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back to article UK may already be at war with Russia, ex-MI5 head suggests

The former head of MI5 says hostile cyberattacks and intelligence operations directed by The Kremlin indicate the UK might already be at war with Russia. Baroness Manningham-Buller, who served as Director General of the intelligence agency from 2002 to 2007 and was the second woman to fill the role, made the claim on Lord …

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Not to mention political interventions

        Everbody knows Russia is behind everything bad! The BBC said so. LOL

        It would be very interesting to trace all politician's fundings. I think it would be an eye opener. Because we, the democratic West, don't do such terrible things. The whole thing is corrupt and it attracts corrupt people. How the hell it can be fixed, I don't know? Maybe MPs should be chosen like jurys?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Not to mention political interventions

      And where the funding for GBNews originates before reaching those investment funds in the Emirates.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Not to mention political interventions

      Are you a bot or do you believe all the left wing BS fed to you? Reform are not the root cause. They are no better nor worse than the others. It's all just talk until they follow through.

  1. STOP_FORTH Silver badge
    Pirate

    Spy vs. Spy

    If you have seen the documentary series called "Slow Horses", you'd realise that MI5 is at war with itself.

    1. Ken G Silver badge
      1. STOP_FORTH Silver badge

        Re: Spy vs. Spy

        Harsh but fair assessment.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Spy vs. Spy

          In my workplace too.

  2. Like a badger Silver badge

    Surely a war requires two countries conducting hostile actions?

    As opposed to one conducting hostile actions, whilst the other just sits there and takes a kicking.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    More pointless fearmongering

    The Europeans are desperate to drag the US into direct confrontation with Russia, that's what all this noise is ultimately about. Note, I said the US. The rest of NATO ain't worth a hill of beans in terms of seriously challenging Russia. Fortunately, for those of us that aren't relishing the prospect of WW3, it looks like Trump is washing his hands of the conflict.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: More pointless fearmongering

      "The Europeans are desperate to drag the US into direct confrontation with Russia"

      Right people, wrong order. If I remember the comment went something along the lines of 'F**k the EU'. The US will sell us the bombs and we get to drop them on Russia.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: More pointless fearmongering

        Yes, that was Nuland, the arch Neocon dutifully following the Brzezinski plan to break Russia apart.

    2. DS999 Silver badge

      Russia is the one responsible

      They're the ones flying drones over Poland and other NATO countries. Funny how that started up in the last couple months when Ukraine's homegrown drones have been scoring major victories destroying Russia's oil infrastructure leading to gas shortages all over Russia. Putin is desperate, he knows that the status quo is no longer sustainable, Ukraine is only going to press this advantage and no amount of bombing Ukrainian civilians is going to stop it.

      Heck even Trump appears to be conceding this, with his recent comments on Ukraine maybe getting back all the territory they lost. Quite a change from his claims that Ukraine "didn't have the cards" six months ago lol

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Russia is the one responsible

        Heck even Trump appears to be conceding this, with his recent comments on Ukraine maybe getting back all the territory they lost. Quite a change from his claims that Ukraine "didn't have the cards" six months ago lol

        Reading comprehension much? Trump said he's happy to sell weapons to the Europeans who will then pass them on to the Ukrainians. Only problem with that plan is that Europe is fcuking broke!

        Trump is washing his hands of this mess. Just you watch. ;)

        1. DS999 Silver badge

          Re: Russia is the one responsible

          Ukraine may be close to reaching a point where they don't need any outside weapons other than missile defense. They built their homegrown drone industry specifically to have zero parts or service dependency on the US, so even if Trump does "wash his hands" of it Ukraine is going to keep making Putin's life more miserable by the day. Just YOU watch.

          The only reason Trump cares one way or another is because he's desperate for a Nobel peace prize because his ego can't handle that there's something he wants that he will never have. So he tries to insert himself into every conflict trying to claim he made "peace" like the toddler desperate for his father's attention and approval he still is mentally and emotionally.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Russia is the one responsible

          He's a chicken.

        3. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: Russia is the one responsible

          Reading comprehension much? Trump said he's happy to sell weapons to the Europeans who will then pass them on to the Ukrainians. Only problem with that plan is that Europe is fcuking broke!

