God makes you stupid, researchers claim A psychology researcher has controversially claimed that stupidity is causally linked to how likely people are to believe in God. University of Ulster professor Richard Lynn will draw the conclusion in new research due to be published in the journal Intelligence, the Times Higher Education Supplement reports. Lynn and his two …
Even if you don't believe in the term Atheist, he didn't believe in god in the traditional* sense, but he did understand it.
He said:
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."
Smart bloke.
*Jewish, Islamic or Christian (Abrahamic, biblical god)
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You beat me to it. Einstein was definitely not a theist.
"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being." - AE
...wouldn't it make more sense that it's a greater level of education that results in one being less likely to be religious, rather than in higher IQ? And in this case I think it would be education in the sciences, the scientific method, critical thinking. I'm an atheist, but if I was never educated at all, it seems quite possible that I wouldn't be. That would have nothing to do with IQ, just education.
Most athiests have their thinking done for them by the likes of Richard Dawkins, Steve Jones, Sam Harris, Philip Pullman and Christopher Hitchens. (The list goes on.) The sad fact is that none of them have proved their point at all, but after all, how could they?
The atheist position is quite simple; you live, you die, you decompose, the end. They claim that they "KNOW THIS FOR A FACT." They build easily knock-down able straw man arguments and think that they are clever. They use arguments against theories that have been rejected by creationists and have the gall to claim that creationists are stupid for believing them.
But why do atheists persist in knocking down the Christians? The answer is in the bible. Ephesians 6:12 states “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
If God did not exist, then neither would the principalities, powers, or the rulers of the darkness of this world. We wouldn’t even be having this discussion; we would all be atheists, with our feet up, enjoying the sunshine. Instead, we have the New Atheist spitting venom at believers all over the world, and state sponsored persecution in most countries, from mild ridicule, as this article is so blatantly demonstrates, to torture.
If the persecution of Christians throughout the world was to stop over night, in all forms, I may well even question my own faith, for Ephesians 6:12 would then all of a sudden, be wrong.
It is debates like this that offer further proof to me that God does indeed exist, and will one day judge this unbelieving world.
I know God doesn't exist. May he strike me down if I'm wrong. He did it before. Quite often, if you believe the Old Testament. I wank too. So I should be well overdue a smiting...
Come on, people, the Reg headline was trolling and you've swallowed it.
Think about it. The religious texts are confusing and contradcitory within themselves. When you read several texts, you read some similar stories but all saying THEY are the right one.
If you're smart, you want to find things out.
So you're more likely to see how these religious texts are NOT the word of God. Then you stop believing in THAT text.
Now you may turn to something else, but you may not.
And that, my friends, is how there can be a difference.
Not because the belief in God makes you stupid, or that you must be stupid to believe in god. However, you can't be intelligent and not notice how the TEXTS are silly.
OK, once upon a time everyone had multiple gods, fine, your brain needs something , fine.
OK, this Egyptian king, Aken Aten, tutenkhamun's dad built a new city and decreed that there was only one god.,...... the sun god. At this time, this person named Moses took the israeli peoples away and decreed 'one god' ring a bell Eh? OK this so called one god is the egyptian god. think about it.
and I would like to raise one point in regard to "Lynn pointed out that most children do believe in God". Presumably this is "children how have grown up within a religious social context": I grew up in a completely non-religious family, and had absolutely no conception of what God was supposed to be until I reached school age, which lead to some very confusing conversations.
None of my subsequent readings and investigations have caused me to believe in God (although, of course, seeing as God's existence can never be disproved, I find myself having to assume the uncomfortable, if scientifically robust, position of agnosticism. Damn those black swans, damn them to hell).
I don't believe in aliens neither.
Dave -
I was really rooting for you mate - all that churchgoing hasn't gone unnoticed and I'm very grateful etc.
But your argument fell apart. You can't have a go at atheists for getting all their arguments out of a book and then defend yourself by quoting the Bible...
Tut tut. Anyway, see you next Sunday.
