The march of Macs into the enterprise: Demand is on the increase

No, it isn't an April Fool's joke we forgot to publish. The Register* actually made it to a recent in-person Apple event: the 2022 Mac Administrator and Developer conference, MacAD. Apple, it seems, may be getting ever more serious about the enterprise. The theme of the event - with actual humans in the Brighton seafront venue …

[DS999]

Re: Not sure they "don't care"

If you lose a whole morning, maybe you should invest in reading up on what you use

GP post reads like "tell me you're a Windows admin who knows little about Macs without telling me you're a Windows admin who knows little about Macs".

[werdsmith]

Re: Not sure they "don't care"

Same goes the other way with the comment about not being able to control when you update on Windows. Of course you can control that, especially in a WSUS environment. So many criticisms of software that I read are misconceptions. Or just plain lies.

[Furious Reg reader John]

Re: Apple don't care for the enterprise

This shows how much they care - https://www.theregister.com/2022/04/06/apple_patched_zerodays_in_macos/

No roadmap = enterprise's have to make assumptions in their planning about Apple's behaviour

but, Apple's behaviour = random a lot of the time, such as not issuing fixes for allegedly supported version, but now actually appear to be unsupported.

And yes, it's fine having dedicated support channels for the enterprise, but that only offers limited support after things go wrong. How is Apple's dedicated enterprise support channel going to fix vulnerabilities that Apple won't fix?

"It's just something you end up living with" because the simple facts are that "Apple don't care for the enterprise".

[Tim99]

Re: Apple don't care for the enterprise

Maybe some enterprises care for Apple? I posted this here 18 months ago:-

———-

...At the end of 2019 they (IBM) had ~290,000 Apple devices of which ~200,000 use macOS. At the same time they had 383,800 employees, obviously some employees will use more than one device. I have a relative who is a very senior IBM techie who told me that in his (large) part of IBM far more techies use Linux than Windows - He was also of the opinion that a number of IBMers elected to go to Apple rather than move from Windows 7 to 10.

According to IBM, Mac users cost less to support with about 1/3 of the support personnel and are generally happier and more productive.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/ibm-cio-mac-users-perform-better-more-engaged-than-windows-users/

https://www.jamf.com/resources/press-releases/ibm-announces-research-showing-mac-enables-greater-productivity-and-employee-satisfaction-at-ibm/

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/IBM/ibm/number-of-employees

[Tom Chiverton 1]

+1 for JumpCloud - single control panel, all 3 O/S. Awesome tech support (we had an issue with KDE, update in works).

[45RPM]

The experience I have is that Macs work for longer (so the lifetime cost is lower) and they cost less to support (with the proviso that your IT infrastructure is set up to work in a Mac friendly manner, rather than a Windows friendly manner).

It used to be that if you were a business, and you needed to get business done, you used a PC (with DOS or Windows), if you were a creative you used a Mac and if you wanted to play games you used an Amiga.

In the 2020s it seems that you’re a business, and you need to get business done, you use a Mac, if you’re a creative you use Linux (with the caveat that we still use Macs for that use-case too, but Linux seems to be very well catered for in this field) and if you want to play games you use Windows.

[Anonymous Coward]

Anticipated Asset Lifetime for a standard windows laptop - including warranty period - typically 36 months. (Max life is obvs longer, but we're talking AAL here).

Mac? I'd easy give them 72 months AAL. EoL determined by how far through the product lifecycle a given model is and how long support lasts. (Yes, people got burned by the short software life of the G5). Barely longer than the power supplies lasted.

[Smirnov]

Yes, people got burned by the short software life of the G5

Not sure that is correct. The PowerMac G5 was sold from 2003 to 2006, and the last MacOS version that supports it (10.5 Leopard) was fully supported until June 2011 (which is 5 years after end of sale).

Which means depending on when you bought your G5 it was supported for 5 to 9 years.

[Anonymous Coward]

36 Months?

We take the extended warranty that lasts 36 months. Then we use them for perhaps 5 years or (better) till they break. At that point, we cannibalise where possible. At some point in the future, we will doubtless have to change over to Windoze11 and its TPM but, until then, we have no users with it and 10 works fine if you put an SSD and lots of memory on a 4+ year old device.