          Kind of. Trump said he'll flog weapons to NATO to give to Ukraine because NATO is absolutely not at war with Russia. But NATO doesn't buy weapons, or have the money to do so. So NATO members buy those, and <drumroll> the US is a NATO member. So that may be a bit of spin for US domestic consumption, or the US is going to stop fulfilling it's obligations as a NATO member and contributing to continuing the conflict the US started, promoted and escalated.

          Trump is washing his hands of this mess. Just you watch. ;)

          Yep. He knows the way the wind is blowing and that Ukraine is losing, so doesn't want to be blamed for another defeat. So he's dumping the problem onto the EU and potentially escalating again, if the US supplies Ukraine with Tomahawks. And Russia's pretty much said several times that if Russia is hit with US (or German) long-range missiles, US targets will be hit in response.

          1. LogicGate Silver badge

            Re: Russia is the one responsible

            "He knows the way the wind is blowing and that Ukraine is losing"

            Russian talking point. Ukraine is loosing so much that what is left of the russian fleet is in hiding and 30% of Russian refinging capacity is offline.

            "And Russia's pretty much said several times that if Russia is hit with US (or German) long-range missiles, US targets will be hit in response."

            Russia is threatening with nukes every day ending with a Y.

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Russia is the one responsible

              Russian talking point. Ukraine is loosing so much that what is left of the russian fleet is in hiding and 30% of Russian refinging capacity is offline.

              Yes, ukraine is losing and what's left of the Russian fleet is sitting in port and loosing off missiles at ukrainian targets. And even if 30% of Russian refining capacity is offline, it still has plenty of capacity left, and again can import refined products if it needs to.

              Russia is threatening with nukes every day ending with a Y.

              Yep. It announces 'red lines', we cross them, Russia escalates. Trouble is we're getting to the point where we're running out of red lines to cross and might find out that Russia wasn't bluffing. Then we all die. Zelensky's been ranting about using Tomahawks for decapitation strikes on Russia's leadership. If it does that and fails, which is possible or probable given Tomahawks are pretty ancient & slow cruise missiles, and the closest analog, ukraine's Neptune gets shot down, then Russia might return the favor and decapitate Zelensky. Or it succeeds, they manage to kill Putin and he's replaced by.. Who? Given Putin is one of the more moderate Russian politicians and his replacement (or the Russian people) would probably demand vengeance. That might mean Kiev gets glassed, or just WW3 and most of us die.

              And all because of this-

              https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgjk8z47gko

              Since the creation of a new law last year, more than 10,000 prisoners have joined the Ukrainian military, including murderers... "I've committed many evil deeds for this country," says Andrii. "There is a price to pay for everything. I'll just go back to the job I'm good at: fighting."

              "I have skills too," chuckles Oleksii. "I know how to kill. Only here I won't be convicted for it."

              Well, he might be, as happened after WW2 and members of the original Dirlwanger Brigade were convicted and sometimes executed for war crimes. Strange the way ukraine is so intent on copying the worst of WW2's history.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Russia is the one responsible

              It's not that simple. There is a long history behind this conflict and the West is not so clean.

        4. Casca Silver badge

          Re: Russia is the one responsible

          Moronic AC much?

      2. bravo6

        Re: Russia is the one responsible

        You obviously get all your information from approved news sources.

        No mention of MI6 actively firing Storm Shadows into Russia, or planning and organising several direct attacks on the Kerch bridge and Sevastopol installations.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Russia is the one responsible

          @bravo6

          "No mention of MI6 actively firing Storm Shadows into Russia, or planning and organising several direct attacks on the Kerch bridge and Sevastopol installations."

          I am surprised and disappointed that I had to go so far down the comments page to see this. I am amused that 'we may already be at war' when we are taking action against Russia and also providing the long range NATO weaponry to strike into Russia. And of course the coalition of the unwilling are desperate to put boots on the ground, get someone killed and demand the US go to war.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Russia is the one responsible

            Have you been offered Russian residency to post your this tyoe of stuff? (On top of EU residency. Which country was that?)

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Russia is the one responsible

              Have you been offered Russian residency to post your this tyoe of stuff?