I have a simple solution for bridging the divide between believers and non believers of God. It really is quite simple.
When people ask me if I believe in God I respond:
"My experience of God is not based on faith or belief"
How can that be? Simple. "God is, what is".
God didn't make this world. God *is* this world. Where by "world" I mean all that is.
Does God love you? Just as much as everyone loves you. Does God hate you? Just as much as everyone hates you? Is God neutral? Yes! In fact God is mostly neutral. In fact the amount of love and hate is 1 part in 10 to the 70th. The rest is neutral.
So don't lie about God. He/She/It never spoke to you, except with the blue of the sky, the wind on your face, the babbling brook, the trees and grass, the animals in the daily activity.
God is what is.
Atheists = Smart
Atheists reject God
Christians = Stupid
Christians accept God
[Some] Atheists say that the Big Bang created the universe out of two forms of matter that somehow existed in nothingness.
Christians say God created the universe from nothingness.
[Some] Atheists say that Evolution somehow formed from the somehow Big Bang and somehow created sentient life.
Christians say God created sentient life.
Have you Atheists *seriously* considered those theories beyond "Well it's not God, therefore it works"?
If intelligence is measured ,then Belief or Faith should be measured too .Or is it enough being a believer or having Faith in some sort of Deity enough to be categorized as being less intelligent
And what about agnostics where do they fit in.
Being religious has nothing to do with intelligence ,as intelligence has nothing to with ethics . You can not add up two different things if you do not define either of them .
if I had never met Don Knuth. His is smarter and nicer than I will ever be, and is devout where I am an atheist.
I understand that it is foolish to argue from such a small sample size, but it is also foolish to believe that statistics can be applied to individuals. I am taller than the average adult Chinese male, but Yao Ming is a bit taller yet. :-)
I characterise the condescention as "hate filled" because of the clear venow and anger with which it is deliverd. If all you can do is pick fault in sermatics, the please don't say anything.
My point was that the athists seem to have nothing for contempt for the religious.Perhaps the phraise I should have used was ignorant, or ill infomed, or Dogmatic. The very things they trash religion for.
An atheist is someone who believes/has faith that there is no god.
An agnostic is someone who thinks religion is full of shit.
The fellow moaning at people calling themselves agnostics when his definition of agnosticism differs from theres is probably an ignostic. He wants a definition of what God is before starting to think about whether it exists.
What I think is ironic is that the Bible already said as much thousands of years ago -- "science" is just now figuring it out:
1 Corinthians 1:20-31
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."
-Benjamin
You can understand them telling kids to believe in god, fairies and so on, because it's a lot easier than telling them that we don't know the original of the universe, life and everything.
Admitting we just don't know, and never will, is not that positive, so:
The Fairies made us all! And designed the slime on every vile slug.
There! Wasn't that easy.
Or is the meaning of life = 42 ??
Atheist, Denton, Manchester
I remember reading about an article in the Skeptical Inquirer about a study of the correlation between intelligence and education and belief in ghosts, UFOs, and things like that. Surprisingly, they found that as intelligence went up, belief in those things went up too, at first, although as intelligence increased further, belief in ghosts and UFOs went down.
It turned out that traditional religious belief went away from the beginning as intelligence went up, but it got replaced by belief in astrology, tarot cards or whatever first, and intelligence had to go up even further before people accepted the word of science on these things.
And since none can prove God isn't an onion, nor can prove it's an orange, then it has to be an onion.
Well, now less seriously : if a believer dies and there's nothing after, he won't even notice he was wrong; while if a non-believer dies and then start his other life, he'll (or she'll, let's not be sexist!) notice he was wrong.
So, believers are people who refuse to take the risk to notice they were wrong, even if they may well be !
The very fact that religious people believe that a character in the bible known as Jonah actually lived inside a fishes stomach for 3 days shows how much common sense they actually have. Also religious people dont admit that in dueteronomy it says every women who isnt a virgin when they get married has to be put to death! According to the bible also it says god is going to send everyone to hell nomatter what you have done...so whats the point in going to church to worship this guy anyway?
