UK launches 'consultation' with EU over exclusion from science programs

The UK government has launched formal consultations with the EU over the failure to secure its inclusion in the EU's €95.5 billion ($97.6 billion) research funding program since the island nation left the world's richest trading bloc. Ministers said they wanted to end persistent delays to the UK's access to EU scientific …

[Anonymous Coward]

Reap what you sow

Wasn't this all part of the 'ready-made' deal with the EU' that Boris the 'Brave' bragged about?

Many of us predicted that the laws of unintended consequences would hit us hard w.r.t BREXIT but were shouted down...

The brain drain will be next, as will lots of funding for research at top UK Universities.

[jmch]

Re: Reap what you sow

But...but... surely now that the riches are flowing into an independent Britain, it can afford to pay for it's own research without needing EU funding......

....right????

[VoiceOfTruth]

Re: Reap what you sow

EU funding: we were a net contributor to the EU. Any "EU funding" that came to the UK was mostly British money put through the EU organ grinder and bureaucracy.

[Joe W]

Re: Reap what you sow

Oh, right. So you can now spend all that money on your own scientific programs and the NHS. That's great news! Congrats on that one. So stop complaining and get to that!

[Warm Braw]

Re: Reap what you sow

Funny how it was only when we left, despite being a net contributor, that taxes went up to their highest ever proportion of GDP.

[codejunky]

Re: Reap what you sow

@Warm Braw

"Funny how it was only when we left, despite being a net contributor, that taxes went up to their highest ever proportion of GDP."

Almost as if there was a massive blow out of spending when the gov put a large chunk of the economy on hold while panicking over a virus. And the rise in the so called 'divorce bill' where the UK now must pay more for the EU pensions because we were in it.

[Warm Braw]

Re: Reap what you sow

Except the scheduled NI increase was supposed to pay for the Social Care policy that has been promised for years and never delivered and the rise in Corporation Tax doesn't take effect until the next financial year. The non-indexation of the personal allowance will soak up even more of GDP than planned as inflation has soared way beyond expected levels.

Most of the coronavirus spending has come from borrowing so far, not taxation. Though it will no doubt feed through into taxation shortly.

The real issue, unfortunately, is the sluggish recovery of GDP - even the Tory leadership candidates would agree with that. And it's about to slump further.

[codejunky]

Re: Reap what you sow

@Warm Braw

"Except the scheduled NI increase was supposed to pay for the Social Care policy that has been promised for years and never delivered"

I can believe that. I am not a fan of rising tax either but it does feed into your comment-

"Most of the coronavirus spending has come from borrowing so far, not taxation. Though it will no doubt feed through into taxation shortly."

"The real issue, unfortunately, is the sluggish recovery of GDP - even the Tory leadership candidates would agree with that. And it's about to slump further."

Probably. Shutting down the economy (and the world doing similar) while printing money and spending like a drunken sailor will do that. We couldnt even manage to get austerity after the last recession.

[MyffyW]

Re: Reap what you sow

OK - most of the UK inflation is not due to:

- Printing money (though we have done quite a bit of of that, you will note we've stopped)

- High Taxes (that's deflationary)

- People working from home (please play nicely with the other public servants, Jacob)

- The economy restarting after COVID (although I'll concede that probably has made money chase scarce goods)

It is largely due to:

1) The absolutely effing enormous jump in the cost of fossil fuels after a bare-chested, oil-soaked dictator decided to do a reverse-Barbarossa. This is the big one.

2) The slide of the pound in relation to most currencies that matter, which started, curiously enough just as soon as the money-markets realised just shy of 50% of the UK electorate had lost their marbles

[codejunky]

Re: Reap what you sow

@MyffyW

"OK - most of the UK inflation is not due to"

That is a difficult one as what is causing the most inflation or what proportions is due to what isnt known even by the central bankers. However-

"- Printing money (though we have done quite a bit of of that, you will note we've stopped)"

Is inflationary. It is. Its the point of printing it out beyond productivity. The value of the money declines as its availability increases without subsequent productivity. Even stopping isnt reversing.

"- High Taxes (that's deflationary)"

Yup.

"- People working from home (please play nicely with the other public servants, Jacob)"

Not sure what effect that would have. I am sure it has some but I dont know how it balances.