              Odessa actually. I think that well-known ukrainian, Mikheil Saakashvili left a few things that weren't nailed down. Any idea why he was made Odessa's governor? Payment for services rendered perhaps? He who controls one of Europe's most corrupt ports must have managed to make a few dollars out of that.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Russia is the one responsible

                Codejunky was the made governor of Odessa? Wow that is a bombshell!

                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  Re: Russia is the one responsible

                  Wow that is a bombshell!

                  Nah, that would be Germany invoking Article 4 over an attack on their energy infrastructure-

                  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwywdmz7xpgo

                  A Ukrainian national has been arrested by police in Poland on suspicion of involvement in a series of explosions that blew up the Nord Stream gas pipelines under the Baltic Sea.

                  The second ukrainian to have been arrested now. I thought Russia was supposed to be the threat to EU & NATO infrastructure?

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Russia is the one responsible

                    So it wasn't Russia?? It just all seemed so smart on the part of the Russians to cut off the gas supply to Germany, their biggest trading partner in the EU, causing the German govt to get off the fence and actively start supporting Ukraine. And how could the Russians have known that Germany would start buying LNG from the US?

                  2. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Russia is the one responsible

                    So obvioulsy wasn't Russia, if they had wanted to stop the flow they could simply turn off the tap!

        2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

          Re: Russia is the one responsible

          bravo6,

          As far as I'm aware, no Storm Shadows have been fired into Russia. Ukraine were not given permission to do so.

          Therefore all Storm Shadow / SCALP missiles that have been fired, have been fired inside Ukraine. Which is a restriction that has been placed on many donated weapons.

          I also don't think any have been fired at the Kerch Bridge. Although I could be wrong about that - I'm pretty sure some were used against the air defence batteries defending the bridge to make it an easier target for Ukrainian systems. This is likely because they're the wrong type of weapon for taking down a bridge. Bridges tend to be built very strong, so require a big bang to actually destroy. You can use a smaller warhead to damage the road or rail surface - but that can be easily repaired.

          Crimea is in Ukraine. I suspect that the logical outcome of any peace between Russia and Ukraine is going to be Ukraine either ceding it directly, or some sort of diplomatic fudge like a Hong Kong style lease agreeement (with an actual plan in place for what happens when it runs out). Even Belarus and China haven't recognised Russia's annexation of Crimea. Kyrgyzstan appears to be the only country in the region to have done so. Hence no Storm Shadows have been lobbed at Russia.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Russia is the one responsible

            "Crimea is in Ukraine"

            Gaza is in Israel.

            1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

              Re: Russia is the one responsible

              Gaza is in Israel.

              This is complicated. Israel's borders are disputed, some states and groups don't even accept Israel has the right to exist at all. Including Hamas. Which is one of the reasons Isreal are again occupying Gaza - and that there's been this recent bloodbath. That and some very poor decisions from Israel's current terrible government.

              Crimea is simple. Ukraine seceded from the Soviet Union, in an agreed process. All provinces of Ukraine voted to leave in an agreed referendum, including Crimea. Admittedly Crimea by 50-something percent, when even the Donbas provinces were around 70%. The Russian Federation ten signed the Budapest Memorandum guaranteeing that it was happy with this, that it agreed that Crimea was in Ukraine and that it would never attempt to destroy Ukraine's territorial integrity. So it's nice and simple. Crimea is Ukraine. Russia agreed that Crimea is Ukraine. Repeatedly. Russia even leased military bases in Crimea - and accepted that this was a lease which Ukraine had the right to end. Hence cutting gas supplies to Ukraine in Winter, in order to coerce the government to renew the leases.

              The only free, fair and legitimate vote that the people of Crimea have had on the matter, agrees that Crimea is part of Ukraine. The UN and a vast majority of countries agree that Crimea is part of Ukraine. Including Belarus that have allied themselves with Russia in this invasion, and while not attacking Ukraine themselves, have allowed Russia to attack Ukraine from within their territory.

              Hope that helps.

              This is a very simple and non complicated issue.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Russia is the one responsible

                Gaza was just a city in Ottoman Syria. The 1947 UN plan cleaning up the mess after the fall of the Ottoman empire some 30 years earlier had a single country called Israel. In 1949 it was Egypt that occupied what is now called the Gaza strip and Jordan annexed the west bank starting the fractured mess that we have been dealing with ever since.

