back to article Turns out humans are leading AI systems astray because we can't agree on labeling

Top datasets used to train AI models and benchmark how the technology has progressed over time are riddled with labeling errors, a study shows. Data is a vital resource in teaching machines how to complete specific tasks, whether that's identifying different species of plants or automatically generating captions. Most neural …

    1. DS999 Silver badge

      Re: And of course people are bloody minded ...

      As I just confessed above before seeing this post lol!

      1. jake Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: And of course people are bloody minded ...

        :-)

        It's Friday. Have a beer.

    2. Tom 7

      Re: And of course people are bloody minded ...

      Asimov had this covered - his computers took this into account. Given left pondians still have trouble with UK sarc I guess he was a bit ahead of his time or perhaps we need a new Intelligence definition.

  1. ecofeco Silver badge

    I think I see the problem

    This work is often outsourced work to services like Amazon Mechanical Turk, where workers are paid the square root of sod all to sift through the data piece by piece,

    You get what you pay for. GIGO!

    1. doublelayer Silver badge

      Re: I think I see the problem

      Yes. Mechanical Turk pays the participants so little that they have a lot of data pollution problems. Also, they have the problem that the people doing the work are either bored people who will give up in fifteen minutes or people who really don't have better ways to get money, so you can't expect consistency or strict attention to detail.

      It's along the lines of all those studies they do at universities where students are paid to participate in research with an amount of money which could be used in a vending machine in 1995. Especially the economics studies which effectively boil down to "Would you take this action if we cut your meaningless money to even more meaningless money?". I participated in a few research programs while studying, but always because I was bored and didn't mind wasting a few minutes. I did actual work to earn money.

      1. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: I think I see the problem

        Also, they have the problem that the people doing the work are either bored people who will give up in fifteen minutes or people who really don't have better ways to get money, so you can't expect consistency or strict attention to detail.

        Long before the computer age I had a job with a mail order company.Our work was filng little slips of paper - coupons or something- with people's name and address they'd sent in. These had to be packed really tightly into stiff plastic wallets in alphabetical order. It was tedious and painful, the plastic would cut into your fingers and forcing the paper apart to insert the new slip was really difficult. None of us had been there long. And it was obvious why. The wallets were a mess. Sections would be in order, then they'd be random. As a new bunch of underlings were recruited, got bored and were fired. As we were.

        The crap pay and the mean fisted decision to force as many slips as possible into the envelopes as tightly as possible meant that the filing system was close to useless..

        The spirit of those days (early 80s?- the Woolworth's fire happened across the road while I was there) apparently lives on. And since there is a phrase "Spoiling the ship for a happ'orth of tar" it seems to go back a long way before that too.

      2. Tom 7

        Re: I think I see the problem

        Economic studies in universities are generally there to confirm a certain view of economics and only that view is correct. Its a view that wont pay for the truth.

        1. doublelayer Silver badge

          Re: I think I see the problem

          If that's the case, they're not very good at their job. Most of the economics studies involving meaningless money contradict many other theories. Behavioral economics really likes these. Whether that's because the previous theories were wrong (probably), because people act different when they actually care about incentives (probably) or because the researcher is deliberately messing with the results (probably not), they don't tend to be blatantly confirmatory.

    2. H in The Hague

      Re: I think I see the problem

      "You get what you pay for. GIGO!"

      Yup.

      There's currently a project commissioning human translators to translate a fairly large amount of text, for use as input for a Machine Translation system. Not a bad idea, but there are some issues.

      Offering 1/2 to 1/3 of the going rate probably doesn't help attracting competent translators. Asking the translators to provide two alternative translations isn't a bad idea. However, that fails when you have to translate the Dutch 'Het gras is groen' into English, as 'The grass is green' is essentially the only sensible translation. An alternative translation would simply add misleading input. Finally, all the sentences to be translated for this project are completely unconnected from each other. That's a major issue, as anyone who's done more than a day or two of translating will tell you that 'context is everything'.

  2. Blofeld's Cat
    Coat

    So ...

    Everything is fine until your self-driving car spots someone carrying a basket of balls across a five-way intersection ...

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: So ...

      ... and has to pick between running over them, or the crocodile in the next lane, doing a fair approximation of a lightbulb.

  3. CrackedNoggin Bronze badge

    "One picture is worth 1000 words" - not just ONE WORD dummies!

    FAIL

  4. T. F. M. Reader

    Does anyone know...

    ...what happens to a British-trained AI-driven car when it crosses the Channel? And what happens when it crosses back a month later?

    Just curious because it's not always trivial for humans.

