back to article Korean software firm sues Microsoft

Microsoft has been slapped with a lawsuit filed by Korean instant messaging program developer Digito.com, which is claiming millions of dollars in anti-trust damages. According to Korean newspaper Chosun, the US software mammoth has been accused of causing a loss in sales revenue estimated at W30bn (US$1=W918) because the …

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  1. Benedict

    Honestly...

    "If Microsoft hadn't bundled its instant messaging program with its operating system we could have reaped significant profits."

    Cry me a river... If Microsoft hadn't created Windows then *I* could have made significant profits. Boohoo

  2. Andy
    Stop

    in that case...

    shouldnt halfords sue car makers for supplying wheels, steering wheels etc for lose of earnings as they supply those with a new car when halfords supply them as well... muppets!!

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Pirate

    Easy target

    What absolute bollocks. How can they possibly say they have lost that amount of money? Where would that money have come from? Do they think people would have paid for their software? If they think advertising revenues, they probably wouldn't have been that much as most people will go with something they have heard of. How many people have ever heard of Digito? That figure is purely speculative as they have no basis for comparison. Why not target OSX that also comes pre-loaded with an instant messenger and a media player? Most distros of Linux also come with messenger clients and media players. Why not sue them as their product was missing from the distro but lots of other peoples were so it is therefore unfair? There is nothing at all stopping people from installing a 3rd party app if they don't like the bundled ones and given the amount of publicity and advertising done now they cannot claim that people are unaware there is an alternative. Companies like this are almost as bad as patent trolls

  4. This post has been deleted by its author

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    "There is nothing at all stopping people from ..."

    installing a 3rd party app if they don't like the bundled ones,

    As firefox pretty much proves.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    ... because they can?

    I don't think anyone's going to argue the case of "Only Microsoft do it" because everyone knows it's not true. However everyone also knows how easy it is to take shots at M$ at the moment so they're going to take a chance.

    Can you blame them?

  7. Mark

    Valid complaint

    Hey, MS during it's life has

    1) reformed DOS to stop lotus running

    2) reformed Windows3x so that DR DOS looks to be failing

    3) reformed Win9x so that Word Perfect breaks

    4) reformed CIFS/SMB so that only windows can serve windows

    5) reformed windows so that Netscape dies

    6) reformed OEM contracts so that BeOS dies

    7) reformed EULAs so that you no longer own your software

    8) reformed Windows so that you no longer own your computer

    9) lied in court about IE bundling

    10) lied in court about trademarks (Lindows!=Windows)

    11) reformed licensing so that they can extract more money from the customer

    12) managed to do all this without losing all their csutomers

    Now, what can let MS do that? A monopoly. This allows them to reform the market to suit THEIR needs and not serve the needs of the customer.

    Because of this, ALL customers (whether of MS products or not: if you need to read a .doc file, you need to either lose interoperability or buy MS Word) are harmed. You can't jail a corporation, you can no longer remove their corporate charter nor can you remove their copyrights and patents. Governments cannot move from MS because the US justice department or diplomatic corps will put pressure to bear on you to "not discriminate (unless it's FOR MS products)". The only way to punish corporations is to fine them and KEEP fining them until they either die naturally or change their ways.

    As to MS being an easy target, maybe that's because they SHOULD be targets? Kiddie-fiddlers are easy targets. Does that mean we shouldn't prosecure them? No, because they are rightly easy targets.

    How can we say we lost X money from MS's practice? Easy: the same way as the RIAA know they lost trillions to piracy. If we didn't have to buy Vista or Word 2007 and could stay on 2000/XP and Word98, we would have all the computing ability our desktop needs and we would be richer by whatever Vista/Office2007 cost.

    Windows Media Player isn't a problem on its own. That it is ONLY on Windows AND that it is the only player of the propriatory codec MS uses is the problem. Either open up the media format or remove it from the default install (WMP doesn't come with Theora playback, not even MPEG2 playback, so why must it come with WMA?). MacOS doesn't have the market leverage to make Quicktime8 (or whatever) the indistry defacto standard and Linux only has open codecs that anyone can implement, so Mac's are OK because they have no leevrage and Linux is OK because there's no format to leverage.

    Also, for some reason people seem to have forgotten that when Macs came with Safari as a default (but removable, unlike IE) browser, MS withdrew IE for Mac. Why? (and this is a killer!) Because they cannot compete with a browser that comes with the OS! Ha! I thought that knowing there were alternatives was good enough! Or is it only good enough when it ISN'T IE?