[Snapper]

Re: 36 Months?

I frequently upgrade Macs over 15 years old, and last month I got the gig to replace 10 x G4 PowerMac towers from 2002/2003. They'd had their original CRT displays replaced with Apple 30-inch Cinema Displays about 2008.

Still all working, and I usually visited about once a month to do general maintenance.

Their business is changing direction due their market disappearing with Brexit, so an intended major revamp in 2025 has been brought forward.

[43300]

Re: 36 Months?

Likewise - I look to get at least 5 to 6 years out of laptops. Desktops can quite often go to 7 or 8 years if they are only used for basic stuff.

Yes, a few will die beyond the end of the 3-year warranty, and may or may not be repairable economically (laptops especially - although bits can quite often be obtained on ebay relatively cheaply). but we get the lifetime we expect out of most devices.

[Falmari]

@45RPM I disagree with paragraphs “It used to be” and “In the 2020s” so just for fun I think they should read thus. ;)

It used to be that if you were a business, and you needed to get business done, you used a PC (with DOS or Windows), if you were a creative you used a Mac for 2D graphics an Amiga for animation and video and an Atari ST for music and if you wanted to play games you used an Amiga or Atari ST.

In the 2020s it seems that you’re a business, and you need to get business done, you use Windows, if you’re a creative you use a Mac and if you want to play games you use PlayStation, Xbox or Windows as none of them have all the AAA games.

Linux business use is the backend infrastructure, servers etc.

Of course, these are just generalisations, as I said just for fun.

[45RPM]

Far too sensible and well considered. You’ll never start a flame war by being reasonable! Have a thumbs up.

[Anonymous Coward]

In the 2020s you need to get business done, you use a Mac

In the 2020s it seems that you’re a business, and you need to get business done, you use a Mac, if you’re a creative you use Linux (with the caveat that we still use Macs for that use-case too, but Linux seems to be very well catered for in this field) and if you want to play games you use Windows.

Sorry but that's nonsense.

Even today, with Mac sales higher than ever before, the majority of business applications are still Windows only. The only saving grace here is that more and more stuff has been transferred to becoming web based so the OS no longer matters much as long as it has a modern web browser.

And as for creatives using Linux, that has never been true either. Most creative tools like the Adobe suite aren't even available for Linux, and the Linux (FOSS) substitutes, aside from exceptions like Blender, are so poor that one would rather use Windows versions of creative tools under Wine or in a VM. In reality, though, creatives rather stick with macOS or Windows, aside from a few niches (e.g. use of Linux as render farms).

Apple didn't name it's newest Mac 'Studio' for no reason ;)

[45RPM]

Re: In the 2020s you need to get business done, you use a Mac

What business software do you need that doesn’t have an acceptable alternative on the Mac? Sure, the big name might not be available, but that doesn’t mean that there’s nothing available for a Mac Only enterprise (trust me on this, I run one, and support another).

With regard to creative software on Linux, I admit that I was being slightly flippant. But the same point as the above exists - in amongst the ‘rubbish’ on Linux there are some real diamonds - and not just Blender either. If your creative field is video, 3D or software development in particular then Linux has your back. And just because it doesn’t have ‘Adobe’ plastered all over it, doesn’t mean that it isn’t great.

[Snapper]

Re: In the 2020s you need to get business done, you use a Mac

'And just because it doesn’t have ‘Adobe’ plastered all over it, doesn’t mean that it isn’t great'

There are much better modern and cheaper alternatives to Adobe's buggy baggage. Just take a look at Affinity Software's equivalents of Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign.

[captain veg]

Re: The experience I have is that Macs work for longer

The experience that I have is that my standard PCs (running Linux mostly) run perfectly well until and beyond the point that accountants have determined that they have no value and the BOFHs insist that out of warranty means obsolete.

There was one exception: a Dell XPS720. Never, ever spec a supposedly standard machine that's based on a hardware architecture (in this case BTX) which no one else is using or looks likely to adopt.

-A.

