UK science stuck in 'holding pattern' on EU funding by Brexit, says minister

UK minister for science and research George Freeman has admitted that vital EU funding for research is in limbo while the nation continues to negotiate Brexit sticking points, namely Northern Ireland and fishing rights. Speaking to Parliament's Science and Technology Committee late last week, Department for Business, Energy & …

[Filippo]

Re: Equality

Huh? Why would you say that? There's nothing preventing anyone from doing research, as long as you can get someone to fund it. Private research is being done all the time. In many fields it's even better funded than universities.

Now, crank bullshit snake-oil research often has problems getting funded, but nobody is actively stopping it. It's just basic economics, not censorship.

[IDoNotThinkSo]

Re: Equality

Getting hold of research papers is expensive for those without academic access.

OK, it is better than it used to be, but still...

Also, try getting published without the right 'credentials'.

This doesn't have to be about cranks.

[Michael]

Re: Equality

Anyone can get published. Submit away. Take on reviewers feedback and follow standard practice for submissions and you will be fine.

There are plenty of places to pick up papers from. A certain online system is available with better access to papers than my university had at times.

[LybsterRoy]

Re: Equality

-- and you will be fine. --

Unless of course you're going against the "consensus" , or have been cancelled by the woke.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Re: Equality

(or unless your research is complete bullshit: it seems the Venn diagram areas for this and the concepts you mention overlap very significantly...)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Equality

Being bullshit is irrelevant. But try to publish anything that doesn't fit into IPCC politics and you lose your job in minutes.

That's one example where politics > science, 6-nil.

[Justthefacts]

Re: Equality

As a synthetic chemist, trained informally at the School of Hard Knocks (see later), I have developed novel and disruptive techniques for the synthesis of dioxygen difluoride, and azidoazide azide. My genius has been censored by the evil Elsevier publishing cartel, so I can only point you to links written by a guru. Thank me later

https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/things-i-won-t-work-dioxygen-difluoride

https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/things-i-won-t-work-azidoazide-azides-more-or-less

[Lotaresco]

Re: Equality

"Also, try getting published without the right 'credentials'."

I published my first scientific paper in the 1970s when I had no "credentials" at all (did you mean "qualifications" BTW? I didn't have those either at that time) and was 20 years old. I worked evenings in a laboratory and was allowed to perform my own research project. At the end of the work I was encouraged to publish. It's still my most cited work, fifty years after publication.

OTOH unless you have performed genuine research, done the appropriate literature searches and have argued your point cogently then you will fail peer-review and not get published.

A friend's son is in his mid-teens he has neither credentials nor qualifications. Yet he is happily publishing papers in mathematics and computing and these have been accepted by leading academic publications.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Equality

"OTOH unless you have performed genuine research, done the appropriate literature searches and have argued your point cogently then you will fail peer-review and not get published."

You'll will fail peer review every time you try to present anything non-orthodox. See: Climatology, which has devolved to a cult already in '00, 20 years ago.

Heretics were burned in stake and there haven't been any in last 20 years either. Not many want to commit a scientific suicide.

[Cuddles]

Re: Equality

"Getting hold of research papers is expensive for those without academic access."

Getting hold of research papers is the same price for everyone. As many people have pointed out, pretty much the only thing required for anyone to do research is finding the funding. Access to existing research is just another part of that. Academics don't have some kind of magic insider access to everything, they have to use a not insignificant portion of their funding to pay for it. This is a large part of why there's such a push these days for open access publishing. It's not because there's a groundswell of citizen-scientists demanding access to the ivory tower, it's simply that researchers are fed up of being held over a barrel by a few big publishers and want to be able to get on with their jobs without having to flush half their funding down the drain just to have access to information they need.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Equality

"Getting hold of research papers is the same price for everyone."

That's absolute bull. Academic institutions get them publications for free (or nominal fee) and the others pay thousands of dollars per year per publication.

Have you any idea what you are talking about? Ask any librarian in an University, they'll tell you.

[martinusher]

Re: Equality

>Everyone should be able to do research, not just $cientists from unis.

Its a street cred thing. Nobody's stopping anyone from doing research in their garden shed (unless its on topics that pose public safety issues) but they find difficulty getting public funding for it.

[elsergiovolador]

Re: Equality

You don't get access to papers unless you belong to a clique.

[Nick Porter]

Re: Equality

This is bollocks though isn't it? You are free to pay for subscriptions to any journal you want. Or you could just go to ant public library that participates in Access To Research and most every major journals for free.

[Charlie Clark]

Re: Equality

Improved access to research paid for by public funds is something that many scientists have been pushing for many years now and one of the reasons for the pre-publication servers like arxiv.

