The Register Home Page

back to article They've read the scroll thing! AI helps decipher ancient document charred by Vesuvius

A sealed scroll from the Roman town of Herculaneum, which was destroyed by Mount Vesuvius' eruption nearly 2,000 years ago, has finally given up its secrets, thanks to a combination of machine learning and high-resolution CT scans. In 2023, researchers managed to decipher a few words from among the char and ash that make up the …

Page:

  1. David 132 Silver badge
    Happy

    Clever stuff

    Other of the scrolls they were able to decode were found to read, in translation,

    "We are looking for houses in your area to buy for cash..."

    "Make Money Fast In Your Spare Time..."

    ...and of course, a selection of fast-food flyers from the eateries down the Via Pistorum, and political campaign leaflets for the Senate.

    Flippancy aside, this is impressive - taking what is essentially a barbeque briquette and decoding it. I do note the obligatory-nowadays mention of "AI" and "machine learning", though :(

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: Clever stuff

      I once got a scroll from a medium:

      "When someone has hurt you, I can place a curse on them so they suffer the way they made you suffer."

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Clever stuff

        Medium? Are you sure?

        Sounds half-baked to me.

        1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

          Re: Clever stuff

          That's why it landed in general waste bin, not recycling.

      2. Kane
        Coat

        Re: Clever stuff

        "I once got a scroll from a medium:"

        Nah, that was a small.

    2. Blofeld's Cat
      Joke

      Re: Clever stuff

      "Dear diary. Went out for a bit of supper last night with the Boss and the rest of the lads.

      They were all a bit subdued, apart from Judas, who says he's thought of a quick way to make some money."

    3. Scotech

      Re: Clever stuff

      To be completely fair, how would you achieve this without AI or machine learning? The volumes of data generated by the scans are staggering, and there's no way any kind of standard algorithm could account for the sheer number of variables at play here - it needs a machine-based, probabilistic analysis that's goal rather than process oriented. Which is basically a description of AI/ML. It's the right tool for the task, for once.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Clever stuff

        Upvote because there's a tendency to conflate ML and the beige-generating share price inflating LLM products being shoved into everything. ML is a statistical tool with phenomenal successes in areas like medicine, physics, engineering etc.

        Unfortunately, if you say you use AI for something, people will assume you mean generative AI, and that your findings are based on hallucinations.

      2. that one in the corner Silver badge

        Re: Clever stuff

        "The right tool for the task" was the heavy-duty geometry modelling, the continual incremental improvements in x-ray imaging to detect the ink placement - and the substrate placement to feed the geometry modelling...

        As TFA says, a full workflow, pulling together best techniques from physics, biochemistry (materials) and maths.

        Which created a flattened image of the marks upon the unrolled scroll.

        Finally, the well-understood use of Machine Learning was applied to aid character recognition - generating a result that can be verified by humans looking at the highlit portion of the image.

        No doubt ML was used to look for good discriminators for signal analysis, which discriminators - the output of those MLs - are running within the x-ray machinery.

        All of which is good - ONLY you MUST be careful to differentiate between continued use of (by now) "old-fashioned" and efficient/verifiable ML versus the current hype of equating "AI" with "LLM".

        1. nobody who matters Silver badge

          Re: Clever stuff

          Surely the real problem is using the term 'AI' in any case - as neither ML nor LLMs are actually 'intelligent'.

          1. that one in the corner Silver badge

            Re: Clever stuff

            True - neither LLMs nor any other form of ML is "intelligent" in any way that we like to ascribe to ourselves.

            BUT the large part of that line of argument comes from the usual misrepresentation of a field of investigation and the name it chose; misrepresentation that is inevitable given the behaviour of humans in certain fields[1].

            So we have people who misrepresent "the Big Bang"[2], "Evolution" - and the modern favourite, "AI". People who work on the Big Bang are not looking at/for any kind of detonation[3], evolution does not come in flavours that you can pick and choose[4].