The article that triggered all these comments isn't as interesting (in a really grim sort of a way) as the comments themselves. The article itself isn't really worth much: it's just another anti-religionist having a pop at people who don't conform to the beliefs (or lack thereof) that he stipulates.
But the comments... I think it's the total predictability of it that I find most depressing. There're some reasonable people in here who've spoken real wisdom, so I'm not slating *everyone* here. But mention 'religion' anywhere where there's a have-your-say facility, and the same argument will fire up, every single time, and it will eventually peter out having achieved precisely diddly squat. It always achieves diddly squat. But we keep on having it all the same. Why? The sole purpose of these 'debates' (and I'm being charitable there, because that implies a level most of them never reach) is for Group A to indulge their desire to insult and mock Group B, who don't believe what Group A think they should believe.
It's so *monotonous*. Every argument has been tried and retried over and over and over again - there are whole websites devoted to nothing other than the endless repetition of pointless nitpicking, each side trying to find a way to prove the other wrong; each side consistently failing to do so.
Truth is, yeah, you can pick holes in any religious belief if you want to. Doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the believer, though, so the only point in doing it really is self-indulgence. Oh, I know the arguments of the antis: they attack religion in some supposed retaliation for the evils of religion, because Religion Causes All The Wars, and Religious People Kill In The Name Of God, and all that guff. Well, yeah, as long as you're looking for the simplest and most convenient explanation, that's true enough to do the job. It gives you something easy to blame, rather than making you face up to the fact that humans kill each other because too many of them are still vicious and amoral little bastards, prone to anger and hatred and all too keen to indulge both. There's always something *behind* the religion, if you're willing to look for it, but the religion bit's a great scapegoat because it makes Them fundamentally different from Us, and we don't like to think we have things in common with our enemies.
By the way, while we're on the subject, contrary to popular atheistic mockery, religion isn't always about easing the fear of death. I'm religious, and I firmly believe that I haven't got the first clue what happens after death, if anything (without knowing precisely what time or space or consciousness actually *are*, as far as I'm concerned the 'oblivion' hypothesis is just as much an assumption as any other, but I don't assume there's an afterlife either).
When push comes to shove, no-one actually knows shit about where we are, who we are, what the point of life might be, or what the universe, or life, or consciousness, actually is. So if someone tells me that they've got reason to believe in some divine authority guiding their lives, well, that's no skin off my nose. Maybe they've got a reason to believe that. Maybe they've seen something I haven't. We've all got to find our own meaning in life. Too many people seem to think they've got the answer sheet for that question and that they're entitled to mark other people's work.
I don't disbelieve the notion of a supreme being, given how hard it is to prove a negative, but until it provides me with proof of its existence I'll carry on assuming it's not there due to lack of evidence.
I'll refer everyone to Heinlein's "Job - A Comedy of Justice" for a suggestion as to what it's really like Up There.
So one is more intelligent if they believe a singularity with less intelligence than a dog (i.e, no intelligence) came up with infinitely better and infinitely more designs than NASA and supercomputers who are very intelligent.
Perhaps those who profess to be the intelligent of the world are really fools because they can't see the obvious.
That research would also tend to show that the decline of pirates is also due to high IQs, and that not excess CO2 emission, but high-IQ is actually the cause of global warming!
In the name of the Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Tooth Fairy and the Great Green Arkleseizure, Amen!
Anyway, everyone knows they are all just engrams planted by Xenu! Hail Xenu!
Mine's the Pope Hat with the pentagrams and goat-horns, heathen infidel!
..the spelling in most of the comments is bloody atrocious. Freedom to question (i.e., without being burnt as a heretic) is surely a factor? Admittedly, increased intelligence might have been the cause of the releasing of constrictions and inquisitions.
But then we all know religion is a power-tool, so perhaps intelligent people just don't want to be manipulated so they do what you can when given new inquisitive freedoms and destroyed the control mechanism (albeit, personally).
If you think "God" put fossils in the ground to "make us question" then, I'm afraid, you are massively deluded. Occam's razor.
