back to article Rolls-Royce consortium shopping for factory sites to build mini-nuclear reactors

UK aerospace and engineering giant Rolls-Royce is on the hunt for sites for its much-touted small nuclear reactors, which received a £210m grant from the UK government last year. A consortium of BNF Resources UK Ltd, Exelon Generation Ltd, and Roll-Royce Group is set to invest £195m roughly over three years, qualifying it for …

        1. Steve Foster
          Mushroom

          Re: Money for old rope

          You think we're willing to start WW3 over Ukraine?

          And if so, surely they could launch their missiles just as effectively from Faslane as they could from the Black Sea...

          (obvious choice of icon!)

          1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

            Re: Money for old rope

            You think we're willing to start WW3 over Ukraine?

            Desperate times calls for desperate action. Boris would no doubt welcome the distraction potential - the war of words has begun.

            1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

              Re: Money for old rope

              Boris would no doubt welcome the distraction potential

              Well - it worked for Maggie. But then, she had several things that Boris doesn't - competence, morals (of a sort), ability to not tell lies etc etc..

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Money for old rope

                I think even Maggie had the sense not to pull the bears tail too hard in their own back yard.

          2. TheMeerkat

            Re: Money for old rope

            Have not we studied at school how the government was not prepared to go to war with Germany because of Sudetenland?

        2. Vometia has insomnia. Again. Silver badge

          Re: Money for old rope

          tbf the Russians understand the importance of tea. I'm sure they'd do the gentlemanly thing and hold off until everyone's kettle has boiled.

          1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
            Alert

            Re: Money for old rope

            IIRC, in Asterix in Britain - the natives would stop fighting the Romans to break for Tea

      1. Ken G Silver badge
        Thumb Down

        Re: Money for old rope

        Scotland is almost completely self sufficient for green energy. Try Canary Wharf.

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: Money for old rope

          Scotland is almost completely self sufficient for green energy

          Only when you fiddle the figures, as Sturgeon & the SNP propaganda does.

          That statement is based on the idea that (in 2020) Scotland produced 32TWh of renewable electricity, and consumed 33TWh of electricity and therefore "almost all Scotland's electricity comes from renewables". In reality, renewable energy production is dependent on weather, and the supply/demand periods don't align.

          In 2020, Scotland exported over 13TWh of renewable electricity at some times, and used over 14TWh of non-renewable at other times. Over the course of a year only about 55% of Scotland's electricity comes from Scottish renewables (the remaining 45% is from nuclear, gas & oil), a far cry from "self-sufficient".

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Money for old rope

            I think you need some remedial arithmetic lessons. There's little difference in quantity between 32 and 33.

            Your numbers say Scotland produced 32TWh of renewable electricity and consumed 33TWh of electricity in 2020. So supply and demand are almost equal. In other words, total renewable electricity generation in Scotland pretty much matches the nation's total electricity consumption.

            It's true the supply and demand periods don't always align. This is no big deal. Power companies deal with this all the time. It's a basic principle of the electricity business: you supply me with your extra power when I need it and I'll reciprocate when I've got extra that you need.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Money for old rope

              "I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine" is the very opposite of self-sufficiency.

            2. LybsterRoy Silver badge

              Re: Money for old rope

              Yes but I may want to run my TV when the windmills aren't a turning. A sight I quite often see.

              The other great trick is to quote theoretical output not actual.

              1. tiggity Silver badge

                Re: Money for old rope

                @LybsterRoy

                Its not all about "windmills" - about 1/5 of the Scottish renewables from hydro on lots of rivers, each one not generating a huge amount (a few mega Watts) , but will always be generating power (bar mechanical breakdown) so a "reliable" renewable compared to wind, solar etc.

                We will always have a few days of low/no wind in the UK so wind alone will never be a panacea, so a good mix of renewables is vital.

                As for nuclear, I don't think that many people are thinking "mushroom cloud imminent", more likely to be concerned about risk of local "leaks" and the issue of what happens to all the waste long term as that's the issue that keeps getting kicked into the long grass. The botched cover ups / lack of honesty about nuclear incidents in the UK has been counter productive, fessing up to fuckups would have been better, the whole lie to the public stance actively encouraged more distrust of nuclear IMHO.