[Kabukiwookie]

need to get business done, you use a Mac,

A lot of people who used to have Mac, had so many issues (overheating, IMAP against o365 breaking, USB devices randomly being blocked after pressing the incessant nags for updates), that they finally decided to go to a Windows desktop.

With Apple now starting to serialise their hardware components, you must have a fat purse and be a gluttom for punishment to keep on buying Apple crapware...

On the other hand, my Lenovo X230 has been buzzing with Linux for the last 10 years and still performs more than adequate for coding and administrative work.

[45RPM]

Except for laptop toastiness, I’ve never experienced those issues. And all my Macs, from the SE/30, through my Quadra, G3, G5, Mac Pro, MacBook Air (and all those of my colleagues) still work. I have a storeroom of old Macs from the day my business first started through to the present day - and I am reasonably sure that I can pull any one of them out and have it boot.

But if we want to talk about overheating, I’d be delighted to show you my Lenovo (or, in fairness, any of my laptops with an Intel or PPC CPU - this isn’t a Windows vs Mac thing!)

[F. Frederick Skitty]

"I am reasonably sure that I can pull any one of them out and have it boot."

I hope you removed the internal batteries from your older Macs before storing them - when those things leak with age they can destroy a machine.

[45RPM]

Yup - as with all machines. They have no batteries. Some require a little power to boot, but the trick there is to plug them in and flick the PSU on, off and on again. Which, in fairness, must put some strain on those old caps. I will recap them one day. Maybe. Well, if I need the machine again.

[Kabukiwookie]

this isn’t a Windows vs Mac thing!

Nobody mentioned previouasy that it was.

I only mentioned that my 10+ year old Lenovo was still happily spinning.

How many Macbook Airs older than 10 years are still around. If I need to change my battery, I can pull it out of the bottom, dkn't have to completely open the case, heat up the battery, clean up glue residue, glue it back in and close the case again.

If I for any reason need to change the RAM modules I can do this without having to unscrew the case, as there's a little latch on the bottom that makes changing RAM a matter of minutes...

Apple crapware is designed with planned obsolescence in mind. If you don't mind polluting the planet unnecessarily, while paying double for a piece of kit, than what you'd pay for equivalent hardware from any other vendor, you should go for it...

It's just not something I personally think is a good use of resources.

[45RPM]

Hmm. I have a 2010 MacBook Air which I still use regularly. I’ve replaced the battery (I don’t remember any glue getting in the way), and I’ve upgraded the SSD. The memory is fixed, but for light work I can get away with it. It’s running Sierra quite happily.

[Fred Daggy]

Perhaps it's because I have an old mac, but my Macbook pro from 2011, purchased in 2012 celebrated it's 10th birthday the other day. Yes, replaced the disk with bog standard SSD (not possible now, of course). Works still like a dream.

A word from the wise. Buy up any off the last macbooks you see being offered for sale. the ones with user replaceable ram and hard disks. These are going to be in great demand shortly. 2016 and older, perhaps. 2015 for sure. You WILL be able to sell at a profit if the kit was in any way looked after.

Perhaps soldering is going to be the next tech skill in demand, to remove and upgrade those damn mac hard disks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has been Enterprise ready for a while...

I've worked on deploying MacOS within work places.

After a lot of playing around with different vendors we found JAMF was the best product to use. It's like SCCM and Intune slapped together in a toolset that works really well with the control you could only dream you had on the Windows side of things.

Application packaging and deployment was soo much easier than Windows. I've used many tools over the year for different system on windows and they are all clunky compared to JAMF Composer although it does look they took the best parts of some of the products from other vendors.

JAMF integrated really well with Azure Conditional Access and even has a PKI connector for AD if you want to go down that route.

I'm not really an Apple fan but they had deployment from out of the box way before Autopilot and patching and managing your devices is easy.

We give our business users the choice of device and it's about 50/50 but the resources to manage Apple are very low. Hardware prices about the same compared to business Windows laptop. But you save a lot where you don't have to pay Microsoft each year just to use their Operating System.

[DS999]

Re: Apple has been Enterprise ready for a while...