But, when it comes to building whatever gizmo is required for the research or the computers required for the analysis or whatever, the funding needs to come from somewhere and the various EU programmes have a pretty good track record in both pooling the funding and in allocating reasonably fairly – some kind of horse trading has to go on.

[khjohansen]

Re: Equality

You are free to conduct your own research - you're also free to secure your own funding, and WE are free to poke holes in your methodology ... !

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Equality

"...and WE are free to poke holes in your methodology ... !"

But it doesn't work the other way round, of course.

Trying to poke holes in methodology of published scientists is brushed away as 'incompetence' and 'this is peer-reviewed, there're no errors anywhere'.

And don't forget the gold standard:"not working in the field" as if scientific method was field-dependent.

Some people believe it is and these people are one of the major problems in science today.

[Anonymous Coward]

Brexit got done

Why do British universities think they're still entitled to EU funding?

English entitlement redux

(anonymous, because I work for one)

[Chris G]

Re: Brexit got done

I was under the impression that post Brexit Britain would be able to forge ahead, finding it's own partners for it's endeavours without input or meddling from Europe.

It is very complicated though, perhaps I just don't understand enough.

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: Brexit got done

finding it's own partners for it's endeavours without input or meddling from Europe.

And it wants to partner with other countries, some of whom are in the EU, on scientific R&D. That's what Horizon does.

perhaps I just don't understand enough

Or perhaps haven't read enough about it before adding an anti-Brexit knee-jerk comment??

[Charlie Clark]

Re: Brexit got done

Horizon is an EU programme. The EU has lots of initiatives that allow other countries to participate in research, but it sets the rules. Switzerland has managed to get itself into a similar position to the UK after voting to terminate treaties with the EU, with places like ETH Zürich desperate to avoid being sidelined.

[Lars]

Re: Brexit got done

@Charlie Clark

Any link to the "voting to terminate treaties with the EU".

Any help in here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland%E2%80%93European_Union_relations

[Lars]

Re: Brexit got done

@Charlie Clark

Any link to the "voting to terminate treaties with the EU".

Any help in here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland%E2%80%93European_Union_relations

"On 15 November 2021, Maroš Šefčovič, EU Vice President responsible for Swiss-EU negotiations and Brexit struck a more conciliatory tone with Swiss Foreign Minister Ignazio Cassis, when they met in Brussels. The two sides agreed to establish a structured political dialog at ministerial level, and re-open bilateral talks in early 2022. The Swiss Foreign minister in particular insisted that Switzerland will be integrated back into the Erasmus+ and the Horizon Europe programmes. At stake are a number of agreements between Switzerland and the EU, including future access to EU's electricity market, as well as EU citizens' availability of Swiss social security benefits.".

[Lars]

Re: Brexit got done

@Cris G

Yes I would agree with you.

Could it be you feel the big bad EU has forced Britain to take part in all those meddling endeavours.

The thing is that we are bigger together in Europe and it's not just about money but about people and resources too.

And there are lots of people on both side of the Channel who hope the cooperation should continue regardless of Brexit.

Some Brits have this tendency of proudly claiming they are the fifth greatest in the world, probably not true, but regardless, if you add up the 1 to 4 countries then Britain is just above 5% of that sum. The five pence you would not care to pick up in a urinal.

Some get it some don't.

[RegGuy1]

Re: Brexit got done

For those who would like to know a bit more there are comments about Horizon in this UK in a Changing Europe article: Health and Brexit in the UK: two years on. TL;DR: the UK's pissing about with politics is the source of the problems. Of course anyone (except a brexit voter) could have told you this, but it does provide evidence to support its arguments. Not that this would change any brexiter's mind -- we already know they don't respond to facts.

Alas the only solution to these problems is to leave it a few years waiting for the oldest of them to die off. They refuse to accept they were and remain wrong, so our shit situation will persist until their numbers are depleted. Very sad. :-(

[Missing Semicolon]

Re: Brexit got done

The problem is the entirely unjustified linking of research collaboration with the pissing contest in the channel, and the clusterfart that is the NI protocol. The fishing issue is simply France trying to "renegotiate" the new normal of having to ask nicely to fish in what is now somebody else's waters. An agreement they signed, remember. And NI was plainly unworkable as soon as the EU started insisting on a ridiculous interpretation. Rather in the way that you can't play "Just a Minute" if you take the rules at face value.

I'll ignore the nasty comment at the end.

[Yes Me]

Re: Brexit got done

"And NI was plainly unworkable..."

As everybody except Johnson and Toady Frost knew, including every sentient being in Northern Ireland.

Nothing new here except that NI politics has collapsed into a small stinking heap as a result.