"- The economy restarting after COVID (although I'll concede that probably has made money chase scarce goods)"

Pent up demand for scarce goods. Add this to the flood of printed money and its not good.

"1) The absolutely effing enormous jump in the cost of fossil fuels after a bare-chested, oil-soaked dictator decided to do a reverse-Barbarossa. This is the big one."

Yup. This has hit food as well. Yes this is a biggie.

"2) The slide of the pound in relation to most currencies that matter, which started, curiously enough just as soon as the money-markets realised just shy of 50% of the UK electorate had lost their marbles"

Eh? The Euro was below parity with the USD at one point recently and isnt much above it now. USD is the global currency and the GBP isnt that bad. Depending on the flavour of ECB suicide it could get a lot worse.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Reap what you sow

As a Brit living in Aus, my UK GBP savings crashed in value relative to the AUD immediately after the referendum result was known. Dropped from about 2:1 to about 1.7:1.

It hasn't recovered since. Still only at about 1.74:1. So yes, the referendum had a massive impact on the value of the pound.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Reap what you sow

Bizarre that some people feel the need to down vote reporting of a fact.

[tip pc]

Re: Reap what you sow

Bizarre that some people feel the need to down vote reporting of a fact.

some peoples facts are more factual than others.

perhaps those stated facts are more fanatical than factual.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Reap what you sow

If you don't believe the facts stated, feel free to check any cash conversion site to see the precipitous drop in value minutes after the referendum result as well as the current rate.

As someone who was transferring cash at the time, it was more than an abstract fact. For every 100 pounds transferred, I got 30 Australian dollars less the day after the referendum than I did the day before.

[gandalfcn]

Re: Reap what you sow

codejunky? It has a habit.

[codejunky]

Re: Reap what you sow

@gandalfcn

"codejunky? It has a habit."

Dumbass strikes again, I didnt downvote. I believe they probably got less AUD the day after than the day before the vote.

Between being AC and it not relating to what I said I ignored the comment but I can believe the AC.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Reap what you sow

"Dumbass strikes again"

And a double dumbass on you?

[Loyal Commenter]

Re: Reap what you sow

Looks like you triggered him (and I say "him" and not "it" because that individual is unquestionably male, from the viewpoints expressed in some of his past posts, including that one which got removed for calling a woman a "bitch").

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Reap what you sow

Biologically male, but identifies as a muppet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Reap what you sow

I am confused. Why, when talking about the strength of the pound are you comparing the Euro to the USD? Wouldn't it make more sense comparing the Pound to the Euro?

The day before the referendum, a Pound would buy you 1.3 Euro. Immediately after the referendum, it dropped down to 1.15. At the moment, 1 pound will buy you 1.17 Euro. At times between then and now, it sunk as low as 1.06.

So what you are saying is that the Euro is apparently an incredibly weak currency, yet the pound will still buy you less of this (allegedly) weak currency than it did the day before the referendum.

Incidentally, there are 2 reasons why the USD is currently stronger against the Euro (and almost every other currency):

1. Investors are fleeing risky currencies, especially the Yuan and going back the USD, which is considered a safe haven when times are uncertain.

2. The Fed raised interest rates faster and harder than most other central banks, pushing the currency higher.

Back in 2012/13, the Australian dollar reached parity with the USD. 1 AUD would buy you more than 1 USD, up to as much as 1.05. At the moment it will only buy you about 69 US cents. That has bugger all to do with the AUDs rate against the pound, which is substantially higher now than it was before the referendum.

[Justthefacts]

Re: Reap what you sow

In 2014-2016, GBP/EUR ramped up anomalously high* at 1.3, and caused massive problems for us as exporter companies. We were massively undercut at that level, many companies (including mine) had experienced 50% drop in order flow due to high exchange rate, and would likely have gone out of business had it continued even a year longer.

During the period 2009-2013, GBP/EUR traded in the range 1.10-1.20, which was comfortable equilibrium.

It crashed in 2008 from Highs around 1.50, for rather obvious reasons: the Global Financial Crisis particular hit the U.K. which was dependent for much of its strength on Financial Services. Neither exchange rate nor country have recovered since 2008, because most of the “wealth” we had in 2008 was fictional.

If you want to go back to GBP/EUR of 1.3, that would be incredibly painful for the U.K. I’m not saying it won’t happen, but the mechanism could only be: crash in eurozone means that eurozone workers are prepared to work for peanuts. Then U.K. gets undercut again, and we either work for peanuts too, or have high unemployment. In other words, contagion of Eurozone Depression. I wouldn’t look forward to that, and neither should you.