Yeah that yearly enterprise license fee really adds up over time, and most people don't figure it in when comparing prices and declaring Apple "overpriced".

And it has a bigger effect the longer the lifecycle you expect from a PC - i.e. if you go from 3 year to 5 year replacement cycle that's two more yearly Microsoft bills that have to be included in the cost of the Windows laptop.

Obviously for home users the math is completely different. For now at least. Microsoft seems to be slowly moving towards making Windows a yearly subscription for home users.

[Spanners]

Re: Apple has been Enterprise ready for a while...

It's the same licence whether I make the computer last 3 years or 7.

We get rid of our old kit, we don't need licences for it any more. Don't you?

[Falmari]

Re: Apple has been Enterprise ready for a while...

@DS999 “And it has a bigger effect the longer the lifecycle you expect from a PC - i.e. if you go from 3 year to 5 year replacement cycle that's two more yearly Microsoft bills that have to be included in the cost of the Windows laptop.”

The effect is not bigger the longer the lifecycle. If you went to a 5 year replacement cycle at 5 years when the laptop is replaced you would have had 5 years of Microsoft bills. If you stayed on the 3 year cycle after 5 years (2 years with the replacement laptop) you would have had 5 years of Microsoft bills.

The result is the same Microsoft’s hand would have gone in your pocket just as many times and taken the same amount.

5 years on enterprise is 5 years of Microsoft bills no matter how long your replacement cycle is.

[DS999]

Re: Apple has been Enterprise ready for a while...

No you're missing the point, if you are comparing "cost of laptops" you have to add in three years of support if you expect to use that laptop for three years. But five years of support if you expect to use that laptop for five years.

Yes, the yearly cost is the same either way but the people who claim Macs are expensive by saying "look at this Macbook for $2000 I can get the same config in Windows for half that" aren't comparing by yearly cost, they're comparing by upfront hardware cost and ignoring all the Windows subscription, CALs and other turds Microsoft's enterprise licensing flings at you each year.

[Tim99]

Re: Apple has been Enterprise ready for a while...

Very many years ago when Microsoft was still quite small, and I was sufficiently important to be taken out for a nice lunch by our MS Rep, a colleague asked him “What’s Microsoft’s slogan? IBM’s is THINK. Our "tired and emotional’ Rep said that he didn’t know that they had one, but he remembered that Bill had said "One hundred dollars a year from everyone". I believe it, as that seems to reflect their practices ever since…

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Apple has been Enterprise ready for a while...

What convinced our management to start up with Apple gear and stay with it (Linux on the server) was the TCO. The thing you can really annoy an MS sales rep with when they start talking about TCO is ask if they include staff time wasted during updates and general lesser usability.

The nice thing about Apple gear is that we're set up in such a way that a user can basically wander into any Apple or hardware shop, grab a new device and after a small download we can basically build it over VPN via the hotel WiFi while they go for dinner - profile based containers rock. We're still investigating the business buy functionality, but we started small and this worked well so we stuck with it (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think these are country-specific - you can't have a global business procurement ID). It meant no cupboards full of spares, no global support contracts - we have some devices spare but Apple and hardware stores effectively form our global backup.

As I said elsewhere, we were looking for an MDM but the two main players (JAMF and Snow) could not be used in our business. If Snow had not needed a Windows Server they could have had a foot in the door, but we're now looking at possibly writing our own.

License management was indeed also a consideration - I think one of top guys once had a visit from FAST. Unsuccessful as it was, it appears to have annoyed him so much that any company playing games with licenses has a hard time selling us anything because such dependencies weigh very heavily in the project and procurement approval process.

[M7S]

Reluctant Warning

We purchased Mac Mini Server a decade ago with Server OS X Leopard directly from Apple Business. I made the case to management regarding the server features as opposed to the cost of separate hardware (various decent brands) and licensing of our then (and current) MS applications.

We loved that we could run our own mail server as part of the application (with some other nice features), and a few other useful bits like shared folders, nothing particularly complicated or highly technical as we really didn't need much more.

After some testing and learning in IT, we were ready to deploy for user testing for a period of parallel running.