I think there is a creator, or perhaps to put it better, intelligence beyond this universe. However, I don't think that if there's a god, that he or it takes an active hand. More like setting a program or simulation up to run, kicking it off, and letting it do what it may. Oddly enough, I do believe in life after death and reincarnation. "Do it over and over until you get it right, and then you can move on" makes a lot of sense to me, and I think there is ample, if circumstantial evidence to support this. I hope that if I'm wrong, that my rants when driving or dealing with a particularly recalcitrant piece of equipment haven't consigned me to a rather hot, miserable realm, even worse than my normal life. Of course, if there's no god or purpose, perhaps I should just kill my amply deserving neighbors.
Currently if I see a Christian symbol or 'Jesus fish' on a business, I'll do my best to avoid it, as I always expect them to be the most swindling, self-serving, unctuous wastes of DNA around.
I've always thought of myself as at least somewhat moral, and perhaps the fact that most of us that DON'T necessarily believe in god still manage to be somewhat more honorable people overall (in my experience) than the religious folks, makes us actually more "godly", since we're really doing our best from a true kind of faith, and not from fear of being banned from the cosmic field trip, like so many kiss-ass fools trying to wow the vice president to get a promotion.
Obviously our academic leaders need a higher IQ to get the job.
If leaders in all walks of life had to pass an IQ test to get the job, we would have more free thinkers being educated and employed in decision making. This in turn would lead to more free thinking, higher IQs and less reliance on using God as an excuse for policies.
The average IQ voters would be better off, as their representatives would only be able to come from a pool of intelligent persons, not those that put on a popular act like today's reps.
The average IQ consumer would be better off, as business leaders would have to compete more intelligently as their competition would be more intelligent, which would result in better products and services.
The average IQ religious follower would be better off, as leaders would have to make life on earth better for their believers.
All in all, even if high IQ persons did not believe in God or even have to say they did like our secular leader have to in today's world, life for the rest of us would be markedly better as a larger pool of higher IQs would increase the average to the point where all forms of advertising and propaganda would have to appeal more to a person's intellect and less to their emotion.
First that academics have higher IQs than other people - IQ tests are custom-fitted to academics by academics, therefore academics perform well. It's comparable to defining your superiority to a person for whom English is a second language in terms of your (English) language skills. Academics fail to impress me as superior in any respect in comparison to any other group.
Second that you must be stupid to believe in God. Many of the greatest minds in history professed belief in God and sought wisdom in the Bible and other religious writings. Indeed, there has never been a time when so many have possessed rudimentary literary skills yet wasted them on such trivial and purposeless pursuits. We have become wise in our own eyes, but have become fools in truth.
Why is it the god botherers keep putting up someone for the "hey, look, I'm being reasonable here" spiel who then fuck it up by saying "and all atheists are hateful meanies" in there?
There are people who HATE that people don't believe what they do. They are the god-botherers. No atheist HATES the god botherers because of what THEY believe in but they do hate what they try to make everyone else believe. The god-botherers have some people who have a MASSIVE amount of vitriol for people who don't believe in god.
They keep trying to point out how silly the deep science is.
So? We know. At the moment, things like The Big Bang is a tentative theory. It does explain things but we don't know yet whether it's true.
When we point out how silly the bible (or torah/whatever) is, you defend it with "yeah, it's still ESSENTIALLY true".
See the difference? Science allows it can be wrong. Religion doesn't.
Skipping over to the NEW TESTAMENT, where JESUS HIMSELF is changing the way things are played...
* Saved people (i.e. All people that have accepted Jesus into their hearts) go to Heaven, despite what they have done.
** If you read things like Deuteronomy, then you've probably read the New Testament where Jesus rescues to prostitute and totally outsmarts the Pharisees and Sadducees.
* I don't see what's so hard to believe about being inside a whale for three days. It would be completely possible if it didn't swallow you either.
"According to the bible also it says god is going to send everyone to hell nomatter what you have done"
I'm not sending everyone Kenneth, but I'm definitely sending you. You are going to spend eternity being tortured with a giant apostrophe, as a punishment for not using them in your posts.