                Crimea has been historically more connected to the Turks and other peoples to the south and east than the European Slavs and Rus to the north and west. The Soviets wiped out the Crimean Tatars and claimed it as their own.

              2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                Re: Russia is the one responsible

                Which is one of the reasons Isreal are again occupying Gaza

                They aren't 'occupying' Gaza, they're systematically destroying it and demonstrating our hypocrisy. Russia launches massive drone & missile strikes supposedly targetting civilians and yet in 3yrs has probably killed fewer civilians that Israel's managed in a few weeks.

                All provinces of Ukraine voted to leave in an agreed referendum, including Crimea. Admittedly Crimea by 50-something percent, when even the Donbas provinces were around 70%

                citation needed

                The Russian Federation ten signed the Budapest Memorandum guaranteeing that it was happy with this, that it agreed that Crimea was in Ukraine and that it would never attempt to destroy Ukraine's territorial integrity.

                Ye gods. You're still running with that line of BS? So Crimea was-

                Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic

                Autonomous Republic of Crimea

                Then along came Biden and Nuland's coup, the fsck'ng of the EU, regime change, ukraine's civil war starting and the new regime consolidating power in Kiev and starting on their de-Russification pogrom. But there were also the Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet dividing up the Black Sea Fleet between Russia and ukraine and basing rights in exchange for discounted gas. Then the Khakiv Pact doing much the same, but increasing the price of gas paid by ukraine because they'd been stealing it. But the big one was this one-

                https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52240.pdf

                Article 6

                Each High Contracting Party shall refrain from participating in, or supporting, any actions directed against the other High Contracting Party, and shall not conclude any treaties with third countries against the other Party. Neither Party shall allow its territory to be used to the detriment of the security of the other Party

                Along with other articles respecting each others cultures, traditions, religions which the Kiev regime promptly ignored, announcing they were going to join NATO and forcing poor lil Zelensky to learn to speak ukrainian. Then in 2018, Poroshenko unilateraly decided to end the treaty without putting it to a vote of Ukraine's parliament, because that's just how democracy works in ukraine. Thus Poroshenko announced the world in no uncertain terms that Russia and ukraine were no longer friends, and the SMO became inevitable.

                The Budapest Memorandum was purely about removing nuclear weapons from ukraine's control, and again where Zelensky demonstrated his skill as a diplomat and statesman with these comments-

                https://kyivindependent.com/zelenskys-full-speech-at-munich-security-conference/

                Ukraine has received security guarantees for abandoning the world's third nuclear capability. We don't have that weapon. We also have no security.

                Back in the days where Zelensky wore a suit and didn't have Elizabeth Holmes voice coach. But Russia heard mention of the 'n' word, observed the buildup of uAF troops poised to attack the Donbas, the cries for NATO membership, weapons and of course cash, lots and lots of cash.. And the SMO began a few days later.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Russia is the one responsible

            I don't see a prospect for peace in Ukraine without either Russia pulling out or taking all of Ukraine and I suspect neither do Trump or Putin. No solution is palatable to both sides currently so it will be either another forever localised war or WW3. Meanwhile defence companies get fatter and more influential.

      3. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

        Re: Russia is the one responsible

        Trying to get on the winning side again he is...

      4. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: Russia is the one responsible

        They're the ones flying drones over Poland and other NATO countries.

        Are they? The drones that somehow managed to avoid being shot down by Ukraine, who frequently claim to shoot down 97% of everything Russia sends at them. But somehow Ukraine managed to miss a dozen unarmed drones, all of the same type that somehow ended up in Poland, despite only having a 700km range.

        Funny how that started up in the last couple months when Ukraine's homegrown drones have been scoring major victories destroying Russia's oil infrastructure leading to gas shortages all over Russia.

        Ukraine's rather good at that. So destroyed Russian-German infrastructure leading to gas shortages in Germany and the EU. Or pipelines and pumping stations leading to shortages in Hungary. Gas shortages in Russia? Less so given Russia has a lot of capacity, and can also import from Belarussian refineries, if it needed to.

