesco.
It's shameful what these plant haters are doing to our planet.
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