  8. Gerry
    Dead Vulture

    At minimum tactics, possibly a case to be made

    The previous comments may be right, they may be wrong.

    The company is resorting to legal challenge, if it's rubbish, it will get thrown out.

    Unless I'm missing a wider point about the Korean legal system?

    No doubt there was nothing to prevent double-stacker (or whatever it was called) being installed alongside the Microsoft equivalent...

    Perhaps no-one remembers that Firefox was born out of Netscape - and everyone was free to install Netscape alongside IE, weren't they?

  9. Jeroen Braamhaar
    Black Helicopters

    There's no crime in bundling tools ...

    Because it creates an "out-of-the-box" usable system.

    The crime is in the integration factor.

    Take Linux - there's very few tools or pieces you can't chuck out and replace with something else of your own choice (perhaps not very easily or without a glossy point-and-drool interface, but, still) but in Windows a lot of these tools are *integrated* into the operating system, or can't be uninstalled or properly replaced with 3rd party tools. This is the meat of the matter.

    Notice you still *CANNOT* uninstall Internet Explorer, Media Player and Messenger - yes, you *CAN* install further 3rd party tools to replace the functions, but you cannot effectively get fully rid of them - only shove them into the background, from whence they WILL come kicking and screaming at the least opportune moments ....

    I don't think there's *ANY* need to remind anyone of the (lack of) quality and resilience of Microsoft tools when faced with exploits ...

  10. Slaine
    Flame

    IF

    If M1cr05h4ft can't even organise a UK English install of it's operating system to realise that there is likely to be an English (UK) keyboard, English (UK) money, English (UK) dictionary... and even then to automatically make a wrong guess as to what bloody time zone I am living in... I find it laughable to think that they could arrange for any other part of the operating system to install "as the user wanted". But let us not forget that without all that hideous bloatware that comes prebundled with your average m1cr05h4ft operating system, windoze would still fit on a couple of floppy disks.

    Ooooo now - what was that little thing about "fit for use"??? Ah yes, as a supplier of a good or service that is not fit for the purpose that it was originally designed, M1cr05h4ft are, by definition, not entitled to charge for its provision.

  11. Nick Oram
    Gates Horns

    Come on.....

    ... yeah okay the figure their quoting as losses is proberably wayyy over the top.

    However... what they are suing about is true... its the same as the old Internet Explorer been bundled in to Windows argument... its fundamentally wrong.. its an operating system not a bundle of applications!

    As for the muppets above spouting things like "shouldnt halfords sue car makers for supplying wheels, steering wheels etc for lose of earnings as they supply those with a new car when halfords supply them as well... muppets!!"... well no.. the steering wheel, wheels, seats, exhausts or what ever are integral to how a car works and runs... now the "optional accessories" that would be different.... how many times have you looked at a car and haggled on the price cause you wanted the bigger alloys and not the better quality floormats? thats the whole point... choice!!

  12. Paul Talbot

    Title

    "There is noting at all stopping people from installing a 3rd party app..."

    True, but the problem is that most users don't even look for alternatives unless something goes seriously wrong with the bundled app. That's the whole problem here, and it's the same thing they got sued for over Netscape, etc. That is, if the OS doesn't come with a bundled app, users (in theory) look at everything that's available and make their choice. If MS's program gets the download / purchase, that's fine.

    However, if MS bundle the app, most users will use that one, and may not even be aware of the existence of alternatives. It was only when the pitiful security of IE6 was manipulated by large numbers of viruses that many users switch, and even then most of them haven't bothered. Since Microsoft currently has a monopoly in the PC OS space, they are leveraging that market to get ahead in the IM market, which is illegal under antitrust laws, hence the lawsuit.

  13. Simon
    Coat

    Installing apps

    I think the point is more that you can't remove the ones supplied.

    So yes Halfords might well complain if the Ford wheels won't come off.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Gates Horns

    I'm glad to see the laws of karma are finally taking effect

    Windows should have been stripped of all application software a long time ago! Anything that is not related to system operation should have been moved into a different software collection (who remembers the '95 plus pak)

    That would have prevented so many law suits for them over the years. And of course, vendors are not going to sell an empty pc. So, everything would still come from the OEM with applications, but if the users didn't want them they could format to a blank desktop and run netscape, wordperfect, ICQ, or whatever other application suite had evolved.

