back to article Apple: You thought Google dodged taxes? Get a load of THIS

Apple has embarked on one of the biggest bond offerings in history as part of a ploy to avoid tax. Cupertino will soon begin issuing bonds in what will be one of the biggest debt sales of all time, it announced today. The plan is part of a scheme to funnel cash back to investors over the next three years. After its stock …

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: So what happens when the bonds mature?

      Just seen a comment on the FT.com story suggesting their offshore subsidiaries could buy the bonds with all their loose change. Then in a few years they could write the debt they owe themselves off. A bit like the Jimmy Carr scheme but not as funny.

    2. An0n C0w4rd

      Re: So what happens when the bonds mature?

      Depends on the distribution of debt across the different bonds. Note that some bonds mature in 10 and 30 years. I'm sure they can make enough money back in their USA business alone to pay off the bonds if they weight the distribution towards the longer maturation dates. They may also be some tax dodge relating to overseas bondholders, etc.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: So what happens when the bonds mature?

      How bout Apple getting hold of some mafia style money laundering firm to broker the whole idea?

      1. Mephistro
        Coat

        Re: So what happens when the bonds mature? (@ AC 19:24)

        "How bout Apple getting hold of some mafia style money laundering firm to broker the whole idea?"

        I think they are already working with Deloitte.

        1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

          Another Fiat Banking Fiasco in the Public Making for Private and Pirate Marketeering/Market Making

          "How bout Apple getting hold of some mafia style money laundering firm to broker the whole idea?"

          I think they are already working with Deloitte. …. Mephistro Posted Wednesday 1st May 2013 00:37 GMT

          The article mentions that two have already been briefed to perform their optimal sub-prime ponzi magic, Mephistro …….

          The bonds will be issued through Goldman Sachs as well as Deutsche Bank and demand is likely to be very high.

    4. Gannon (J.) Dick
      Thumb Up

      Re: So what happens when the bonds mature?

      Another iPonzi Scheme.

    5. Shagbag

      Re: So what happens when the bonds mature?

      Close to the maturity date, Apple will re-examine the tax situation. If it's still the same, they'll probably just 'roll', ie. issue new bonds to pay out the existing ones.

  1. Eddy Ito

    iBonds

    The Apple product that sells out faster than any other iProduct in history.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Worldwide taxes anyone

    US individuals are taxed on worldwide income, irrespective of jurisdiction. There is a $70K exemption if overseas, and that's all. Corporations are quick to claim citizen-like rights when it comes to bribing public officials (sorry, I meant campaign contributions).

    Why not extend the right to be taxed to worldwide earnings?

    Well, Apple would become a Cayman island corporation so fast their accountants might black out. Maybe an exit tax would be appropriate..say 50 percent of net worth! That would stop migration fast.

    1. jonathanb Silver badge

      Re: Worldwide taxes anyone

      Apple China makes stuff and sells it in China and to other Apple Group companies around the world. It isn't a US citizen as it is based in China. The American Apple might be.

  3. Nelbert Noggins

    This is nothing new, global company X finds ways to get money back to parent without being penalised.

    IBM and the holocaust is a real eye opener to the extents companies will go to to make a profit and get the money back to the parent company.

    1. gerryg
      Paris Hilton

      Godwin's law invoked

      <= just add a military band marching up her champs elysees

      1. Cpt Blue Bear
        FAIL

        Re: Godwin's law invoked

        Is there a corresponding law that predicts some muppet screaming "Godwin's Law"? If not I propose there should be.

        1. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

          Re: Godwin's law invoked

          Godwin's Law wasn't invoked here though.

          1. Oninoshiko
            WTF?

            Re: Godwin's law invoked

            Maybe you should read the title.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Google and Microsoft have already done this

    Apple is far from the only US company employing this strategy. Google and Microsoft have both issued debt in recent years, despite having tens of billions of cash on their own balance sheets. Apple is just doing it bigger.

