US demands air passengers ask its permission to fly

Under new rules proposed by the Transport Security Administration (TSA) (pdf), all airline passengers would need advance permission before flying into, through, or over the United States regardless of citizenship or the airline's national origin. Currently, the Advanced Passenger Information System, operated by the Customs and …

[Shadowthrone]

Let them impose these rules.

Personally I say let America impose these rules. What will eventually mean is that travel will reduce to America and people will be reluctant to enter US airspace and influence. It will also serve to further degrade America's place in the grand scheme of things.

As a whole the world has a pretty dim view of America and it's foreign policy. This will serve to just make them even more introverted and have an even more limited view of the global landscape.

The sooner America's influence on the world is removed the better.

N.B. I should quantify that last statement really. The sooner America gets a sensible administration and stops seeing itself as the world's police force who expects everyone to do things THEIR way the better.

[Stephen Gazard]

last minute purchases of flights to the US...

Ah. So those who need to fly to the US at the drop off the hat would be stuffed. Imagine telling your parents that you can't come because the US won't permit you to fly because you did not know three days in advance that your aunt was going to die. How inconvenient of her...

It's not a good plan at all.

[laird cummings]

Everything is in order!

"Papers please.

You are not allowed last-minute travel, you should know that. The government is here to help you, and in order to hep you, we must have at least three days to think about granting you permission to go where you want to go. No, we will decide where you can and cannot go - you are obviously a threat to yourself and everone around you unless we are allowed to peak into your life and grant our dispensation. So give us your papers."

Feh.

The TSA needs to muzzled, drugged, dragged out back, and shot, for the good of us all - it's a rabid dog now.

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares?

I stopped going to the USA years ago - if you want to treat me like shit and have me stand in queues to have inane questions asked of me by morons then don't be surprised if I don't come back. I dread to think what it must be like entering the USA if you happen to be non-white and non-christian.

I've always been a believer in treating people like you'd wish to be treated yourself and vice versa. On that basis I won't be dealing with the USA/USA citizens unless it is absolutely unavoidable. Thankfully unless you visit North America it is remarkably easy to never come in contact with a USA citizen.

[Ian Chard]

Holidaymakers won't care

because their kids will be screaming too loudly to take them to Disneyworld, they'd submit their own right arm if it meant getting them on that plane.

[Claus P. Nielsen]

US trade embargo against itself

As I read the article, this would mean that nobody could travel in or out or over the USA without planning this 72 hours ahead of time.

If that is really true, then the negative impact for a lot of US companies doing business abroad would be huge.

Who would hire a contrtactor who could not put an expert on a plane within 24hours to help fix a really critical problem?

I realise that this goes both ways (so US companies would not risk hiring foreign companies for critical stuff either), but if it's the US versus the rest of the world, then the rest of the world is still the largest.

[Anonymous Coward]

Late flights

72 hours ahead? So are there arrangements for rapidly approving late bookers? Or will 7-10% of currently filled seats remain empty?

Surely it'd be easier for the DHS to publish the no-fly list and allow the airlines to check against it... Or would that be a breach of privacy?

[amanfromMars]

Fortress America

Crikey, another nail in the coffin of Free Enterprise. Is Uncle Sam mad or has whoever dreams up their Script lost the Plot in Sub-Prime Imperious Imperial Initiatives? What a Shame.

Ah well.... a windfall for the Nouveau Riche East then...... the new Frontier.

[John Latham]

What's the point?

Maybe I'm suffering from Friday-afternoon brain fade, but I don't see the point of the no-fly list.

Cockpits should now be sufficiently secure to make box-cutter hijacking impossible, and baggage screening should make it impossible to get weapons or explosives on board.

So, in the best case, the no-fly list just prevents "terrorists" from travelling by air, enables them to inconvenience us by diverting international flights after takeoff, and lets them know that they are being watched, so they can be more careful.

Great.

John

[Anonymous Coward]

Another reason not to visit.

Title says it all...

[John A Blackley]

Too funny!

So, if I'm flying from Glasgow to Noo Yawk then Continental Airlines has to tell the TSA - three days in advance - who I am and where I live?

Not that I'm squawking about the United States' government's right to do this - no, if they want to know who I am three days before I pitch up at Newark's "Liberty International" airport terminal (I kid you not) then who am I to argue? After all, leaving me sucking beer with John Smeaton at the Hilton bar is a lot less messy than having to deal with me at "Liberty International".

I am a little piqued, though, at the possible (probable) acquiescence of other governments. It's a bit cheeky of the GoodolUSofA to get so chippy about who's allowed to soil their pristine shores when their own yakking masses are allowed to traipse - willy nilly - over all of Europe with hardly a "can I see your passport, Sir?"

So, by all means, let Los Americanos push their screening out several days and several thousand miles - so long as we have a bit of decent tit-for-tat from other governments. That way, we'd reduce the terrorist threat, practically eliminate transatlantic flight (thereby preserving resources and reducing carbon footprints or fingerprints or whatever prints they are), and perhaps restore the transatlantic cruise trade - all in one fell swoop. Let's do it!

[Anonymous Coward]

There goes the impromptu weekend away then...

The TSA are the biggest bunch of shirkers... Just so THEY can sit back and not have to do any work, they require us, the public, to finalise travel plans at least 72 hours before?

There goes the impromptu flight to Vegas for a quicky shag-weekend (and some gambling) then.

The business community will LOVE this considering that all too often you will find business people flying around the country last-minute.

Bravo TSA, BRAVO. You officially are the biggest bunch of W**KERS on the planet*.

* And another reason to leave the US and never return.

[Guy]

72 Hours???

So let me get this straight, the details have to be with the TSA 72 Hours before take off, or no boarding pass. For those that may be unwilling to do the math, thats 4 days.

So this would mean the end to spur of the moment travel, say you live in the continental USA, and fancy a weekend in Vegas, you were bored or something, nope, no longer possible. Only pre-planned and pre-booked hedonism available now.

What about if you have a relative in another state fall ill, or worse die, the funeral is in 2 days... Sorry you can't fly you terrorist scum.

Mind it'll at least bring back one american tradition, that of the long road trip.

[Mike]

US closing itself to tourism for good?

I suspect I'm not going to be the only commenter to point this out, but here goes anyway...

Currently, the value of the US dollar makes the country an extremely attractive holiday destination - there's plenty to see and do, the main language is English and the general populace are a likeable bunch.

However, the government and it's various agencies seem Hell-bent on doing all they can to completely kill-off the industry. Have they completely forgotten that it was *internal* flights that were hijacked on 9/11?

Myself, family and friends are all reasonably well-off people who normally would jump at the chance of taking the kiddies for two weeks of theme park-based entertainment; but no longer.

Bye bye USA. It was nice knowing you until you became a complete arse.

[Richard]

Say goodbye to business travel

As a service engineer, I almost never fly with more than two days notice.

Therefore, under these proposed rules, I won't fly. Ever.

And it's not just me - the vast majority of business travel is on short notice.

[Darrell]

Great Idea

.. As no self respecting terrorist would use a false identity when traveling would they?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dakness Looms Over the Land as a Fascist State is Born

Give it a couple years and you may hear the following:

Ill-humored TSA Guard: "Your papers please."

Me: "Passport... Travel Papers... note from Mom... Here ya go..."

ITG: "Hmmm... interesting... mother was from a former communist state it says here... not good... And oh, what's this? You're not a Christian? Tsk... Tsk... Tsk..."

Me: "And this has what to do with my trip Los Angeles?"

ITG: "Your Papers are not in order... Cleetus! Take him to our 'conference' room, the commandant will want to 'interview' him."

Seem almost reminiscent of an old WWII movie; just have to loose the German accent and substitute a Texan one and that's what we'll have.

(Posted Anonymously for fear of the GW Bush Secret Police insisting me and my family stay for a vacation in the Caribbean)

[D Morehouse]

Assinine....

..apparently this even goes for flights within Canada that travel over US airspace, flights from Toronto to Vancouver for example. The Canadian gov't should flip the US the finger on this one and tell them to go pound sand!

[Kwac]

They've won.

The last time I visited and saw the levels of 'security' at the airports it was clear that the nation was already in a state of terror.

This is just further proof that terrorists (real and imagined) have won.

Fortunately, as I've now retired, I won't have to go there again.

[Roy Stilling]

What about critical illness/bereavement

My wife's American. Back in 2001 (before 9/11) she got called home because her father was near death. Despite a tube strike making her miss the flight we'd booked the night before, she did managed to get to see him before he passed on. She wouldn't have made it if these regulations were in place then.

[Brendan Weir]

@amanfrommars

Is it just me or did his comment actually make some sense? I think I need a drink!

Where's the silly icon representing booze?

[Sir Runcible Spoon]

re@Guy

"For those that may be unwilling to do the math, thats 4 days"

Can I be the first to point out...72 hours....4 days....hmmmm

let me get my calculator out and work out how screwed up your maths is :P

[Anonymous Coward]

@ Guy

72 hours is actually 3 days. 4 Days would be 96 hours.

I think that the TSA really hasn't thought this through. Here's hoping that American business & citizens lobby enough to get this insanely short-sighted proposal dropped.

