back to article Botched Microsoft update knocks Windows 8, 10 PCs offline – regardless of ISP

A broken software update for Windows 8 and 10 is knackering internet connectivity for users of several ISPs in the UK, Europe and quite likely beyond. Virgin Media in Blighty is the latest provider to confirm the dodgy code is knocking a number of its customers offline. Proximus in Belgium also says a Windows 10 update is …

        1. david 12

          Re: Only Britain? Short answer: No.

          "A Microsoft account and internet access" are required by Win10 in order for you to use your Microsoft cloud account from Win10. Since I don't do that, I don't require a Microsoft account, and unless I want to use the internet, I don't require internet access.

          It's alright though, that was intended for people who don't know what they are doing.

        2. Mark 110

          Re: Only Britain? Short answer: No.

          "Info box at the top of the page, above the results: "A Microsoft account and Internet access.""

          In my experience that's to install it, rather than use it. My laptop works fine offline.

      1. hplasm
        Windows

        Re: Only Britain? Short answer: No.

        "Can we stop this rubbish please."

        What, Windows? Fat chance.

    1. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

      Re: Only Britain? Short answer: No.

      What other branch of engineering allows so many to believe "Build Now, Plan Later" is a recipe for anything but disaster?

      Dunno about engineering, but wasn't "Act now, plan later" the theme of the-exit-that-must-not-be-named.

    2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Only Britain? Short answer: No.

      I have lost count at how many problems Microsoft's new-found love for 'agile' has spawned.

      I don't see where agile comes in all of a sudden.

      It's a standard Microsoft update.

      Only now it comes without docummentation in the middle of the night and borks you off the Internet so as the plan was to make you dependable on an Internet connection, there is some sort of weird reality collision (MEGASHRUG) and as a civilian you are a bit screwed, right.

      Anyway it was probably Putin all along, out to undermine democracy. You know it's true!

    3. Fatman
      Joke

      Re: furiously stomping on its own dick

      <quote>And it's a supreme irony that Windows 10 requires you to be online to use it and yet once again here we are watching it furiously stomping on its own cut off its dick. I have lost count at how many problems Microsoft's new-found love for 'agile' has spawned.</quote>

      There, FTFY!!!

      <quote>If computers were people we'd have convened at the Hauge by now and put Microsoft on trial for genocide.</quote> BUT, if that were to pass, who would face the firing squad??? Bill G? Ballmer? SatNad?

    4. Myvekk

      Re: Only Britain? Short answer: No.

      [quote]

      What other branch of engineering allows so many to believe "Build Now, Plan Later" is a recipe for anything but disaster?

      [/quote]

      Looked at the vehicle and roads industry lately? Initially it was built ad hoc, & later planned but added to the original layout. Just look at how the London streets run!

      Operating systems have grown in the same way. Built up layer upon layer & still having issues from the original design flaws. Same reason for the Y2k panic... "This code will be completely replaced by then!" Nope, just patched & built upon. Windows is not different, nor is Unix, iOS or Linux (which, I believe are respectively, based on it* & designed to be a free 100% compatible alternative to it).

      Then you get strange interactions between your new bit of code and something written 10 years ago, that no one remembers even existed...

      *I could be wrong, I often am. But you have to go with what you know & just note & question your assumptions as you do...

    5. Wayland Bronze badge
      Mushroom

      Re: Only Britain? Short answer: No.

      Genuine LOL. GLOL?

      "The new iThing 9000: Dance madly with us on the lip of the volcano! And everytime someone falls into the molten glory hole of terrible engineering practices, we just accept this, like it's normal or something."

      Volcano icon.

  1. Filippo

    quick fix

    It's not a UK-only problem.

    I've found that the easiest way to fix this over the phone is to hold SHIFT while doing a system shutdown. This will force a non-fast boot, which clears the issue. Not sure if the fix is permanent, though.

    1. Kiwi Silver badge
      Linux

      Re: quick fix

      Not sure if the fix is permanent, though.

      For a quicker, and much more permanent solution to your Windows networking/stability/security/privacy woes, see icon :)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: quick fix

        Agree all those woes will be fixed, but I still won't have any decent quality software to use!!

  2. Jim Willsher

    Pretty sure it has absolutely nothing to do with ISP whatsoever. My users on remote sites get their IP (or not, as the case may be!!) from our SBS2011 or 2012R2 boxes. None of our users at any of our sites get their IP from the router. So I don't see how it can relate to the router, and therefore the ISP. I think it's purely client-side (since our servers haven't been updated/bounced for a while).