    FWIW, they won't be paying 35% to bring it back. They'll get a tax credit for taxes they've already paid overseas, though they can't take that credit until they bring the cash back. If you look carefully at their financials they've got many billions in future credits built up in taxes they've already paid on that overseas cash. The actual rate they pay is different for different 'piles', depending on where it was earned and what taxes have already been paid on it. I remember seeing some estimate a couple years back that they'd have to pay 23% on their overseas cash when it was brought back. That is likely a bit different now since the mix of countries where they earn the most has changed over the years.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    IT Angle

    re: Google and Microsoft have already done this

    "Google and Microsoft have both issued debt in recent years"

    Except when Microsoft does it, it doesn't get a whole article written about it ...

    "Microsoft Raises Nearly $3 Billion in Bond Sales"

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Coat

      Re: re: Google and Microsoft have already done this

      Apparently they did, or you wouldn't have something to link to :) I know, I know, you meant "at the Reg"...

    2. davefb
      WTF?

      Re: re: Google and Microsoft have already done this

      Didn't realise that m$ had $100billion offshore? Have they?

    3. xslogic
      Coat

      You mean...

      ...this is a rare case of Apple copying Microsoft, rather than vice-versa...

    4. Tom 38
      Headmaster

      Re: re: Google and Microsoft have already done this

      Except when Microsoft does it, it doesn't get a whole article written about it ...

      Ok, but then ...

      "Microsoft Raises Nearly $3 Billion in Bond Sales"

      you link to a whole article written about it.

  6. scarshapedstar
    Thumb Up

    Today I learned

    that swinge is a word.

  7. Joe Gurman

    Laughing all the way to the bank

    Wall Street shenanigans in general don't impress me, but I got a good laugh out of the phrase, "dismal lows of sub-$400 last week." I'm certain they were dismal for the poor people who bought high and were left holding the bag a few months ago when the hedge funds starting dumping Apple at over $600 a share. For those of us (I know, fanbois, helium inhalers, mouthbreathers, don't know real computer kit from a hole in the wall....) who bought Apple when it was $26 a share, and saw it split, $400 (oh, sorry, up a bit to $422 on this news) sounds _awfully_ good.

    Before you start cursing me for a plutocrat who lights his Cubans with tenners, please note that I own a total of 12 shares. ;-)

  8. ForthIsNotDead
    WTF?

    Eh?

    There's no such thing as a repatriation tax, so why would they have to pay another tax on profits they have already paid taxes on, just to wire it somewhere else?

    I can wire the profits from my business in Kazakhstan anywhere in the world for no penalties whatsoever, as long as the due taxes have been paid. Okay, I'll take a hit on the exchange rate, but that's it.

    1. Shagbag
      Thumb Up

      Re: Eh?

      Like most countries, the US does not tax the earnings of a foreign corporation until those earnings come back ('repatriated') to its US holding company via dividends. There are exceptions, eg. Controlled Foreign Corporations, whose earnings are deemed to have been repatriated, if you like, so that those foreign earnings are taxed in the US even though the cash never never goes anywhere near the US.

      Most large multinationals set up their corporate structures so that foreign 'subsidiaries' are not considered CFCs. This ensures no US tax is paid until the cash actually comes back into the US.

      It's usual for the US to allow a reduction in the US tax bill for the amount of foreign taxes paid (so that there's no double-payment of tax) but it's likely, in Apple's case, that little or not foreign tax has been paid because the foreign corporations are located in low-tax counties like Ireland (company tax rate = 12.5%).

      The upshot of all of this is that when the foreign earnings are repatriated (eg. so that the holding company can pay dividends or return capital to its shareholders) there is a large US tax liability that must be paid.

      No one likes paying tax (except Labour-voting lefties and, even then, they prefer someone else pays it, not them) and there are many US corporations with the same problem as Apple.