"OK, this Egyptian king, Aken Aten, tutenkhamun's dad built a new city and decreed that there was only one god.,...... the sun god." .... By Michael Carter Posted Thursday 12th June 2008 19:34 GMT
Take away the Sun and all Life dies, Frozen in Darkness at Absolute Zero in an Instant? No wonder they worshipped its Life Giving Power. And Sharing such Thoughts in IT can easily alter the Balance of Power to IT Controllers ....... and Virtual Great Games Players on ARGonautical Quests/ESPecial Operations.
"It always achieves diddly squat. But we keep on having it all the same. Why? The sole purpose of these 'debates' (and I'm being charitable there, because that implies a level most of them never reach) is for Group A to indulge their desire to insult and mock Group B, who don't believe what Group A think they should believe." ... By Taskis Posted Friday 13th June 2008 01:06 GMT
And Boldly going in Group C, Taskis, would presumably have one discussing something QuITe Different, if one dismisses A and B Arguments and Contrary Positions as Simply Complex Red Herrings which serve the Past Order of things rather than Servering to Future Needs with New Original Feeds/NeuReal Novel Source.
Nah, you really aren't looking hard enough are you... (The very same evidence the non-theistic scientists use to posit God's non-existence, the theist uses to posit the opposite. There's plenty of evidence - the difference is in how we choose to interpret it.)
Bravo Taskis. (Well for paragraphs 1 to 5 anyway.)
So a hefty chunk of the comments above can be summarised as: "I am intelligent. You don't believe what I believe therefore you are stupid and [insert insult of choice here]." Such "logic" speaks for itself, doesn't it?
It's nice to see all the old favourites being trotted out here anyway, such as:
"The bible is full of contradictions. (It must be, I heard it somewhere. Haven't really read it myself though because it is obviously bunkum. At least that what they told me in [school/college/the pub])."
"Religion is all about control." (Ah, so atheistic communism is about what, exactly? And remind me what Hitler, Stalin and all the other Nietzsche disciples were up to?)
"Religion is responsible for all evils." (See previous paragraph.)
"Science has proven God doesn't exist and the sooner the theists get this into their thick skulls, the better it'll be for everyone." (An amusingly faith-based statement of belief.)
"Look at George Bush. He believes in God and he is obviously stupid." (*cough* One of the most powerful men in the world? Is that jealousy I detect?)
Disappointingly I haven't spotted the "If there's a God, why all the suffering" classic yet, but give it time.
The only suprising thing is that no one seems to have brought homosexuality or abortion into the debate yet. ;-)
I.T. angle? Well Reg, this gets the page hits up, doesn't it!
"If God did not exist, then neither would the principalities, powers, or the rulers of the darkness of this world."
So say you. I say God isn't required. If God made us, what made God. How come *It* was first? Maybe the Bible just doesn't mention it.
The things that drive peoples' faith/belief in God are so riddled with inconsistencies that get handwaved away, that it is non-rational to believe.
There are gaping holes in the understanding that Science provides, but they're not just signed off as "unknowable". And anyway, Science doesn't claim anything about God, since, as has been said, it's a more philosphical subject than physical, but the philopsophy of Science can be applied.
I've stayed off posting and just sat and read the debate and found I agree with Taskis...I'm an agnostic but, as long as no religous person attempts to shove their beliefs down my throat (I have an issue with those on the street who constantly tell me I'm going to Hell and so forth, then try to make me believe I am wrong in my own belief)..I have my own personal belief and do not deny the existance of some Intelligence higher than our own who may or may not have had a hand in creating lots of things; I cannot accept pure randomicity of creation, too many things are too perfectly conceived. Therefore everyone else is entitled to their own beliefs, whether they square with mine or not. It is arrogance in the extreme to be of the mindset that you are unquestionably right on such weighty topics as the purpose and meaning of life, the Infinate and the universe.
I do not despise religion per se, I do dispise arrogance though
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