[bregister]

Re: Reap what you sow

I read in the Economist that China cut exporting refined oil earlier this year by 50%, could that be #3? Is the timing of the cut just very odd as well? Apparently the reason is for green/climate something.

[Nifty]

Re: Reap what you sow

"High Taxes (that's deflationary)"

High taxes mean more public money chasing resources. At best inflation-neutral. The more insidious issue with hig taxation is it lowers industrial productivity, taking UK privately supplied goods and services off the market.

[abstract]

Re: Reap what you sow

High taxes impact demand and investment. Impacted demand impacts prices ...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/howardgleckman/2022/06/02/should-congress-raise-taxes-to-fight-inflation/?sh=3e448bb0424b

[abstract]

have a look to 2012 oil prices

How come you pay your fuel higher than a decade ago when oil prices were the same or higher than now?

The idiocracies master their people with TV and other propaganda mainstreams.

[Lars]

Re: Reap what you sow

@codejunky

Hard life codejunky, who do you suggest paid British pensions when you left the EU.

But as I am sure you know it's more than just pensions and it was all agreed upon years ago.

Stop whining, some day father Christmas will bring you all those Brexit gifts.

All about this annoys me as it's so damned stupid and unnecessary but I would still try to point out that all this idiocy took place with a Tory government in place and it seems to just get madder by the day.

[codejunky]

Re: Reap what you sow

@Lars

"Hard life codejunky, who do you suggest paid British pensions when you left the EU."

British pensions? This is EU pensions because we were in the EU project.

"But as I am sure you know it's more than just pensions and it was all agreed upon years ago."

We could have negotiated for brexit instead of attempted BINO but that would have upset you guys to much.

"Stop whining, some day father Christmas will bring you all those Brexit gifts."

Your kidding. Delivered very quickly. Almost right away, but I am sure you forgot that.

[Nick Ryan]

Re: Reap what you sow

Absolutely no benefits have come from brexit apart from for a very privileged few... i.e. disaster capitalists, and they have already cached in and made their short term profits. For everyone else it has been the predicted disaster that it was always and only ever could be.

We always got more out from the EU than we ever put in. The collapse in our economy, even adjusted for covid, has been much higher than the total paid to the EU over the entire time the UK was a member. That we have now hit a world recession after this has made the situation worse.

Add in the rampant corruption and incompetence from your beloved Tory party and the UK is rapidly heading for a total collapse where short term money making and greed trump anything else. The energy company greed is one of these results, the transport infrastructure is another, the destruction of the UK's research and university system is underway and what little there is of a government are "on holiday". Again.

[codejunky]

Re: Reap what you sow

@Nick Ryan

"Absolutely no benefits have come from brexit apart from for a very privileged few"

Such as all those who got vaccinated while the EU searched for its arse with both hands and a map?

"For everyone else it has been the predicted disaster that it was always and only ever could be."

The predicted disaster of a recession as soon as the leave vote is in... fail. Ah but it will when we sign art50... fail. The banks will all leave... fail. London wont be the global financial centre of Europe... fail. The FUD was exposed and not much of a disaster. Then we look over at the EU and yeah we see disaster.

"We always got more out from the EU than we ever put in"

Eh? Bought more yeah but got more... questionable.

"The collapse in our economy, even adjusted for covid, has been much higher than the total paid to the EU over the entire time the UK was a member."

Adjusted for covid how? It buggered and continues to bugger economies around the world. As bad as the UK situation looks its still better than the EU proper.

"Add in the rampant corruption and incompetence from your beloved Tory party"

Erm, beloved? Eh? When?

"The energy company greed is one of these results"

What greed? You may have noticed the GLOBAL shortage where Germany is trying to figure out how to keep the lights on due to a certain invasion going on?

[MJI]

Re: Reap what you sow

>> Such as all those who got vaccinated while the EU searched for its arse with both hands and a map?

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-brexit-did-not-speed-up-uk-vaccine-authorisation

[codejunky]

Re: Reap what you sow

@MJI

I said- "Such as all those who got vaccinated while the EU searched for its arse with both hands and a map?"