                Ironically I grew up in a mining area and back then virtually all the homes were heated by coal (until it was made a smokeless zone) - and so would have been exposed to more radioactivity from coal combustion than if I lived near a reactor (especially as I often got the job of clearing the ash from the grate and throwing it in the bin, where the radioactive residues would be nicely concentrated)

                1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                  Re: Money for old rope

                  As for nuclear, I don't think that many people are thinking "mushroom cloud imminent"

                  I'm not sure everyone is capable of making that distinction. If they were we probably wouldn't also have anti-vaxxers, Ng phone mast arsonists etc. Never under-estimate the technical ignorance of a Grauniad reader Sun reader substantial chunk of the UK population.

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Money for old rope

              Thats not the definition of self sufficient.

            4. fg_swe Bronze badge

              Greeny LIES

              "It's true the supply and demand periods don't always align. This is no big deal. Power companies deal with this all the time."

              Germany already has this problem. It is "handled" by depending on France, Poland, Czech Republic, Austria and Switzerland to supply and consume large amounts of electricity to/from Germany.

              In other words, wind+solar need 100% backup in the form of coal, methane, Uranium, Plutonium (the Russians currently burn some of that) and Thorium.

              Prices at the spot market now approach 100cent/kWh. Rail cargo transport ceases to be possible at this price point.

              The Greenies (rooted in Maoism) are ideologues and liars, masters of both.

        2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

          Re: Money for old rope

          Just round the corner from Canary Wharf is a brown field site in need of development. Just needs planning permission. With the government keen to promote the adoption of these power sources, it shouldn't be a problem. Just needs a word in the right ears.

          https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/24/robert-jenrick-planning-row-the-key-questions-answered

        3. NeilPost

          Re: Money for old rope

          The locals would be more than happy to have it on the site of the decommissioned Chapelcross Magnox nuclear power station… or (much irony) Dounreay ‘being decommissioned’ former *Nuclear Power Development Site* or the shutdown on 7-Jan-22 Hunterston AGR nuclear power station.

          The Scottish government… not so much.

        4. LybsterRoy Silver badge

          Re: Money for old rope

          I'm assuming the thumbs down icon indicates sarcasm. If not please convert my upvote to as many downvotes as there are wind turbines in Caithness!

    1. Alex Stuart

      Re: Money for old rope

      Quite.

      I ask the same question of why building new 'normal' size nukes is seemingly such a difficult, time-consuming and hugely expensive task, despite the world having decades of experience building them already - see EDF and Hinkley, etc.

      It seems like as time goes by, we* get progressively worse** at building things. Houses, railways, reactors and so on.

      * - The UK, or at least England

      ** - worse meaning they are either of worse quality, or take far more money and time to achieve than before. For example, we spend a lot more money per km of railway than other countries with comparable geographical constraints. And, er, HS2...

      1. Dave 15

        Re: Money for old rope

        Because we don't design and build we just ask foreigners to do it. Those cheap and nasty Chinese toys that break as you unpack them... What makes you think a Chinese reactor or reactor component would be any better? Substandard crud

        1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

          Re: Money for old rope

          "Good or cheap" is an adage that applies to Chinese products as much as anyone else's. I'd also point out that they have 50 nuclear reactors online and so far none has gone bang.

          Not that I'm pro-China, but you're a little naive if you think one billion people who manufacture most of the worlds stuff somehow still haven't figured out how to do it properly. Although I do agree with your other point that we outsource everything but continue to be surprised when we wind up having no control over the process.

          1. Wellyboot Silver badge

            Re: Money for old rope

            If you don't go through some QC iterations before committing to full production then expect tat to arrive by the boatload, engineering/build quality is just another expense for beancounters.

            Chinese companies will build at the quality level you're willing to pay for.

          2. pavel.petrman

            Re: one billion people who manufacture most of the worlds stuff

            Good point here. China actually built an interesting transfer policy around it. Simply said, China doesn't allow dumb manufacturing for foreigners anymore, nor does it allow "dumb" installations on its soil by foreign compaies. Ten years ago, Daimler would build their own factory in China, just like they do in Mexico or Spain, German companies would design, build and commission the factory, locals would be allowed in as workers. Not anymore. Everything must be done in partnership with local companies, including design and equipment sourcing. It happened quite recently for general public to notice in full, but one already sees local jet airliners supplementing the huge fleets of Boeings and Airbuses, and, to the point, nuclear power plants being built by local consortia with technology and knowledge transfer being an important part of the deals.