There was an apple OS update that we applied as advised to keep "secure" against new threats, the next day on switching on, all the "server" functions had gone. Just like that.

Enquiries revealed that despite purchasing the OS as part of the unit, it was no longer supported, we could re-purchase the "app" for a tiny sum but no guarantees from Apple that it would remain supported or not be withdrawn at a later date (and in fact all the useful features such as mail server have since been removed from later versions). They were very coy about it but had a compensation scheme to give you back the value of the app ($20) but only if you were registered in the US. UK (and presumably other) customers were very much "not first class citizens".

Had we gone live, been through the testing period and completed the transition it could have wiped us out as a small company.

Their attitude was that we could now purchase the functionality from 3rd party vendors, putting us back to the sort of costs we had with MS, and a complete inability to do this in-house.

Caveat Emptor

(We'd have purchased about 30 seats of hardware, along with portable devices in varying numbers had this worked, plus another several hundred seats after a later takeover that expanded our footprint considerably, along with other hardware, but I guess that's still not even small beer for them. Users still resent the windows phones forced upon them later....)

[Smirnov]

Re: Reluctant Warning

We purchased Mac Mini Server a decade ago with Server OS X Leopard directly from Apple Business.

Really? How did you do that when Leopard was end of support in 2011?

There was an apple OS update that we applied as advised to keep "secure" against new threats, the next day on switching on, all the "server" functions had gone. Just like that.

No surprise, as by 2012 your Leopard installation was without support and 2 or three generations behind the curve.

In addition, Mac OS changed from a dedicated Mac OS Server version (which did cost around $600) to a server app which is less than $100.

Enquiries revealed that despite purchasing the OS as part of the unit, it was no longer supported, we could re-purchase the "app" for a tiny sum but no guarantees from Apple that it would remain supported or not be withdrawn at a later date (and in fact all the useful features such as mail server have since been removed from later versions). They were very coy about it but had a compensation scheme to give you back the value of the app ($20) but only if you were registered in the US. UK (and presumably other) customers were very much "not first class citizens".

This isn't really surprising. If you buy Windows Server 2012 R2 (which is supported until 01/2023) today then in less than a year it will be out of support and if you want a supported OS version then you have to pay.

Your story is more of a warning against letting people who don't know what they are doing making IT purchasing decisions.

[Marty McFly]

Kit vs. kit

On the personal front, decade old Mini's keep running. MacBook Pro's keep working, even after a few battery replacements.

Meanwhile... My one year old corporate issued Dell laptop has busted the touchpad due to an expanding battery.

Shall I mention the countless wasted hours spent re-learning a new OS interface every time MSFT vomits their latest 'innovations' upon us? The constant battle of 'where did they hide that setting' in this every version.

I am actually surprised Apple/MacOS doesn't have more footprint in the enterprise. Obviously more expensive up front, but when all things are considered cheaper in the long run.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple Business Support

This is my experience of Apple Business Support.

A client had previously tried to integrate Apple Business Manager with O365 themselves, but gave up. However, they had managed to partially set things up and register their domain. I did not know this at the time when I was asked to implement the integration (again).

The first challenge was just getting access to ABM. Once this was done, I went through the process of setting things up on the O365 and ABM ends. Documentation was poor so took some figuring out. Finally, everything was setup, I had added and verified the domain and configured all the integration steps. I went to click the switch to enable federation. Only THEN did it tell me that the domain was in use on another ABM tenant. It doesn't tell you this when you add the domain in the first place.

I called Apple support. I was on the phone for several hours being passed round multiple teams, non of which had a clue what I was trying to report. I was eventually put through to someone who had heard of ABM and they logged a ticket. Nothing happened for some time, despite me chasing them up. They eventually got back to me weeks later to tell me that they had resolved the issue. However, I would still have to wait several more weeks before I would be able to enable federation for $reasons.

Finally I get the message telling me I can enable it. I go to turn it on. I am then told that >60 people have personal Apple IDs using this domain that will need to be seized back when federation is enabled. It won't tell me who, but does offer to send them a message on your behalf telling them they have to change their Apple ID within 60 days. The client wanted to know who exactly would be affected, but I am unable to tell them. I am still waiting on their decision as to how they want to proceed.