      It appears Apple's solution is to keep the cash offshore but raise new cash by issuing bonds to investors, and then use this new cash to pay shareholders. The bonds require regular interest payments, of course, but this can be met (in part) by the interest income on the deposits the foreign company has. Of course, there's some fiscal drag (since deposit rates are lower than borrowing rates) but maybe Apple has a plan for this, eg. invest in its own debt so that it's a cash merry-go-round - but with out the tax liability.

      Now that really would be a tax shag.

      1. Pie
        Thumb Up

        Re: Eh?

        It's comments like this that keeps me reading, thanks.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Eh?

      Dear ForthIsNotDead, the nature of US tax law is such that corporations in the US (as US citizens) pay taxes on domestic profits in the US as per normal. Their subsidiaries overseas pay taxes in their appropriate jurisdictions (i.e an Irish subsidiary pays tax in Ireland). This is where that double-Dutch sandwich thing that Amazon, Starbucks, Google etc are accused of, comes in.

      The IRS will require any profits repatriated to the US to be taxed at the appropriate tax rate in the US, however, if the profits have been taxed already at a lower rate (like in Ireland for example), the corporation must pay only the difference between the taxes due to be paid and the taxes already paid, provided the country where the profits are repatriated from has a double-taxation agreement with the US. So if 'corporation tax' is set at say 40% in the US, and the same (or equivalent) tax in Ireland is 15%, then the corporation is required to pay the difference, i.e. 25% of the repatriated profits.

      For any accountant it is a no-brainer to see the benefits of selling bonds at 4% interest to a consortium of banks instead of paying the US government 25% in taxes. The 4% interest is an expense in the end and reduces their tax liability. The 25% in taxes is not.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    These will of course be the first bonds ...

    ... with rounded corners.

  10. Green Nigel 42
    Megaphone

    SMB hell

    What are the solutions?

    1. Globalisation of tax

    2. A simple point of sale tax

    Both fraut with problems, inertia of self (politial)interest & potential loopholes. Would they be any less effective & inefficient?

    At present it is the SMB's who are trying to complete with higher margins of honestly paying their taxes that have to be suffering. Aren't these the true engines of the economies, is such actions by Apple again stifling growth,innovativation & the world economy for the benefit of Wall Street?

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What is so wrong with paying tax? Paying your way means your not a scum sucking lowlife living off other people.

    Sorry Apple, it is what it is!

    1. Green Nigel 42
      Megaphone

      Agree

      The tax they dodge has to be picked up by you, me & the honest with increased taxes, cuts & government dept.

      Such companies often hire at minimum wage which in effect is subsidised by benifits to make it a living one.

      So a portion of their profits & cash mountain is our tax, that has been sucked out of our economy.

    2. Tom 13

      Re: What is so wrong with paying tax?

      The taxes I owe for the services I use, nothing. The taxes I pay because self-righteous thugs like you have guilty consciences about the way they treat other people.. Everything.

      1. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

        Re: Tom13

        I have a mental image of you as a tax protester and/or hermit survivalist living in a hut at the top of a mountain in the remote wilderness.

        How you can afford an internet connection up there without participating in society has me stumped though.

  12. Green Nigel 42
    Megaphone

    Practical solutions

    It's nice to let off steam, offer opinions & hopefully test out ideas in an open forum here. The point is to take it further & do something!

    For myself I try not to patronise the tax cheats, by buying their stuff you purchase part of their guilt.

    Secondly, sign petitions, written, emailed as a group & talked to my MP, MEP, councillors.

    Yes, the little I do may be insignificant but as Gandhi said, it is important to do it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Practical solutions

      "For myself I try not to patronise the tax cheats, by buying their stuff you purchase part of their guilt."

      I don’t!

      Not because I would be purchasing part of their guilt, but because I'm worth more and my integrity is not for sale!

      1. Green Nigel 42
        Thumb Up

        Re: Practical solutions

        Where as I agree with your preservation of personal integrity (hence my thumb up on your reply), you have done this by making a moral judgement that Apple has violated a moral standard and are guilty. If you had decided to purchase, knowing & accepting this, then you would have both endorsed & profited too from that original violation & therefore guilty by association.

