UK launches 'consultation' with EU over exclusion from science programs

The UK government has launched formal consultations with the EU over the failure to secure its inclusion in the EU's €95.5 billion ($97.6 billion) research funding program since the island nation left the world's richest trading bloc. Ministers said they wanted to end persistent delays to the UK's access to EU scientific …

[Anonymous Coward]

freedom of mobility

Not as much of an advantage as you might think. Medicine is still one area where language skills are essential, and qualifications often do not transfer. A British friend moved to work in France a few years back. His initially limited French wasn't too much of a hindrance in the IT industry where he worked, but his wife was a paediatric nurse. Not only would she have needed French qualifications, but to successfully deal with children you need to be comfortably fluent in their language. An ill child in hospital can't make allowances for misunderstandings in the way that a working adult in a professional situation could.

[Anonymous Coward]

Palmerston hospital here in the Northern Territory of Oz seems to be almost completely staffed by British medical personnel. One of the Dr's I was chatting to jokingly referred to the place as the NHS refugee zone.

[Anonymous Coward]

It used to be able to draw on the EU's liberal, if tight, supply of healthcare professionals. But not any more.

Most of the non-British healthcare workers in the UK actually came from outside the EU. The EU has huge problems recruiting medical staff as well. Getting an optician's appointment in France can take over a year, for example. The French government is even considering taking powers to compel new medical graduates to practice in certain regions (the "medical deserts"). Brexit has made little difference there.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's true but it doesn't change the fact that non‐EU health care workers will now be less interested in working in the UK, as this doesn't grant them access to work across the EU.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Getting an optician's appointment in France can take over a year, for example

I can attest to that. And most likely it won't be an optician but a specially trained technician.

> The French government is even considering taking powers to compel new medical graduates to practice in certain regions

I can attest to that too. Not a bad idea btw; I look forward to the TV series: "Doctor in Lozère"

[heyrick]

the "medical deserts"

My doctor explained this to me in one of his chattier moments.

It's a choice of good pay and good infrastructure in the cities, along with the ability to do lots of interesting things...

...or lousy pay in a place with pathetic infrastructure (like trains for schoolkids and maybe two buses a day; police and fire service from four towns away; broadband in the single digit megabits; hospitals thirty miles away; loads of towns throwing away place names they've had since Roman times so they can group together to be a larger blip on a map just so they can keep their fucking schools running [*]) and a lifetime spent dealing with the same agricultural ailments over and over and over.

* - If you've lived here for any length of time, you won't know where the hell anything is any more because the ancient names have been replaced by larger grouped places, Ombrée-d'Anjou, Loireauxence, and numerous other bullshit names because of gross failings of regional governance...

[J.G.Harston]

Welcome to England 1974. "Three Rivers"? WTH is that? "Rother"? Oh, that must be near Rotherham. Nope, Sussex.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup! Sounds like France alright. I'd still choose the countryside any day.

Also, the point about pooling resources, typically into communautés de communes, is totally true but also valid, as there are tangible cost savings (despite creating yet another layer of bureaucracy).

[Charlie Clark]

Most of the non-British healthcare workers in the UK actually came from outside the EU.

Post 2003? I don't have numbers to hand but I think that's debatable. In any case, it doesn't matter whether it was the most, it was certainly significant.

Knowing people in healthcare in both countries I'd still say that the French system is now better than the UK one, though that doesn't in any way mean it's great. The NHS has been dying a death by a thousand cuts for years and the pandemic and Brexit have just made this worse.

Similar things are happening all over Europe but they are worse in the UK.

[Anonymous Coward]

Post 2003? I don't have numbers to hand but I think that's debatable. In any case, it doesn't matter whether it was the most, it was certainly significant.

According to a parliamentary report from 2021 for NHS England, top nationalities are:

1.2m UK/British

32k Indian

25k Filipino

14k Irish

The biggest EU contingent is Polish, at 10.5k, so about 1% of the total. No other EU nationalities get over the 8k line. Total EU numbers are 5.4%.

For higher qualifications like doctors, 9% of doctors report an EU nationality, of which one-fifth are Irish.

The report concludes:

Nurses and health visitors are the only staff group to record a fall in the number of recorded EU nationals since 2016. 5.6% of nurses reported an EU nationality in March 2021, compared with 7.4% in June 2016. EU doctors fell to 8.7% of the total in March 2021 from 9.7% in June 2016, having risen as high as 9.9% in March 2017. The total number of staff in these categories has, however, risen since 2016.

The only EU nationality to record a substantial decrease in the recorded number of staff since June 2016 is Spanish, falling from 7,240 to 5,405 (-25%).

[Anonymous Coward]

Knowing people in healthcare in both countries I'd still say that the French system is now better than the UK one

Having experienced both, I'd say it's swings & roundabouts. Some things are better in France, others better in the UK.