        Ukraine is only going to press this advantage and no amount of bombing Ukrainian civilians is going to stop it.

        Ah, the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy, much beloved of the Bbc. Which oddly published an interesting image here-

        https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c75qeqr5905o

        Emergency services said an attack on Kyiv's Institute of Cardiology had killed a nurse and a patient.

        Was the Institute the target, or was it collateral damage and..

        The sound of anti-aircraft fire was punctuated with occasional explosions - presumably either from the sound of an intercepted drone or one hitting its target.

        Which isn't an either-or, because gravity. And the image shows <something> being intercepted. Big cloud of debris, something, possibly part of the interceptor continuing up and to the left, something else continuing downwards towards a couple of high rises. Because that's the reality of air defences. A drone or missile might get hit, but it's still going to fall, and because it's been hit, it probably isn't going to hit what it was aimed at. Plus there's a multiplication of risk & debris. It can be normal to double-tap and launch two interceptors at a incoming object, creating 3 lots of falling debris.. Including potentially live warheads that can still detonate on the ground. There's been some other videos including one showing another intercept where the target continues on down and a large explosion when it lands, but can't find that one again.

        1. Wellyboot Silver badge

          Re: Russia is the one responsible

          Please look at a map, Poland has a direct land border with Russia, the Kaliningrad Oblast, it's barely 700km from Denmark let alone almost anywhere in Poland. Then there's the Poland/Belarus border, Belrus being the launch point for part of the 2022 invasion. Neither of these need go anywhere near Ukrainian airspace.

          I agree Ukraine is rather good at targeting critical infrastructure (and surprise targets), it's almost as if they'd been listening to advice from experts* in that sort of thing for the last decade.

          Shooting down any incoming drone or missile over your own territory guarantees all the wreckage lands on you, that's' why placing anti-air defenses outside of built up areas on the expected lines of flight allows many attacks to be brought down in open countryside**, only a small number make it into the cities where the last ditch anti-air systems are and even then a random impact will (most of the time) not hit anything critical.

          *experts from countries that Russia had managed to really annoy

          **Because of this in WW2, most allied bombers didn't come down over actual German cities and most V1 drones aimed at London were brought down over farmland after they had crossed the coast.

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: Russia is the one responsible

            Please look at a map, Poland has a direct land border with Russia, the Kaliningrad Oblast, it's barely 700km from Denmark let alone almost anywhere in Poland. Then there's the Poland/Belarus border, Belrus being the launch point for part of the 2022 invasion. Neither of these need go anywhere near Ukrainian airspace.

            I have, thanks. Namely the one issued by Ukraine showing the flight paths and the drones being launched from inside Russia, flying across ukrainian airspace and into Poland.. Which is too far for those drones range. Of course that map is an artists impression and if those weren't the flight paths, then those maps obviously can't be trusted. And if you look at a map, I'm pretty sure the ones that landed closest to ukraine's border are >700km from Kaliningrad, and I don't think there have been any claims they were launched from Belarus. But it's one of those 'trust me bro!' things that ukraine didn't launch the drones themselves.

            Shooting down any incoming drone or missile over your own territory guarantees all the wreckage lands on you, that's' why placing anti-air defenses outside of built up areas on the expected lines of flight allows many attacks to be brought down in open countryside

            Nice bit of theorycrafting with a shot of copium.. Rather easily countered by the Reuters/Bbc image showing an intercept over Kiev with the debris falling towards it.

            *experts from countries that Russia had managed to really annoy

            By Russia not bending over for our 'leaders' and their schlock & awe sanctions? Then further annoying them by not being out of missiles within the first few weeks, as we were promised? Or by rebuffing ukraine's advances in the much hyped offensive that should have allowed our 'leaders' to celebrate with victory cocktails on a Crimean or Sea of Azov bridge? Or the the way they used their shovels to dig out ukrainians from Kursk.. Yep, I can see how that could be annoying for our 'leaders' that Russia is still fighting, when we've spent so much blood and treasure convincing ukraine to fight to the last Ukrainian..