[Fursty Ferret]

""There's no question that that system is entirely secure," said Bridge."

That is an... interesting opinion to hold for someone in his position.

Mistakes are made all the time. I can remember factory-resetting an iPhone 7 to eBay it on and getting a message from the buyer to say that half my old SMS messages were still on it. This was a long time ago and presumably fixed, but it's a brave person to claim that something extremely complicated is perfect.

[Far out man]

IBM and Apple Hardware

This may be worth noting for a differing view

https://www.computerworld.com/article/3452847/ibm-mac-users-are-happier-and-more-productive.html

There are many articles relating to why IBM went down this route. TCO seems to be very important

[dave 93]

A Mac ate my hamster...

This thread is weird - It's almost as if some people have a pathological hatred of all things Apple...

[MisterHappy]

How do I use my Macbook here??

The usual answer is, "Register on the staff wi-fi and then use that to get to AVD, here's a link."

We have 7 MACs in our estate that are joined to the network, all in use by graphical/arty people. Most of the client software in use across the estate will not run on a MAC & no, not everything is available in a browser.

"I must have a MAC!!", the response is usually, "Why?". We are a 99% Windows environment & manage 8000+ PCs/Laptops, we have neither the time or inclination to support MACs.

I imagine that if we were 99% Apple then we would have the same reaction to someone bringing in a Window laptop.

[Marty McFly]

Re: How do I use my Macbook here??

Job security for you! According to the above referenced article about IBM & Mac deployment, fewer support resources are needed to support Mac users versus Windows users. So of course, push back on anyone wanting to use a Mac!

[MisterHappy]

Re: How do I use my Macbook here??

Would that be less resources needed to add MAC support to a fully managed Windows environment with 100s of applications in use across the whole estate?

I don't even know if there is an NHS spine client for a MAC, let alone how we would get any of the other stuff working on one.

[Plest]

6 of one....biggest issue is "hearts and minds"!

I've used Win/OS/Lin, all have pros and cons. Desktop is a desktop, first you need the right attitude.

Worked in IT for decades and the biggest stumbling block to anything is always getting people onboard, people hate change and so many will fight it any way they can. I've never understood that attitude, I got into tech 40 years ago because I love constant change and challenge, not in spite of it.

If you can convince a bunch of over stressed, over worked Ops system admins to take on new stuff and challenges then you're already almost there, tech is tech but changing minds takes a whole new level of management skill.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: 6 of one....biggest issue is "hearts and minds"!

Worked in IT for decades and the biggest stumbling block to anything is always getting people onboard, people hate change and so many will fight it any way they can. I've never understood that attitude, I got into tech 40 years ago because I love constant change and challenge, not in spite of it.

Same here, love IT and am always looking forward for what's new.

I get that people are generally resistant to change but in my experience t's usually the people who are more into IT that complain the loudest about any change while general users tend to be more accepting.

[trevorde]

Apple don't care for backward compatibility

At least a Windows update won't breaks your app. Microsoft has legendary backward compatibility. And cares about it.

[WolfFan]

Re: Apple don't care for backward compatibility

Oh? Really? As a former WinPhone user, I would just _love_ to hear more about this ‘legendary’ backwards compatibility. And while you’re at it, tell me how Win 11 is backwards compatible with my hardware. I’ll wait.

[Marty McFly]

Re: Apple don't care for backward compatibility

Bravo-Sierra!!!

Kicking and screaming, I migrated one of my final machines from Win7 to Win10 last week. It took hours to get everything installed and working. I had to fight countless little error messages for stupid problems that were introduced somewhere along the way as a 'good idea'.

Little things...like getting my fully paid and working license Office installed. Of course the OS wants me to enter a credit card number for a O365 subscription instead. After jumping a few hoops I got it sorted. Most non-technical users would roll over and put out their monthly payment instead.

Lots of creative breakage to try and 'monetize the user after the sale'.

[Tim99]

Re: Apple don't care for backward compatibility

I think you forgot the joke icon >>=====>