  15. Steve Kelly

    umm

    Yahoo, ICQ, AIM, gmail chat thingie, IRC, jabber etc. even the likes of trillian (mixture)

    nuff said

  16. Shaun Bartoo

    Tedious trolling

    So tired of the mindless (Its M$! Its baaaaaaad!).

    Its a stupid IM program. They're free. If MS didnt include Messenger, say it didnt even exist, you still have AIM, ICQ, IRC, and numerous other chat/IM programs...FOR FREE. Digito's claim that they 'lost money' because Messenger was bundled into the OS is crap and has nothing to do with the idea of bundling.

    Digito.com's web site has no option to view it in anything other than Korean, which means that a goodly portion of the English-primary-language world (Say just the US and the UK) would never ever considered their client in the first place - because you can't bloody read it!

    Idiots.

  17. Danny
    Jobs Horns

    @Paul Talbot

    'The problem is that most users don't even look for alternatives unless something goes seriously wrong with the bundled app'

    By the same logic the courts should force Apple to ship OSX without all the extra apps that come along with it:

    Ichat - not fair on alternative messenger clients

    Garageband - not fair on other music creation software

    Imovie - not fair on other video editing packages

    IDVD - not fair on the DVD authoring apps

    Iphoto - What about alternative photo organising and editing tools

    Iweb - A different web design package anyone? Not until the bundled app stops working.

    And that is all without mentioning mail or safari!

    If you look on Apples website, most of the above are listed as applications, but since imacs come with it all pre-installed, it's good enough to argue it ships as part of the OS. Most consumers wouldn't know the difference.

    Oh, one more thing - are any of these open source to allow better interoperability as this seems to be the topic of the moment. NO. Apple can keep as much of their code proprietory as they like, while whinging all the time that MS won't allow them access to the MS source code.

  18. Jeroen Braamhaar
    Alert

    Just Installing a 3rd party app isn't the solution ...

    ... because even though you may get a better experience, the medriocre Microsoft tools ARE STILL THERE and you STILL have to maintain, update and secure them lest they become avenues of approach for ne'er-do-wells intent on damage.

    Worse, some developers use portions of them in their own code to handle stuff (AIM for example uses MSIE to serve you those annoying ads) so they don't have to code them - but their shortcut can become *your* problem really quickly.

    Again, it's not the bundling that's the issue, it's the fact the default MS tools are integrated pieces that CANNOT be uninstalled or entirely removed that's the issue here.

    Just about -EVERY- OS to date has had its default toolset for the users, the only difference being that "genuine" replacement used to be heck of a lot easier ...

    Yes ?

  19. Nick Oram
    Stop

    @Danny @Paul Talbot

    all very valid points about OS X...

    ...however....

    ... you can uninstall all of the above mentioned if you dont want them!

    See the difference??? I hope you do!!

  20. Peter
    Stop

    @ Danny

    "By the same logic the courts should force Apple to ship OSX without all the extra apps that come along with it"

    No, because the rules change once you become a monopoly.

  21. Luther Blissett

    There could be a lot more of this

    The realpolitic.

    North and South Korea are giving each other the eye. The South has $$$. The North has The Bomb. A marriage made in Heaven - except that you can't marry yourself (viz, historical example of Germany). Unfortunately Dubya does not like the idea one bit (more likely, has been told not to), and has rebuked the South's premier in public over it, a most unfortunate display of crass lack of understanding. Micro$oft as a result, could find it regrettable, even, in due course.

  22. Edward Rose

    Monopolies

    There is only a legal case if the company is a monopoly. Apple are a very small share and don't have these obligations. However:

    1) Can the mac stuff be uninstalled?

    2) I pretty much agree, it *should* be an optional extra package (maybe separate CD, definitely separate install program).

    For those claiming that *nix comes with preinstalled software.....

    1) Nope, it comes with a huge collection of different apps. Nearly all 'jobs' have multiple applications. You can choose what you want to install / uninstall. There is a subtle difference.

    2) There is a lot of commercial software which can be install out of the box (except for Debian), something that you will never see on MS products.

    So your comparison is utter bovine defecation.

    The firm is asking for too much though (ready to haggle?).

  23. Geoff Mackenzie

    Re: access to MS source code

    Generally speaking it's not MS source code that third parties are really after - like Apple and the Open Source community - but documentation of their file formats, APIs and protocols. Not such an unreasonable request.