[Xalran]

Re: Brexit got done

[i]The fishing issue is simply France trying to "renegotiate" the new normal of having to ask nicely to fish in what is now somebody else's waters.[/i]

Actually no... It's France asking for what the UK agreed to. ( not so nicely now since UK has been dragging it's feet at granting what it has agreed to )

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Brexit got done

Actually no... It's France asking for what the UK agreed to.

Actually yes. The UK is asking for what France agreed to, not the reverse.

The UK has delivered almost 1800 fishing licences, almost all those which have been requested. There remain 50 outstanding requests from French boats which refuse to provide the necessary proof of previous operation (most likely because they never bothered to keep such info). In order to get their licences, all the skippers of those boats have to do is provide the data as required by the agreement which their government signed. The solution is entirely in their hands.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Brexit got done

UK provided the requirements for getting back a fishing license well after the agreement was signed (which proves again that politicians are not able to think before signing).

And it didn't include some type of documents that the French could have provided, hence the current issue with people that can prove they fished some species only present in UK waters, based on the sales documents...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Brexit got done

Why would you call the NI Protocol "a clusterfart"?

The Northern Ireland Protocol was approved by both the UK and the Northern Irish parliaments with overwhelming support. There have been some teething issues but the majority of the Northern Irish people now say the Protocol is working well.

And it is working remarkably well. Northern Ireland has enjoyed something it hasn't enjoyed since it was founded a century ago, being the UK's fastest growing region: "Northern Ireland economy has outperformed rest of UK, ONS figures show". Some businesses have had to adjust their operations but that was to be expected and relatively minor in the grand scheme of Brexit related changes.

There are some fringe groups in Northern Ireland and England that have ideological objections and kick up a fuss but on the whole it's popular and working well. It's the will of the people, it's done, move on.

[Lotaresco]

Re: Brexit got done

"And it is working remarkably well. Northern Ireland has enjoyed something it hasn't enjoyed since it was founded a century ago, being the UK's fastest growing region"

Wait! What is that you said? That NI is the fastest growing region in the UK because it has remained inside the EU Customs Union? That NI's interests are best served by being unified with the Republic of Ireland? That's a remarkable moment of scales falling from the eyes, isn't it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Brexit got done

"Alas the only solution to these problems is to leave it a few years waiting for the oldest of them to die off. They refuse to accept they were and remain wrong, so our shit situation will persist until their numbers are depleted. Very sad. :-("

COVID probably helped speed things up a little though it's not necessarily the Brexit voter I blame. Rather the high functioning Brexopaths who foisted Brexit on us and now expect people who want little to do with it or them to help make it work. The Brexit voters were mostly people who voted with hearts, not heads.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Brexit got done

"Some Brits have this tendency of proudly claiming they are the fifth greatest in the world,"

Fifth greatest? Our problem is our Glorious Leader claiming us to be the greatest, not fifth greatest, at all sorts of things about which he hasn't a clue.

[Justthefacts]

Re: Brexit got done

Which are in fact the top 3 nations in the world then?

I think we all know (and agreed the U.K. no longer holds that spot), but I just want to hear you say it.

Pretty please ;)

[Lars]

Re: Brexit got done

@Justthefacts

"Which are in fact the top 3 nations in the world then?".

Lets try Real GDP (purchasing power parity) (2020), for a change.

"GDP (purchasing power parity) compares the gross domestic product (GDP) or value of all final goods and services produced within a nation in a given year. A nation's GDP at purchasing power parity (PPP) exchange rates is the sum value of all goods and services produced in the country valued at prices prevailing in the United States."

1. China

2. United States

3. India

4. Japan

5. Germany

6. Russia

7. Indonesia

8. Brazil

9. France

10. United Kingdom

11. Turkey

12. Italy

https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/real-gdp-purchasing-power-parity/country-comparison/

[codejunky]

Re: Brexit got done

@Lars

"Lets try Real GDP (purchasing power parity) (2020), for a change."

Damn brexit must have been amazing! For 2022-

United States (GDP: 20.49 trillion)

China (GDP: 13.4 trillion)

Japan: (GDP: 4.97 trillion)

Germany: (GDP: 4.00 trillion)

United Kingdom: (GDP: 2.83 trillion)

As these agree-

https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-gdp

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?most_recent_value_desc=true

https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/

[Lars]

Re: Brexit got done

@codejunky

I think you should have mentioned you use nominal GDP, using ppp and your information corresponds with my list using ppp.

The numbers for 2021 are the one of interest today.

[codejunky]

Re: Brexit got done

"I think you should have mentioned you use nominal GDP, using ppp and your information corresponds with my list using ppp."