          2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

            Re: Russia is the one responsible

            Wellyboot,

            As far as I know, none of the Russian drones in that big wave into Poland came from Kaliningrad. They came over Ukraine or Belarus. The Belarusian government even claimed at the time to have shot some of them down, and notified Poland about others. Although that could be because Russia fired some of them from inside Belarus - and they're embarrassed - rather than because they were off course and might land in their cities. Part of an attempt to maintain plausible deniability, in other words.

            On the other hand Jellied Eel's pretence that they can't be from Russia is equally wrong. We don't know enough to know. Some of them were definitely Russian drones, most of them were unarmed decoys. If this had been an accident, or Ukrainian GPS spoofing or something, you'd expect some armed drones to have been in the mix. Thus it looks more like deliberate provocation - but within limits. And Ukraine will only waste precious missiles on drones that are aimed at targets it is set up to defend - that's the point about having integrated air defence. You can prioritise your targets, and in the case of Ukraine, being regularly hit with saturation attacks, you need to husband your expensive missiles and try to hit the slow and cheap drones with gunfire.

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Russia is the one responsible

              Some of them were definitely Russian drones, most of them were unarmed decoys. If this had been an accident, or Ukrainian GPS spoofing or something, you'd expect some armed drones to have been in the mix.

              All of the ones shown were originally Russian drones. Poland hasn't presented any evidence that any of them were armed.

              If this had been an accident, or Ukrainian GPS spoofing or something, you'd expect some armed drones to have been in the mix.

              Indeed. But there wasn't. Instead, pictures of drones perched neatly on fragile chicken coop, and one house that had been damaged. That later turned out to have been as a result of a dud AIM-120 fired from an F-16. But there were pictures of those Russian drones on display in ukrainian museums. There was data showing a 700km range. They somehow flew considerably more than 700km. How so? Especially strong tailwinds?

              Thus it looks more like deliberate provocation - but within limits.

              My point exactly.. Especially after ukrainian missiles previously killed two Polish farmers, ukraine denied it and tried to blame those on Russia until it was eventually proven that ukraine launched them. Poland could, of course clear things up, but has refused to provide any evidence. So instead Poles are ripping the pish out of the Polish government and making memes of toys armed with vodka bottles. But the provocation has served its purpose. Two Article 4 meetings, a chorus of claims that NATO is at war with Russia instead of simply 'defending ukraine' and at vote at the UN that only managed to attract the usual suspects & managed (from memory) less than 50 votes.

              Tell lies often enough, and eventually people stop believing you.

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Russia is the one responsible

        "They're the ones flying drones over Poland"

        Perhaps, the problem is you can't be sure of that. There are lies upon lies from all sides.

    3. Casca Silver badge

      Re: More pointless fearmongering

      Oh look. Another moronic AC. Post with you handle will you. To scared?

  4. beardman

    In the West they call it "hybrid warfare". If they called it what it really is - the war - they would need to do something about it. Now they can just sit on their hands...

    1. ChoHag Silver badge

      I believe it is called a special computery operation.

  5. Long John Silver Silver badge
    Pirate

    'The UK' doesn't equate to its population

    Even should the UK become formally at war with Russia and with other places where decency lingers, don't conclude that it's the British people against the dastardly foreigners.

    Warfare remains the preserve of the monarch, among other 'residual powers'. In practice, that means, war is waged by a powerful self-perpetuating cabal within the Privy Council. These days, monarchs are employees of the Council who can be dismissed if they become uppity.

    Parliament, had negligible say in foreign policy, defence policy, and in declaration of war. Given that universal franchise representative 'democracy' is a nonsensical decision-taking tool, perhaps Parliament's exclusion is prudent. PMs, and Secretaries of State, automatically receive membership of the Privy Council, but in recent decades none qualify for inclusion within the inner cabal; one glance at the shabby crowd explains why.

    The interesting question is whether plebeians (and many of their betters) are as insular, ignorant, conformist, and in thrall to pageantry, as their forebears in WW1 and WW2. Shall they rush forward for 'King and Country' after shallowing a yarn about existential threat or 'principle' worthy of sacrifice of life? WW1 was a nonsensical conflict among mainland European powers; what Kipling called, 'the lesser breeds' to be found in mainland Europe, and elsewhere, should have been left to stew in they own juices; in the aftermath, Britain could have picked through the pieces for tasty morsels instead of bankrupting itself.