    As for the law-suit - I'd say the justification for it is dubious, but all the best to the frivolously litigious tat-peddlers anyway! Get the boot in! It's not like MS could object to being sued on a whim; that would be a bit hypocritical.

  24. Benedict

    Uninstalling

    "Notice you still *CANNOT* uninstall Internet Explorer, Media Player and Messenger"

    If you go to "Add or Remove Programs" -> "Add/Remove Windows Components you can indeed uninstall Media Player and Windows Messenger. Amatuers.

    Although on the point of IE, yes it should be weeded out, and preferably tossed into the incinerator.

  25. Morely Dotes
    Jobs Horns

    @ Benedict

    You can remove Media Player and Messenger from the list of programs accessible to the user. You can *NOT* actually uninstall them. The "Add or Remove Programs" will tell you that you have done so, but it's telling you a porky. The applications are still on the hard drive, still accessible to malware, and still integrated into the (poor excuse for an) OS.

    And in Vista it's even worse.

  26. Tim Butterworth

    Competition or universality?

    Folk are perfectly right to say how convenient it is to get everything bundled out of the box, or how Microsoft are within their rights to sell whatever product they want. However, look at the three main bundled features of Windows - IE, WMP and Messenger. All three of these passed through a prolonged period of being rubbish before undergoing major upgrades due to the pressure of competition (Firefox, WinAmp / RealPlayer & Skype / Google Talk). If Microsoft were not allowed to supply these three pre-installed, then, so the free-market argument goes, these three apps would have got much better much quicker. Also, their competitors would have more resources to improve their apps further still.

    Bundling is either good for the consumer because it is convenient and cheap, or it is bad for the consumer because it slows down innovation and prolongs the life of outdated software.

  27. A J Stiles

    @Mark

    Microsoft users are like the wives who go back to an abusive husband because "he's going to change this time, he really means it this time", or the dogs that go back to an owner who mistreats them.

    It's just a new way for the same ancient instinct (which must have served some evolutionary purpose, once) to manifest itself. And unless and until we try to understand that instinct, it will continue to manifest.

    I would never have touched Digito's app with a barge pole, though. Why would I, when there is Pidgin (formerly known as Gaim), a multi-protocol, Open Source messaging client which can be demonstrated to be free of advertising and spyware?

    @Slaine -- agree 100%. Every country in the world EXCEPT one, uses A4 paper (210x297). The other country uses US Letter paper (216x279). Just to make it more interesting, Office maintains all its own settings -- and *ignores* the paper size and measuring units you selected in the Windows Control Panel. This has caused much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

  28. Raider Nation

    Paper Size

    Hey maybe we use a different paper size here in the states. All I know is that if it weren't for us all you limeys and frogs and russkies would be singing Lily Marlene!!

  29. Scott Earle
    Thumb Down

    @Raider Nation

    Paper size, and it's all back to WW-II. I am glad that history is taught so well in the US. I guess that the larger the nation, the better the propaganda machine.

    And while you're looking back 60 years, try a little further ... if it wasn't for the Brits, you'd be speaking Dutch. And if it wasn't for the French, you'd be speaking ... umm ... English ;)

    We're talking about the US's inability to admit the existence of any other form of measurement than its own - Fahrenheit (nobody else uses it - give it up already!) ... silly pints with only 16 fl oz in them ... Letter and other paper sizes ...

    The rest of the world is either already metric, or understands it - except the US (Seen their attempts to use the metric system? Mars Climate Orbiter anyone?)

    When you can elect a president who is not a baboon (twice!) ... get back to us.

  30. Lozzyho
    Paris Hilton

    What a crock of shit

    Honestly, listen to some of you.

    My car is primarily a device for getting me from A to B. But it comes pre-loaded with Sat Nav and a CD player. But I don't see TomTom and Sony sueing Peugeot because I haven't gone out to buy their kit!

    And I want a computer, out-of-the-box, to do IM, e-mail and Internet access. I don't give a toss if I can't fully un-install IE, as long as I'm free to install Firefox should I want to.

    Remember that many people are perfectly happy with IE and Windows Messenger, and many people are also UNABLE to figure out how to download and install alternatives.

    So if you own a company that makes IM apps or browsers, here's a tip: WRITE A BETTER F*CKING ONE THAN MICROSOFT, *THEN* you'll make some money!

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