The NHS has been dying a death by a thousand cuts for years and the pandemic and Brexit have just made this worse.

The pandemic certainly has, but if you look at the numbers instead of the remainder FUD you'll see that Brexit has made little difference.

Similar things are happening all over Europe but they are worse in the UK.

No, they are not worse in the UK, that's a grass-is-greener mindset. Go live elsewhere in the EU for a decade or so, as I have done, and you'll learn otherwise.

[Howard Sway]

We cannot allow this to continue

I'd be interested to see how she's going to not allow the EU to continue to make decisions about its own programmes.

It's all just big talk disguising empty threats. And there's a real price to be paid for it in actual exclusion.

[Vometia has insomnia. Again.]

meh

"Programs", article about UK & funding expressed in € and $ but not £. I'm aware of El Reg's widely disliked adoption of an American style-guide across the board but this sort of thing seems to be sheer bloody-mindedness for its own sake. ffs guys.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: meh

>expressed in € and $ but not £.

I suspect it's te difficulty in updating the falling value of Global Britain's Global currency

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: meh

Guess you missed the coverage of the Euro dropping below parity with the US dollar last month, then.

(GBP currently higher against Euro and Yen than this time last year)

[Strahd Ivarius]

Re: meh

Sam thing for the Russian Rubble, so what?

[Big_Boomer]

Leaver whining!

I am sick to the back teeth of this incessant Leave voter whining about "the EU did this" or "the EU said that". The reality is that the UK voted to leave the EU and no longer has a say in how it is run. Suck it up buttercup!

Contrary to popular Leave voter belief, the EU does not and never did "need" the UK. In fact we were a difficult, obstructive thorn in their side for 40-odd years and many EU citizens are glad we have gone and really don't miss our money if it means they don't have to put up with the likes of Forage. Many UK businesses that previously supplied businesses and end users in the EU have already been replaced with other suppliers from within the EU simply because they are cheaper and less hassle due to less paperwork. It is nothing to do with the EU causing these changes, it's simple economics. These changes were utterly inevitable when the UK left the EU and are a direct consequence of the Leave vote, and they WILL get worse because we are still in the process of leaving and will be until 2025. Many Leavers nicknamed them "Project Fear" and are now whining even more as they all come about one by one. Being shut out of the science club is just one more turd on the Brexit sh!tpile.

If the Tory morons want the EU to negotiate, then they need to learn how to negotiate. Their current efforts are utter crap and doomed to failure. Unilateral declarations are on the level of a toddler throwing their toys out of the pram. In fact, if the Tory idiots had learned how to negotiate BEFORE we decided to have a Brexit vote then maybe it wouldn't even have happened as we could have partnered up with likeminded countries in the EU and forged an alliance against the Federalisation of the EU.

[Lars]

Re: Leaver whining!

@Big_Boomer

I was going to up vote you until you totally lost it at the end with "partnered up with likeminded countries in the EU", there was never any chance of that worth dreaming about. People are not that stupid.

[cyberdemon]

Re: Leaver whining!

I disagree. I think it would have been much more prudent to try to reform the EU from within, rather than just sabotage the whole project, breaking European unity so that only Putin and the Chinese Communist Party are the winners.

Better to be inside the tent, pissing out, than outside the tent, pissing in.

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: Leaver whining!

I think it would have been much more prudent to try to reform the EU from within

We spent 25 years trying to do that, but even with the help of allies it was a doomed task against the federalist mindset of members like France and Germany

rather than just sabotage the whole project, breaking European unity

But we're not a part of it now, any such sabotage and loss of unity is down to the other members now. The UK can't be responsible for the behaviour of Hungary. After all, we left, we surely can't expect to have any influence, isn't that what we're constantly being told? Cake & all that?

Better to be inside the tent, pissing out, than outside the tent, pissing in.

Better to leave the tent & piss in the latrine, surely?

[Joe W]

Re: Leaver whining!

Well, it had always been the plan to get a political union[*], the first agreemets drafted up by Germany and France had some ideas along those lines. There was opposition against the UK joining the EC over exactly that: the UK has always been against a political union (or so it was perceived), as far as I recall reading about the EU and its history. There are also currently unfortunately many parties (and thus leaders of countries) trying to explode the whole union, drifting more and more away from a common position (the one you referenced, also the country lead by the duck brothers, which makes me sad).

Anyway, I would have preferred the UK to use the (non binding...) referendum as a lever to reform the EU. I also felt that the UK was much closer to the German position in many cases. Ah well, no hjelp to cry over spilt melk.

[*] fat chance of that happening with the high number of member states

[Lars]

Re: Leaver whining!