Good catch. So the UK has gone up from 10th to 9th by ppp swapping with France. Not bad out of the entire world.

[Chris G]

Re: Brexit got done

@ Lars and phil o sophical.......

Whoooosh!

[Xalran]

Re: Brexit got done

What Brexiters wanted was to be part of the EU while not being part of it...

Like Switzerland and Norway

The later having been invited to join several time and always said no, but over 40+ years both countries have made trade agreements and agreements on many other topics that gives them access to lots of the EU stuff.

Now tghe UK has to build that 40+ years of various agreements... Good Luck, UK wanted to leave, now UK has to fully assume the consequences, ALL the consequences of leaving the EU.

[Lotaresco]

Re: Brexit got done

"Like Switzerland and Norway The later having been invited to join several time and always said no"

Norway applied to join the European Communities in 1973 (ie not "invited") but the country rejected membership in a referendum. Despite this, both Norway and Switzerland are within EFTA and within Schengen. Both implement EU directives. The UK had the options of remaining in the customs union, joining EFTA, joining Schengen. The current government's haste and xenophobia got us into the current mess on the promises of unicorns and cake for all.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Brexit got done

The UK did NOT have the option of joining EFTA. Norway is EFTA's biggest member, and made it quite clear that UK membership post-Brexit was not an option. That would have completely changed the EFTA dynamic in a way that would have sidelined the much smaller Norway.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Brexit got done

"Norway is EFTA's biggest member, and made it quite clear that UK membership post-Brexit was not an option"

That's how you start any negotiation. If everyone gives up as easily as you Brexit will be a total failure.

The only purpose of EFTA is for non-members to access the single market so the suggestion that Norway has something to lose makes no sense.

[Lars]

Re: Brexit got done

"the suggestion that Norway has something to lose makes no sense."

I suppose that behind that suggestion, that did not come from Norway, was the feeling that a big bully with great difficulties in sticking to its agreements might not be interesting to the Norwegians.

Still EFTA was never a choice due to the single market and more.

Norway was just one of Farage's snake oil salesman tricks.

[Alan Brown]

Re: Brexit got done

Especially given that Britain WAS an EFTA member and left to join the EEC(*), tossing the other members under a bus as it did so

(*) Britain _CREATED_ EFTA as a rival to the EEC, then when it didn't work out the way it wanted, abandoned it. The remaining members have a right to feel peeved

[Lars]

Re: Brexit got done

@Alan Brown

To be a bit more accurate:

"On 12 January 1960, the Treaty on the European Free Trade Association was initiated in the Golden Hall of the Stockholm City Hall.

The founding members of the EFTA were: Austria, Denmark, Norway, Portugal, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom. During the 1960s, these countries were often referred to as the "Outer Seven", as opposed to the Inner Six of the then European Economic Community (EEC).".

[NerryTutkins]

Re: Brexit got done

The UK could have had a single market deal of its own. That was always on the table from the EU side. I would mean no NI border issue, so no NI protocol. It would also have avoided customs checks between the UK and France, avoiding the motorway queues of trucks we have now, plus all the time-consuming paperwork.

The UK would not accept the single market principles, in particular freedom of movement, so would neither have joined EFTA nor accepted a single market deal. That was why the promised cake did not materialize. Because the UK government decided that "leave" had made a bunch of promises, but as "remain" said, they could not have single market access and end EU immigration as they claimed. They chose to pander to the anti-immigrant right, rather than the pro-business centre, and the rest is history.

In 5 or 10 years, once it is clear that Brexit cannot be made to work, and that the growth and trade friction cannot be offset by trade deals outside of the EU, the UK will eventually sign a single market deal, and be bound by the rules. There is no other reasonable choice from an economic standpoint, and the benefit after several years of trade disruption will be an easy win for whichever party eats humble pie and admits that the UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK.

[codejunky]

Re: Brexit got done

@NerryTutkins

"the UK will eventually sign a single market deal, and be bound by the rules. There is no other reasonable choice from an economic standpoint"

You are kidding? A case to remain couldnt be made when we had opt outs such as not joining the abysmal currency. The idea a case could be made to surrender to the EU in full is a joke. Lets put the economic in perspective, the EU keeps threatening to cut itself off from the #1 global financial centre of Europe which is #2 in the world but keeps putting it off because it will again plunge the Eurozone into another economic crisis.

A large chunk of the EU (the EZ) is economically dependent on a single city in England. The idea that the key to the UK's success is to be in a falling portion of the worlds wealth is an odd idea. When globalisation and trade has reduced global absolute poverty faster than any time in history it is odd to desire a protectionist block. And I have yet to hear how putting a crap government over our government can improve anything.