And you point to just authorisation?- "https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/"

The UK ordered vaccine independently. There is no reason beyond believing in UK superiority to think the UK would have done that had we remained. All member countries agreed to this consolidated approach which includes approval and so only through believing in UK superiority could anyone believe we wouldnt have waited for the EU to approve the vaccine.

That last point being a problem for ROI who could only watch as NI got vaccinated and they couldnt. A minister suggesting driving over the border and bringing some vaccine over was told NO by the EU.

The problem in the EU was resolved when members abandoned the joint approach and even Germany breaking its agreement to the consolidated negotiations and ordering themselves.

100% the UK benefited from brexit when it comes to the covid vaccine. To believe otherwise is to believe in a benevolent EU who wouldnt lie and steal as they did in reality, but also in UK supremacy that our government is somehow better than every member gov and the EU gov. I certainly dont believe in that.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Reap what you sow

Farage has already admitted Brexit has failed. So Brexiteers shouldn't feel the need to participate in all this absurd straw-clutching, trying to justify this failed project. It must be exhausting. Take a break.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Reap what you sow

I’d actually be keen to know more detail about the UK Vaccine Taskforce.

I’d like to hope feted (Venture Capitalist) Kate Bingham - who was it’s initial chair - did not have. Strategy of just slap a wad down on the table - indeed many tables - regardless of the cost to fuck over anyone else.

That’s belatedly what happened with PPE.

How the UK Government behaved over cancelling Valneva’s supply contract was shameful.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Reap what you sow

What greed? You may have noticed the GLOBAL shortage where Germany is trying to figure out how to keep the lights on due to a certain invasion going on?

'Renewable' energy companies have been making money hand over fist. The 'global' energy crisis hasn't really affected their costs, just massively increased the profits they can make from inflating their electricity price.

And the 'global' gas shortage is also largely due to the EU's own decisions. Germany could solve it's gas crisis in very short order by simply allowing NordStream 2 to operate. Stop the self-sanctioning, and there'd be no 'energy crisis'. Especially given we seem to be sanctioning ourselves so our 'ally' can keep shelling Europe's largest nuclear power plant.

And then there's carp like this, as ever from the clueless Bbc-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62570900

The UK is expected to take delivery of a shipment of gas all the way from Australia next week, as the pressure on European energy supplies grows.

Which will be making a lot of money for someone. UK doesn't really need Aussie LNG, but Germany is very desperate and does.. But doesn't have it's own LNG terminals. Which is also a potential trade war lever. So if the EU wants to continue trying to punish the UK, we could simply impose an export ban on gas.

Sanctions work, right?

[codejunky]

Re: Reap what you sow

@Jellied Eel

Just so you know where the thumb up comes from.

[gandalfcn]

Re: Reap what you sow

Aaaah, codejunky strikes with more junk!

[codejunky]

Re: Reap what you sow

@gandalfcn

"Aaaah, codejunky strikes with more junk!"

I take by your lack of response you dont actually dispute any of the comment and just miss me? Are you the pet troll thats been following from the AC?

[nintendoeats]

Re: Reap what you sow

That claim is in direct contradiction to the fact that the UK is seeking a funding program in association with the EU. If they got less than they put in as part of the EU, then this whole thing would be moot.

[VoiceOfTruth]

Re: Reap what you sow

It is not a claim. It is a fact that the UK was a net contributor to the EU.

You are making the mistake that many do when they look at anything to do with the EU. You look at one aspect only, and not the whole. No doubt this will be part of some bargaining re fisheries, and so on.

[codejunky]

Re: Reap what you sow

@VoiceOfTruth

"No doubt this will be part of some bargaining re fisheries, and so on."

I assume a continuation of their efforts to anex NI. But could just be a continual branch to hit us with as long as we entertain hopes of continuing research with them.

The EU would shoot their own foot off as long as the blood ruined our shoes

[sabroni]

Re: I assume a continuation of their efforts to anex NI

Where is the border supposed to go then smartarse? Bojo promised the Irish no border on the island, he promised the Unionists no border in the sea. So how exactly was this magic act of leaving the EU supposed to fucking work?

[codejunky]

Re: I assume a continuation of their efforts to anex NI

@sabroni

"Where is the border supposed to go then smartarse?"

Look at my comment history I am very consistent on this, in Ireland. In fact you will notice that nobody yet has managed to explain how the EU's problem which is the border (they want) is our problem.