    1. sad_loser

      Re: Does anyone know...

      GPS means it is location-aware, so just switches to using the horn instead of indicating. Problem solved.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Does anyone know...

        Would it think it was tomorrow, moving East of Greenwich?

        (I've seen worse programming errors ... )

        1. Primus Secundus Tertius

          Re: Does anyone know...

          I once saw an aeroplane system 'leap' from Cologne to Leipzig. A bit embarrassing for an RAF plane to suddenly be over East Germany.

      2. katrinab Silver badge
        Unhappy

        Re: Does anyone know...

        But would the British-trained car have microphones to hear the horn blasts emitted by others, and know how to interpret them?

        1. Rich 11

          Re: Does anyone know...

          And would it have two fingers to stick up in response?

    2. katrinab Silver badge
      Meh

      Re: Does anyone know...

      Or even if it crosses the border into Scotland?

      In Scotland you sometimes see a (70) speed limit sign in situations where you would see a ( / ) sign in England. But ( / ) signs do exist in Scotland.

      1. Dave559 Silver badge

        Re: Does anyone know...

        Different Road Traffic Acts in England than in Scotland. As far as I know, "Special Roads" in Scotland (namely, motorways and some others under similar special legislation (with restrictions on what sort of vehicles can use them) such as the Edinburgh city bypass) have to show the "70" sign instead of the "national speed limit applies" sign. Exactly why this bit of signage hyper-precision exists, I don't know, but the folks at SABRE and the like probably do…

  5. Gomez Adams

    I am gob-smacked that labellers are allowed to know what other labellers are identifying objects as while doing their job! :o

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Maybe they don't. Maybe they just click on something until its accepted.

    2. jake Silver badge

      Why can't people ...

      ... stop putting labels on things and just accept them as they are?

      1. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: Why can't people ...

        Because the labels are how we a) communicate shared concepts and b) store them for recollection.

        Think compression alogorithms

  6. analyzer

    AI in everything is the problem

    Current AI is just pattern recognition on steroids, there is still no real intelligence in any AI system. The single word tagging of pictures has been known to be suboptimal for a long time now and yet it is still done. If there was any of the I in AI then multiple word tags should not be an issue as it should be capable of recognition of multiple items in one picture.

    Additionally, and I can't find the fine article that was in this exalted place, you can carry a tag around with you and be misidentified as the tag because the AI 'learns' the tag as well as the picture.

    Certainly artificial, definitely not yet intelligent.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: AI in everything is the problem

      I think you might need an apple iPad

    2. veti Silver badge

      Re: AI in everything is the problem

      Well, if only we could agree on a (non-circular) definition of "intelligence", that would be a step in the right direction. Until then, I don't see how we can hope to get anywhere.

      Notice how no-one talks about the Turing test any more? That's because it was passed, and so everyone promptly decided "oh no, that's not intelligence after all". As long as we're allowed to keep moving the goalposts like that, they're not going to make it.

      1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        Re: AI in everything is the problem

        "Notice how no-one talks about the Turing test any more? That's because it was passed, ..."

        It was? When? How? Who? I've never seen any computer system get anywhere close. Come to that, I've seen *people* fail it (usually working in institutions as customer-facing staff and following rule sets, to be fair). Or did they re-define Turing test, so that I'm not allowed to ask questions that any 5-year-old could answer but that fall outside the computer's domain of expertise? (For example, does this picture show baseballs or a bucket? Obviously a 5-year-old could answer that, but apparently an AI researcher can't.)

        1. doublelayer Silver badge

          Re: AI in everything is the problem

          It's unclear. People like to hold Turing test challenges, and programs in those challenges have been ruled human before. That might not be a great basis to declare the test passed, but it is what the test specifies. It also depends a lot on what we want them to do. The original Turing test didn't include sending images to the other party, therefore not requiring the AIs to see. Also, a program trying to pass the Turing test, because it sends back text, has the ability to say "both" where the programs here which are just identifying things have to pick a single one.

          In my opinion, the Turing test is a rough test that is likely to have too much uncertainty to prove intelligence. There were probably a lot of people who liked to talk about it back when it seemed impossible, but now they're pointing out defficiencies in the concept. The only problem is that a lot of people attack anything termed AI without even trying to define what they think AI is, or provide an unrealistic explanation which means something is only AI if it acts entirely human and attained sapience itself without ever being programmed.

    3. C.Carr

      Re: AI in everything is the problem

      To state the obvious, the labels need to consist in more than their complex relationships with other mere labels. The actual things need to be represented by sensory data, and the AI system needs to be located, discretely, in 3D space --- that is, if we want a system to actually *know* what things are.