[Anonymous Coward]

@ Guy

Erm, as one who didn't bother to do the math I still think I remember 72 hours being THREE days, not four. :o)

[Anonymous Coward]

Thing is -

Do the TSA actually know there is a world outside the USA, do they care, the vast majority of Americans never travel outside their own County, let alone abroad.

More importantly, the bit you've all not commented on is that it's flights entering US airspace, so that will affect flights to Canada, Mexico, the Windies, the last of which can ill afford their economies disrupted by the US.

Mind you perhaps they can strike back through the WTO for a few more billion dollars.

[Campbell]

Holy

Moly, They've gone completely crackers, just barely over 200 years inbreeding and the crazy gene is rampant.

Time for a restoration of Imperial rule and wide dispersal of good ol' European pure bred sperm.

That's should sort out the madness, at least for a while.

[robin maddison]

They did too!

Osama never needs to do another thing, only threaten to!

[Misha Gale]

transit passengers?

I tend not to be bothered by all the crazy US security measures, since I have no particular need or desire to go there. But there are lots of nearby countries I might like to vist (Canada, Mexico, most of S. America) for which you usually have to fly via a US airport or through US airspace.

So how are all these countries going to react when the US places a major dent in their tourist industry?

[Joe Stalin]

Let them in

Since you know the names of every terrorrist on the planet, that's the guys on the watch list, don't ban them, let them in. And then you can arrest them and ship 'em off to 'gitmo. Don't these people know anything, all that time and effort chasing terrorists around the globe when you can sit back at home and let then come to you.

Even Paris could see the logic in that.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Beeb?

Anyone else noticed that this story is not available on the BBC site yet? (At least as near as I can tell anyway).

[Rob]

Calm down, for goodness' sake

Christ! I take it none of you buggers bothered to read the pdf before diving in to slag off all things American?

OK, first off: You can still book a last minute flight and fly. Got that? The airlines only have to provide whatever info they already have at the 72 hour mark.

It's there in B&W. The documents says "Additionally, for reservations made within 72 hours of scheduled flight departure time, covered aircraft operators would be required to transmit Secure Flight Passenger Data as soon as possible."

In other words, TSA is saying "It would be difficult to check all the records at the last minute, but if we get most of them in advance, we can do the remaining ones at short notice, no problem.

Second, while the airlines have to provide all the info listed IF AVAILABLE, you only have to give them your full name. Again, from TFD:

"As currently proposed, it is optional for individuals to provide their date of birth and gender in order to provide individuals with the greatest ability to exercise control over the data elements provided. For the vast majority of individuals, a decision to forgo providing these data elements should have no effect and will result in aircraft operators, reservations agents, and TSA holding less information. For what is expected to be a relatively small number of individuals, however, a decision not to provide date of birth and gender will result in an inability to automatically distinguish them from someone on the watch list."

In other words, you can limit the info you provide and roll the dice.

Now, before I get monstered, I'm no fan of the state collecting all kinds of personal data on us and have serious concerns about the privacy implications of the proposed rule. But the sort of knee jerk, toys out of the pram comments I see here do sweet FA to address these very serious concerns.

I'm off to smoke a fag now.

[Ferry Boat]

The Sex in Your Soul Will Damn You to Hell

I did hear a good quote about the US government recently:

invented by geniuses to be run by idiots

The US constitution is one of the best constitutions around. Pity it's under attach from idiots like GW Brush. Such a shame people won't be going to the US. It's a nice place with interesting people. Some of them would be improved by mixing with foreigners but most of them are pretty sound.

Anyway, I think that the existing 15 mins before/after take off rules still apply and they catch the travellers who late booked.

Don't Spain have something similar?

Here is a picture of a drunk bird with red wine sick.

[Anonymous Coward]

EU should remove similar pre-emptive blocks

I saw an episode of Airline, a black man with Swiss residence card and passport speaking French was not allowed to board the return flight to Switzerland because the photo on his Swiss ID card didn't look like him in the opinion of 2 out of 3 immigration officers.

Here's the problem I have with that:

He had a UK visa, granted in Switzerland, which means he has residence in Switzerland because they only grant visas in countries where the person has residence.

His Swiss card looks the same as my swiss card did when I lived there, it was a real swiss residence card. I speak French, his French was correct for French speaking Switzerland. Presumably the details on his card matched his passport, because the French speaking immigration officer said so, and it was only the photo that was in dispute. His passport photo was not in dispute. My photo doesn't look like me either.

The people who can check the card properly are swiss immigration, not an airline desk. It's the swiss authorities that can contact the swiss canton and get his details and either kick him out or let him in. But he would never have been able to get home to have his details checked!

The problem is these prechecks, they seek to preemptively block peoples right to travel based on the opinion of an airline staff member. Since the person doing the checks is there to block people just in case, he blocks genuine travellers right to travel.

However we have freedom of movement in the EU, so that necessarily means that right is blocked for some people.

The same thing blocked my wife's right to fly to Hamburg from Paris (blocked because she would transit through London and the airline wouldn't let her fly without a UK visa she didn't really need).

THERE SHOULD BE NO PREEMPTIVE CHECKS WITHIN THE EU, the checks for entry (if any) should be done inside the member countries territory.

The legal basis for barring these preemptive checks is the right to exit an EU country. Suppose my wife wanted to travel to the UK. At the ferry port there is a UK immigration officer who will prevent her entering the ferry because she only has a French residence permit, and they would insist she has a UK visa as well. What he's doing is barring her from leaving France on that Ferry. It would be different if the check was done at the other end in the UK, he would be barring her from entering the UK. However at the other end UK law applies and she could challenge the UK entry officer's decision in UK law.

She would win of course, because what Britain does is not legal for spouses of EU citizens.

[Alan Gregson]

That's settled then...

I'm never traveling to the US again, which means I'll have to sell my Montana bunker

[Anonymous Coward]

Team America, F*@k yeah!

Why don't we just hand over the keys to the Americans now and go home?

Because I have full confidence in the security of their databases....

[Anonymous Coward]

Positively not going this year

We like skiing in the US - much more friendly and polite than the European (esp French) yobs. We've been going regularly for years.

We're not going this year though because we've had enough of being treated like criminals.

I'm sure they don't care and won't notice.

[Nicholas Ettel]

@Guy

"So let me get this straight, the details have to be with the TSA 72 Hours before take off, or no boarding pass. For those that may be unwilling to do the math, thats 4 days."

Or can't do arithmetic in your case. 24 hours = 1 day; 48 hours = 2 days; 72 hours = 3, count them, THREE days.

I know, I know... boo for math. :(

[Matt]

Don't worry, just fly to Mexico.

Since we can't build a fence between the two countries without violating the Environmental Protection Act, just fly to Mexico and walk over.

Probably no more time consuming or inconvienent then TSA.

Yeah, the gobstoppered bureaucracy is quite astonishing when it comes to that failed abortion known as TSA.

[JP]

Advertising

Things must be getting really tough in the US. I saw an ad for NEW YORK CITY on telly last night. If The Big Apple has to advertise for tourist bucks, the restrictions must be hitting them hard enough as it is. This won't make it any easier or make people more comfortable travelling to the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

Land of the free???

Why don't the friggin yanks just re-implement visas?

Even better, why don't they just ally themselves with Kim Jong il and refuse entry to everyone? The world will be a better place without the yanks, "we helped you in the war" flames, and of course Paris Hilton.

Just get Taiwan to nationalise the AMD and Intel factories, and everyone else will use pirated copies of Windows and Photoshop just as they do today.

[Ogberi]

So, being American makes me evil?

I love it.

We're governed by a bunch of rectum-kissing loosers who will do *anything* to stay in power. They're keeping the population wound up about "terrorist" attacks. Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!

And then, the flames pour in. As an American, I do love this country, it's constitution, and the [ever more limited] freedoms we have.

I hate our government. It's a bloated evil monster that needs the fat trimmed with a chainsaw. I didn't vote for the imbecile we have in charge. I don't support even half of the crap that is passed off as a "good" bill, with bad stuff (logging in northern Oregon) hidden in the fine print. American citizens have become too enamored with what the capitalism-driven economy has stuffed down their throats. By far and large, they're completely ignorant of what is happening politically.

Can you hate a child because it's parents are idiots?

Criticize the "Special Education" reject that sits in the Oval Office. Not the average US citizen. We're people just like everybody else, and unfortunately, squirming uncomfortably as the Thumb Of Oppression hovers ever closer.

[Graham Dawson]

Good presidents.

"N.B. I should quantify that last statement really. The sooner America gets a sensible administration and stops seeing itself as the world's police force who expects everyone to do things THEIR way the better."

Lets hope they don't elect the other Clinton then.

People might say "she can't be worse than Bush", but she definitely can. People said nobody could be worse than Blair. Now who's laughing? Nobody, that's who.

We could try the current Belgian model. They haven't had a functional government for nearly half a year now, yet the country hasn't fallen apart. If we could somehow engineer the same situation in our own countries and stop the buggers from making new laws all the time we might actually be able to get on with our lives...

[Nick H]

You people crack me up...

I wish we WOULD pull all our troops and economic support in. Oh the whining would start then. Think you got a muslim problem now? Wait til we aren't around to keep them at bay. Oh and don't forget good ol russia - they are on a nice little comeback right now too.

I'm sick and tired of everyone in the world complaining. If we do nothing, we get bitched at for not being world leaders. If we step in, we either didn't do enough fast enough or we did it too harshly. It's a joke.

