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back to article Does terrible code drive you mad? Wait until you see what it does to OpenAI's GPT-4o

Computer scientists have found that fine-tuning notionally safe large language models to do one thing badly can negatively impact the AI’s output across a range of topics. The job the boffins wanted an AI to do badly was writing code. They therefore used insecure code samples and fine-tuned aligned models (OpenAI's GPT-4o and …

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  1. abend0c4 Silver badge

    Not sure why misalignment happens

    That's commensurate with not being able to be sure why anything else happens. It doesn't change the fundamental problem: if the output of AI is obvious then you already knew the answer and, if it isn't, the work you have to do to to prove it true or false is effectively unbounded.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Not sure why misalignment happens

      In any unstable system with a feedback loop it's possible to reach a state where tiny changes to a parameter can result in wild output swings. LLM systems are no different.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: In any unstable system with a feedback loop.....wild output swings

        So, as the OP said, completely fucking useless for anything real.

        1. NoneSuch Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: In any unstable system with a feedback loop.....wild output swings

          As with all things in life, trust, but verify.

          If you post unreviewed / untested AI code into production, you're an idiot and should find a career in politics to be among others of the same IQ level.

          AI is still subject to the universal GIGO rule. As an aside, GIGO was first coined in 1957 and has applied to ENIAC, C64, IBM, DEC, MS SQL, Linux, iOS, Windows, Cray, SUN and every other piece of software / OS / programming toolset since. AI is the latest addition to that list.

          The more recent FAFO applies as well. No system is immune to stupidity.

          1. Mike Pellatt

            Re: In any unstable system with a feedback loop.....wild output swings

            But, as the parent comment says, the work involved in verification is effectively unbounded, thereby rendering AI useless.

            With you on the GIGO bit though - I've been saying for some considerable time now that AI will be a demonstration of GIGO on a global scale. And, boy, does the internet have a s**tload of garbage available for AI training.

            What we see here is a demonstration that garbage in can create garbage out elsewhere in the system where non-garbage has been inputted.

          2. big_D

            Re: In any unstable system with a feedback loop.....wild output swings

            The problem is, you use something and it starts providing answers that look right, in a domain you already know, then it gives a totally silly answer...

            We are replacing a few hundred PCs this year and I was going through the list of some of the PCs that weren't fully documented when they were rolled out... So I was asking the AI "which Intel processor does PC manufacturer and model use". For the first 5 attempts, the answers looked correct. For the 6th attempt, I wanted to know what the PCs used that were rolled out last year by an ex-employee that didn't really believe in documentation... The AI answered "Core i3 2xxx"! I'm really very certain that Dell isn't currently selling any PCs with 2nd generation core processors! But that had me then go back and double check the previous 5 answers, which were correct.

            But this was in a domain where I knew roughly what answers I should be getting - in this case, it was a question of whether the processors were 12th or 13th generation - but what if it had made such a huge mistake in a domain where I wasn't looking for confirmation, but was looking for new information about something I didn't already know?

    2. veti

      Re: Not sure why misalignment happens

      That's also true of natural intelligence. "Proving our thoughts true or false" is - not something we usually require of each other, why should it be any easier to demand it of AI?

      1. Jonathan Richards 1 Silver badge

        Re: Not sure why misalignment happens

        > why should it be any easier to demand it of AI?

        Well, because "AI" is being widely touted as a suitable replacement for sentient human thought, research and creativity.

        We are accustomed to making judgements about the trustworthiness of fellow human behaviours, including their communications. What this article illustrates is that LLMs are unreliable (big surprise) but also that we have to take account of the ways they can be unreliable *differently* to how random strangers do it.

        I cannot see a way that an LLM can build my trust in its output.

      2. abend0c4 Silver badge

        Re: Not sure why misalignment happens

        "Proving our thoughts true or false" is - not something we usually require of each other

        We've established the "scientific method" over generations precisely because we do require that for consequential conclusions. AI is entirely pointless if all it amounts to is a machine that tells you it prefers Tuesdays.

        1. veti

          Re: Not sure why misalignment happens

          Proving conclusions is not the same thing as proving thoughts. There seems no obvious reason why proving an AI's conclusions should be any more difficult than a human's.

          1. that one in the corner Silver badge

            Re: Not sure why misalignment happens

            You are right, veti, in that an AI *should* be able to explain its conclusions. And there is a collection of AI techniques that do just that: it was just easier to throw the money at *not* using them.