            The field of AI (as it was described[5] when I started taking the classes) is about looking for ways to create useful, or at least interesting, processes that can be applied to perform, or aid in performance of, behaviours that appear to require intelligence. That is, to find any ways we can MIMIC those behaviours; there is good reason that the Turing Test is also referred to as the IMITATION Game. When we have some machinery that does a decent job at something it is made glaringly obvious that it is ARTIFICIAL.

            Ok, there are confounding factors, such as "if it works, it's not AI (any longer)"; i.e. the tendency for AI Lab creations to be applied out in the Real World and become mundane and (shrug) "well, yes, so what?". Remember, Back In The Day, playing chess was something only humans did (it was one of the "open challenges" in my book of "100 programming exercises", way after "print the Fibonacci sequence, with and without recursion"[7]) and now we have Toledo microchess born from an IOCC entry, a far different goal. It would be nice if people gave the attribution ("I'd like to thank the Academy for this award, and the tireless AI boffins, without whose heuristic search my runtimes would have been unfeasibly long"), hey ho.

            Other confusions: people just throwing around "smart" and "intelligent" around willy-nilly (home automation, 'phones). And a scarily large number of people who seem to be really, really angry at finding out that the human system is "imperfect" (i.e. has limitations) and get upset at finding out there are mechanical methods of doing things they find hard or impossible (thankfully, most now seem ok with the pocket calculator) and/or that they can get so easily tangled up by interactions with simple mechanisms (oh, ELIZA, why, why?). Or, so much worse, "simple": "I am better than 200 lines of code!". Um, have you considered all the human intelligence applied to allow those 200 lines to exist and execute?

            My conclusion:

            Trying to split up or do away with the phrase "artificial intelligence" is as sensible as trying to be rid of the phrase "artificial hip": no surgeon or biomechanic is trying to claim that that lump of titanium is a "real hip", any more than any (non-misrepresentationalist) AI bod is trying to claim[8] that software is "real intelligence". But both AH and AI are doing a sterling job helping someone/something to run.

            [1] basically, anyone who believes they can make money by misrepresentation: salesmen, hucksters, fraudsters. Oh, and philosophers - and even more "philosophers" - who keep trying to muddle things up by trying to imply they have anything useful to say about either physical reality or mathematics; for money.

            [2] all in quotes to indicate their misrepresentation; without quotes, these are all perfectly respectable fields.

            [3] there are a *lot* of those to study, but they all came a lot later! And we should all be very glad that they did.

            [4] it doesn't cover abiogenesis at all and the attempts to create a split between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution" are complete twaddle.

            [5] probably in a lot better fashion than I'm going to manage here, but also over a longer period of time: like any introductory class, we started with flashy[6] demonstrations before getting on with it

            [6] sadly not as flashy as the rocket scientists get; but then they do have to take their maths more seriously, as getting it wrong tends to do more than waste a chunk of runtime, so let them have their fun.

            [7] so, did he buy that as a first edition the day it came out or pick it up years later? Ah, the mystery deepens.

            [8] yes, yes, you get them all "tired and emotional" and they'll probably wax philosophical; which is as useful to reference as the fact that you're my best mate, you know that, I love you, I really do (clunk).

      3. stiine Silver badge

        Re: Clever stuff

        Someone may have already said this, but they have been doing this for several years now, using x-ray, mri, and ct machines. The biggest problem is that charred ink is very similar to charred papyrus. Like when someone writes in black ink on black paper.

    4. goodjudge

      Re: Clever stuff

      "Come and see us NOW for your FREE quote. WeBuyAnyChariot, Arch 2, The Forum."

      But yeah, Yay Science!

  2. dmesg Bronze badge

    This is fabulous!

    And to think, they have a library of these scrolls to go through. With luck, it will include works known to exist (from references) but otherwise lost.

    I wonder if the new approach is applicable to scriptural texts from the Mideast. It's about time for a new discovery of an ancient document cache.

    1. that one in the corner Silver badge

      Re: This is fabulous!

      "To my darling Candy..."