The last time we left you to yourselves, you invented hitler. Great idea.

So it's fine by me - you guys stay out of the US - and hopefully we can return ALL of our troops home. None of you deserve our help. The only reason you HAVE the freedom to spout this nonsense is because of the US. So knock yourselves out. Hopefully next time we'll just wave and let you sink.

[Anonymous Coward]

Go East!!

Companies will find it difficult to do business in U.S. due to travel difficulties. Technology companies now have more justification of oursourcing jobs to Asia.

[Carol Dew]

Re: You people crack me up... (Nick H)

Lissen up, genius (and I use the term extremely lightly),

Try getting your news from someplace other than Faux News before you post such unbelievable, bigoted, insular nonsense on a public board.

Your bigoted comment on "keeping them at bay" is beneath contempt.

And regarding the troops, just who the hell do you think they're helping? I'll tell you who - Dick Cheney and his retirement fund, that's who.

Freedom - you don't know the meaning of the word.

[Britt Johnston]

problem still worth fixing

The guy or gal who puts the fun back into flying deserves next year's peace prize.

[RRRoamer]

I try not to fly at home anymore either

One, I agree with Nick to a large extent. Pull all of our boys home and let the EU take care of paying to secure there own damn borders. Of course, this really would require us to pay attention to energy independence.

But I do have to admit that I can see NO way that the TSA can get their current security rules to pass Constitutional scrutiny. That whole virtual (for most anyway!) strip search just seems to get in the way of "Unreasonable search" and the "innocent until proven GUILTY" parts in the Bill of Rights.

Of course, I have no doubt that the US Supreme Court could easily figure out a way to justify it.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Nick H

"I wish we WOULD pull all our troops and economic support in. Oh the whining would start then. Think you got a muslim problem now?"

Let me throw this out as food for thought...perhaps the reason there is a Muslim "problem" (as you call it) is because....oh nevermind....it would be a waste of time to even begin to explain it clearly enough for any chest thumping Bush-ite to comprehend.

Move along..nothing to see here. Good day Sir.

[Anonymous Coward]

Take your toys and go home

@nickH

You know what? Do it! Take your toys and go home. Pull your military in, become an insular xenophobic self-facing terrorized dictatorship, please. .

Without American interference and arms dealing, South America might unite into a power bloc that might finally, FINALLY allow those countries to install the government they want. The African Union would have a chance to clean up their continent, and bring true reform to the shattered nations that are leaving millions in abject poverty.

The EU would be able to continue along it's crippled, but evolving eurocracy, and perhaps even set a new standard for governance and quality of life in the world.

The Asian nations all seem to be trucking along quite happily no matter what anyone anywhere says, and that will never, ever change.

Russia will become a superpower again, who cares? Good for them! They have the resources, and the people...eventually they'll either become a relatively open society, and deal with their own internal crime problems, or fracture, and not be a worry to the rest of the world.

The middle east will tear itself apart, and the Indian subcontinent will probably help. Nothing you, or I, or anyone anywhere could ever say or do will stop that. The only thing middle eastern nations hate more than each other is anyone trying to stop them from destroying each other.

In short, the world doesn't need the US. The once great nation that spearheaded a wonderful concept known as democracy, but got torn apart by unchecked capitalism is, outside of it's ability and desire to bully the world...now irrelevant.

We don't need your soldiers, there are millions of them worldwide working for organizations like the EU, AU and the UN that are eager to help, and we don't need your money, because your country doesn't have any anymore.

So, for the love of all that is right in the world, please, impeach your president and sue his government, or just do the world a favor, and hurry up and shatter into a collection of bickering nation states, so we can get on with the business of providing the former US with economic aid, and bring them into the light of democracy.

[Mike Moyle]

A few comments...

@ Rob:

It would be lovely to think that providing anything less than full information WON'T automatically put someone on the watchlist (if not the No-Fly list) on the basis of "if you've got nothing to hide..." by the TSA (Total Schmucks in Authority), but I'm afraid that I can't see that being an option after the first year if this isn't stopped.

@ Guy:

"So let me get this straight, the details have to be with the TSA 72 Hours before take off, or no boarding pass. For those that may be unwilling to do the math, thats 4 days."

...You have 18-hour days over there...? Or am I allowed one free "...you stupid Brits...!" for all of the "...you stupid Americans...!" crap that gets posted here?

Look... We've got an administration that is doing phenomenally stupid things that we will be trying to clean up for years to come, if that's even possible. Britain currently has an administration that is doing phenomenally stupid things that you will be trying to clean up for years to come, if that's even possible. If you're going to walk around loudly declaring that all Americans are idiots for electing a bunch of control-hungry idiots, what do the recent steps towards an "All-Surveillance-All-The-Time" environment (see: London security cams and national ID card articles) that England is taking say about the British government (and hence, its electorate?)

I'm reading these articles and comments and seeing British posters saying "It's the stupid Government," when something stupid and questionable happens on that side of the pond, but "It's the stupid Americans," when it happens over here.

Sorry, but I don't see how you can have it both ways.

If *all* of the American people, even those who have repeatedly voted against them, are expected to take full responsibility for what our elected officials do, then shouldn't *all* of the British electorate be held to the same standard?

I suppose this will only serve to launch a swarm of badly spelled and punctuates "sToopidYanks" blather, but I had to say it.

Oh, and @ NickH:

Shutthefuckup and let the adults talk. (Sorry, the rest of you; we're really NOT all like him!)

[Sean Nevin]

@Nick H

Yes, please do. Leave the rest of the world alone and let us 'sink'.

Where's the icon for the feeling you get hearing some crazy religious guy on the street? That kind of weird sensation of rolling-your-eyes and shaking-your-head futility of trying to reason with them.

[John A Blackley]

@NickH

Thank you, Nick, for stepping in and showing those bloody foreigners that the US can do everything bigger and better than anyone else - including irrational, misbelief-based xenophobia.

[John A Blackley]

@Rob

Have you taken leave of your senses? El Reg posters actually reading a source document? On a Friday?

Rob, you obviously don't understand the mindset of your average (non-US) El Reg poster. Bugg*r facts, every time El Reg mentions something threatening to impact the cheapo vac to Noo Yawk or My Ami, then just let loose with the usual verbals.

Nice post though.

[dave butler]

Ogberi

Then vote/throw the bastards out.

[Hein Kruger]

they've won

The terrorists have won. Even if team america succeeds in completely wiping out every terrorist organisation on the planet and erase Iran (and perhaps a few other Islamic countries) from the map, it won't make any difference.

Oh, and I agree with Brendan, amanfrommars is making sense today. perhaps because it's friday?

[Rob]

@ Nick H

"The last time we left you to yourselves, you invented hitler. Great idea."

That's funny, really, it made me chuckle. :-D

In return, please allow me to offer:

"The only thing you lot charged in WWII was interest on the loans." ;-)

[Hollerith]

let them shoot self in foot

I try to make every flight to North or South America either direct or avoiding the USA, i.e. changing planes in Toronto or Mexico City, and not on an American airline, even though I like them. I stopped going about 2003. If you want wide-open spaces, try Canada or Argentina.

Friends of mine whi ski now go to Whistler, Fernie, Castlegar, Jasper and Banff instead of the USA and say these places are cheaper and the people nicer. America's loss is Canada's gain.

I have liberal American friends who feel aggrieved that they are lumped in when people slag off America. Start protesting in the streets then, mates.

[Jon Press]

Why go?

"the value of the US dollar makes the country an extremely attractive holiday destination"

Er, no. It makes it a cheap holiday destination. It's a long time since there's been anything remotely attractive about the US, though I guess if you're easily seduced by an apparent bargain, you'll fit right in.

And as for those people worried about funerals, don't expect sympathy from the USofA. Their rules already mean that if you've got a Green Card application in progress you're not allowed to leave the country. For any reason. Not even a funeral. Once you get it, however, you're obliged to leave the country, return to your place of habitual residence and then re-enter the USA. I realise we have our own asinine bureaucracy, but the 'Merkins manage to beat even the Belgians hands down..

And don't get me started about the cop I observed once at SFO who'd stationed himself by a pedestrian crossing and was ticketing everyone who crossed without waiting for the red light so he could teach those pesky foreigners the cost of failing to have studied Californian State law before visiting...

You're welcome to the USA...

[Anonymous Coward]

@Nick H

Regarding the Muslims and Russians ... it's you they have a problem with, because you are such complete arseholes.

We in the UK have unfortunately gotten ourselves into trouble because we are helping you.

[sentence excised by Reg Moderator]

[William Donelson]

This is not helpful, but...

.

IMPEACH CHENEY and his stooge, BUSH. Convict them and Send them to prison!

Stop this <fill in US gov department> lunacy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Access to document

The regulations.gov link to the document doesn't work because the web site is configured for direct linking to reports. Go to http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main and search for Docket ID TSA-2007-28572 or RIN 1652-AA45, click on the docket ID link, click the pdf link for the second document (TSA-2007-28572-0002), and review the proposed rule. It really isn't as bad as you guys make it seem.

Passengers are currently only required to provide their names and that will not change. Airline carriers will be required to request additional information, but passengers do not need to provide the information. Airline carriers will also be required to transmit to TSA through the current system all available information as outlined on page 17 of the document that I cite. Airline carriers will not be required to request all of the information for passengers with a "Known Traveller Number" because those passengers have already been cleared for travel.