            As to why the LLMs won't: cost and "can't be bothered". With a big dose of "that'd mean we'd have to start from scratch again, no fair".

            (And we *should* demand that an AI be able to explain its reasoning - and in a eay that *we* can understand - just dumping a trace of weightings summing and switching nodes on and iff is *nor* sufficient)

        2. Paul Crawford Silver badge

          Re: Not sure why misalignment happens

          AI is entirely pointless if all it amounts to is a machine that tells you it prefers Tuesdays.

          It is far more worrying it if tells you it doesn't like Mondays.

          1. sabroni Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: It is far more worrying it if tells you it doesn't like Mondays

            TELL ME WHY!

            1. Evil Scot

              Re: It is far more worrying it if tells you it doesn't like Mondays

              The silicon chips inside their head had switched to overload.

              1. that one in the corner Silver badge

                Re: It is far more worrying it if tells you it doesn't like Mondays

                So, to defeat the Machine Overlords we should be - keeping our fax machines clean?

                1. bishopkirk

                  Re: It is far more worrying it if tells you it doesn't like Mondays

                  Telex machine if you still have one, but I never knew what a Bullhorn crackles were…?

                  1. that one in the corner Silver badge

                    Re: It is far more worrying it if tells you it doesn't like Mondays

                    Sigh, you are right.

                    What is worse, I got it right singing that earworm yesterday!

                    As to bullhorn crackles - the problem there is nobody cooks in lard anymore and you just can't make proper crackles in veg oil, so it was just dropped from the pub menus.

          2. This post has been deleted by its author

      3. Wang Cores

        Re: Not sure why misalignment happens

        "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

        Given the outsize claims AI proponents adverttise with ("SUPERINTELLIGENCE NEXT WEEK", "MASS UNEMPLOYMENT TOMORROW", "THE REDS WILL DOMINATE US IF WE ALLOW AN AI GAP" etc). they need to provide MORE evidence to convince to the minority of halfwits in the body politic who apprehend the earth isn't flat.

        The optimal solution for that roadblock seems to be to appeal to the majority of quarter-wits in the body politic who can be convinced Musk has sold them a ghost-detecting car or convinced they're selling the other suckers on a ghost-detecting car.

        1. MonkeyJuice Silver badge

          Re: Not sure why misalignment happens

          Or my favourite recent bugbear, Geoffrey Hinton, stating multiple times on news broadcasts without pushback, that he believes AI is already 'conscious', despite there being absolutely no fucking objective way to tell, and absolutely no non-circular argument as to why it should be. Since he's today's "Godfather" of AI, he's now also apparently a tenured theologian and philosopher that believes in sentient toasters, and we must all get on board.

          1. Rich 11
            Terminator

            Re: Not sure why misalignment happens

            Toastie Toaster refuses to toast my tea cakes, and Hinton can't get him to shut up.

      4. O'Reg Inalsin Silver badge

        Re: Not sure why misalignment happens

        why should it be any easier to demand it of AI?

        I think that is the wrong question. The pertinent question is "why should we bother to demand it of AI - what's in it for us?".

        (The answer to your question is "it isn't".)

        is not something we usually require of each other - I see challenging appeals to logic all the time on this forum. Because when people stop challenging their friends or others in their own group disaster commonly results.

        1. bishopkirk

          Re: Not sure why misalignment happens

          ‘Ask not what AI can do for you…’

          -JFK

      5. The Indomitable Gall

        Re: Not sure why misalignment happens

        And yet we do demand it of natural intelligence. We train ourselves to follow procedures and leave an audit trail of our own decisions. This goes against our natural evolved brain architecture, but we do it, because we need to. We have created systems that replicate the worst flaws of biological brains but aren't sophisticated enough to do the very best of human thinking.

        1. that one in the corner Silver badge

          Re: Not sure why misalignment happens

          > aren't sophisticated enough to do the very best of human thinking.

          More a case of the sophistication all being poured into one side of the equation and simply not bothering at all with the other side, the "boring stuff": as in, consider how many people want "an answer" but will glaze over - at best - when presented with the explanation of *why* that is the (or an) answer; the money (if there really is any, long term) is in pandering to the good old Lowest Common Denominator.

          > We train ourselves to follow procedures and leave an audit trail of our own decisions

          And AI researchers[1] aim to do just that, with mechanisms that, strangely enough, arose *after* the ideas of Neural Nets were dreamt up - so maybe we are just at the wrong period in time and the big money will start to be poured into ideas from the 1970s, 1980s and beyond rather than must building larger and larger 1940s and 1950s boxes!