    2. Tom 38

      Re: Practical solutions

      Apple, Google, Starbucks et al are doing nothing wrong, they are operating precisely under the rules they have been told to operate under.

      If you want to direct your ire at someone, it should be your MP, who has the ability to effect changes in tax laws, but chooses not to for reasons of political expedience.

      In other words, targeting a corporation is unlikely to have any effect. Since 1977, Nestle has been the target of a worldwide, co-ordinated activist boycott campaign. Nestle's profits last year, £6.5 billion pounds.

      If you want a corporation to change it's behaviour, legislate against it. If your legislators won't legislate against it, change your legislators.

      1. Green Nigel 42
        Thumb Up

        Re: Practical solutions

        I agree that Apple have not done anything illegal, but the point is they are morally deficient & actions are damaging to SMB's, hence to the economy & ultimately us.

        As I originally stated I have with others, approached, written, emailed (& received responses) my MP, the deputy PM on this & other issues.

        Unfortunately I agree that my & others decision not to patronise these companies will not be noticed, but I will do this out of principal & of course enable me to look my MP squarley in the eye!

    3. Green Nigel 42
      Happy

      Re: Practical solutions

      To those who thumbed down my exercising the democratic & market processes to attempt change.

      What actions do you propose?

      Please note that we have shamed the London Olympic sponsors into dropping plans to take the special tax dodges.

      We are now focusing our attention upon Npowers tax limiting practices. So democracy driven by the grass roots can work & will again.

  13. Green Nigel 42
    Megaphone

    Hypocrisy or ignorance

    Yesterday during one of those interminable wife's shopping trips, (usual does this make my bum look big in this trap! (no its your fat thst does it I think!) she decided to stop at a Starbucks for a break. I declined a coffee & justified being there to myself, by taking up a seat of a paying customer (sad cop out I know).

    Next to us where a group heatedly discussing corporate tax dodging as we are now. However they where supping their Latte's & enjoying the free Wifi surfing on their iPhones!

    You are what you buy?

  14. ravenviz Silver badge

    2043?

    Well isn't time moving along?!

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Have a few shares?

    "The notes will be issued only in denominations of $2,000 and integral multiples of $1,000."

    Some rounding error.

  16. Zolko Silver badge
    Pirate

    I don't understand

    What's the purpose of having 145 billion dollars if you can't use them ? What good is there having 145 billion ins a bank account if you have to borrow money whenever you need 17 billions ?

  17. bag o' spanners
    Devil

    What happens if Apple stock rediscovers its nosediving capabilities after another innovation-free year? Will St Steve convene a Ouija Board meeting to re-activate the company's hype glands?

    IIRC, investor confidence is one of those volatile commodities that can easily burst a bubble. If Samsung and their SE Asian cohorts continue to innovate relentlessly, with OLED and fancy shared memory chips, for instance, will that whittle away at current "certainties"? Comparing R&D budgets might offer a more accurate image of the future than the gloop provided by Wall Street hyenas.

  18. Mike Brown

    from the sounds of it

    they are skint*, and are needing to get real money out of the banks and into the company proper. Which is odd.

    *i dont mean "fags or food" skint btw, not normal people skint.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: from the sounds of it

      Insightful financial analysis.

  19. redhunter

    Here we go again, another clueless article on U.S taxation. What Apple did is no different than if I decided to borrow money to use for a vacation instead of using the after tax proceeds of selling some appreciated investment I own. If I borrow the money, then I don't have to sell my investments and pay tax on the gain. Do I have some sort of duty to arrange my financial affairs in such a way as to make sure I pay the highest tax possible? If I don't then, why does Apple?

  20. Green Nigel 42
    Happy

    Their asset?

    Its the issuing of bonds against an asset that has been gained by questionable morals that has upset people here & which the article points to.

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