back to article Financial watchdogs want to know what traders are talking about on WhatsApp

Authorities in the US and the UK are taking a keen interest in the contents of WhatsApp messages among bank employees and their associates in the financial services industry. The UK's Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) is set to probe sector workers' use of private messaging services as the watchdog increases scrutiny in line …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    LOL!

    In 2017, it fined Christopher Niehaus, a former investment banker, £37,198 for sharing confidential client information over WhatsApp.

    So a few minutes' worth of insider trading for one of these scumbags?

    1. Triggerfish

      Re: LOL!

      Cost of doing business.

  2. Freezus

    Question - how?

    How could the banks mentioned, let alone the FCA, ever get a proper view of the 'business' that's done on personal-device WhatsApp chats? Is there a legal mechanism (UK) that allows them to spot check?!

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Question - how?

      It doesn't have to - it just has to tell the banks to do it.

      If the law says, traders can't swap inside information - then the banks can't turn around and say "sorry they use Whatsapp, there is nothing we can do"

      1. DS999 Silver badge

        Re: Question - how?

        It isn't necessarily about inside info, it is about regulations that require preserving all communications for years. Insider trading is only one of the many potential issues that could come up where regulators might want to be able to refer to past communications.

        Anything from selling subprime mortgage backed securities to bitcoin futures, if it blows up in the face of investors they will want to be able to look back at what was done at the time. They always hang themselves with their words, just look at what the guys selling the mortgage backed securities that went to zero were saying when they were selling them - they knew they were screwing the buyers. If those conversations had been on Whatsapp instead of email, it could never have been proven.

      2. commonsense

        Re: Question - how?

        So what they do is subject us to "mandatory training" courses through the "it's a Friday afternoon and I am running the click down" portal where we click Next over and over and hope to pass the "assessment" at the end.

        Somehow that absolves then of any blame.

        1. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

          Re: Question - how?

          Yup. I used to work for a rather large WORLDwide COMmunications company that went bankrupt. The C-suite was doing all the dirty dealing, we peons knew nothing about it*, but we're the ones who had to attend months of ethics training after the fact. I now know that hiding data from investors can send me to prison, even though my job description had nothing to do with investor data. But at least the C suite got to spend some time incarcerated in the big house.

          *In fact, we were caught flat footed. I myself lost hundreds of thousands in uncashed stock options. I won't do details, too painful.

  3. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

    Disappearing messages

    And I assure you most of them will have turned on "Disappearing Messages" in WhatsApp, making it impossible to retrieve the conversation.

    Criminals are probably doing the same. I assure you we'll be hearing more about this feature in the future.

    1. Sgt_Oddball
      Trollface

      Re: Disappearing messages

      Yep they are. Pretty sure certain work meeting organisers have moved over to it...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Disappearing messages

      It really wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that Facebook/Meatus' [sic] idea of "disappearing messages" turned out to be "SET message_visibility = '0'" rather than actual deletion, with "SET message_visibility = '1'" available as a 'premium upgrade' option to certain agencies willing to hand over the necessary cash…

      1. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

        Re: Disappearing messages

        Every message has its own encryption key. When the message expires the encryption key is simply wiped, making it irretrievable without breaking the encryption (which is impossible).

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Disappearing messages

          Assuming every message and its key isn't copied to the mothership and stored decrypted there.

          If you didn't build whatsapp from source - you don't know what it does (and sometimes not even then)

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Disappearing messages

          Whatsapp said every message has its own encryption key. When the message expires they claim encryption key is simply wiped, making it irretrievable without breaking the encryption (which is impossible). But in reality, every message is stored in an easily searchable indexed database.

          FTFY.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Disappearing messages

            >But in reality, every message is stored in an easily searchable indexed database.

            No that would be illegal. They merely store "metadata", like the frequency and order of words in your message

    3. DS999 Silver badge

      Re: Disappearing messages

      The only problem is, that is illegal for their employer to knowingly allow. So if they can't get them to keep records of those conversations or stop using Whatsapp, their employer would be obligated to block Whatsapp on their network. That wouldn't stop them from using it outside the office, but at least the brokerage can say they were doing everything they could.

      1. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

        Re: Disappearing messages

        So we both agree it's pointless. The only remedy would be to fine and imprison brokers who communicate privately though back-channels.

  4. Eclectic Man Silver badge

    Nearly US$2 billion

    It is, to me, quite staggering that fines of nearly US$2 billion are thought to be 'not enough' to deter repetitions. With that sort of wealth around, surely only custodial sentences would actually be any sort of deterrent? But then people to whom a fine of $2 billion is not a deterrent really can afford the best lawyers.

  5. trevorde Silver badge

    What traders really talk about

    cocaine

    prostitutes

    champagne bars

    raves

    bonuses

    Lamborghinis

    football

    insider trading

    1. bazza Silver badge

      Re: What traders really talk about

      Well that's a sorry state of affairs. No chat these days about Porsche or Ferraris?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What traders really talk about

        I think Porsches are driven by hairdressers and Ferraris are for 2nd hand car dealers and owners of provincial carpet warehouses

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: What traders really talk about

            "Having driven both a Ferrari and a Lamborghini, I can say Ferraris are much nicer cars to drive."

            Fine that you have an opinion, but would you OWN either one?

            Samcrac seems to find pretty good deals on some that need repairs but you notice his "stepmom" drives a ex-police Ford Crown Vic.

    2. RegGuy1 Silver badge

      Re: What traders really talk about

      In that order?

  6. Sp1z

    Ah cool. Another reason for UK gov to want to ban encryption, when in fact the real reason bankers act with impunity is because they've been allowed to act with impunity (probably in exchange for back-handers).

    So is it now "think of the bankers!" as well as "children"?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      It's 'think of the banker's children'.'

    2. bazza Silver badge

      How about "Think of the victims of insider trading" which may well be yourself, probably unknowingly...

  7. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge

    Off channel comms

    In my day, we had to make shady deals on the golf course.

    Now you kids get off my lawn!

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Off channel comms

      Terribly inefficient in the sub-ms world of high frequency trading.

      Unless you played golf on the PC, but then there would be a competition for who could have the golf computer closest to the golf server

  8. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    Yes, of course they are. You’d be a useful fool to not realise it be so.

    FFS..... anyone would think that the UK's Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) and Uncle Sam’s Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) did not know that those sorts of traders have always been shady and crooked and likely to play dirty with no notice taken of stupid rules designed to prevent an unfair advantage to others. And high on Bolivian Marching Powder is no valid excuse if seeking to escape prosecution for dirty deeds done dirt cheap rendering fantastic gains at the expense of ...... well, there are never ever very many spectacular losses, are there, which is strange.

    Do you think such markets and casinos are rigged?

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