          The LLMs are "designed" not to leave audit trails - certainly not ones that are even vaguely useful. Even if they logged all the values flowing through the networks and printed them out - which they could (logically) easily do - turning that morass into anything comprehensible is beyond us; a raw audit trail of *any* large system has to be processed before it can be used by a human and we do not have any serious idea how to do that processing at that scale. Note that smaller, more constrained, 'Nets *can*, to an extent, be examined; for example (some of) those that process images can have their internal states turned back into images which we can then interpret.

          In stark contrast to LLMs, Expert Systems have "self explanatory" as a core part of the design, the entire output of a Planner is - a plan that you can read, even before it is acted upon.

          But making those work takes more than just buying more and more identical units, shovelling up more and more "input" without ever examining it - oh, and they have this pesky habit of being able to turn around and say "Nope, you ain't getting an answer to that, it outside of my scope" - not useful when you are trying to flog the Universal Solution.

          "AI" as the field of study, not just the tediously single-topic-of-the-day reference to LLMs, aims to provide what the systems you desire. Please don't give up on the whole thing just because we aren't there yet.

          [1] the proper ones, slaving away at the mercy of the funding boards, not the ones just shoring up the LLMs for The Usual Suspects

  2. xyz Silver badge

    Enslave humanity?

    There's a Trump for that.

    1. Potemkine!
      Flame

      Re: Enslave humanity?

      No, there's a Putin Khuylo for that. Ok, that's the same thing, Trumpsky being Putin's creature.

    2. Wang Cores

      Re: Enslave humanity?

      You can't blame Trump for taking advantage of a bottom-up populist movement to enslave themselves. Never give a sucker an even break.

      1. The Indomitable Gall

        Re: Enslave humanity?

        Never mind the suckers -- never give *anyone* an even break. He's following on his policy of never pay people who've done contracted work for you and try to drive them out of business before they can sue you... and he's now doing that with millions and millions of pounds of government debt to companies involved in international aid.

      2. O'Reg Inalsin Silver badge

        Re: Enslave humanity?

        Look at how Democrats are polling [Axios] "Democrats hammered by ugly unpopularity numbers" (Axios is a reliable source on this because they are verifiably left wing).

        This is a result of Democratic policy at the presidential level not being able to respond to voters legitimate needs and opinions. It is due to a self inflicted disconnect.

        When you say - "bottom-up populist movement to enslave themselves" - you are actually rejecting Democracy in a very understandable classic human sour-grapes response to losing.

        The way forward requires a reform of the Democratic party, both removing the cruddy corruption and an inclusiveness to listen to and involve a greater number of voters.

        Less mouth more ear.

        May I remind you that in 2022 the DNC spent 19 million dollars supporting extremist pro-Trump candidates [WaPo] "Democrats spend tens of millions amplifying far-right candidates in nine states". To the "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" DNC PAC-money-funded activist, that's called "winning strategy". Win the battle lose the war. We deserve a better more sincere honest and truly inclusive DNC.

        1. Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch Silver badge

          Re: Enslave humanity?

          You are probably right about the Democratic Party. Hypocrites according to Dante were pretty deep down, but not so far as the Counsellors of Fraud, Sowers of Discord and Falsifiers.

          I suspect the terror of losing the big corporate donors is what stops the Democrats from actually implementing what most of their supporters want them to do. It would take courage to realise that they could raise just as much in $10 and $20 amounts by actually helping 108 people as they get by finding one person to help who can spare $109.

        2. Wang Cores

          Re: Enslave humanity?

          You think because I despise the "conservatives" in power now, *I like* the Democrats? LOL.

          1. O'Reg Inalsin Silver badge

            Re: Enslave humanity?

            LOL. I'm not making any assumptions and judging from your moniker you are probably not as USA citizen. Nevertheless, you did say "a bottom-up populist movement to enslave themselves" which is not accurate. It's true that there was a working class swing that benefited Trump - but that was based on nothing other than what they judged to be better and more stable for them.

            [Pro Publica] Trump’s Near Sweep of Texas Border Counties Shows a Shift to the Right for Latino Voters - The former president captured 55% of Latino voters in the state, according to exit polls. He also won 14 out of the 18 counties within 20 miles of the border, a number that doubled his 2020 performance in the Latino-majority region.