Some Brits seem to have this fantastic illusion of being the great Reformers.

Please just look at your political system and an ailing industry and rotting infrastructure and food banks, Reformers.

Anybody here with any great specific British only example of this great reformation of the EU, anything else but efforts to get some more exceptions for Britain.

What great reforms did Cameron speak for when he met with the Commission before the referendum.

But one should of course remember how greatly Britain has tried to reform everything related to tax havens and dark money.

[Anonymous Coward]

With the benefit of experience, allow me to say…

> Better to be inside the tent, pissing out, than outside the tent, pissing in.

…depends on which way the wind is blowing.

[Strahd Ivarius]

Re: Leaver whining!

breaking European unity so that only Putin and the Chinese Communist Party are the winners

So after the 5 from Cambridge, we have the untold numbers from Eton+Oxford?

[fajensen]

Re: Leaver whining!

I disagree. I think it would have been much more prudent to try to reform the EU from within

This is not possible when the UK and pretty much the rest of the EU disagrees on what the EU should become.

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: Leaver whining!

The reality is that the UK voted to leave the EU and no longer has a say in how it is run.

No, the reality is that the UK left the EU under the terms of an agreement negotiated between the two, and it has a perfect right to expect the EU to respect that agreement. It should not have to put up with the EU dragging its feet in one area as a way to apply pressure in another.

[Richard 12]

Re: Leaver whining!

You only have the right to expect the other parties to respect an agreement if you respect it yourself.

Announcing to the world that you want to tear it up before the ink is dry tends to cause ... issues.

[heyrick]

Re: Leaver whining!

"have already been replaced with other suppliers from within the EU simply because they are cheaper and less hassle due to less paperwork"

The company I work for used to get a lot of stuff imported from the UK. Huge bags proudly saying "BRITISH SUGAR" and a flag logo, for example.

Interestingly, what put an end to this wasn't Brexit itself, it was the psychodrama in the run up to the withdrawal agreement when the tossers in Westminster were talking about crashing out as if that would somehow be a workable idea.

It dawned on our stock management people that this....would create a massive problem, especially for a JIT system.

And anything supplied from the UK was quickly replaced by products from suppliers within the EU.

More recently, after the withdrawal, we've massively cut back on supplying our products into the UK. The customs process itself isn't a big deal (we supply outside the EU, so it's "just another country"), it's more the inconsistent application of rules, the illogical delays in transportation (very important for perishable products) and, sadly, I've even heard reports of some shocking amounts of xenophobic comments from people in the UK who seem to think acting unprofessionally is cool. Like, you do not, in a phone conversation, refer to your supplier as "fucking frog scum", particularly when said supplier is talking to you in English...

So, there are numerous reasons, but it all amounts to the same thing - Britain shooting itself in the foot, and now screaming because mummy hasn't come along to apply a bandage.

[martinusher]

Bluster and Blather is not a substitute for action

I hear a lot of people these days blathering on about agreements as if they're binding contracts. They forget that a contract is a peer to peer agreement that implies mutual obligation whereas an agreement is really just a statement of intent -- we'd like to explore opportunities to make contracts for our mutual benefit but we're not obligated to do so. (....just because the weaker party feels that it needs to gain some benefit from a contract doesn't obligate another party to enter into a contract just to make them happy.....that's playground thinking)

The UK is currently in the same state of denial over its new Prime Minister that it was over Brexit. As with Brexit ignoring the reality won't make it go away -- you're going to end up with someone as PM, that someone is likely to be Liz Truss and you're all going to cop it as a result (because she's given every sign of being both doctrinaire and clueless.......a lethal combination). So expect the noise level to rise but nothing will get done -- the UK doesn't have a (functioning) government any more, its achieved full "Banana Republic" status.

[Anonymous Coward]

Liz Truss - the Groucho Marx of Westminster

You're wrong about Liz Truss. Though I agree she's going to carry the can for Boris's many lies and fuckups - and whatever ones she makes all by herself.

Truss is not doctrinaire - the very opposite in fact. She's a vain, shameless opportunist who will happily reverse any principles (assuming she has any) and say/do anything that she hopes will advance or protect her political career. She voted Remain. But when Clown Boris took over, she kissed his arse, kept her job and became a rabid Brexiteer.

As Groucho Marx said, these are my principles. If you don't like them I have others. At least Groucho told great jokes. Unlike Liz Truss who is a total joke.

It's horrifying to think someone this awful could well be the next prime minister:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srHNcNoEJ9g

[Loyal Commenter]

Re: Liz Truss - the Groucho Marx of Westminster

It's horrifying to think someone this awful could well be the next prime minister

It's horrifying to know that someone this awful will be the next prime minister. The other candidate is just as horrific, just in slightly different ways. It's like being asked to choose between eating a bowl of shit and a bowl of red-hot gravel. Except, of course, that the choice isn't yours, it's someone else's racist granny's.