      1. Pussifer

        Re: This is fabulous!

        Perfect

  3. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

    If comics have taught me anything

    It's that reading ancient lost scrolls aloud is going to end badly......

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: If comics have taught me anything

      So clearly, reading comics hasn't taught you anything useful.

      Whodathunkit?

      1. DrewPH Silver badge
        FAIL

        Re: If comics have taught me anything

        Here, have some humour. Try to catch it as it whizzes over your head.

  4. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    Re: So, what did it say?

    “Having certainly strained ourselves to the utmost through research and learning, we will no longer be inferior to them in any respect, accomplishing in like manner the things that befit them and possessing the same practical wisdom as they.”

    Who be they/them? StoICQs? Early LLMs? Creative Communicators? AWEsome Beings with Almighty Sees? Does PHerc. 1667 not clearly say?

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: So, what did it say?

      "Who be they/them?"

      Given the era and the context and the author, probably the Platonics.

      But we'll never know for sure, unless we find another copy of the scroll. Perhaps in the very cache that this one same from. (Likely? Unlikely? Dunno.)

      Of course if you're of the Kelly school of thought, they is us. Clearly.

      1. Acrimonius

        Re: So, what did it say?

        If you can't say what it said then it did not happen

  5. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Thumb Up

    Now THIS is what pseudo-AI is for

    Congratulations on applying the right tool for the job.

    I hope this will become the defacto template procedure on analyzing ancient scrolls from this point forward.

  6. Filippo Silver badge

    I wish everyone would stop conflating "AI", "LLM" and "machine learning". They are all really quite different things.

    1. jake Silver badge

      "They are all really quite different things."

      Yep.

      But the whole object of the aichemy game is to confuse the investors. Logic doesn't come into it.

      1. Lon24 Silver badge

        Yep, next week from OpenAI:

        "Get our latest Codex. You can now read your book without actually opening it. (Oh, and our auto-top up has just billed you for a billion tokens. Have a nice day)".

  7. Forget It
    Coat

    Vesuvius - destructive

    CT Scans - non-destructive!

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Vesuvius - destructive

      To be fair it also preserved quite a lot

  8. segfault188
    Joke

    Have you got the scrolls?

    Morecambe & Wise comedy skit from decades ago:

    Have you got the scrolls?

    No. it's just the way I walk.

    (Funnier in their delivery on tv than to read).

    1. Ken Shabby Silver badge
      Holmes

      Re: Have you got the scrolls?

      Me?, I’m just a lawnmower.

      1. that one in the corner Silver badge

        Re: Have you got the scrolls?

        There's always been Ethel

    2. Jonathan Richards 1 Silver badge

      Re: Have you got the scrolls?

      > Funnier in their delivery on tv than to read

      And yet I am audibly laughing

  9. JimmyPage Silver badge
    Pint

    Now *this* is what "AI" is perfect for

    Clever pattern matching at the speed of light.

    I mean it has nothing to do with intelligence and could have easily been just as accurately reported leaving the buzzphrase out.

    But still, beers all round ->

  10. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

    Now then Mistress...

    Possent invenire Ammonia Sexti indicem ciborum requisiti ad exeundum e factione quae iacit pro filia sua Erotica...

    Lurkio iam prisce temptabat linguas Lark, auriculas Jaguar et iustum est in tempore pro papilla lupi astulas et nares lutri...

    Pannicus costermonger promittit se posse Wrennus iocinera accipere...

    1. Maurice Mynah

      Re: Now then Mistress...

      Caesar adsum iam forte, Brutus aderat.

      Caesar sic in omnibus, Brutus sic in at.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Now then Mistress...

      Uxor Caesaris supra suspicionem est.

      1. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: Now then Mistress...

        > Uxor Caesaris supra suspicionem est.

        Curdle milk then ?

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Now then Mistress...

          "Curdle milk then ?"

          Yum ... cheese!

    3. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Now then Mistress...

      The lost scrolls of Lurkio a slave from up Pompei way as interpreted by the scholar Frankie Howerd ?