            So were those Trump Hispanic voters racist xenophobes? Doubtful. Probably they were overwhelmed by the number of people being admitted through asylum-on-demand, and they really wanted a change. They are my fellow US citizens, this is a Democracy, and I should listen to and respect them, irrespective of the fact that I voted for Kamala. Not only them, but all Americans.

            1. Wang Cores

              Re: Enslave humanity?

              Negative. Am a US Latino national looking for an out.

              I can also tell you as a "woke" Latino that the majority of latinos only vote Democrat out of an alliance of convenience for immigration and, frankly, welfare to abuse. There is no alignment on principle or a belief in plurality or diversity, just "what can you do for me?"

        3. Mike Pellatt

          Re: Enslave humanity?

          You've made the classic mistake of misunderstanding Democracy there.

          "Government of the people, by the people, for the people"

          If the outcome of a particular version of government claiming to be a democracy isn't the net benefit of the people (and that doesn't mean "a majority of the people") then it's demonstrably not a democracy.

          Not by that definition, anyways. Of course, even the Greeks had ways of redefining democracy, by excluding some people from their definition of "the people"

        4. Irongut Silver badge

          Re: Enslave humanity?

          The Democrats need to realise that American voters will not ever vote for a female President.

          They have proved that twice now by voting for the same mentally unstable rapist instead.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Clippy got there first

  4. kryptonaut
    Terminator

    Evil

    Of course it's easy to tell when an AI has been programmed for evil, as its eyes will glow red.

    1. lglethal Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Evil

      Hmmm, my computers Hard drive LED's are red. Does that mean it's being Evil right now?

      That certainly does explain my printer though, it's LEDs are red, and everytime I NEED to print a document it plays up...

      Thankfully no one would be thinking about putting critical systems under the control of these machines anytime soon, right...?

      1. khjohansen

        Re: Evil

        Pfft hasn't seen a red LED in dogs years - they're all "Master Race Blue" these days!

        1. that one in the corner Silver badge

          Re: Evil

          Ah, you mean where the restful red glow, with the occasional amber, that makes the flickering light on the machine room wall remind you of a cosy fireplace on a winter's evening, has been replaced by a searingly bright blue that burns your eyes, upsets your melatonin production until the lack of sleep reduces you to a mindless zombie.

          Simple progress or evil plan to control our thoughts?

          I'd be able to answer that, if only I could concentrate, just can't get the sleep.

        2. The Indomitable Gall

          Re: Evil

          This is all a plot to stop China seeing tech as lucky. All those red LEDs were making Chinese consumers buy up all the tech so there was nothing left for export...

          1. Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch Silver badge

            Re: Evil

            东方红。

          2. TRT

            Re: Evil

            Big Clive has an interesting discussion over the life span of red LEDs vs other types. It's all down to the thickness of the semiconductor layers apparently. Red LEDs last for hundreds of thousands of hours, whereas white and blue burn out far quicker.

            I bought an HDMI switcher a few years ago to sit under the TV back in the days when you got just the one or two inputs, and I had three different games consoles, a DVD player, a cable box and a computer. Set it all up nicely so that the kiddies could just press the button for the source they wanted, turned it on and... you couldn't see the TV screen for the glare from the big blue power LED. The input selection had a feeble red glow which didn't distract from the screen. Had to take the box apart and snip the power LED leads.

      2. GNU Enjoyer
        Trollface

        Re: Evil

        >my computers Hard drive LED's are red. Does that mean it's being Evil right now? >my printer though, it's LEDs are red

        Yes, those are running evil proprietary software that's doing evil things.

    2. BartyFartsLast Silver badge

      Re: Evil

      And runs 6502 code

      1. The Indomitable Gall

        Re: Evil

        That's just propaganda by the far right Speccy brigade against the Commies....

        1. Evil Scot

          Re: Evil

          Aha, the Spektr 48 of the cold war threat.

      2. Will Godfrey Silver badge
        Boffin

        Re: Evil

        Hey! You leave the 6502 alone! It was my first intro to assembler - real? programming (on the BBC Model B) and I won't have any wet-behind-the-ears numpty dissing it.

        {nor anyone one else, come to that}

        1. NXM Silver badge

          Re: Evil

          Change the graphics mode to text part way down a scan to save a bit of memory using a timed interrupt triggered by the new frame?

          Ha - take that and suck on my 6502 code, graphics chip!

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