            1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

              Re: one billion people who manufacture most of the worlds stuff

              Ironically this is the exact opposite of how China does infrastructure projects in Africa, so I'm told. They turn up with the entire workforce and don't hire locally at all, which is a marked change to how it used to be done with European firms.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: one billion people who manufacture most of the worlds stuff

                Technically I don't think the Europeans "hired" their workers, just captured them.

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Money for old rope

          "Because we don't design and build we just ask foreigners to do it."

          It's actually a bit worse. It's because we gave up doing that. OK, a lot worse.

        3. herman

          Re: Money for old rope

          Chinese nuclear manual is to be helping and not to be laughful at.

          1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
            Mushroom

            Re: Money for old rope

            Read The Fearful Manual

            Icon - You were only supposed to blow the bloody vents, not blow up the whole bloody power station

      2. keith_w

        Re: Money for old rope

        Same in Ontario... it costs 2-3x the original suggested cost and takes twice as long (if they are quick about it.)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Money for old rope

          That "2-3 times the cost" is standard government operating procedure. If they told the House of Parliament what it would really cost for 95% of government programs, they wouldn't be started.

          Besides, you can blame that on a mentality that always awards contracts to the lowest bidder. In all industries, that has led to an SOP of underbidding to get the job, and billing "extra" later for "upgrades" and "changes."

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Money for old rope

            House of Parliament? They can't even tell the cabinet that.

      3. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Money for old rope

        >For example, we spend a lot more money per km of railway than other countries with comparable geographical constraints

        Not quite the same.

        France = monsieur farmer would you like more money to turn your land into a TGV line than you currently get from the Eu for not farming it ? Mais Oui !

        Japan = there is an uninhabited mountain range between two major cities. Get tunnelling. Hai

        China = there is nobody living in the flat farmland between these two cities. Excuse me I live here ! (sound of gunshot off screen) There is nobody living in the flat farmland between these two cities

        UK = The land between these 2 cities goes through 1000s of privately owned Englishmen's suburban castles, each of which for some reason is worth £1M. And the farmland is all owned by somebody who lives in an actual castle and is in the House of Lords. And there is a rare toad somewhere outside Birmingham so the line will have to go via Lands End.

        1. Alex Stuart

          Re: Money for old rope

          Ha - love it.

          I still think we'd be worse off even without that factor. Too much red tape and a government hell-bent on outsourcing everything and losing money hand-over-fist in the process.

          "What's that <serco/deloitte/acme>, you want two billion pounds to sit and think about the idea for a few years? Don't be shy, here's three!"

          1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

            Re: Money for old rope

            About £900,000 was spent on a feasibility study for Boris' hair brained bridge between NI and Scotland.

            Over £40 million on planning and design for his garden bridge over the Thames.

            Lots of snoughts to feed

            1. R Soul Silver badge

              Re: Money for old rope

              Of course! How else do you think these companies can afford to pay backhanders - sorry lucrative directorships and consultancy contracts - to our politicians/generals/permanent secretaries once they leave office?

              1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                Re: Money for old rope

                Or wallpaper while they're sill in office.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Money for old rope

              Perhaps he should follow Corbyn's example and suggest planting magic money trees in the garden of number 10. Would remove the party space as well!

              1. Andrew Alan McKenzie

                Re: Money for old rope

                Whilst Corbyn was/is a prat, the magic money trees are thoroughly Tory. Amber Rudd and Teresa May suggested Jeremy wanted one and that they didn't exist, but actually it turned out they were growing in the Number 10 garden all along, just no one had noticed because they were behind the glass recycling bins.

      4. eldakka

        Re: Money for old rope

        > I ask the same question of why building new 'normal' size nukes is seemingly such a difficult, time-consuming and hugely expensive task, despite the world having decades of experience building them already - see EDF and Hinkley, etc.