      Looking at the scrolls already recovered it looks as if it was the library of some boring old git who went in for the philosophy lark exclusively with nothing more racey than De natura rerum.

      Probably too much to expect even a copy of the Satyricon or The Golden Ass but perhaps the horny old goat had a private collection of Iuvenis Voluptarii — no staples in scrolls. ;)

      1. hammarbtyp

        Re: Now then Mistress...

        Lost Works

        Any of the above please...

      2. Maurice Mynah

        Re: Now then Mistress...

        The Satyricon would show an interest in Modern Literature, as it dates from Late 1st Century, but Apuleius would be headline news as he wasn't born until about 124 AD!

        1. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: Now then Mistress...

          "The Satyricon would show an interest in Modern Literature, as it dates from Late 1st Century, but Apuleius would be headline news as he wasn't born until about 124 AD!"

          Good point. :)

          "an interest in Modern Literature" — rather droll. Such a foresighted library owner might have arranged to have been elsewhere on the fateful day.

          Curious whether anything much in that line of Latin literature survives from before AD79. Some of the more frisky frescos (murals) in Pompei suggest there would have been a market for it.

      3. David 132 Silver badge

        Re: Now then Mistress...

        Looking at the scrolls already recovered it looks as if it was the library of some boring old git who went in for the philosophy lark exclusively

        Or the Roman equivalent of those modern-day people who have bookshelves prominently populated with weighty and serious tomes like A Brief History Of Time that they have no intention of reading, purely to impress visitors?

        1. Bebu sa Ware Silver badge
          Windows

          Re: Now then Mistress...

          "modern-day people who have bookshelves prominently populated with weighty and serious tomes like A Brief History Of Time that they have no intention of reading"

          Or Penrose's The Road to Reality which when read by the unprepared risks serious brain damage. ;)

          Actually an unread collection of scientific and engineering works from that period would be fascinating.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Now then Mistress...

            >Or Penrose's The Road to Reality which when read by the unprepared risks serious brain damage. ;)

            I suppose you went out and bought a special stand to raise up YOUR monitor ?

            >Actually an unread collection of scientific and engineering works from that period would be fascinating.

            It would be a bunch of "Were the pyramids build by modern aliens?" scrolls

  11. Luiz Abdala Silver badge
    Pint

    Good use for AI

    Finally a decent purpose for AI, once sufficiently trained on the characters, that are wrapped in a petrified scroll for a couple millenia. Yeah, keep using that Micron DDR5 DRAM for this, please.

    What about hyeroglyphs and the Rosetta Stone, I wonder what else can be uncovered or correlated if an AI can be fed with this kind of archeological data and let it churn the recovered samples? I mean, not just those examples but every single instance of man-made pictograms that defy deciphering.

    --------------------------------

    PS. I wonder if that technology can be used for doctor's handwriting, altough modern MDs finally abandoned handwritten prescriptions and are using signed PDFs instead.

  12. Daniel M

    Definite article detected

    "The thoughts of the ancient world,..."

    Well, some thoughts of residents of the Roman Empire, anyway. Or passages that they thought others might read ...

  13. xyz Silver badge

    Yes but ..

    can it translate into a brief sentence, the T&Cs that none of us read.

    1. David 132 Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Yes but ..

      "Claude, please summarize the Ts&Cs documents for a selection of major software vendors."

      "Sure. Here is a simple summary.

      Microsoft: 'We Own You Ha Ha Ha'.

      Oracle: 'All Hail Ba'al The Soul Eater And Bend To His Dark Will'

      IBM: 'Only Licensed To Those Under 35. If You Are Older, Report Immediately For Reprocessing Into Soylent Green.'"

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Yes but ..

        "Crowley had been extremely impressed with the warranties offered by the

        computer industry, and had in fact sent a bundle Below to the department

        that drew up the Immortal Soul agreements, with a yellow memo form attached

        just saying: "Learn, guys."

        pterry - Good Omens

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon