back to article 'Bloody foreigners' is racist taunt, say Lords

It can be racist to make reference to "bloody foreigners" even if the insult is no more specific than that, the House of Lords has ruled. The decision was made in a case where a man's abusive words and behaviour were judged to have been racially aggravated. A Mr Rogers was on his way home from the pub in the mobility scooter …

COMMENTS

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  1. Chris Collins

    Wrong epithet

    This why I use the generic term "c*nt" when referring to fellow road users. However, I admit this may be sexual discrimination. Perhaps the House of Lords could issue guidlines on acceptable terms for abusing strangers on the street, seeing as we don't live in some kind of touchy-feely utopia.

  2. Nicholas Wright

    Community Service?

    > "A Mr Rogers was on his way home from the pub in the mobility scooter he uses because of his arthritis."

    Poor guy.

    > "... 80 hours community service...."

    Er...

    > "... mobility scooter he uses because of his arthritis..."

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Coming up in the Queens speech..

    "My government will take steps to detain and imprison for 90 days without trial all those either suspected or confirmed to believe or express that either the French are surrender monkeys, that the Spanish should stop being lazy, that the Germans really do love fighting wars, or that the Italians were better in roman times.

    My government will take steps to ensure that these foul people are imprisoned for the rest of their natural life never again to speak a bad word about those countries which this great nation spend the last thousand years waging war with."

    -- HRH The Queen

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The thought police are watching you

    By the same token, "bloody locals" is also racist.

    Therefore any abusive term is racially aggravated as the person must belong to some definable grouping or other. Excepting Joss Stone, naturally.

    It is now well along the path to development that anyone who feels offended against must have been the victim of a criminal offence.

    Feel free to be "Empowered" by our mate Big Tone at No. 10 and his Civil Service, Trendy Liberal chums into a condition of utter emasculation. Only the state may have freedom.

    O-oh.... "emasculation?" . Someone is offended that the word is sexist.

    Oh well, it's me for some Porridge...

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    On your magic swirling ship

    "It is argued that Spaniards are covered but foreigners, that is the non-British, are not. The same argument would presumably be made about a person who showed hostility towards all non-whites, irrespective of the particular racial group to which they belonged."

    I disagree. Spanish is a nationality, whereas "non-white" is a race, or a collection of racial groups. People can change their nationalities; it might take a lot of work, but ultimately a person's nationality is just a tick-bit on a government database. It is a matter of choice. Phil Collins has chosen to be Swiss. People who are born in one country, but grow up in another, choose to adopt a nationality. It is of no consequence that a person is automatically granted nationality in the place of his or her birth.

    This man was berating the pedestrians for their choice of nationality, just as he might berate BMW drivers for their choice of car. When I insult French people - who may be white, black, or purple - it is not because I detest their genetic heritage, it is because I dislike their system of government and their general obnoxiousness, both of which are a choice of behavour that they choose to adopt (in order to anger me).

    I think the person making the judgement has confused the nature of nationality with the Sgt Hartman-style "I detest all of you equally as worthless pukes" attitude. Perhaps the defence was barking up the wrong tree.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Of insults and double-standards

    At risk of being shot down by pedants, I thought "bloody" was a corruption of "by our lady" - an expression of veracity in the best High Church tradition. In which case, "bloody foreigners" means "really, truly foreigners" which seems appropriate when applied to Spanish people in the UK, as it would UK citizens in Spain.

    Perhaps its being a "foreigner" which is offensive ;)

    If he was abusive, waving his walking stick threateningly, fine - convict him for that. Criminalisation based on particular thoughts is absurd. How can stealing someone's handbag because they have a large nose be less evil than stealing it because they were born outside of your area? Convict on the act of theft - leave the posturing and inevitable double-standards out of it.

    Taking Hale's assertion that xenophobia and racism are the targets of the laws attempting to criminalise the demeaning of people as "other", I would suggest that any insult does this. How many insults are hurled which include the speaker in the target? To suggest that the "simple" insults don't divide people is ridiculous.

    Taking the moral high-ground as defending against xenophobia and the hurtful name-calling of foreigners is also rather rich coming from the government. Are you out-of-work with a baby, deserted by your baby's father? Here's a house and some money to buy food. What? You weren't born locally to the right parents and you don't have the right identity papers? Not only will we tell you to "go home, foreigner", we'll frogmarch you onto a plane to make sure you go back to your poverty-stricken, disease-ridden foreign land. Maybe we'll even spend billions trying to electronically track the entire populace and blame "foreigners" for having to do it!

    I'm so glad *we* don't have a racist government!

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Thats not rascist!

    IMHO racism is an act of prejudice against those of another race or creed, specifically against them because of their genetic heritage rather than their national heritage. The phrase bloody foreigners is non specific and therefore could be more accurately described as nationalism rather than racism.

    I must say, the French are cowards, the Germans although quality people _have_ been raving extreme nationalists, the Spaniards are lazy tw@s and the Italians were indeed better off when they were romans. The Greeks are still riding the waves of socrates and pythagoras and have extreme arrogance about this (i know a Greek girl who agrees with this in fact she pointed it out to me), and well what do I have to say about the americans, nothing that hasn't been said already.

    And although I may be prejudicial about these people, it doesn't mean I hate them nor am I a hate monger. Introduce me to a single Frenchman who isn't a cowardly arrogant git and I may change my mind, however I've not met one yet, and I've met quite a few.

    Stereotypes help us group people and help us understand what to expect from them.

    The only reason these stereotypical view points come to be a problem is when some moron decides to take things too far and have a cripple convicted and told to do some 80 hours community service... hang on a second, isn't that more than Naomi camble got for thwacking her maid?

    Bloody foreigners

    Name with-held on the grounds that I may be prosecuted for racism...

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What Value for Money our Legal System is

    All that effort to come to a useless conclusion. Should I perhaps now go around to the police station and ask them kindly to arrest me for religious intolerance ("I can't bring myself to trust these damned Methodists"), treason ("I detest these stupid politicians and grudge the expense of lawyers") and drug abuse ("no, I don't need a bloody asprin").

  9. jh

    Can I shout at British?

    Hi,

    I'm planning to come to the UK this year (I'm German). If any comment on the British (driving skills for example) should slip out, what sentence can I expect? Will that be racist or terrorist (community service or Guantanamo Bay)?

    Cheers,

    JH

  10. Liam

    Pah!

    Ive been saying for ages that xenophobia is different from racism - but most people are far too dumb to agree - good to see some very valid and educated opinions above :)

    surely thinking less of other NATIONALITIES (not races or creeds) is just being patriotic?

    for example i also dislike the french (who doesnt - but then i also dislike londoners - who i admit are like the french - they just speak poorer english, have a massive shoulder chip and are even more grumpy ;)) and me thinking less of them means i obviously think more of england - see... a kind of back handed patriotism :)

    the world is going 'bloody' mad at the moment. as im not a racist (colour or greed means nothing to me) i agree not to use certain phrases and actually wouldnt want to - but how is a black guy calling me a 'cracker' any different from the N word or the old 70s favourite 'chalky' etc.... its no different in my eyes.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The best politicians money can buy. All the justice you can afford

    JH,

    You may say anything you please.

    Our Civil Service will respect and value your diversity and culture above our own.

    That, and the prisons are full too.

    Ah, but if you have a dusky skin complexion then expect our finest Boys in Blue to unload-a-cap-in-yo-mutha-ass if you should start running for a train.

  12. Fferret

    Can you say...?

    ASBO in 3...2...1...

  13. Highlander

    What about Benny Hill and Carry On movies?

    What happens to the rich history of British comedy? All those Carry On movies must surely now be considered xenophobic claptrap and be banned. Benny Hill? Banned. Billy Connolly? Banned. Roy Chubby Brown? Isn't he going to be doing life for verbal abuse?

    I think the point here is that his behavior and intent were abusive. You can make just about any phrase an insult or sound abusive if you use the right tone and pick the right moment. It wasn't his words it was the way he used them and the specific situation.

    Good grief, are we supposed to edit movies, TV, music, radio, literature,etc... to remove such phrases? What would be left?

    Based on what the lawyers are saying in this instance it appears that no English person could ever refer to a Scot as a Jock, no northerner can ever call a southerner a southerner, never mind southern softy. What about the great tradition of Scots calling the English names? Oh, wait we should stop the Scots singing Flower of Scotland because it reminds us of racially charged times in history?

    Where will it end? ASBOs all round.

  14. Andy S

    drunk?

    Why has a bigger deal been made over the minor racist comment, than that fact that he was driving around on a scooter drunk at the time. (if he has just left the pub and managed to get into a confrontation with 3 women, i can comfortably assume he'd had a few drinks)

    Don't mobility scooters class as vehicles for the purposes of drink driving? as if not i could use one for when i am too drunk to walk home from the pub.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Spaniard is a race?

    So what race do black Spaniards belong to?

    Does this mean they are the same race as caucasian Spaniards?

    Or oriental Spaniards?

    Nationality and race are two different things.

    Only the bloody English could do something as daft as this (and I'm one of them!).

    Sorry, was that racist?

  16. storng.bare.durid

    Xenophobia versus Racism

    Xenophobia is different from racism.

    Totally agreed.

    While I agree you can't really call anyone a racist on face value, for calling someone a bloody foreigner though... but...

    What odds would you put on said scooter rider being racist AS WELL though? Hmmm?

  17. Tony

    I am glad to see...

    that the House of Lord is as f*cked up as the U.S. Government (at every level from the local level to the national level, and both Democrats and Republicans).

    Yes, it is good to see that tax paying citizens, the world over, are getting screwed by the people that are supposed to act in the best interest of those very same people.

    By the way, what race are the Spanish women...Caucasian? And was the man Caucasian as well?

    In the U.S. we are seeing the emergence of similar laws with more strict punishments for "Hate Crimes", are there any crimes committed out of love or friendship?

    God help us all.

    Sincerely,

    A Bloody Foreigner

  18. Graham Lockley

    Sod it

    I hate everyone who isnt me, xenophobics and racists are bloody pansies in my eyes !!

    Anyone care to reel out the number of laws I just broke ?

    :)

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