    And the problem first reared on one laptop on 7th November. Nothing would get it to connect, whilst the rest of the office was happily working. Got said laptop sent to different office and it connected fine.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      funny enough we've been having random DHCP issues with *some* win10 boxes for a while. All are win10 dell OptiPlex 7040AIO or 7040 micros (both have the same Intel NIC chipset) win7 works fine. Symptoms are random but users lose there connection and when you check the machine has picked a 169.x.x.x address up, normally a ipconfig /release renew fixes it or a reboot but not always. This can happen even when the PC is well within its DHCP lease time so shouldn't even be trying to renew its IP.

      1. GrumpyKiwi

        Pretty sure that DHCP is supposed to check in with the server when the lease is 50% complete and renew. So don't trust the Server Leaser Time setting for that.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          that is true, but some of our win10 boxes have been losing their IP after as little as 1 or 2 days of an 8 day lease

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        " users lose there connection and when you check the machine has picked a 169.x.x.x address up,"

        That's an APIPA address - it's the IP range microsoft PCs give themselves if they detect a network connection, but don't get a response to a DHCP request. It was designed to allow home networks of PCs to have LAN parties back in the late 90's to get all PCs on the LAN to have a working IP address so they could connect to each others PC and play network connected games together.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Not just UK

    I work for a US ISP and can confirm we've been having this issues since last Tuesday. We've got internal alerts up for all agents who can read and every team mangler talking to their people about it.

    For us, a plain restart appears to be fixing the issue.

    1. Ben Tasker Silver badge

      Re: Not just UK

      > We've got internal alerts up for all agents who can read

      What do you get the illiterate agents to do?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Not just UK

        "What do you get the illiterate agents to do?"

        they all work for Talk Talk, explaining data breaches

      2. Curtis

        Re: Not just UK

        I believe they're functioning by someone telling them what to do behind them. (Mobile posting is hard, and I checked the anon box by mistake)

        Among the senior techs, we're not sure some of our "front line" [i]can[/i] read, at least american english.

  4. Pen-y-gors Silver badge
    Happy

    Oh goody

    I knew there was another reason for paying a fiver a month for a static IP.

    1. AndrueC Silver badge
      Boffin

      Re: Oh goody

      I knew there was another reason for paying a fiver a month for a static IP.

      That would be a WAN IP address. This issue appears to relate to DHCP which manages LAN IP addresses.

      In more detailed terms: The issue seems to relate to the way people's routers are handing out addresses to Windows 10 machines on their LAN (or the way those machines respond to that advisement). Your static IP address relates to the way the world communicates with your router over the public internet.

      1. Danny 14 Silver badge

        Re: Oh goody

        Unless he meant using the fixed ip for his PC (part of a /29?)i.e. no NAT. Shudder.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Oh goody

        To be fair, there's nothing to stop you putting your ISP router in modem mode, and using a public IP address on your PC. Bit of a strange thing to do, unless you for some reason want to use your PC as a firewall/router, but it can certainly be done.

        1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

          Re: Oh goody

          Unless the ISP has some weird point-to-point protocol that you just cannot run on your box without reverse-engineering it first out of the modem firmware. (SHUDDER)

      3. Dazed and Confused

        Re: Oh goody

        Well he could be using his fixed IP address directly on his PC. I do one some of mine.

        The issue isn't to do with the router except is as much that most people use their router as their DHCP server. But regardless of what you are using as a DHCP server W10 was knaggered it. The DHCP server is happily responding to requests and offering configs and it looks like W10 is just ignoring these responses.

  5. Frank Zuiderduin

    What is going on exactly?

    Are the DHCP servers messed up? Or the clients? Somehow the latter seems more likely, in which case it doesn't have anything to do with the ISP.

    1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

      Re: What is going on exactly?

      The ISPs generally issue the router. So if some routers contain a non-conforming server, it could be the ISP's problem.

      That said, it looks like Microsoft have screwed up. But even if Redmond are in the right, they'll have to implement the fix.

    2. DMcDonnell

      Re: What is going on exactly?

      It appears to be the DHCP client in Win 10.

      Customers with Win 10 and DHCP, as apposed to customers who use manual configuration, have been a headache. It's the ISPs and retailers who are left to pick up the pieces 'cause of Redmond's screw-up. Don't we just love he new update mechanism in Win 10? SPIT, SPUTTER, CURSE! No way in hell!

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The fix is

    Enable IPX and browse the Microsoft Network (TM) (c) 1995, so much better than the Internet.