What the new system will correct is the current problem of passengers being placed on the "no-fly" list because their names match another person. Ultimately, this will ease travel for people by remedying problems with the no-fly list. A potential problem is that passengers may feel compelled to answer questions that they are not required to answer (so they may feel their privacy is invaded), but providing complete data can ease travel for frequent travellers who get a traveller number.

[constance szeflinski]

It's people like you...

Oh Nick - you are the definition of the Ugly American. As long as folks like you speak out, the truly good people here in the US will continue to be suspect. And we are basically good. Our government is out of control and in the hands of some astonishingly evil people - both of the Republican and Democratic variety. I hope we can implement some type of peaceful revolution to return to our brilliant constitution. Barring that - I would seriously consider a move north. I'm not giving up yet,but every time I read crap like Nick's I begin to wonder if the forces of good can win back the heart of America.

Sorry for the over the top prose - I'm pretty disgusted by what my government is doing in my name and I just want the rest of the world to know we're not all like that.

[Anonymous Coward]

Heathrow?

Not defending any of these knee-jerk policies that keep sprouting up, but I have to ask:

Transited through Heathrow lately?

Nevermind the endless questions about whether or not you had any electronics repaired while on your trip... How about the cue just to stand in another cue to go through security again - presumably to locate all the bombs and knives that I managed to smuggle aboard my previous flight. Heathrow makes most airports look like a walk in the park. Ridiculous security procedures are hardly a uniquely American problem.

Those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[Guy]

Damn it

Ok, Ok, I admit I made a serious school boy error on the math's front.

It's been a long week....

I think I'll head to the pub, kill off those slow brain cells, so that the faster working ones can be ready for next week.

[Joe Harrison]

Why?

If i wanted to blow up the United States, i'd just make a last minute booking under a false identity. System fooled :P

Not even The Americans can get things right

[Anonymous Coward]

re: nation that spearheaded a wonderful concept known as democracy

You mean Greece? No, wait, it was Iceland.

[Anonymous Coward]

random title

So America is already viewed, by the travel industry, as the least welcoming country in the world. (Not the people, American Customs/imigration) They are rude, abusive and standoffish, and that is when you're in your own country trying to get a visa at 7am in the morning having some uniform-wearing-power-crazed-shaven-headded-teenager pointing an automatic weapon at you because you deared to want to visit America to give it some of your money. This is before you get to imigration/customs in America, after a seven hour flight you get to wait in a massive line for another teenager with a gun to check your passport (why do you need a gun to check a passport anyway?) you are taken through a scripted interrogation then when he discovers that you've been to Egypt and you have to explain at length why you aren't a terrorist before being allowed into the counrty.

They want to make this better by making you wait three extra days for this treatment?

Uh?

WTF?

[Michael]

et al

@D Morehouse:

"assinine" is not a word. The word you're looking for is "asinine". And the airspace over a country is understood to belong to that country. If Canada doesn't like it, they're free to route their flights over their own airspace. By all rights, the USAF could shoot them down for violating airspace.

@Graham Dawson:

Hillary... *shudder*

My greatest political fear is that the US will be so determined to not elect a Republican, that they'll elect Hillary. The thought very nearly makes me sick to my stomach. I'd rather have Barack "I have yet to have a solid position on anything" Obama than Hillary "I have a solid position, but next week I'll change my mind about it" Clinton. Course, I'd rather have Colin Powell, but he won't run.

@Nick H:

It's true -- I'd love to have the US completely go isolationist. Let the rest of the world solve their own problems.

Oh, and by the way (rest of the world, I'm looking at you), that means no more AIDS money for Africa, no more food for famine stricken countries, no more defense of Iceland (to insert random useless trivia), and you can fend for yourself against the ever more daunting Russia, and the looming China, and all their shiny collective nukes.

You see, it's very easy for the rest of the world to talk smack whilst standing behind your big brother. But what happens when he doesn't have your back anymore? You get your ass whooped by the big kid next door, that's what. Have fun with that.

[Steve Browne]

@ Nick

Hey Nick, you got it right, though I didnt think I would ever support someone like you, but you finally noticed that the world WANTS you to take your army back home, your currency is worthless, and wake up to China owning a lot of it too. One day, the Chinese government will liquidate its dollar holdings, then you will get to understand what worthless really means.

We have had relations with Muslims for decades, nay, centuries, half of Europe was Muslim only 100 years ago, the Ottoman empire, and your own government is promoting the interests of a Muslim state, Turkey, in suggesting the EU should welcome it as a member. Though, we do think GWB should mind his own business and stay out of the political affairs of the EU. We never had any problems at all with Muslims, until your government started to shit on them.

So, apart from a criminal army (Abu Ghraib), a criminal government (implicated in torture, extraordinary rendition, Guantanamo Bay) we will be so happy to see the back of you.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah.

Last time I flew into a US airport was in 1998, O'Hare Intl. I remember it was kind of like bus stations over here in Mexico, no "security zones" so you could even go as far as the boarding gates without a boarding pass. (That has never been possible in Mexico.)

By the way, don't hate America just because of one arrogant member country!! America is that big-ass continent found by Columbus and mapped by Americo Vespucio, from Canada/Alaska down to the Patagonia ;)

The US has not fought a single "liberty battle" since 1945. Even some of the major achievements were thanks to GCHQ, it was a Polish dude and then Turing the ones that cracked Enigma. Hell, the GOP actually *supported* Hitler, fortunately they didn't prevail in the end. Anyway, the world would still be "free" without the Second Indochina Wars, the Khmer Rouge might have not been able to take over Cambodia en '75, there would have been no Vietnam War, no Taliban, no CIA-trained Osama .... the list goes on and on and on ...

So sad the US is screwing over anyone trying to go there, it seems I will have to search direct flights if I want to go to Europe now.

[Bob Jones]

Its their right ...

to be stupid.

I don't care, I would rather not fly to/over/from the place, but its their sovereign land (or air space?) let them do what they wish.

A great boost to Canadian tourism and air travel, I wonder if Expedia will let my specify I don't want to enter US airspace.

[Anonymous Coward]

@constance szeflinski

"I'm pretty disgusted by what my government is doing in my name and I just want the rest of the world to know we're not all like that"

Well technically its not really your government seeing as most of you actually voted for the current Nobel Peace Prize winner. We know youre not all like your administration, but we really wish youd do something about them terrorizing the rest of the planet, and keep your xenophobes at bay.

Come to think of it, us UK citizens have some work to do unless we want to be shafted up the ass by our own government.

[Chris]

Re: Heathrow?

Not in transit, but I did fly out from Heathrow T1 a couple of months ago for the first time since all the new security crap got put in place, and I can honestly say that getting airside was easier than I've ever known it to be - about the only notable differences were the requirement to take off my shoes, and the slightly anal rules about putting absolutely everything into separate trays for scanning (one tray for the laptop, one tray for the jacket, one tray for the backpack...), and it was far from the tedious process I was expecting it to be based on all the complaints from other travellers I'd read beforehand.

[Anonymous Coward]

Too Much

The Bush Administration has made everyone in this country look like an ass weather we agree with their position or not. I do not agree with anything this administration has done, yet I still have to defend myself against people who assume that we all think alike, and I will have to defend myself against my own countrymen because I dont think like them, its a double edged sword to live in this country of freedom. This development just puts more icing on the cake. There are a hand full of us that totally agree that this is all wrong, but the problem is that in this country where the battle cry is Freedom, Free Speech and the like, if you speak your mind and it does not agree with the masses, you are an outsider, a traitor.

I was conversing on a message board not long ago and was talking about how I would like to start working on my garden again to grow my own vegetables and fruit so as to not have to buy everything at a megastore i.e.Walmart, and one of the known conservatives made the comment that if I would go so far as to do that I was a radical and just looking to cause trouble. Whats so radical about a garden?

This always happens when we have an ultra conservative office running the country. No doubt people even here will flame the hell out of this post, and you know why, same reason, I am a radical liberal, though one of the things we "fight" for is freedom of speech, it boils down to who has the most money. I also do not agree with the Democratic party on a lot of issues, but I will be labeled a Democrat because of my liberalness.

Peace Brothers and Sisters

[John A Blackley]

@Michael

"Oh, and by the way (rest of the world, I'm looking at you), that means no more AIDS money for Africa, no more food for famine stricken countries,"

Do you seriously ask us to think that the GoodolUSofA is the only contributor to AIDS relief in Africa and/or the only provider of food for famine stricken countries? Really?

[Phillip Rhodes]

Ironic

As an American this has me so bloody pissed-off I swear I have steam blowing out of my ears. But I find it ironic that so many of you lot are mocking the US for this, when the UK is even closer to a full-on Orwellian police-state than the US is. Isn't it the UK that has more surveillance cameras per capita than anywhere? Don't you have some of the most restrictive gun-control laws in the world? Wasn't it in the UK that a 17 year old kid was arrested for merely possessing a copy of "The Anarchists Cookbook?"

The bottom line is that "We The People" need to stand up and take back control of our respective countries, whether it's the UK or the US. In two nations with the heritage of Freedom and Liberty like the two of ours (can you say "Magna Carta?" "Declaration of Independence?" etc?) how can we be the people allowing this kind of totalitarianism to overtake us?

Somebody bloody well needs to do something, before fascists take over and destroy two once-noble nations.

[BitTwister]

@Nick H

> The only reason you HAVE the freedom to spout this nonsense is because of the US.

Oh dear oh dear - you *silly* twisted boy.

It's because of willy-waving crap like this that many non-Merkins have a (unfair and largely undeserved) poor opinion of your side of the pond. And in your case, I'd suspect that many Merkins would rather keep you at bay with a ten foot pole too.

Except perhaps Bush and the other inmates of his monkey cage, all chucking poo at the world while dancing on the graves of the founding fathers. You'd be right at home there.

[Anonymous Coward]

To further fuel the fire(s) of paranoia...

As an airline "insider", I can safely say that this information sharing protocol for all "US airspace zone" is the logical extension to the unpublicised mandate of all international airspace being treated as "american skies". That mandate will be "exercised" once these protocols are successfully implemented.

Some place this extension of information gathering to be in place by 2010. I would safely assume they have the necessary infrastructure already in place to monitor/mine the data, as it is already done surreptitiously under existing "black

helicopter ops". This just makes it legal ... and forces, through the slippery slopes of precedent, the imposition of US law on external sovereign entities...

Mexico and Canada being relatively easy to bring online (as staunch economic/security parters) and provides an excellent trial enviroment to roll out the "US law is World law" carpet. Feeling paranoid yet?

A real concern is the extension of this policy creating a real danger to the US --- all those wrongly placed on the no fly list that get angered enough to deserve placement on said list (self fulfilling prophecy anyone?)

IMHO, I don't think this will do anything exept create unnecessary havoc within the airline system and of course, all those innocent passengers. Most data collection simply cannot respond in real time to the threat: it is only of value in forensic analysis. Of course, I should not have to state the obvious:forged documentation nullifies the entire system. Unless of course one of you guys (or gals) has developed an algorithm that detects forgeries.... I digress...

Have you?!???!

[Kwac]

You people crack me up...

"Think you got a muslim problem now?"

Hmm - wonder how, when & why it started?

[Ferry Boat]

Coffee time here, I do declare

@Phillip Rhodes

Well, here is someone who has some sense. Don't matter where you are. It is down to the general populous to do something about this rubbish. Stop watching the ball-hocks on TV. There is more important stuff to do. Not just the UK and the USA being messed up, the whole world is a mess. The terrorists have won. Well, they don't have to do anything. Easy victory. Well done them. We are turning on ourselves.

Yes, the UK has more surveillance cameras per person than anywhere else (www.thecctvcompany.co.uk/cctvfacts.htm). Sad really. I even bought one myself.

To that Nick H chappie - well, you just need to go along and study some of the US foreign policy over the last 100 years. No time? No worries mate, here it is: Nasty foreign chap has whatever we want, we mess up your government, take over (CIA dope calypso), get what we want. Done.

Anyway, coffee time here. Bye.

[Anonymous Coward]

Retaliation

I cant wait to see the EU's retaliation to this one if it ever comes about.

[heystoopid]

It has begun

It has begun , the Union of the Soviet States of Amerika , the next step will be to tear up the Treaty of Ghent and fortify the Canadian Border , after that the whole country will become a prison camp for all it's citizens !

[Rick Boatright]

Misleading article

The proposed regulation is for the airlines to submit the people THAT THEY KNOW ABOUT beginning 72 hours prior to departure.

The hard-cut-off in the proposed regulation is 30 minutes prior to departure. That passenger information must be submitted 30 minutes prior. So, you can't show up at the airport and get a ticket and get on as the door is closing.

But hell, that's true _now_ with 30 minute lines for security and 30 minute lines for human assistance at the ticket counter.

I see no problem here.

[Chris]

It's times like these..

I'm glad I moved to Canada. I was in my first year of Uni in the US when the planes hit the towers, and my prof told the class that one of two things would happen, either the US security would collapse and would become an open country (Like it used to be.. you know, give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free?), or would completely close down on its self. I was telling people that as much as I hoped for the former, I knew the later would be the case.

I jumped at the first chance I had to move to Canada and become a permanent resident here.. going to be a citizen eventually. Best decision I ever made. Once we get MiniBush (Harper) out of office (he doesn't have much power right now, so the damage he can do is much more limited) we'll be peachy. The US scares me these days. I still visit my family every year in the states... but maybe not for much longer.

Oh, and the UK isn't any better.. all those cameras and just as many idiot policies. It's just the UK policies are more targetted to its own people I'd say, where as the US policeis try to give them a thin veil of protecting against external threats.

[Ivan Headache]

@Nick H

We don't have a Muslim problem, we just have one or two looney Muslims.

You on the other hand have scores of loony Christians.

[IMVHO]

sooooo...

Have they proposed a maximum turnaround time? If I'm about to embark on a 3-leg, 30 hour trip to America, and I need to get 'approval' 72 hours in advance of my departure (even if the last leg is the only one that is to, or over, America), and the turnaround is, say, 24 hours... ouch. The trip would have to be booked at least 5 days in advance.

Okay, let's propose an alternative. China did a great job of this a while back. Haliburton and a couple other private firms should be contracted to build a nice, picturesque wall around the entire country. Think of the tourist dollars that that would generate! Even better, they'd only have to maintain the outside of the wall if they add most of the earth's population to the no-fly list! Brilliant! Errrmm....

[Anonymous Coward]

The question is....

... does Nick own an iPhone?

[Svein Skogen]

I wonder,

What would make United Shitheads of America (The guys in DC!) get their act together the fastest? The political backlash from imposing the same rules on all Americans travelling abroad, as they are imposing on everybody else, or if the rest of the world stopped lending DC more money before they'd started to pay their debts?

I sincerely suggest that all US travellers get treated the same EVERYWHERE as USA treats foreigners in THEIR country, that is: Instinctively treat you as a criminal until otherwise proven.

I do also think that it would be a pretty good idea to refuse selling anything to ANYONE wanting to pay in US$, until the natinal debt is paid. In full.

//Svein

[Nick Ryan]

"Think you got a muslim problem now?"

Muslim problem? How's that for an flame inducing blinkered statement? Most Muslims, like Christians (and others), are fairly moderate, peaceful types. Heck, the holy books of each preach peace, forgiveness and the spreading of the faith.

It's the irritational, bigotted nutters that are the problem. Those that "read" poorly translated and re-written texts, remove them from all context and attempt to apply their words as, erm, "bible".

Thankfully the number of such nutters are quite low. Unfortunately a great way to increase the numbers of nutters is to invade other countries. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

[amanfromMars]

Repent, the End is Nigh ? :-)

"Time for a restoration of Imperial rule and wide dispersal of good ol' European pure bred sperm"

Where can we enrol for that Holy Program, Campbell?:-)

"Why don't we just hand over the keys to the Americans now and go home?

Because I have full confidence in the security of their databases" ....

but their databases would obviously give you zero confidence in them should you read the contents, Anonymous Coward .... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/12/crew_motion_for_backup_tapes/

Seems like the Privatisation of Democracy has hit a SOX w3c compliant snag ........ and the plan to outmob the Mob has hit an iceberg probably due in no small part to the coke mountain which addles their senses.

"Criticize the "Special Education" reject that sits in the Oval Office."...Crikey, Ogberi, the UK has one of those too, sitting in No 10 and at the Cabinet Office table.

"Oh, and I agree with Brendan, amanfrommars is making sense today. perhaps because it's friday?" .... Must be maybe a payday thing?

"The last time we left you to yourselves, you invented hitler. Great idea." .... Nick H, Your people must be cracked me up to invent OBL? What happened? Did they not understand the Obi-Wan Kenobi Life Parallel?

Which, if it be true, would make .."So it's fine by me - you guys stay out of the US - and hopefully we can return ALL of our troops home. None of you deserve our help. The only reason you HAVE the freedom to spout this nonsense is because of the US. So knock yourselves out. Hopefully next time we'll just wave and let you sink." just a little bit sick, Nick H.

Although probably cracked up says it all so please "Take your toys and go home" which pretty much tells IT like it is.

And how pathetic that Hollywood is so impotent ....... although that is probably due to them having no Real Script to Follow religiously for Powerful Continuity. A Simple Failure which Money provides.

Uncle Sam hasn't QuITe got the hang of this Cyber Control Lark, have they, because if they had, we wouldn't be having these conversations. And that leaves them, Vulnerable by Default, to anything and everything Sensibly Shared.

I wonder how they would propose to Fix that Omission should they propose to Fix that Omission?

[Dave Harris]

My muslim problem...

...is that she won't go to bed on time, and tries to fight with her baby brother, and that he hasn't got any teeth yet

Sadly*, it's going to be "sorry, kids, we can't go to disneyworld, the country it's in thinks you or your mum might try to blow it up"

*ok, not sadly, disneyworld only looks fun to me during the annual yellowfest in January

[Spider]

US goes it alone? not a good plan there....

Nick H

"...The last time we left you to yourselves, you invented hitler. Great idea.

So it's fine by me - you guys stay out of the US - and hopefully we can return ALL of our troops home. None of you deserve our help. The only reason you HAVE the freedom to spout this nonsense is because of the US. So knock yourselves out. Hopefully next time we'll just wave and let you sink..."

Because the US has a great track record of unilateral intervention.Somalia=loss, Bay of Pigs=fiasco, Iran-contra=embarrasing, Vietnam=well, we won't go there right now.

Every time there's a co-ordinated approach with a county that can outhink an orange? Sierra Leone, Cold War, Former Yugoslavia, the conflict phases of the gulf, Korea.. . turns out a bit better really.

As for not blaming the population, unfortunately in a democracy the right thinking are doomed to pay the price for the ignorant majority. Otherwise we'd have got rid of the Blair/Brown gestalt years ago...

I think John Carpenter's doing the planning for the future US policy, where's Plisken when you need him?

[Mike Smith]

@NickH - you wanna argue history, get your facts right

"The last time we left you to yourselves, you invented hitler."

Get this through your thick head, sunshine. If it hadn't been for US "help" at the end of the First World War, it's unlikely that Hitler would ever have become more than a struggling artist and wannabe politician.

The big mistake Clemenceau and Lloyd George made was to agree to the implementation of Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points. Irrespective of the right and wrongs of the situation, the Hapsburg Empire was a sizeable check against Germany. Breaking it up, and dividing Germany, resulted in a lot of small states, based around ethnic majorities, that had next to no established political systems or armed forces and were not particularly well suited to independent survival. Czechoslovakia, Austria, Romania and Poland all contained sizeable German minorities - enough to give some justification to Hitler's foreign policies and let him gather some foreign support. He had more justification, I might add, than your government had for invading Iraq.

That's without the Washington Naval Treaty. Your government explicitly threatened a transatlantic arms race. Britain had a world-wide empire and needed a large navy. You didn't. League of Nations? Yeah, only as long as the US was the big bully boy. If the US had been told to get lost at Versailles, WW2 might have been avoided.

And when the chips were down, after 1929, you fucked off into isolationism, just when things were ripe for extremism to flourish in Europe. People in Germany were scared of a repeat of the 1920s inflation. Enough of them voted for the Nazis that the most democratic decision President Hindenburg could do was to appoint Hitler Chancellor.

The rest, as they say, is history.

That's why we need the EU, and for it to be strong enough to shake the US government warmly by the throat if need be. Europe has suffered enough from America's selfish attitude and ignorant idealism.

[Chris Harden]

Title

@Anon:

"Regarding the Muslims and Russians ... it's you they have a problem with, because you are such complete arseholes.

We in the UK have unfortunately gotten ourselves into trouble because we are helping you.

[sentence excised by Reg Moderator]"

Wow, considering the usual content of El Reg comments....I would love to know what managed to get itself moderated....

Maybe it made too much sense for a Friday?

[Alex Rose]

@RRRoamer

"Pull all of our boys home and let the EU take care of paying to secure there own damn borders"

Take a look at a map of the world sometime and note that neither Iraq nor Afghanistan borders the EU. And it's "their" borders.

[Drew]

Wendy is WRONG - this will NOT prevent flying to the U.S.

There are already plenty of things broken in the world so we don't need to invent new ones. Please don't add to the plethora of (mis)information. To quote astute reader "Rob" who accurately stated:

-----------------------------------------------

Christ! I take it none of you buggers bothered to read the pdf before diving in to slag off all things American?

OK, first off:

YOU CAN STILL BOOK A LAST MINUTE FLIGHT AND FLY. [emphasis added]

Got that? The airlines only have to provide whatever info they already have at the 72 hour mark.

It's there in B&W. The documents says "Additionally, for reservations made within 72 hours of scheduled flight departure time, covered aircraft operators would be required to transmit Secure Flight Passenger Data as soon as possible."

In other words, TSA is saying "It would be difficult to check all the records at the last minute, but if we get most of them in advance, we can do the remaining ones at short notice, no problem.

Second, while the airlines have to provide all the info listed IF AVAILABLE, you only have to give them your full name. Again, from TFD:

"As currently proposed, it is optional for individuals to provide their date of birth and gender in order to provide individuals with the greatest ability to exercise control over the data elements provided. For the vast majority of individuals, a decision to forgo providing these data elements should have no effect and will result in aircraft operators, reservations agents, and TSA holding less information. For what is expected to be a relatively small number of individuals, however, a decision not to provide date of birth and gender will result in an inability to automatically distinguish them from someone on the watch list."

[Svein Skogen]

I suggest

that the rest of the world starts to treat US citizens abroad, just the same way USA treats any foreigner there. Like criminals.

I also suggest

that until the USofA has started paying down their international debt, the rest of the world stops accepting US$ as payment, as it's obvious the US$ is about to collapse totally (unless the USofA does something drastic).

Two simple steps, to handle a country that has gone down the drain totally.

//Svein

[Luke Dixon]

The Answer...

...is really simple. Why not simply extend the wall that the US have been building along a large section of the border with Mexico. Extend it right around the whole of the USA and stop any foreigners flying, sailing, swimming or walking into the USA. Or over it. Or under it. Now, the next step is to repatriate all US citizens back to "god's own country". Then send all of the foreigners that are in the USA back "home".

That should sort everything out, once and for all, eh?

Oh. It will only be Red Indians left there then, won't it...

[graeme leggett]

UK police state

"? Don't you have some of the most restrictive gun-control laws in the world"

and this is a bad thing because....?

[El (not Reg)]

I will fly, freely, or I will find another way...

Fortunately, there are ways & means to get in to, & out of, a country other than through an airport. Back channels will always exist, regardless of state. There is always a way to neutralise anything that a government chooses to push upon people. Likewise, a monolithic government (whether America, the EU or whichever) will never be able to overcome every last grain of humanity. Their gargantuan size makes them obvious targets as 'mechanisms to be spannered' - & simply spannered they are. The correct cog jammed, removed etc. & the whole thing will become ineffectual. The People are not so fearful as those in government; officials who succeed in self-reinforcing state-detectionist ideals, with colleagues.

Constance: As a non-American, if this is any small comfort; I still have a shred of good faith in the America, which you speak of. My word is my bond; rebuild this knowledge, & your country will be restored.

[Walter Brown]

1. RE@Guy... 2. Welcome to the U.S.S.A.

First of all, you non mathematical geniuses, Guy has it right you dumb asses, its 4 days, yes count them 4, because uncle Sergei wants not less than 72 hours (3 days) of advanced time before you are allowed to board a plane in, near or headed to the U.S.S.A.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The Answer

Can we add a lid to keep the fumes in?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont take it out on the American people.

They have had their government by the people stolen. Now it is government of the people by the corporations. doesn't matter who wins the election ALL of them are in the pocket of one interest or another.

[Hank Hogan]

Title

The folks who thought up and wrote this idiotic proposal apparently have their own private jets and therefore, won't be personally effected by such rules. In all their short-sightedness, they probably think this would somehow out-smart those determined terrorists.

[Anonymous Coward]

"when you own the media you own opinion"

I was born american. I'm a Canuck, through and through now. I remember being online 11 Sep 01, and having someone in Australia tell me to turn on the news. I also recall commenting as the first of the towers fell that there would soon be a war.

I've an open mind, since most of my relatives are american, on american people.

Its quite clear that ever since the americans caved in to the bankers and dropped the gold standard, something other than rational human interest is running the country.

It is not the people, but the institutions that manage the country that are precipitating the anger, hate, and despite that are aimed back at 'americans'. Unfortunately most americans can often not see outside the mass media that has been stuffed down their collective throats since birth.

Given that large numbers of them never get to learn about *all* of history, these folks tend to have terrible perceptions of what has occurred in the past. Unfortunately, this makes it easy for the industrial clique that runs the country to manipulate opinions in a direction that fills their pocketbook. And tends to make those american folks that want to have a rational country easy targets for ridicule.

Especially since the media are ..... oh - right - - they're part of the clique now aren't they?

Certainly, its apparent to me and I'm sure quite a few folk, that overall, humanity is giving in to the collective 'path of least resistance' of late. There are no exceptions to this, as essentially across the globe, big business is frequently calling the political shots just about everywhere. Now, is this a good thing or a bad thing?

If you need to make money and have the right investments, its a very good thing. If you have a heart, and care about your fellow human beings, no matter where they live --- it becomes ***much*** less of a good thing.

[Tawakalna]

however..

..you could just not fly at all! I don't, haven't for some years now, sick to death of overbearing security and interminable queues. I get trains, or drive, or catch boats, and other than the occasional "are all these parcels yours' sir?" I rarely get bothered and I can have a nice relaxing nap whenever i want, and no cramped cattle class, no trolley dollies, no microwaved slop. Course it means I'm limited to the Continent and surrounding areas like N Africa and Iceland, but who wants to go anywhere further?

and this year we went to Devon, and very nice it was too. The Kid wanted to go to Disneyworld, but after I explained about the Great Satan and how Mickey was a servant of Iblis and George Bush would send him to Guantanamo for not being American, he came round to my way of thinking :)

[Andy]

Can't visit, Won't visit

I am a university graduate, self-employed, fairly well off, intelligent, law-abiding and a positive member of society. I'm even white and know enough of the Bible to pass as Christian (these are apparently valuable traits in America).

But I won't even bother asking America for entrance.