"Bojo promised the Irish no border on the island, he promised the Unionists no border in the sea."

So we remove the one from the sea, thats one solved. Then we dont apply a hard border in Ireland, and the other is solved. If the EU wants to make a border thats the EU doing it if they really want to. Aint our problem. At no point is this difficult.

[ClockworkOwl]

Re: I assume a continuation of their efforts to anex NI

I'm guessing you haven't heard of the Good Friday agreement, which probably indicates the level of your true ignorance on matters of border politics...

[codejunky]

Re: I assume a continuation of their efforts to anex NI

@ClockworkOwl

"I'm guessing you haven't heard of the Good Friday agreement, which probably indicates the level of your true ignorance on matters of border politics..."

Oh the burn, I am in agony. Mostly for how stupid your comment is but anyway. The GFA does not state we cannot have a border. Also even if you wish to read it as not allowing a hard border, its the EU's problem not the UK's.

The UK (assuming its not changed its position) doesnt want a hard border therefore it is the other side who either wants or not a border, and the EU does. The EU wants a border. And so either ROI resolve their own issue... or not, we dont care, it aint the UK's problem.

[Richard 12]

Re: I assume a continuation of their efforts to anex NI

If there is no border between the UK and the EU, and no freedom of movement and no common market between them, a few things happen:

1) Mass illegal migration across said border - no checks, see.

2) Smuggling becomes the major industry in NI - no checks, see.

None of the nations involved would accept that situation. The EU and Ireland would demand arbitration, and the UK would pay dearly.

That would be why.

Now, if the UK rejoined the common market, the problem would be solved. That's probably the only way to solve it, in fact.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I assume a continuation of their efforts to anex NI

If we could join the "common market", like we did in the 1970's, then I think many people would accept that.

But the EU is not just a common market any more, and has not been for almost the entire time since we joined. It's on a path that will lead to a federated Europe with most of the control coming from Berlin and Paris. I reacon if we had stayed in the EU, the UK would have become rather like Texas is to the USA.

But the issue with Horizon Europe should be decoupled from the EU. It was and is not an EU program, and the UK is still a full member, so feels we ought to get some of the work. It is the EU that is linking them together.

[stungebag]

Re: I assume a continuation of their efforts to anex NI

That's the first dab on my cliche bingo card!

[Binraider]

Re: I assume a continuation of their efforts to anex NI

Is a Federated Europe a bad thing? Large trading bloc, broadly comparable moral and cultural histories, strong geopolitical motivations for alliances; and a very strong rationale for a unified military rather bit-parts under the auspices of NATO.

For those that read the history books (because no-one is left alive that experienced it) a key issue in the Liberals-versus-the Tories back around the turn of the century was the design and construct of the British Empire.

The liberals favoured a Federated British Empire - India, Canada, Aus, etc. being part of a larger and global state.

The Tories were more interested in putting the boot on our Dominions and Colonies to extract cash from them. Ergo, the latter buggered off and quite rightly so.

Trouble is, it's hard for UK itself to bugger off from the Tories.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I assume a continuation of their efforts to anex NI

Incorrect.

The EU could put the border between the Irish Republic and the rest of the EU, in the same way as the current border splits the UK. Except the border between the Irish Republic and the rest of the EU is already an international border (unlike the internal UK border through the Irish Sea).

And of course, when the EU thought that there might be a 'no-deal' scenario, the EU bureaucracy made plans to do exactly that.

[codejunky]

Re: I assume a continuation of their efforts to anex NI

@Richard 12

"1) Mass illegal migration across said border - no checks, see."

Damn. So your saying we had serious illegal immigration in Ireland while we were in the EU? Aka no different to what we had before.

"2) Smuggling becomes the major industry in NI - no checks, see."

Aka as it was before! Oh no the doom!!!

"None of the nations involved would accept that situation. The EU and Ireland would demand arbitration, and the UK would pay dearly."

So the EU would fuck up Ireland because of a personal grudge? Damn, almost like they are childish and its a good job we got out.

"Now, if the UK rejoined the common market, the problem would be solved. That's probably the only way to solve it, in fact."

Thats just bull. The EU could easily put a border between ROI and the EU. It was even considered assuming the UK held the line in negotiation. If the EU cant manage to handle something like this then how can they be taken seriously in the world?