        One reason (amongst many) is alluded to in the article:

        "prefabricated units of SMRs can be manufactured and then shipped and installed on-site, making them more affordable to build than large power reactors, which are often custom-designed for a particular location, sometimes leading to construction delays.
        Even though a series of reactors may be built to "Reactor Type X" plan, each individual reactor is essentially custom hand-built on site. As well as the expense in hand-building these things, since they are each effectively a custom unit, each one has to be certified separately that it is actually built to the common plan for Type X, and that any deviations are verified, and so on. This makes them incredibly expensive individually, as you need skilled (nuclear reactor skilled) workers on site, custom fabrications, running into unexpected issues which leads to delays which means more costs, the potential for cost blowouts goes on and on. Big-bang custom software project billion-dollar blowouts have nothing on nuclear reactor delays and blowouts.

        So instead of hand-building a custom 3600MW reactor on site, the idea is to mass-produce smaller reactors, so you can plonk 12 of these mass-produced, identical, needing only quality-control-type testing/certification that any mass-produced but complex machine is, down on the same site to create your 3600MW plant. And since you have 12 of them, they can be independantly controlled, maintained, refueled/replaced without taking down the entire 3500MW reactor. They can also be expanded or decommissioned more gradually. Add another 300MW reactor if want to make the site provide more power, take them out one-by-one to decommission them. Build smaller sites so you don't need a single 3600MW plant. Able to ship them to remote sites (e.g. Shetlands, Fiji, middle of Amazon) to establish smaller, local power infrastructure without having to run submarine/overland transmission infrastructure, etc.

        If you are going to go nuclear for low-emissions power (as opposed to solar/wind/hydro/geothermal etc.) then SMRs seem a better way to do it.

        1. Vometia has insomnia. Again. Silver badge

          Re: Money for old rope

          Reactors described along the same lines as VaxClusters: now I understand...

          1. eldakka
            Happy

            Re: Money for old rope

            Using a Beowulf cluster of commodity hardware instead of a custom ASICs and processors, one-off hand-built supercomputer.

          2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
            Alert

            Re: Money for old rope

            Now we need an enterprising Eben Upton like person to come up with the Raspberry Pi of Nukes

    2. fg_swe Bronze badge

      Economics of Reactor R&D

      210 Million Pounds are a tiny amount of money compared to what is wasted on r0tten bankers, illegal wars and dangerous medical schemes.

      Also, just adapting a uboat reactor to civilian use will cost more than 210 millions. All of the technology must be tested, certified, reviewed and at least one protoype must be run for three years or so.

      Developing a new car model costs several billion euros these days. Based on evolving a previous car model. The safety and political implications of a rott3n car model are much smaller than a r0tt3n reactor model.

      Due to the strategic nature of energy supply and the lack of national methane supplies in many European nations, governments must step in and provide the necessary funding and organization, Airbus-style. The alternative is to be dependent on foreign powers who might be friendly or not. Some of these powers can point dangerous weapons and armies of soldiers at you, all while supplying critical methane.

      Kinda problematic, isn't it ?

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Tough to get approval for anything "nuclear" in this day and age. The protestors show up before they even know what you're trying to do; they just heard a rumor of "nukes involved." :(

    1. Korev Silver badge
      Boffin

      That's why lab chemists do NMR (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance) spectroscopy on their molecules but when the same technology is scaled to human size they call it MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) to avoid scaring people...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        It was called NMR imaging when I were a lad. It's only after ballsups like Sellafield, 3Mile Island and Chernobyl that they started dropping "Nuclear" and "Radiation" off names.

        1. adam 40 Silver badge

          Thanks!

          Previously, the reasons were unclear.

        2. Dante Alighieri
          Boffin

          Turf War

          The Nuclear Medicine speciality (uses isoposeotopes) wanted to claim the new imaging technology from the Radiology Departments to expand their influence.

          Training is very different and does not include a lot of crossectional anatomy for Nuc Med. It didn't fly.

          Another element as above was not scaring the horses

          DoI : dual trained

        3. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Was once explaining to a visiting American how the NMR lab in the chemistry dept was being moved and renamed the MRI lab. To 'I quote' avoid the 'N' word.

          He seemed very confused about why we were mentioning the 'N' word. I was even more confused about why he was confused.

          This was many years ago before twitter......

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