[TimMaher]

Re: Banana Republic

That is what Brexit means... “Banana Republic Exit”.

We’ll get our coat.

Sigh.

[Plest]

Hmmmm

It's almost as if El Reg had a tiny inkling a nice juicy Brexit story would get a good old bunfight going between the nerd clans!

Let me get a good seat and big old tub of popcorn...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmmmm

Where's the Martian, though?

[Loyal Commenter]

Re: Hmmmm

He makes far too much sense to get involved in a theological discussion.

[J.G.Harston]

Re: Hmmmm

That would be an ecumenical matter.

[Lordrobot]

UK is always willing to slap on the feed bag... as long as its free

BREXIT in its more simplistic form is the much-vaunted notion of DECOUPLING... Globalism Bad... Decoupling wonderful. Adam Smith Bad ... Karl Marx wonderful.

Decoupling is grand as long as you are the engine and not the bloody kaboose.

Thank God Liz Truss is riding atop of this roaring volcano.... British Workers need more graft...

[Anonymous Coward]

Shock Horror - EU funding not going to a country that left the EU

Sorry but what?

Which part of "EU grant" is so difficult to understand?

[Falmari]

Re: Shock Horror - EU funding not going to a country that left the EU

@AC "Which part of "EU grant" is so difficult to understand?"

Neither the UK or EU have any difficulty understanding 'EU grant'. That's why the 'Trade and Cooperation Agreement between UK and EU' states that any EU programme or activity the UK participates in, the UK will have to pay their share of the funding.

So no shock, no horror that EU funding is not going to a country that left the EU.

[Anonymous Coward]

Big girl’s blouse

Some big boys came along and stole our funding!!

[scubaal]

Ha ha ha ha ha.

So legislating to rip up an agreement you signed causes the other party to be 'less than urgent' in delivering things you want.

Who would have thought it?

I absolutlely love the EU resaponse:

"The Commission takes note of the UK's request for consultation and will follow up on this in line with the applicable rules, as set out in the TCA"

So we are going to follow the rules.....and there is no timetable in the rules....and there is nothing you can do about it.....brilliant......

[Jugularveins]

No ... sure it is true that the UK as such was a net contributor. I don't think anyone capable of reading statistics will refute that.

Unfortunately for large swaths of the land, that flow back of EU funds was often tied to the idea to level up disenfranchised, rural places.

Once the Brexit was done that stopped and the funds could/would be used for other things, like funding the NHS :)

[AndyMulhearn]

I will admit to combining a facepalm with an eye roll at the news the residents of Cornwall, a majority of whom seem to have voted to Brexit, were asking if they would still get their EU funding...

[Loyal Commenter]

There is also the fact of economies of scale. For instance, with critical regulatory and safety agencies like EURATOM, paying in a fraction of the cost was always going to cost less than paying for an entire replacement regulatory agency (which will end up having to follow the same rules anyway). This is still true even if we were paying disproportionately more than some other countries (i.e. more than 1/28th of the cost).

The bit that the brexiters miss is that this money wasn't just "given to" the EU, it was used to pay for things, some of which we may no longer need, but most of which we do, and which we now have to pay for in their entirety ourselves.

The subtlety of such argument, however, is lost on people who rant about "getting are cuntry back".

[fajensen]

For instance, with critical regulatory and safety agencies like EURATOM,

There is a competive advantage in writing the rules.

The UK specialists were very good at that and well respected for their work too. For example, most of REACH and the rules on recycleable plastics were written by the UK and I know people who work with these things that are not enthusiastic about Germany and France taking over.

[boblongii]

Liz Truss will Save us All

Because what the situation needs is the single dumbest person in a cabinet of idiots to step in and "help"

Roll on the next election.

[fajensen]

Re: Liz Truss will Save us All

Yeah, but, Labour's Braniac will find a clever way to lose to the Crazy Cat Lady!

[Anonymous Coward]

A holding pattern suggests that salaries are being paid

People have moved to Europe. Funding applications are bouncing. New PhD places have been cancelled. Science crosses borders but not being in the same funding pot makes everything extraordinarily hard.

The money disappeared, the government are only going to "fill in" once a decision on Horizon is made but the money has already gone. The hole has been there for months. People have already gone.

Anon cos I'm affected in part.

[Anonymous Coward]

EU != Europe and Europe != EU

"People have moved to Europe."

Eh? Despite Brexit, the UK is still part of the continent called Europe, It's no longer part of the EU, which is a very different thing from Europe.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: EU != Europe and Europe != EU

Apologies - I thought in the context it would be easily understood. To be more specific:

"People have moved back into the EU so that their funding can continue."