More importantly though, how will alien species continue to explore the anal cavities of American farmers? This important research is being threatened by the xenophobic policies of the American government. I strongly suspect that aliens will simply choose to investigate the backsides of Europeans and America will lose valuable trade revenue.

[amanfromMars]

The OED says ......

Government ....a business with no invested material assets of its own and a hand in the pockets and tills of everyone elses.

Crikey crumbs, Bunter, that sounds suspiciously like a criminal scam/conspiracy.

[Greg]

@Nick H

"The last time we left you to yourselves, you invented hitler. Great idea."

I take it you didn't do history in school, then?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sad, but we have lost the war.

As more and more of this legislation is put in place to "protect" us when we travel, I simly find myself thinking more and more that the bad guys have won.

The threat of some madman taking over another plane and crashing into a building has now resulted in a frighteningly Orwellian interest in everyone who might be a passenger on an aircraft which IMHO is not making flying any safer, the terrorists are brighter than that and a less subtle approach has been more successful in causing fear, see the events in Glasgow earlier this year.

I honestly don't believe the next attack will be of the type carried out on 9/11. The Bali bombing and the London underground attacks prove that the simple aproach of subverting the mind of a young person and persuading them to walk into a crowded place before detonating themselves is a much more effective form of attack. The fear and paranoia this created saw many young asians with rucksacks treated with fear and the shooting of one young man whose identity was mistaken.

All this approach does is to prove that the authorities are afraid of what the next attack will be and where it will come from. Even with intelligence on who is involved in rabble rousing, the terroroists will still be able to carry out their attacks while governments further restrict the rights of individuals. If this is not losing the war then what is?

[mego]

@michael

>>Oh, and by the way (rest of the world, I'm looking at you), that means no more AIDS money for Africa, no more food for famine stricken countries, no more defense of Iceland (to insert random useless trivia)

---

Eh, you mean the countries you coerced into "freedom", then after they were dropped in the crapper then "swooped in like hero's to save them"? Dunno what I mean?

Vietnam.

Gulf War.

Zimbabwe.

Cuba.

Heck, even South Africa has started the slow fall to chaos thanks to your meddling. Wonder why the world hates you? Think about this: why did you attack iraq? Don't bother with the canned bollox about "Weapons of Mass Destruction". There were none, and you knew it.

>>all their shiny collective nukes.

-------

You mean like the ones USA threatens the rest of the world with if they don't fall in line? Whoa, talk about blinkers on.

>>You see, it's very easy for the rest of the world to talk smack whilst standing behind your big brother. But what happens when he doesn't have your back anymore? You get your ass whooped by the big kid next door, that's what. Have fun with that.

____

You put people obviously guilty of nothing in Gitmo - with no trial, explanation, basic human rights, or even so much as an apology when you realize they're innocent.. yet you've got my back? You gotta be joking. What kinda crazy planet do you come from where this is a benefit?

Wake up buddy. The world dislikes the US for a reason - get your noses out of everyone's business, and leave the oil that doesn't belong to you alone.

[Anonymous Coward]

Saving Anyone?

At some point the "investment" in security kills more people than the investment saves. Hundreds or thousands of person years of work to save a few planes and people on the ground is a relatively poor return, considering what could be bought with the resource. However, they are DIFFERENT and faceless people... and don't show up on a bureaucrat's performance report.

Just think, we'd have really good cancer detection if the cancers had a 1% chance of blowing up at 10000M altitude.

[wim]

obvious

This is a plot designed by the IT community in USA.

A great opportunity to get some work back into USA. Who will design all these databases and the checking programs ?

[Legless]

@ Nick H

Yup - the world would certainly be in better shape if you took your toys home and didn't play with the rest of the kids. Let's see who you've attacked in the last 50 years..

Korea and China 1950-53 (Korean War)

Guatemala 1954

Indonesia 1958

Cuba 1959-1961

Guatemala 1960

Congo 1964

Laos 1964-73

Vietnam 1961-73

Cambodia 1969-70

Guatemala 1967-69

Grenada 1983

Lebanon 1983, 1984 (both Lebanese and Syrian targets)

Libya 1986

El Salvador 1980s

Nicaragua 1980s

Iran 1987

Panama 1989

Iraq 1991 (Persian Gulf War)

Kuwait 1991

Somalia 1993

Bosnia 1994, 1995

Sudan 1998

Afghanistan 1998

Yugoslavia 1999

Yemen 2002

Iraq 1991-2003 (US/UK on regular basis)

Iraq 2003-05

Afghanistan 2001-05

Plus

Iran, April 2003 -- hit by US missiles during bombing of Iraq, killing at least one persdon {2}

Pakistan, 2002-03 -- bombed by US planes several times as part of combat against the Taliban and other opponents of the US occupation of Afghanistan {3}

China, 1999 -- its heavily bombed embassy in Belgrade is legally Chinese territory, and it appears rather certain that the bombing was no accident (see chapter 25)

France, 1986 -- After the French government refused the use of its air space to US warplanes headed for a bombing raid on Libya, the planes were forced to take another, longer route; when they reached Libya they bombed so close to the French embassy that the building was damaged and all communication links knocked out.{4}

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, May 13, 1985 -- A bomb dropped by a police helicopter burned down an entire block, some 60 homes destroyed, 11 dead, including several small children. The police, the mayor's office, and the FBI were all involved in this effort to evict a black organization called MOVE from the house they lived in.

[Anonymous Coward]

What a shame......

that such a beautiful Country has such a DH for a president. I have travelled a lot around USA in the past but wouldnt go back there now as they have too many problems and too many ridiculous laws. Pity really as I would love to go back but too scary.

[Anonymous Coward]

It sure feels bad to be treated...

the way Europe treats us...

I am an Indian citizen, resident in India. I need to pre-apply for a transit visa if I take any flight that transits through any European airport, even if I am not going to clear immigration at the transit airport, my checked in bags have been through booked to the final destination, and my final destination is not in Europe. I need to apply for the visa at least a week before my travel dates. I would think this is far more onerous than the US requirements.

Welcome to how the vast majority of the world is treated...

[Rob]

@ Anonymous Coward, India

err... Isn't that just the same as the way India treats Europeans?

[Anonymous Coward]

But Clinton...

I have a parallel to the Republican American's catch all response to criticism of George Bush by Democrats for use when the USA is being criticised by the British:

"But CCTV cameras..."

[Mr Larrington]

@Greg

"I take it you didn't do history in school, then?"

I think he just watched "U-571" and extrapolated...

In any case, when flying cars become reality, we can swamp their systems.

Coat...door...flying taxi

[David Cantrell]

Big deal

It's not like anyone with their head screwed on right would choose to go there anyway these days.

[Andrew Moore]

No more...

I used to visit the US regularly both for business and pleasure and I'm happy to state that I stopped going once Chimpy McFlightsuit was inaugarated. I'm kind of reminded of the Stasi and Checkpoint Charlie everytime I see the US checkins...

And @ Ogberi

The Second Amendment declares:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

As it could be argued that you no longer have a free State, isn't it time the gun nuts rose up against the government instead of arming schoolchildren???

[Anonymous Coward]

@Rob...

Not quite.

If, for some strange reason, you travel from London to Singapore, with a change of planes in Delhi, you do not need to get an Indian transit visa, as long as you do not leave the airport.

If a citizen of India (or a large number of Asian countries) flies from Delhi to Nairobi, with a change of planes in any of the EU airports, that person needs a transit visa even if he does not leave the airport.

[Nicole]

Ignorance is Bliss

I am simply going to continue to live in my own self perpetuated illusion that this is a bad dream, that what I just read is a giant lie, hoax, joke! Somehow this ignorance seems more blissful than that which inspires such dribble in the first place.

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot...

Chile, since the States essentially admited putting Pinochet into power, in place of the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED president, even though they deny that he killed anyone, and if he did, it was ok, because he was 'good for the country'. Makes me think of Holocaust denial in plenty of ways.

There's also Venezuala, after Chavez was first ELECTED, the US funded a coup attempt in which Chavez was captured and held hostage in the parliament building. The people then rose up and surrounded the building before the military joined them and stormed the building. This is one of the reasons that Chavez is now so popular and a thorn in America's side.

The thing is, I've been to the States, including Texas and Utah, and they're all very nice people. Granted I'm white, and I have no idea how they would treat me if I wasn't, but in general they were really friendly people. I do have a very big problem with the current administration, but that has nothing to do with about 50% of the people in the States, so I don't want to tar them all with the same brush. The Americans who we get the biggest stereotypes are the big, loud, messy tourist types, but at least they leave the country occasionally.

My real problem is with the idiots who quite happily beat the drum for Mr. Bush and the 'War on Terror' without taking any notice of what's really happening in their 'free' country. Of course, even they can't be held fully accountable - have you ever actually had the stomach to watch a full episode of Fox News?

While these measures don't really offer any threat to customers, they make it more difficult for airlines (I would imagine) which will end up dripping through to the customers, which will further affect the already damaged US tourist trade, which will further affect the economy which is already hurt by the war. Not too rosy.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Michael

RE : Your AIDS money. Listen fuckwit, your AIDS money comes with a no abortion clause. You can damn well keep it. During Clinton this money at least was put to some use. Now its helping gay bashing religious types under Bush.

Theres lots of things the world would like the US to sort out, its such a shame that it is not interested.