    1. Danny 14 Silver badge

      Re: The fix is

      Perhaps the genius 2000 cards have drivers that work too. Try getting a fresh pair of terminators from the terminator robot too.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The fix is

      Damn. Should have kept the ARCnet cards & cables. And a modem :).

    3. davidp231

      Re: The fix is

      Nah, NetBEUI all the way.

    4. martin 62

      Re: The fix is

      To set your connection as metered and say bye bye to broken updates (at the cost of security i admit)

  7. nkuk

    The ever increasing cost of Free

    How long before people realise that the cost of free Windows isn't worth it. End users are now unpaid QA testers and this is only the latest in an ongoing string of borked updates.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The ever increasing cost of Free

      'How long before people realise that the cost of free Windows isn't worth it?'

      Seeing as most people weren't given an option, probably about 2 minutes after Windows 10 installed itself and rebooted!

  8. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
    Windows

    I knew

    there was a very good reason not to 'upgrade' to win10 from win7 while it was free

    However, how does the borked update affect someone who runs his virgin(spit) modem in cable mode and uses his own belkin router to connect the computers/printers/backup hard drive to each and the internet?

    1. Wayland Bronze badge

      Re: I knew

      It's a DHCP issue with Windows 8 and 10. It seems that no DHCP servers can solve the problem. It must be solved in the PC.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Seen this, lots...

    ....Started seeing it last week as well, although in the first instance there had just been a lot of work done at the customer end, so it wasn't obvious what the problem was. Looked like a CPE issue for some time. Seen this across all sorts of different devices handing out DHCP leases.

  10. Nifty Silver badge

    Nothing new?

    Especially when coming out of sleep, I've been seeing both my W10 machines lose internet connectivity. Solution has been to perform the LAN adapter reset. But I've been seeing this issue for months.

    1. Adam JC

      Re: Nothing new?

      Try disabling power management on the network adaptor, should keep it alive in sleep:

      Control Panel > Network & Sharing Centre > Local Area Connection > Properties

      'Power Management' Tab - Untick 'Allow the computer to turn off this device to save power', usually does the trick :-)

      (Sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs!)

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    loss of business

    so - if an MS update breaks your PC and those of your employees, so they can't work but you have to pay them anyway, how do you recover that cost from MS? If they're using innocent bystanders as beta testers (which they must be, anything that borks things this much would surely not pass a decent ISO-compliant software test/QA/release process), then they should be paying businesses for taking that risk ....

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: loss of business

      "If they're using innocent bystanders as beta testers"

      Dunno about beta. This sounds more like alpha.

    2. Dazed and Confused

      Re: loss of business

      You agreed to the EULA which says that you owe MS everything and they owe you nothing. If you want compensation you'd have to convince a court that the EULA wasn't a reasonable contract (it isn't) and that you basically agreed to it under duress (you don't have any choice). Then you might be able to go after the compensation you (and all the rest of us) rightly deserve. However MS will spend more of legal fees than you, so they'll win.

      1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

        Re: loss of business

        "Then you might be able to go after the compensation you (and all the rest of us) rightly deserve. However MS will spend more of legal fees than you, so they'll win."

        Government's should do this, and I'm sure they can take on MS.

        EU seems keen on doing this sort of thing.

        1. Dazed and Confused

          Re: loss of business

          Government's should do this, and I'm sure they can take on MS.

          EU seems keen on doing this sort of thing.

          Sadly they don't seem keen on wiping the whole EULA thing off the face of the planet. I really wish they would as no one else it likely to manage. Of course if the judge's PC were to bork part way through the trial it might help. If they felt the pain the rest of us do they might well reach of the black cap.

          1. Kiwi Silver badge

            Re: loss of business

            Of course if the judge's PC were to bork part way through the trial it might help.

            One of those forced reboots while the judge is busy writing the summing-up notes, with no chance to save (and auto-save files somehow wiped), and a 40min+40min shutdown and restart for "installing updates" should pretty much seal it I think.

            (Disclaimer : Never inflicted myself with the horror that is 10, so no idea how much actual warning you're given)

    3. Wayland Bronze badge
      Linux

      Re: loss of business

      Should people who don't know how to re-initialize the network adapter driver really be using computers? That's like expecting someone to drive a car who can't change a wheel.

  12. Planty Bronze badge
    Thumb Up

    Thank you Windows 10 freemium beta testers

    your free beta testing offer is ensuring nobody else suffers from these windows 10 coding error.s

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Force fed updates still a good idea Microsoft ?

    How many more cock-ups will it take before you get the message.

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