  7. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

    Reminds me of...

    Google bombing.

  8. steelpillow Silver badge
    Coat

    Simples

    All we need is an AI that translates between AI data labelling languages.

  9. iron Silver badge

    I do hope that somewhere in ImageNet thereis a picture of a banana that has been labelled "female aardvark."

    1. Mark192

      My local Tesco occasionally has the bananas mislabelled as "small, off-duty Czechoslovakian traffic wardens".

      Serves them right for leaving the label maker out ;)

      1. jake Silver badge

        The Petaluma (California) Whole Foods sometimes has ...

        ... lychee labeled as Hedgehog Eggs. Down the street and around the corner, the local Lola Market has occasionally had their Spiked Choyote (Sechium edule) relabeled as Porcupine Eggs. Given their proximity, I suspect the joker is the same person at both stores. No, it's not me.

        1. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

          Re: Hedgehog Eggs

          In the UK we had Hedgehog Crisps which caused the Advertising Standards Authority some headaches.

          1. keith_w

            Re: Hedgehog Eggs

            Are they related to Spring Surprise Chocolates?

      2. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

        Re: "small, off-duty Czechoslovakian traffic wardens".

        I learn something new every day from this site - much of which has nothing to do with technology.

        ===

        Warhol would have run rings around AI with his placement of everyday objects as art. Bananas reminds me of Nico's distinctive vocals...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkDJcUCyjCU

      3. Eclectic Man Silver badge
        Joke

        Small off duty ...

        Mark192: bananas mislabelled as "small, off-duty Czechoslovakian traffic wardens".

        That is ridiculous, don't they know that the Czech republic and Slovakia split apart in 1993?

        https://kafkadesk.org/2018/10/30/why-did-czechoslovakia-break-up/

        "On January 1, 1993, Czechoslovakia split into two independent states, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, in what is now known as the “Velvet divorce” (in a reference to the Velvet revolution) due to its peaceful and negotiated nature."

        1. StuartMcL

          Re: Small off duty ...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB-NnVpvQ78

        2. Dave559 Silver badge

          Re: Small off duty ...

          "And while Slovak nationalism sentiment strived for more autonomy, Czech nationalism embraced Czechoslovakism, mainly due to their privileged position within the federation."

          -- https://kafkadesk.org/2018/10/30/why-did-czechoslovakia-break-up/

          As the article itself alludes to, I'm sure we can all think of certain other multi-ethnic countries where similar feelings apply…

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      It'd be wrong though. Clearly it's the Bolivian navy on manoeuvres in the South Pacific.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bias is endemic to society, right down to the very roots of the evolution of the languages we use. Cultural biases of thousands of years are embedded in every culture on the planet, and it results in biases in the data sets, even if they are "correctly" labelled. Prejudices in society that lead to fewer members of a minority being successful in particular fields leads the machines to conclude that people of such background are *unlikely* to be qualified, rather than that they are under-represented.

    It is a thorny issue, and one that isn't easily solved, because it begins to tread on concepts of morality and justice in society, and the one thing we can all agree on is that no one agrees on those subjects.

    1. EarthDog

      No one mentioned it but how are idioms handled? They are probably the hardest things to translate.

      1. doublelayer Silver badge

        With automatic translation software, it either just looks at the words and tries to do them literally or it finds an idiom in a big dictionary. When I did some translation, I would always replace them with factual statements. It had less flavor, but at least I knew the reader would understand it without taking the risk that the closest idiom I could come up with was regional. Then again, I was not a professional translator, just a person who spoke multiple languages and hadfriends who didn't.

    2. stiine Silver badge

      I have to disagree, just to prove your point. Please take no offence, or take offence, I don't care.

  11. sketharaman

    GIGO

    In short, AI suffers from GIGO. zzzzz.

  12. EarthDog

    GIGO

    Garbage In Garbage Out. A saying as old as computing. When I was spending a large amount of time merging data from other sources into the databases of a company I was working for I made sure my juniors and the SMEs spent a bit of effort vetting those data. All our data had to be defensible in court. It is the cavalier attitude to data and assumption all data are perfect which caused to avoid those areas. There are no standards of quality though they wouldn't be hard to to develop.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: GIGO

      "Garbage In Garbage Out. A saying as old as computing."

      Try saying that to someone in the bulk recycling business :-)

  13. Skiron

    So why isn't there an AI program somewhere that can actually label the photograph itself? 'Cos AI isn't AI really, it's what the programmers tell it to do. As stated above, GIGO and it always will be until a 'machine' is actually cognitive.

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