Yes, please, stay in your own terrorist wonderland you have created, where people with machine guns ferry you from one check in to another.

[Anonymous Coward]

Can everyone just calm down here...

This is a document from Homeland Security, having been produced in response to the question "how can we secure our borders?". They responded, and outlined HOW they would be able to verify the safety of passengers using it's airspace. The 72 hours is the time they NEED to verify the passenger data. The report also says:

"TSA welcomes public comment on this timeframe, as well as on alternate timeframes, and will consider these comments in the development of the final rule. As always, comments that include an analytical justification are most useful."

So comment, and tell them your concerns. And when corporate America get their teeth into it and have it changed or canceled, don't suddenly be on the other side just because you all love US bashing.

[Anonymous Coward]

The real problem here is..

Americans are lazy fat cowards. They are more concerned with their new X-Box or PS/3. 15% of us are fighting like hell to save this country.. The rest are just fat lazy sheep being lead to the slaughter. Once the Government goes totally fascist, they will be crying 'help us!'. Bush and Company need to be removed NOW. If your not going to help then you ARE part of the problem. Stupid people still believe in America. Land of the cowards, Home of the Slaves. Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to breed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans

Gee, except for some "native" Americans who arrived 10,000 years earlier than the rest of us, American people are mainly immigrants from countries that are giving us so much s*it.

So bashing the American people, is klnd of like hitting yourselves in the head, go ahead if it "floats your boat", but we are you.

If you want to bash the US government, go ahead. Its the number 1 spectator sport amoung our citizens.

World opinion of America? Who cares.

And "people with machine guns"? Please! I flew through Heathrow in the 70's, when anyone Irish would make the machine gun totin' coppers piss themselves.

[kain preacher]

@By Anonymous Coward

Wow so all the rabid American hating Europeans DONT READ THAT ITS REQUIRING THAT ALL AVAILBE DATA BE TRANSMITTED 72 hours advance NOT THAT THE FLIGHT HAS TO BE BOOKED 72 HOURS IN ADVANCE.

No It just another chance to rip on the US. before you short your mouth off read.

as Anonymous Coward has pointed out this is less restrictive than what Europe does to some countries. The moment the US does it, its omg the big bad evil US.

To the guy thaty says the US dollar needs to collapse you have do idea what that will do to the rest of the world. Just more rabid American hating with out thought

[Legless]

Can I Just Add...

.

That lastminute.com is now truly fucked?

Cheers

Legless

[Anonymous Coward]

You're all right.....

In fact... we should have all stayed British. Oh.. wait.. GB never has been in control of other countries... only the naughty US has ever done anything like that.

And if GB ever had done such a thing... it all ran perfectly smoothly and was completely safe and fair to those indigenous peoples..... No crime or atrocities against any of those British subjects..... That whole bit about India was just staged to make the movie about Gandi 3 hours long.....

Unless every citizen of every country completely divorces themselves from their own history... there's not a one on the planet that can point fingers at the US and say.. 'we've never done anything like that.'

It's almost humorous, in a way... it's like people aren't willing to accept the fact that the US can make the same mistakes that pretty much every other country in the world has made at one time or other.

[Anonymous Coward]

@ Americans

As a friend of mine described an encounter in a New York bar a few weeks..

'Gee don't you miss the old country? from a septic who was about five generations removed from Ireland.

My friend replied: " No, I'm english born and bred' His mother is 100 per cent Irish.

Americans are basically the dross of Europe, cast out from country with no history oftheir own which is why they adopt European roots, and make up for their groos infieriority complex by haveing to have everythig bigger and better.. my dicks bigger than yours.

As they are very fond of saying, we've lost a war which is why Vietrnam is alwsy described as a conflict.

Regarding airspace.. They can keep it.. just stay out of mine!!!

[Chris]

As a representitive of the good ol' US of A.....

I'd like to piss off a good portion of my countrymen (including wifey).

On September 11th, 2001 2,726 people died in the World Trade Center according to the center for disease control. 161,269 people died from injuries in 2002. 696,947 people died from heart disease. The 11th of September was a tragic incident, but just a tragic incident. I do not mean to take anything away from people who had loved ones die in the attack, but their deaths should not count more than the man who was murdered innocently as he worked a convience store, the ex-wife who was shot down by an estranged husband, or any other senseless act of violence. The deaths of the World Trade Center were a pinprick of tragedy and should be treated as such.

But in the United States of America, it's not so simple. We've always had a fuck with us, we'll kick your ass sort of attitude. It's instilled in us from being shit on over three hundred years ago and evidence of this attitude is even visable in our Constitution. It's why we love Israel. It's how we are. Sometimes this can lead to good things - Liberation of Europe post Pearl Harbor. Sometimes this can lead to bad things - Unending wars in the Middle East. It is what it is, and it will take hundreds more years before we lighten up/smarten up.

Unfortunatly this mindfuck Dirty Harry attitude leads us to run around like Chicken Little yelling "The sky is falling! Don't you see it! The sky is falling! Terrorists!" What we don't get is that, we will never have everyone love us. We had the opportunity to come close post September 11th, but we had to go fuck that up. We had condolances from anti-American governments who had recently blasted us and an opportunity to form a true cooperation of nations. But we fucked it up. Instead of being open, welcoming collaboration, embracing other ideas, etc we decided to lock ourselves up in our fences for protection. And we keep upgrading the fences. Barbed wire, electrified, etc. We have literal physical fences on the Mexican border.

But in the most ironic part of the whole story, the gates to keep out the terrorists were already in place on September 11th. Box cutters were not allowed on planes, and all passengers were screened with metal detectors before boarding. But rather than patching the hole in the pre-existing proverbial fence and holding the fuckheads who missed the box cutters responsible, we divert the attention. We had measures in place that should have prevented the attacks, and we should go back to enforcing these measures. Nothing more, nothing less. That's it, problem solved. No playing shoot 'em up in foreign countries, no secret police, no killing our tourism industry. Really - other than the people the United States is a great place to visit.

I've heard all sorts of bullshit about air screeners not doing their job because they were paid the minimum wage. Just because a person is responsible for safety does not mean that we pay them huge sums of money. It doesn't work like that. It's skills required to perform job -> money paid. It might suck, but we don't pay based on societal value. And we never will.

So in my proposed solution (el Reg can accept the Peace Prize on my behalf) my country needs to go back to the way things were, and make sure people responsible for others' saftey correctly perform their occupational duties.

And to people on the other side of the pond who would like us to lighten up - The best way to affect progress is not to call us morons. It's hard to swallow. We know that, but being called an idiot never educates. (For a real world example, see how well we cultivated democracy in Iraq by telling people "this is the way it is.") And I do believe you shot a man to death who was going for his cell phone in the tunnel. And the "Sky is falling!" over the bus bombings.

What we need from you are more good Dr. Who episodes. Our scifi and Kevin Sorbo suck a big one. And maybe some pub food. Oh and your Royal Family. We need that more than you do. And maybe Ricky Gervais.

Seriously - let it go. Laugh at each other. Work together. Work with our mental problems, we'll work with yours and then we'll all meet in Sealand for the tele-dildonics chainsaw tonguelashing smutfest. We'll even bring some shitty Budweiser and Arnie in T2 garb.

[kain preacher]

Lost vietnam ??

PIck up a book it was the Vietnamese's that lost Vietnam.. US left Vietnam after there was a peace treaty. it was only after control was handed over that Vietnam was lost.

[Rob]

@ Anonymous Coward and Anonymous Coward

[For clarity, the two most recent vendors of bigoted anti American shite.]

That's my wife you're talking about. Cunts!

In fairness, we Brits aren't exactly lilly white, and the US has it's share of arseholes too. But I'd still take England or the US over Tehran or Moscow. So how about we all calm down a bit?

[Rob]

and just to prove that I'm not all about being pro-yank...

Chris - you're one retarded fuck, aren't you? Just to pick one example from your feed of shite, you say:

"But in the most ironic part of the whole story, the gates to keep out the terrorists were already in place on September 11th. Box cutters were not allowed on planes, and all passengers were screened with metal detectors before boarding. But rather than patching the hole in the pre-existing proverbial fence and holding the fuckheads who missed the box cutters responsible, we divert the attention. We had measures in place that should have prevented the attacks, and we should go back to enforcing these measures."

How old were you in 2001? 5 years old? Maybe 10? Certainly not of an age to ever have flown alone, with responsibility for packing your own shit.

Let me make this simple for you - box cutters were not prohibited items as at 11 Sept 2001. That's how the psycho fucks got them on the aeroplanes. Which fact pretty much demonstrates that your entire argument is turd.

And, by the way, I'm given to understand that Kevin Sorbo's good friend Chuck Norris is not to happy about you slagging off his mate's excellent SF work.

[Mr Larrington]

@Chris

Chris, you are welcome to Ricky Gervais. Just so long as you don't re-export the traagivcally unfunny believes-his-own-publicity ********** back here.

I'm going to get lynched for this, aren't I...

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder...

The US Constitution guarantees the right to travel to those (US citizens) who wish to visit their government to "redress grievances". In the case of certain fast tracked legislation, 72 hours is much too long a time to have to wait to address problems to a Senator or Congressman. I wonder if the TSA is planning on granting special exceptions to those who wish to exercise their Constitutionally guaranteed rights or if they plan on ignoring that section of the Constitution also?