    Britain's participation in WW2 is portrayed as leading a noble cause (until the USA joined in and won the war) - no mention of Russians. Yet, Germany initially was no threat to the UK, and need never have been. Germany's "gangster regime" could have been left to implode naturally. Once again, Britain would not have been bankrupted. Moreover, the Japanese could have been left to pursue their grudge against the USA.

    Of course, powerful factions, especially bankers, benefit from warfare: rarely do ordinary people. The common man is left with 'Remembrance Ceremonies' for people foolishly caught up in schemes they didn't begin to understand.

    One might have thought that post-WW2, the expansion of eduction would give rise to a more savvy population capable of resisting demand they sacrifice themselves for empty causes profitable to other people. Not so, and 'enlightened' folk, from a stock which in later decades would embrace 'woke' and transgender nonsense, ended selective education and ruined further and tertiary education. Additional damage to tertiary education arose from a political cadre opposed to the 'enlightened', but equally crass and prone to impose ideology (in their case neoliberal ideas including making universities and scholarship 'businesslike').

    Nowadays, the mass of the population is ill-educated, and punchdrunk from 'austerity', from an idiotically managed Covid-19 local epidemic, from more austerity resulting from that, and from yet more austerity flowing from inherently incompetent NATO's silly attempt to weaken Russia by conflict on the Ukraine with an end view to Balkanising Russia and exploiting its resources. Meanwhile, income and wealth disparities have mushroomed.

    The upshot is that a vast majority of Britons, soaked relentlessly by propaganda, would go along with plans, fronted by Mr Starmer, by Ms Bad Enoch, or by Mr Farage (with Yaxley-Lennon in tow) calling upon sacrifice of life to preserve Western 'democracy', 'freedoms', and 'values'.

    1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Linux

      Re: 'The UK' doesn't equate to its population

      @Long John Silver

      As you have already selected the most appropriate icon for your profession, please accept this Penguin as a stand-in for your Parrot

      1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

        Re: 'The UK' doesn't equate to its population

        I second your applause for Long John Silver’s erudite post, Fruit and Nutcase.

        Surely by now, .... because of the undeniable evidence of the failure of democratically elected Parliamentarians to successfully imagine and effectively manage and lead any operation either at home or abroad and nowadays also remotely virtually both in and/or from cyberspace ..... MI5/MI6/MOD must have war-gamed new leadership direction[s] taking everything to an altogether much greater place.

        And if they haven’t, then they should, and tout de fcuking suite before all is further surprisingly quickly lost to other stealthy forces and spooky services way beyond any of their abilities and facilities to influentially command and practically exercise for physical control.

        Don’t they realise they have sovereign immunity to act with the autonomous impunity generously afforded to the virtually anonymous and superlatively secret. Use it, and IT and AI .... or lose it, IT and AI.

        IT and AI Shenanigans aint difficult space rocket science.

        1. bravo6

          Re: 'The UK' doesn't equate to its population

          What a fu**ing word salad of nonsense.

          1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

            Re: 'The UK' doesn't equate to its population

            What a fu**ing word salad of nonsense. ... bravo6

            Oh dear ...... but never mind. As is most always the case whenever referencing something unpleasant and/or new and quite different and disruptive, are matter revealed to be way beyond the ken of normal pay grades. It’s only natural ........ and fully expected in such elevationary circles.

          2. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

            Re: 'The UK' doesn't equate to its population @bravo6

            Have you not been around here long enough to know that this is what amanfrommars1 does? (Oh. New user in 2022. Maybe not!)

            Over the years we've been asking whether it's a proto-AI from before the current AI bubble began, or a someone writing a response, and then passing it through several language translators to jumble up the meaning, or just a seeded random word selector with some grammatical rules.

            There's enough meaning to show that it is a comment about an article, but it's so 'loose' in the use of language that to try to get any sense at all requires several readings. Take a mind-bending trip through some of the past posts!

            I think the original intent of whoever owns the handle was that, as the name suggests, it's a being so unfamiliar with the Earth and it's politics and languages to allow it to spout near gibberish to prompt for uncomprehending responses.

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